triad pairs examples?
Steve Knight
I'm working on triad pairs now, partially to improve my ear &
partially to improve my chops. It's fun to practice; but, it
definitely feels like a "technical exercise" at this point more than a
musical statement. Making actual music with this approach is still a
long ways off for me. Can anyone recommend some recordings where a
musician is using triad pairs in their improvisation? I've heard the
samples from the Hal Crook "How To Improvise" book, but those are
pretty short.
Thanks,
SK
Loki's Dad
Kurt Rosenwinkel : lots of examples on east coast love affair and
intuit
drthoma...@gmail.com
Wes Montgomery uses them a lot. Transcribe almost any of his octave
solos over a vamp and you'll find some triad pair licks. He doesn't
always play the triad pair verbatim, but you can hear how he uses
triad pairs and sequences in thirds to organize his solos over vamps.
andy-uk
playing thematically. This simple idea can generate many many
combinations.
tom walls
Okay, and I've got V and VI triads over a IMaj7. What else you got?
Paul K
I'm with you on how hard it is to use these musically. One obvious thing that
escaped me completely until a sax player I play with showed me is to not just
play the triads in a pair as 3 notes (eg CEG DF#A EGC F#AD etc) but to
instead run longer patterns that cover more than one octave. For example an
"ascending-descending" pattern might start
CEGce f#dAF#D Gcegc ....
etc. then do these not linearly, eg
CGEec f#AdDF# ....
If you get good at this then playing in say 8th notes gives you groups of 5,
which give you some interesting rhythmic tension. the longer words also give
it less of a "playing pattern feel".
This is just theoretical for me. I can do a little of this in practice, but I
havent gotten this out on the bandstand.
Paul K
--
http://www.youtube.com/TopologyPaul
http://www.soundclick.com/paulkirk
Joey Goldstein
Can you cite some specific examples Tom?
The only time I've been aware of Wes playing any type of a triad pair
idea is when he plays aug triads moving up the neck in whole steps, and
I have my doubts as to whether he was thinking in terms of the pair of
aug triads vs just playing a harmonized wt scale.
I'm not saying that Wes didn't use triad pairs.
Just that I've never noticed him doing that.
Whoever mentioned Kurt Rosenwinkel using them on Intuit is right on the
money I think though.
Now, I have yet to lift any of those solos on Inuit but he definitely
does a whole bunch of triad arpeggiation in his lines.
Sometimes I'm not sure if he's just running through a scale, like the
mel min scale, or whether he's doing triad pairs.
Some of his lines, and chords too, remind me of some of the sounds I
encountered when studying with Charlie Banacos.
The example that Charlie cited was McCoy's recording of Passion Dance on
The Real McCoy. I had to lift his solo as part of my lessons with CB.
The main theme of the head is based on Ebmaj & Fmaj over F7sus4.
So is much of his solo.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Joey Goldstein
Hmm.
Walt Weiskopf advocates that approach in his book, as I recall. But I
only glanced it a couple of times in a music store.
He use the pairs of triads to imply a key most of the time and his whole
book is based on 2 maj triads a whole step apart, as I recall. And 2 maj
triads a whole step apart is seen by many as being an unambiguous way to
imply a key. [I don't really see "keys" that way myself though.]
I believe he advocates superimposing that key feeling over the
prevailing key for a bi-tonal effect.
Charlie's approach to triad pairs, as I understood it, was different.
He seemed to pick pairs of triads whose tones were all "chord-sound" on
the chord-of-the-moment.
Chord-sound is the sum of all chord tones plus any extensions that fit
vertically on that chord.
Eg. Chord-sound on Cmaj7 would be C E G B D F# and A.
[I tend to think of D# and A# as also having a role as chord-sound on
this chord, but #9 and #13 are fairly "exotic" choices for extensions on
maj7 chords in most circles.]
So, over Cmaj7, CB would advocate using mutually exclusive pairs of
triads made up of the tones of the C lydian scale. Eg. C & D, D & Em, Em
& F#dim, F#dim & G, G & Am, Am & Bm, Bm & C.
So, usually the idea is that the 2 triads used should not contain any
avoid-notes on the chord-of-the-moment.
But sometimes he would violate that notion too.
Eg.
My first lesson on triad pairs with him involved using Eb & F on F7, and
the Eb triad contain the avoid-note Bb. But then he used Passion Dance
as a way of getting me more familiar with that sound, so it became clear
that he was really talking about using these 2 triads on F7sus4 or F11,
not F7 per se.
But we also did a lesson on using C & Db on a Cmaj7 or C7 chord, so
that's got 3 avoid notes in that relationship.
