Kottke Unpopular With Other Guitarists ?
Brian Corll
I mention the name Leo Kottke, I get scowls and silence. Why is that ?
What's wrong with Leo ? Why he is unpopular with other guitarists ? I like
the guy, and everything he does.
JD
You know, if you came up to me after a show and started talking about how
great playerX is, I might brush you off too, no matter how much of a fan I
am. Timing is everything.
JD
Brian Corll
sitting on the porch. I don't get why most other guitarists (GE Smith is an
exception) don't seem to like Leo. I'm puzzled.
Steven Bornfeld
I think when you're on top, there's always a tendency for others to try
to knock you down a peg.
He seems so funny, laid-back, laconic as a stage persona that it's hard
to say how someone who has made a genuine contribution to the art an
popularity of guitar would be knocked on a personal basis. There's no
real use in trying to guess his place in the pantheon of the guitar
while he's still around.
The only negative thing (and not really negative) I've ever heard about
him is that he is really, really picky about his gear and sound. While
this may be somewhat at odds with his laid-back persona, it's certainly
not unreasonable.
Yes, I am a fan.
Steve
>
>
David Hajicek
Are you talking about Leo as a person, or his music? They are not the same
thing.
When I was younger, I was very impressed with his music. He was one of the
reasons I bought my first 12 string. I still like some of his 12 string
stuff, but my tastes have changed and I don't know if Leo's performance
composition has grown much with time. Certainly, he has a following that
expects a specific style of music, which is mostly what he gives them.
For me, a little of his music sometimes goes a long way. I'm not a Kottke
expert, though I have all his CDs. His performances I enjoy the most are
things like him singing some older songs he didn't write. I really like his
voice and playing style on this kind of song. I like his patter during his
shows more than some of the 12-string playing. But patter is part of the
performance too and is an old folk music tradition (so take it with a grain
of salt).
I've found that sometimes playing something simple but well is harder than
playing a lot of notes. Leo can do this but he is much more famous for
playing a lot of notes. ;>)
I don't know Leo personally, never had the opportunity. I know enough to
know that the stage persona and real life person are not the same thing.
But that isn't uncommon or bad in itself. This is his job, after all and he
has to sell himself as well as the music.
I get the impression he is an introvert by nature. This is contrary to how
a performer often must act on stage and how some performers really are both
on and off stage. Introverts and extroverts sometimes do not get along
well.
I know performers who think Leo is a really sweet guy. I've heard some bad
stuff too. None of us is perfect or maybe even consistent. It probably all
depends on their personal experience with him at the time.
I'm glad I'm not a professional performer or I'd probably be pissing off
somebody too. It can be a tough way to make a living.
My $.02.
Dave Hajicek
"Brian Corll" <bco...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:ujJ8b.983$Kt...@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
Larry Pattis
> > I have met a number of well-known guitarists (some very well-known) and when
> > I mention the name Leo Kottke, I get scowls and silence. Why is that ?
> > What's wrong with Leo ? Why he is unpopular with other guitarists ? I like
> > the guy, and everything he does.
Kottke certainly is the most well-known steel-string fingerstyle
guitarist in the world, and he also likely makes the most dough.
I happen to love his music.
However, there are plenty of better musician/guitarists out there in
the fingerstyle community. Some of them know they are better than Leo,
and Leo certainly knows this, too!!! Ironic, eh? Kottke is a modest
player, and knows what his limitations are as a musician, especially by
today's standards. 20-30 years ago he had no peers. Nowadays his
music is distinctive, but he is now simply a good guitarist amongst
many great musician/guitarists.
Do NOT (mis)interpret this as any kind of degrading comment regarding
Kottke. I think what he does is terrific.
It is sad to hear about any of these folks knocking Kottke,
though....although perhaps "scowls and silence" aren't really a knock
against him. I don't think he is at all "unpopular" (your word) with
other guitarists, and I know quite a few of the touring folks out
there.