I think ultimately, after you gain facility with these sounds they are
just available to use as interesting kaleidoscopic colours. And if your
lines are interesting enough you can often get away with superimposing
them over all sorts of stuff that shouldn't "work".
I have some pdfs I can post to my web site if anyone's interested.
One of them is a summary of all the possible ways to combine pairs of
the regular tertian triads (i.e. maj, min, dim and aug) and gives
suggestions as to what chords to use the various triad-pairs over.
The others are all basically lines I wrote as practise over standard
changes of various tunes. Most of these combine the triad pairs concept
with the other main thing i worked on with CB which had to do with
superimposing lines based on 7th chords over some other 7th chord (eg.
playing a line that outlines Cmaj7 over Fmaj7, etc.).
Let me know.
Dan Adler
Check out Bergonzi's "Hexatonics" - basically, pentatonics with an
extra tone set up as triad pairs. Play along and lots of examples
ibid.
Joey Goldstein
There are obviously all sorts of permutations that one can do to the
note order of the 2 triads.
Essentially we're talking about hexatonic (6-tone) scales because the
two triads used are not supposed to have any common tones.
Charlie cautioned me against just running them as scales though. He
thought that the best thing to do was to keep finding ways to cycle back
and forth from the sound of one triad to the other which might not come
out if you're just thinking in terms of the scale.
Still, many of his exercises did amount to treating these tones as a
6-tone scale.
His basic exercises for gaining facility with a pair of triads was as
follows:
Fmaj & Gmaj
Arpeggiate up both triads starting with root position, then 1st
inversion then 2nd inversion. Then reverse.
Rt. Pos 1st Inv 2nd Inv Rt. Pos
F A C, G B D |A C F, B D G |C F A, D G B |F A C
2nd Inv 1st Inv Rt. Pos
F A C |D G B, C F A |B D G, A C F |G B D, F A C
Ascend through the F triad and descend through the G triad.
Rt. Pos 1st Inv 2nd Inv Rt. Pos
F A C, D B G |A C F, G D B |C F A, B G D |F A C
2nd Inv 1st Inv Rt. Pos
F A C |B G D, C F A |G D B, A C F |D B G, F A C
Descend through the F triad and ascend through the G triad.
Rt. Pos 1st Inv 2nd Inv Rt. Pos
C A F, G B D |F C A, B D G |A F C, D G B| C A F
2nd Inv 1st Inv Rt. Pos
C A F |D G B, A F C| B D G, F C A |G B D, B G D| C A F
The obvious rhythm to practise these patterns with is triplets, but they
work well in duple rhythms like 1/8s and 1/16s too.
Then we would do pairs of notes where each note in the pair came from
one of the two triads.
F A, G B| A C, B D| C F, D G| F A
F A |D G, C F| B D, A C| G B, F A
and
F A, B G| A C, D B| etc. (i.e. Ascend through the 1st two notes and
descend through the next two notes.)
and
A F, G B| C A, B D| etc. (i.e. Descend through the 1st two notes and
ascend through the next two notes.)
and
A F, B G| C A, D B| etc. (i.e. Descend through the 1st two notes and
descend through the next two notes.)
Then
F C, G D| A F, B G| C A, D B| F C
F C |D B, C A| B G, A F| G D, F C
and
F C, D G| etc.
and
C F, G D| etc.
and
F C, D G| etc.
Then we'd do pairs of notes in which each of the two notes came from
both triads.
F G, G A, A B, B C, C D, D F, F G
F G, D F, C D, B C, A B, G A, F G
and
F G, A G, A B, C B, etc.
and
G F, G A, B A, B C, etc.
and
G F, A G, B A, C B, etc.
Then
F B, G C, A D, B F, C G, D A, F B
etc.
and
F B, C G, A D, F B, etc.
and
B F, G C, D A, B F, etc.
and
F B, C G, D A, F B, etc.
Then
F D, G F, A G, B A, C B, D C, F D
etc.
We would also do other manipulations with the tones of this hexatonic
scale that amounted to what he called "non-tertian-triads", i.e. triads
that are not built in thirds.
For instance...
This scale is: F G A B C D F
We would take 3 tones of the scale, eg. G A B and treat it as if it was
a triad. Initial Pos is G A B. "1st Rotation" is A B G. and "2nd
Rotation" is B G A.
We would juxtapose that triad with a triad made up of the remaining 3
tones of the scale, C D F which rotates to D F C and F C D.
This makes for patterns like this:
G A B, F C D| A B G, C D F| B G A, D F C| G A B
etc.
And all of this stuff, as hard as it is to assimilate, is just the tip
of the iceberg if you really want to explore the possibilities of this
technique.
Note: All of the above patterns will work over the following chords:
G7sus4, Dm7, Fmaj7, F7, B7alt
Try them also over Db7 when it's functioning as SubV7 in C.
Also not too bad over Bm7b5.
Jerry Bergonzi's book Hexatonics is probably the best source out there
for more information on these techniques.
jseaberry
I would greatly appreciate seeing your PDF's, Sir.
Paul K
In all these examples you seem to alternate 3 (or 2) note fragments from one
triad and the other. What about 4 or 5 or 6 etc fragment from one triad before
switching to the other? is that considered not part of the concept?
Does this work best in a situation when the harmony is largely static? or as
a "going outside" method over changes?
and, having shedded this with (CB pushing you, I assume) did this stick? Do
you hear enough of this to improvise comfortably with these ideas now that a
few years have gone by?
ScotGormley
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is a great discussion, guys. Thanks for sharing. My buddy Tim
Cummiskey has been using a lot of triad pair material in his playing
for a several years, and he studied with Charlie B, too. It definitely
makes for a more angular, modern sound, and can be a real chop
workout--as the fingerings are not always that guitar friendly. I
think Joey is right on the money when he mentions cycling between the
triads instead of viewing the pairs a scale.
Steve Knight
> mel min scale, or whether he's doing triad pairs.
I wasn't used to the sound of triad pairs. I had thought he was
running a scale, too. I'm familiar with that approach. Now I can hear
that he could be thinking triad pairs.
> The example that Charlie cited was McCoy's recording of Passion Dance on
> The Real McCoy. I had to lift his solo as part of my lessons with CB.
Great example. I can definitely hear the triad pairs there.
> The main theme of the head is based on Ebmaj & Fmaj over F7sus4.
> So is much of his solo.
Ah, not F7, but F7sus4. That's why I don't mind the Eb triad against
the chord. I had read that using major triads a whole step apart is a
good place to start (probably from one of your previous posts, Joey--
thank you), but didn't like the sound (or wasn't use to it) when
playing F & G triads over a G7. I much prefer the sound of playing G &
A over G7. I'll give the F & G another shot over a G7sus. Obviously
it sounds great when McCoy Tyner is playing it!
SK
Steve Knight
> extra tone set up as triad pairs. Play along and lots of examples
> ibid.
>
> -Danhttp://danadler.com
Thank you for the tip, Dan. I actually looked at some excerpts from
this book last night on Bruce Saunders' website. My take on the book
was that it looked great, but was a bit too advanced for me now. Just
working on playing two triads in up/up, up/down, down/up, down/down
sequences up and across the neck is keeping me busy for now. I will
probably order the book eventually.
SK
Steve Knight
>
> I have some pdfs I can post to my web site if anyone's interested.
>
I'm definitely interested, Joey. Thank you for what you've posted so
far, too.
SK
Steve Knight
> I'm with you on how hard it is to use these musically. One obvious thing that
> escaped me completely until a sax player I play with showed me is to not just
> play the triads in a pair as 3 notes (eg CEG DF#A EGC F#AD etc) but to
> instead run longer patterns that cover more than one octave. For example an
> "ascending-descending" pattern might start
> CEGce f#dAF#D Gcegc ....
>
> etc. then do these not linearly, eg
> CGEec f#AdDF# ....
>
> If you get good at this then playing in say 8th notes gives you groups of 5,
> which give you some interesting rhythmic tension. the longer words also give
> it less of a "playing pattern feel".
Thanks for the tip. I'll definitely try this approach next before
moving on to different triads.
>
> This is just theoretical for me. I can do a little of this in practice, but I
> havent gotten this out on the bandstand.
They're tough to play, even just around the house. I hope to
ultimately make this approach sort of a warm-up and see if it comes
out in my playing eventually, rather than woodshedding a triad pair
"lick" that I force into a couple of tunes on the bandstand.
SK
Loki's Dad
Hey Joey
I have transcribed much of intuit and east coast love affair , and of
course Kurt uses all kinds of devices including triads and seventh
chord arpeggio patterns ,but he definitely plays many specific triad
pair lines. His favorite seems to be two major triads a whole step
apart.
Joey Goldstein
>
> I would greatly appreciate seeing your PDF's, Sir.
OK. Here it is.
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/TriadPairsStuff.zip>
Joey Goldstein
>
> Joey,
>
> In all these examples you seem to alternate 3 (or 2) note fragments from one
> triad and the other. What about 4 or 5 or 6 etc fragment from one triad before
> switching to the other? is that considered not part of the concept?
Well, a triad only has 3 tones.