Just like the average non-guitarist person on the street might know
guitars by the name "Martin," so would anyone that isn't a fan of the
genre perhaps know the name of Leo Kottke. Good for him...AND good for
the rest of us fingerstyle players out there, since Leo has paved the
way....
--
Larry Pattis
LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
Guitar Odyssey
http://www.LarryPattis.com
David Hajicek
"Larry Pattis" <Larry...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:130920031243212659%Larry...@nospam.com...
snip>
> Kottke certainly is the most well-known steel-string fingerstyle
> guitarist in the world, and he also likely makes the most dough.
>
> I happen to love his music.
>
> However, there are plenty of better musician/guitarists out there in
> the fingerstyle community. Some of them know they are better than Leo,
> and Leo certainly knows this, too!!! Ironic, eh? Kottke is a modest
> player, and knows what his limitations are as a musician, especially by
> today's standards. 20-30 years ago he had no peers. Nowadays his
> music is distinctive, but he is now simply a good guitarist amongst
> many great musician/guitarists.
snip> --
> Larry Pattis
> LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
> Guitar Odyssey
> http://www.LarryPattis.com
Good insights. I agree completely. Also, no matter how good a player one
thinks he is, there's always someone better out there. ;>)
So, it could just be a lot of sour grapes type reactions, I suppose. If I
was struggling to make it in performance, I might be jealous of Leo's
success too. There are a lot of egos in the music business and a lot of
sensitivities. My daughter gave up music performance because she didn't
want to deal with that.
I say congratulations to anybody who has the persistence skill and luck to
make a living at music performance of any kind.
And Larry, I really like your CDs and also your darn guitar playing, of
course. ;>)
Dave Hajicek
foldedpath
news:U_I8b.4727$1D5....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net:
Yeah, he has a pretty high profile in the world of steel string
instrumental music. Other players may be trying to get out from under the
shadow.
Brian continues...
>> But this isn't after shows - just conversation during classes or
>> BSing sitting on the porch. I don't get why most other guitarists
>> (GE Smith is an exception) don't seem to like Leo. I'm puzzled.
I don't want to speak for others, but I'll tell you what I think.
Kottke was of my early acoustic Guitar Gods, along with others like
Renbourn, Jansch, Graham, Fahey, and Lang. I have all his early stuff on
vinyl, and I worshipped the guy. When I heard his very first album as a
teenager, it was like he stepped off a UFO from Mars. I've seen him several
times in concert, during the early years.
That was a long time ago, and my ears and musical tastes have grown up a
little. Or to avoid controversy, maybe I should say they've grown sideways
into other musical directions. Now I have a love/hate relationship with
Kottke's music. The music that most impressed me many years ago -- the
machine gun right hand stuff -- now bores me to tears. It's monotonous,
pattern-based playing. It sounds like he's on autopilot. You might as well
be hearing a Midi sequencer, for all the soul and human expression there is
in the music. That's the side of Kottke I've grown to dislike over the
years.... probably due to my own personal detours into blues and pseudo-
jazz playing.
When he gets away from the robotic right hand style, he can be a soulful,
musically interesting player. I've heard some things he's done on recent
albums in this mode that I've liked... mostly the slower tunes. I wish he
could find a way to play his higher-energy music without falling into the
autopilot right hand thing.
Anyway... even at his best, he doesn't quite make it into my own current
pantheon of acoustic guitar heroes along with players like Towner,
Gismonti, Pass, and Breau. That's stiff competition. :-)
I still value the place he held in my early guitar days, as one of the
players who kept me motivated enough to learn how to play fingerstyle
guitar. He may no longer be in my top 10 like he was (egad!) 30 years ago,
but I don't think I'd scowl if you mentioned his name.