But like I said earlier the exercises that I posted are just the tip of
the iceberg. There's all sorts of other stuff you might do with this
idea too.
One thing I like to do is to go through both triads as I keep a
direction going, either ascending or descending.
Eg.
The following line ascends from a low G, 6th str, 3rd fret, through a G
triad then F then G, ascending all the way so that it ends on the 1st
string 7th fret:
G B D F A C D G B
> Does this work best in a situation when the harmony is largely static?
In my experience this is generally true.
You need enough time to iterate at least 2 tones of each triad or the
listener won't be ale to discern that you're using an effect based on
two triads.
> or as
> a "going outside" method over changes?
Well it depends on the harmonic rhythm of the tune.
On many IIm7-V7-I (or Im) progressions you can effectively ignore the
V7 chord or the IIm7 chord. That can often give you enough time to
iterate a triad pair idea over one or the other chord.
Etc.
> and, having shedded this with (CB pushing you, I assume) did this stick?
Not as much as I would have hope for for the amount of work I've put
into it. I still work on this stuff every time I get around to
practising though so there's still hope. lol
> Do
> you hear enough of this to improvise comfortably with these ideas now that a
> few years have gone by?
In some ways, on some changes on some tunes, on some nights, yes.
I've got a few triad pair types and patterns from within those types
that I've worked real hard on. (I'm especially fond of the triad pairs
that can be extracted from the diminished scale.)
I'm embarrassed to admit it but a lot of what I do in this regard is
basically regurgitating things I've practised, especially when I'm
trying to play fast.
But every once in a while I do put things together in a way that I have
not done before, and to me, that's what improvising is. The trick is to
not play it unless you're actually hearing it. I.e. Just knowing that it
will "work" is not really enough.
And the Catch 22 here is that you can't learn to hear this stuff unless
you work your ass off at it.
hw
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:6697d$4b9af188$adceee6a$24...@PRIMUS.CA...
> tomb...@jhu.edu wrote:
>> Wes Montgomery uses them a lot. Transcribe almost any of his octave
>> solos over a vamp and you'll find some triad pair licks. He doesn't
>> always play the triad pair verbatim, but you can hear how he uses
>> triad pairs and sequences in thirds to organize his solos over vamps.
>>
>
> Can you cite some specific examples Tom?
> The only time I've been aware of Wes playing any type of a triad pair idea
> is when he plays aug triads moving up the neck in whole steps, and I have
> my doubts as to whether he was thinking in terms of the pair of aug triads
> vs just playing a harmonized wt scale.
>
> I'm not saying that Wes didn't use triad pairs.
> Just that I've never noticed him doing that.
>
> --
> Joey Goldstein
it was one of his favourite devices. for example in the third bar of the
third chorus of four on six he plays f-triad, c-triad and bb-triad over Gm7.
andy-uk
lol...not much.. tritone subs .... also I have developed a little
method that uses three adjacent strings like using the E,B,and G
string only and it allows me to move around the neck.
chrisZ
Bruce Saunders has a great lesson for using triad pairs over
diminished chords on his web site.
Also check out George Garzone's DVD triadic chromatic approach. pretty
heavy stuff but worth a look.
Chris Crocco is a guitar player who utilizes this approach to the max.
Chris
tom walls
>
> I have some pdfs I can post to my web site if anyone's interested.
>
Please do(even though my physical therapist has told me NO playing
this week).
Paul K
> Paul K wrote:
>>
>> Joey,
>>
>> In all these examples you seem to alternate 3 (or 2) note fragments from
one
>> triad and the other. What about 4 or 5 or 6 etc fragment from one triad
before
>> switching to the other? is that considered not part of the concept?
>
> Well, a triad only has 3 tones.
3 pitch classes, but lots of pitches. eg using lower case for an octave
higher, what about
GbDgBD fAcFaC
as a 12 note phrase.
Anyway, thanks for the other answers. It seems with me that out of every 100
(or 1000) things I practice, one will stick, sometimes very early on, some
will stick after a lot of work, and som dissipate a few weeks after I stop
practicing them. I can never predict which, but so far I havent had any
success with this idea.
PK
--
http://www.youtube.com/TopologyPaul
http://www.soundclick.com/paulkirk
pmfan57
Paul,
Check this out from Bruce Saunders web site. He's a great player
too. His album is on emusic. (I got the idea to check his site from
chrisZ's post below).
jseaberry
Thank you very much; I'm going to work on this.
Joey Goldstein
From what you've just described, if I understand you, that's not the
technique being discussed.
This technique involves two triad that don't share any common tones.