--
Mike Barrs
Peter A. Collin
He struck me as a nice guy, somebody who i would like to hang out
with. But I do admit that much of his music is too "out there" for most
folks. A few of his pieces go beyond being a song and sound more like
an interesting finger exersize. Sort of like Stanley jordan. Back in
the '80's, everybody raved about the guy and his wizardry. Where is he
now? He was just a bit too much technique and too little feeling, it seems.
Pete Collin
John Sorell
news:Xns93F5902C5E6DAmb...@216.168.3.44:
That pretty much sums up my feelings about Leo, as well. His playing and
his singing "like geese farts on a windy day" opened up a new world to
me. I've grown in a different direction, too. There is no need to scowl.
Anyway, I could never reach the same level as ability. I'm still
scowling at my own playing.
John
John Sorell
news:ygM8b.89168$7G2....@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
Stanley just appeared at the Jazz Alley in Seattle. It's a venue for
some of the heavy jazzers....Nancy Wilson, Oscar Peterson, Tito
Fuente...
John
Hank Alinger
"Most other guitarists?" sounds a huge, unfounded generalization. Leo is Leo,
very talented and unique. I know he was big pals with greats like Chet Atkins
and Doc Watson...and for example Tommy Emmanuel has the utmost respect and
admiration for the guy and I'm sure so do many other pros...
Leo is a bit of a loner (OK... a real loner), and doesn't hang out much with
other guitarists...but as far as I'm concerned..the guy is absolutely original
and still one of the best...(OK, I wasn't thrilled with Clone) :-)
Better musicians? What does that mean Larry? Leo doesn't play with other
musicains and much and deosn't do to much iin the way of improv...but there have
been only a few others that have been as distinctive and innovative in their
approach to the guitar for so many years...right?
Leo will always insprire me...he continues to be amazing.
Hank
Peter A. Collin
Peter A. Collin
You gotta admit, the song about "The last train to Chico" is a real gem.
Larry Pattis
<hoi...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Most other guitarists?" sounds a huge, unfounded generalization. Leo is
> Leo,
> very talented and unique. I know he was big pals with greats like Chet Atkins
> and Doc Watson...and for example Tommy Emmanuel has the utmost respect and
> admiration for the guy and I'm sure so do many other pros...
>
> Leo is a bit of a loner (OK... a real loner), and doesn't hang out much with
> other guitarists...but as far as I'm concerned..the guy is absolutely original
> and still one of the best...(OK, I wasn't thrilled with Clone) :-)
>
> Better musicians? What does that mean Larry? Leo doesn't play with other
> musicains and much and deosn't do to much iin the way of improv...but there
> have
> been only a few others that have been as distinctive and innovative in their
> approach to the guitar for so many years...right?
>
> Leo will always inspire me...he continues to be amazing.
>
> Hank
I agree with your last comment, of course, and most of what you said,
in fact....
Let me address this (since you asked for clarification):
> Better musicians? What does that mean Larry? Leo doesn't play with other
> musicains and much and deosn't do to much iin the way of improv...but there
> have
> been only a few others that have been as distinctive and innovative in their
> approach to the guitar for so many years...right?
What I mean by "better musicians" is just that. People that can do
musical things with their guitars that even Kottke himself appreciates.
I will never forget what for me (please don't lose track of the "for
me" part of that) was the greatest guitar concert to ever be in
attendance at...Kottke & Bensusan....in front of 10,000 people in
downttown Salt Lake City. When the show came to a close (two solo
sets) they did two "duets," that had been loosely practiced backstage
prior to the show. Kottke comped some chords to one of Pierre's
simpler pieces, which was fine. Then Pierre just went nuts with Kottke
playing his version of "LIving in the Country". Kottke himself was
standing there with a huge smile, watching Pierre produce music on the
guitar that he knew was beyond his means...and he *appreciated* every
second of every note.
So yes, this example relates to improv.
I remember when Kottke toured with Joe Pass, one of the Flamenco greats
(Paco Peña?), as well as a couple of other top-notch players in the
world (sorry, I can't remember any names right now!). Leo himself
declared that he was simply not in the same class of musicianship with
these folks.
So what?
Leo's style is based around certain techniques, and blinding left hand
speed isn't one of them. And as I hope you know, my beliefs are that
if it doesn't serve the music, chops don't matter much to me.
So what?
Kottke is a great player, and I love his music. He has (as you
mentioned) one of the most distinctive and innovative sounds ever. He
changed the way most of us listen to and play guitar. A friend of mine
says, "get their feet tapping, and their hearts and wallets will
follow." This is SO very true of Kottke. He has one of the greatest
right hand styles ever. It can limit him at times, but it is also the
reason for his well-deserved fame.
O-tay...?
George W.
>I have met a number of well-known guitarists (some very well-known) and when
>I mention the name Leo Kottke, I get scowls and silence. Why is that ?
>What's wrong with Leo ? Why he is unpopular with other guitarists ?
I'm not sure if that's true but it may be. He's well known, popular
and makes a good living at what he does. You can probably find a group
of disgruntled people in any field where someone like that exists.
When I first heard "6 and 12 String Guitar" back in the early 70's it
made a lot of us rethink the whole concept of guitar playing. There
are things he does that I don't care for (though I guess I'm one of
the few people that like his singing) but I admire his fearless
approach to playing. Seems like a pretty nice guy, too. It may be that
some prefer the playing of others for any number of reasons. Fine. As
for comments there are "better players" well, I have no idea what that
even means.
G.
JJNeet1
""Stanley just appeared at the Jazz Alley in Seattle. It's a venue for
some of the heavy jazzers....Nancy Wilson, Oscar Peterson, Tito
Fuente...
John
''
I recently went and saw Billy Cobham at Jazz Alley,and while he wasn't near
as flashy as when I saw him many years ago at the Paramount Theater with
Spectrum,he is still amazing.Jazz Alley is a nice place to go see live music
without being hassled by drunken slobs etc.
Jon Neet
Hank Alinger
Larry Pattis wrote:
Sure, I'm with you on all of that. ...
Hank
Hank Alinger
"George W." wrote:
The disgruntled musicians may be the ones who have figured out that Leo makes
more in the year than they will in the next 5 or 10...:-)
Who else can travel the country nearly year-round, year after year and sell out
shows to 300-500 folks/night? Probably nobody....
Hank
foldedpath
news:3F63C875...@comcast.net:
> The disgruntled musicians may be the ones who have figured out that
> Leo makes more in the year than they will in the next 5 or 10...:-)
>
> Who else can travel the country nearly year-round, year after year and
> sell out shows to 300-500 folks/night? Probably nobody....
Britney? Eminem? J-Lo? Kenny G? Esteban?
Okay, that was a cheap shot... but it's also a cheap shot (IMO) to imply
that concert ticket sales = quality on some abstract level.
I don't begrudge Leo Kottke an ounce of respect for what he accomplished.
He was one of my teenage guitar heroes, and he'll always be important to
me.
That's the wrong argument to make, in my opinion.
--
Mike Barrs
Hank Alinger
foldedpath wrote:
> Hank Alinger <hoi...@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:3F63C875...@comcast.net:
>
> > The disgruntled musicians may be the ones who have figured out that
> > Leo makes more in the year than they will in the next 5 or 10...:-)
> >
> > Who else can travel the country nearly year-round, year after year and
> > sell out shows to 300-500 folks/night? Probably nobody....
>
> Britney? Eminem? J-Lo? Kenny G? Esteban?
Sorry, I meant to qualify that to say "solo acoustic guitarists"...
> Okay, that was a cheap shot... but it's also a cheap shot (IMO) to imply
> that concert ticket sales = quality on some abstract level.
Right, I wasn't trying to imply that necessarily either- just making the
connection to the "disgruntled" guitarists...and that fact that very few solo
guitarists can consistently support large audiences. Leo can do it simply
because he's built an eclectic following of fans over the past 30 years- not
because he's the "greatest" out there or something....