F and C share the tone C, so they do not constitute a "triad pair" in
the technique we've been discussing.
On the other hand, C and Bb do constitute a triad pair.
Does Wes play some lines that cycle back and forth between Bb and C
while the band plays Gm7? If so then; yes, he's using the technique
we're discussing.
I don't have a recording of 4 On 6 to check this with.
Anybody got an mp3 they can post?
Joey Goldstein
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
>> Paul K wrote:
>>> Joey,
>>>
>>> In all these examples you seem to alternate 3 (or 2) note fragments from
> one
>>> triad and the other. What about 4 or 5 or 6 etc fragment from one triad
> before
>>> switching to the other? is that considered not part of the concept?
>> Well, a triad only has 3 tones.
>
> 3 pitch classes, but lots of pitches. eg using lower case for an octave
> higher, what about
>
> GbDgBD fAcFaC
>
> as a 12 note phrase.
Again, there's all sorts of stuff you can do Paul.
I sometimes mess around with spread triad voicings of the triad pairs too.
I'm using ">" to indicate movement upwards and "<" to indicate movement
downwards.
">>" means to go up to the next pitch plus an octave. "<<" means to go
down to the next note plus an extra octave
(Anybody got a better way to indicate this type of stuff in a text
message?):
F > C > A << G > D > B |<< A > F > C << B > G > D | etc.
Joey Goldstein
The one called "SummaryDMs", or something like that, is the one that
lists all the possible triad pairs using the standard triad types.
The other stuff is all lines I've written over standard changes while
trying out various CB techniques I was studying.
The lines aren't all that musical sounding but it's great reading
practice and great technical study.
These lines were *not* written with the guitar in mind, except that I've
kept them within the range of the instrument.
They were written on the staff using Logic on my Mac.
I wanted to take the guitar out of the equation and concentrate on the
ideas themselves.
It's pretty scattered writing though. Not ready for prime time.
Joey Goldstein
> There are a lot of good postings in the RMMGJ archives on Triad Pairs.
> I'm working on triad pairs now, partially to improve my ear &
> partially to improve my chops. It's fun to practice; but, it
> definitely feels like a "technical exercise" at this point more than a
> musical statement. Making actual music with this approach is still a
> long ways off for me. Can anyone recommend some recordings where a
> musician is using triad pairs in their improvisation? I've heard the
> samples from the Hal Crook "How To Improvise" book, but those are
> pretty short.
>
> Thanks,
>
> SK
Sorry.
I hadn't taken note of the Hal Crook reference in your OP.
In HC's book he does explore pairs of triads that do have common tones.
The stuff I did with Charlie Banacos dealt exclusively with triad pairs
with no common tones between them, and that's what I've been describing
here.
Dan Adler
I certainly agree with that. Bergonzi's books have a natural order,
and it doesn't really make sense to jump to the end before mastering
the beginning...
tom walls
> OK. Here it is.
>
> <http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/TriadPairsStuff.zip>
>
> --
> Joey Goldstein
> <http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
> <http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
> joegold AT primus DOT ca
Hey Joey, the summary of triad pairs is fucking brilliant. Thanks a
lot. The other stuff may be brilliant as well, but, being as I've only
glanced at it, I wouldn't know.
Joey Goldstein
> On Mar 13, 12:30 am, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>> OK. Here it is.
>>
>> <http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/TriadPairsStuff.zip>
>>
>> --
>> Joey Goldstein
>> <http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
>> <http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
>> joegold AT primus DOT ca
>
> Hey Joey, the summary of triad pairs is fucking brilliant.
Thanks.
But once you understand the ideas, that list is pretty much self-evident
to anyone who takes the time to think about it.
> Thanks a
> lot. The other stuff may be brilliant as well, but, being as I've only
> glanced at it, I wouldn't know.
tom walls
> > Hey Joey, the summary of triad pairs is fucking brilliant.
>
> Thanks.
> But once you understand the ideas, that list is pretty much self-evident
> to anyone who takes the time to think about it.
>
Whoops, I guess what I meant to say was that this is so obvious I
don't know why you bothered.
flatnine
The main thing about Triad Pairs exercises is to make you follow
certain paths in terms of note choice.
By thinking in specific terms, you get specific results. It is not
about something technical, it is aesthetic.
It´s through its study that you learn to play melodies in a style that
supposedly you like.
Because that´s what the musicians playing that style do.
So the only thing you have to do, it´s practice the exercise, you´ll
find if so.
cheers
Chico Oliveira
Hi, Joey and all! Can you to share Triad Pairs Stuff again?
Thanks,
Chico.
JohnB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF9fH6DjqDY&t=0s
- John