It's a shame of course that more of the talented guitarists out there don't
get the opportunity or visibility necessary to do more bigger shows...and of
course the wimpy line-up you indicated above does... :-)(none of which I
would go see of course)
> I'm also always dissapointed that you rarely see any of our guitar heroes
> on television...Leo and others will show up on Austin City limits for
> example...but why not Don Ross, Tommy Emmanual, Pierre Bensusan or others
> on the Late Show with Letterman, for example? Dissapointing, although Simon
> and Garfunkel were on last night...great stuff!
Although, I did see the late, great Danny Gatton on Letterman once but they
hardly introduced or acknowleded him, although he did play a couple of
numbers with Paul and the band.
Hank
JD
(snip)
>
> The disgruntled musicians may be the ones who have figured out that
> Leo makes more in the year than they will in the next 5 or 10...:-)
>
> Who else can travel the country nearly year-round, year after year
> and sell out shows to 300-500 folks/night? Probably nobody....
>
> Hank
Leo books for a minimum of $6000. multiply that times 140/year with no
entourage expense. We're talkin more like 20 years.
JD
Brad Carmichael
Seems like a lot of the characterizations of Leo in this thread are
based on the stuff he did back in the 60's and 70's. He stopped doing
that stuff, and even went slow and lyrical for a long time before
finally becoming a very complete acoustic guitarist. He stopped using
fingerpicks, stopped doing alternating bass, studied classical
technique, starting playing in standard tuning a lot more, did some
jazz type stuff, and so on.
He was never big on left hand technique, and never spent time doing
improvisation. But after studying classical guitar in the 80's he does
a lot more with his left hand at this point than most other
guitarists. And his right hand was and still is unmatched in popular
guitar. But his greatest strength is his composition. His use of
unusual rhythms and tempos, the inclusion of measures of 7/4 or 11/4
time, pieces with alternating measures of 3/4 and 5/4, and so on put
him in a class by himself. I don't think most of the people commenting
have listened to much of what he's done in the last 30 years.
Brad Carmichael
elmcmeen
"Brad Carmichael" <bradc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Re: Kottke..
. > And his right hand was and still is unmatched in popular
guitar.
Please, Brad, let's not get carried away <:)
EM
John E. Golden
> Leo books for a minimum of $6000. multiply that times 140/year with no
> entourage expense. We're talkin more like 20 years.
I've only seen Leo once, at Border's Coffee Shop in Birmingham, Michigan
for free.
After Leo played for about forty-five minutes, people lined up to get their
CD's autographed. One woman had about ten Kottke LP's that it looked like
she bought at a garage sale for $0.25 each. Leo autographed them all
although he did seem to have somewhat of a scrowl on his face. I fell in
love with that woman then and there.
Love ya Leo......no backhanded compliments from me.
Regards,
John E. Golden
John E. Golden
Love ya Leo......no backhanded compliments from me.
Regards,
John E. Golden
John Sorell
I believe you are correct. I don't think that precludes him from having
played at Jazz Alley.
John
elmcmeen
"John Sorell" <j.sorellS...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93F63DAB8704...@130.133.1.4...
Tito Puente died...
EM
Richard A. Lent
produced the groundbreaking "6 and 12 String Guitar" album. I have
listened to, studied, and played their music for years, and greatly
admire both of them. In my mind, the contrast is this: Kottke, a lot
of notes, the "wall of sound" effect. Fahey, way fewer notes, but
each one is meaningful. I think that in a lot of his early pieces at
least, what notes Fahey *doesn't* play are more interesting than the
notes that he does play.
My $0.02.
bradc...@yahoo.com (Brad Carmichael) wrote in message news:<53148692.03091...@posting.google.com>...
John Sorell
@nnrp1.ptd.net:
Maybe Tito Fuento is still alive :)
John
Larry Pattis
> > > I thought Tito died?
elmcmeen <elmc...@ptd.net> wrote:
>
> Tito Puente died...
>
> EM
Yeah, but Tito McMeen is still alive and kicking...
len alcamo
> Hank Alinger <hoi...@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:3F63C875...@comcast.net:
>
> > The disgruntled musicians may be the ones who have figured out that
> > Leo makes more in the year than they will in the next 5 or 10...:-)
> >
> > Who else can travel the country nearly year-round, year after year and
> > sell out shows to 300-500 folks/night? Probably nobody....
>
> Britney? Eminem? J-Lo? Kenny G? Esteban?
>
> Okay, that was a cheap shot... but it's also a cheap shot (IMO) to imply
> that concert ticket sales = quality on some abstract level.
>
>
As it is to imply that virtuosity equals quality... on some abstract
level. The exercise of quantifying skill, on even the most
sophisticated level, is simply that.
IMHO, for the ignorant masses who mostly enjoy music on a visceral
level(me included), LK is the cliche guy representing the fingerstyle
genre. Familiarity with more then one is redundent. :-)
Lenny Alcamo
Stephen Boyke
important composer/performers in guitar history, up there with Sor, Tarrega
and Hendrix. His music will certainly stand the test of time, surviving
into future centuries.
--
Stephen T. Boyke
in article ALI8b.874$Kt4...@nwrdny02.gnilink.net, Brian Corll at
bco...@bellatlantic.net wrote on 9/13/03 10:48 AM:
> I have met a number of well-known guitarists (some very well-known) and when
George W.
>I like to compare Kottke with John Fahey, whose Takoma Records label
>produced the groundbreaking "6 and 12 String Guitar" album. I have
>listened to, studied, and played their music for years, and greatly
>admire both of them. In my mind, the contrast is this: Kottke, a lot
>of notes, the "wall of sound" effect. Fahey, way fewer notes, but
>each one is meaningful. I think that in a lot of his early pieces at
>least, what notes Fahey *doesn't* play are more interesting than the
>notes that he does play.
That's a good point and it illustrates the fact that technical
virtuosity, speed and/or formal training don't necessarily make one a
"better" player. The term is meaningless without some kind of context.
There are countless examples of players with whom the total result is
much greater than the sum of the parts. The song is the thing.
elmcmeen
"Larry Pattis" <Larry...@nospam.com> wrote in message >
>
> Yeah, but Tito McMeen is still alive and kicking...
I'm working on a classical piece...
Tears of a Clown, by Johann Sebastian "Smokey" Robinson
EM
John Sorell
Larry...@nospam.com:
>> "John Sorell" <j.sorellS...@attbi.com> wrote
>> > > I thought Tito died?
>
>
>
> elmcmeen <elmc...@ptd.net> wrote:
>>
>> Tito Puente died...
>>
>> EM
>
>
>
>
> Yeah, but Tito McMeen is still alive and kicking...
>
I thought his name was Germain McMeen...
John
Larry Pattis
> >
> > Yeah, but Tito McMeen is still alive and kicking...
elmcmeen <elmc...@ptd.net> wrote:
>
> I'm working on a classical piece...
>
> Tears of a Clown, by Johann Sebastian "Smokey" Robinson
>
> EM
What about Tito McMeen...isn't he developing his new blend of
Celto-Cuban polyphonic Samba-style fingerstyle guitar...?
elmcmeen
> > "Larry Pattis" <Larry...@nospam.com> wrote in message >
> > >
> > > Yeah, but Tito McMeen is still alive and kicking...
>
>
> elmcmeen <elmc...@ptd.net> wrote:
> >
> > I'm working on a classical piece...
> >
> > Tears of a Clown, by Johann Sebastian "Smokey" Robinson
> >
> > EM
>
>
>
> What about Tito McMeen...isn't he developing his new blend of
> Celto-Cuban polyphonic Samba-style fingerstyle guitar...?
whatever sells...
EM
David Hajicek
You guys sure get picky. What's to prevent a dead guy for touring? After
all, you could prop him up on stage, guitar in hands and play his recorder
music.
Maybe this would attract a new audience? ;>)
Dave Hajicek
JohnS16545
>into future centuries.
>
And I find I'm having a ball revisiting his early material. I recently took on
a new student who was interested in learning some of the Stropes
transcriptions, which we will be exploring in detail. I long ago worked out my
own approximations of such tunes as "Ojo", "Living in the Country" and "Jack
Fig" and am finding it instructive to see which little tricks I missed ("Bean
Time" has some really counterintuitive moves in it).
The other night I had a little time to kill over at the studio and took the
Goodall 12-string off the wall (if I had $4000 burning a hole in my pocket,
it'd be mine), tuned it down a fourth to ADADF#A (fortunately the strings
weren't *too* light) and wailed away down memory lane for the better part of an
hour, and the Goodall kicked pretty much like I remember Leo's old Bozo doing.
Lots of fun.
John Sherman
foldedpath
> Seems like a lot of the characterizations of Leo in this thread are
> based on the stuff he did back in the 60's and 70's. He stopped doing
> that stuff, and even went slow and lyrical for a long time before
> finally becoming a very complete acoustic guitarist. He stopped using
> fingerpicks, stopped doing alternating bass, studied classical
> technique, starting playing in standard tuning a lot more, did some
> jazz type stuff, and so on.
>
> He was never big on left hand technique, and never spent time doing
> improvisation. But after studying classical guitar in the 80's he does
> a lot more with his left hand at this point than most other
> guitarists. And his right hand was and still is unmatched in popular
> guitar. But his greatest strength is his composition. His use of
> unusual rhythms and tempos, the inclusion of measures of 7/4 or 11/4
> time, pieces with alternating measures of 3/4 and 5/4, and so on put
> him in a class by himself. I don't think most of the people commenting
> have listened to much of what he's done in the last 30 years.
Hi Brad,
For what it's worth, I own "Peculiaroso" and I've listened to some of the
more recent CD's in a friend's collection. My characterization was based on
hearing his recent music, although I haven't been to any recent concerts,
so I don't know what he does there.
It's just a personal opinion, no big deal. It's okay to disagree about
stuff like this. :-)
--
Mike Barrs
foldedpath
news:c660eb28.0309...@posting.google.com:
> IMHO, for the ignorant masses who mostly enjoy music on a visceral
> level(me included), LK is the cliche guy representing the fingerstyle
> genre. Familiarity with more then one is redundent. :-)
Hey, I thought Chet Atkins was the "cliche guy" representing the
fingerstyle genre? :-)
The problem is that there's too many fingerstyle genres, and too many good
players to set one person at the apex, when the styles are so diverse.
Consider this short list of names off the top of my head -- Chet Atkins,
Joe Pass, Tuck Andress, Ralph Towner, Lenny Breau, Charlie Byrd, George Van
Eps, Laurindo Almieda, Baden Powell, Mark Knopfler, Michael Hedges, Pierre
Bensusan, David Russell, Manuel Barrueco, Paco deLucia. These are all
"fingerstyle genre" players, and a preference for one or another has more
to do with your personal taste in musical style, than with the strengths
and weaknesses of each player.
All we can do is express our personal taste in music and favorite players,
and then let it go. Otherwise we get locked into "my guitar hero's better
than your guitar hero," and that's a boring game.
--
Mike Barrs
Brad Carmichael
Kottke stopped doing the "wall of sound" thing in the 70's. He still
has aging fans who come to his concerts and request songs from 6 & 12,
most of which he no longer performs. You guys should listen to some of
the music he's done in the last 30 years, you might like it.
Brad Carmichael
elmcmeen
Thanks for educating "us guys" as to guitar music...
EM
Larry Pattis
> > has aging fans who come to his concerts and request songs from 6 & 12,
> > most of which he no longer performs. You guys should listen to some of
> > the music he's done in the last 30 years, you might like it.
> >
> > Brad Carmichael
elmcmeen <elmc...@ptd.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks for educating "us guys" as to guitar music...
>
> EM
Exactly.
I have several of Kottke's recent CDs (although not Clone), and was
backstage and out front for the Kottke/Bensusan concert I mentioned,
which was 3 years ago.
I know what he did 30 years ago, and I know what he does today. I
admire him for (and enjoy) his music (early and current) and I admire
him for what his place is in history.
And as Mike Barrs said, this is not a discussion about "best." It's a
discussion of musicianship, and also one of taste. As a friend of mine
says, "taste is not to be disputed." Someone else chimed in about
Fahey. 30 years ago I was fascinated by a lot of his stuff. Today,
well, I'd rather do just about anything else than listen to John Fahey
recordings. Yes, in many ways Fahey started the genre. I thank him
for this. His music is beyond tedious for my taste, however. The next
time I'm up in Salem, however, I'll probably go seek out and visit his
grave.....
Brad Carmichael
No problem. Feel free to ask anytime if you need help.
Brad Carmichael
Mike
Greenhouse for him to autograph after the show. Seemed very personable and
chatted with audience members on the stage after the show, and later down at
the loading dock. I guess my favorite stuff by Leo are the _songs_ like the
ones on Greenhouse, as opposed to the pure instrumental blistering runs,
although for an amateur like me, that's cool too. A former friend once said
he didn't like Leo cause he was "too perfect."<g>
Did you know his hearing is impaired? A firecracker for his left ear and
Naval Reserve gunnery practice for his right. Damn.
David D. Berkowitz
consistent, and evocative of his style. There are many modern guitarists
with chops that are more in line with Renbourne than with Kottke; however,
most of them create nothing more than air pudding -- their compositions fall
flat. Many of Kottke's compositions are very memorable.
"Larry Pattis" <Larry...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:130920031711058295%Larry...@nospam.com...
> In article <3F63A9E9...@comcast.net>, Hank Alinger
> <hoi...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> > "Most other guitarists?" sounds a huge, unfounded generalization. Leo
is
> > Leo,
> > very talented and unique. I know he was big pals with greats like Chet
Atkins
> > and Doc Watson...and for example Tommy Emmanuel has the utmost respect
and
> > admiration for the guy and I'm sure so do many other pros...
> >
> > Leo is a bit of a loner (OK... a real loner), and doesn't hang out much
with
> > other guitarists...but as far as I'm concerned..the guy is absolutely
original
> > and still one of the best...(OK, I wasn't thrilled with Clone) :-)
> >
> > Better musicians? What does that mean Larry? Leo doesn't play with
other
> > musicains and much and deosn't do to much iin the way of improv...but
there
> > have
> > been only a few others that have been as distinctive and innovative in
their
> > approach to the guitar for so many years...right?
> >
> > Leo will always inspire me...he continues to be amazing.
> >
> > Hank
>
>
> I agree with your last comment, of course, and most of what you said,
> in fact....
>
> Let me address this (since you asked for clarification):
>
> > Better musicians? What does that mean Larry? Leo doesn't play with
other
> > musicains and much and deosn't do to much iin the way of improv...but
there
> > have
> > been only a few others that have been as distinctive and innovative in
their
> > approach to the guitar for so many years...right?
>
>
> What I mean by "better musicians" is just that. People that can do
> musical things with their guitars that even Kottke himself appreciates.
> I will never forget what for me (please don't lose track of the "for
> me" part of that) was the greatest guitar concert to ever be in
> attendance at...Kottke & Bensusan....in front of 10,000 people in
> downttown Salt Lake City. When the show came to a close (two solo
> sets) they did two "duets," that had been loosely practiced backstage
> prior to the show. Kottke comped some chords to one of Pierre's
> simpler pieces, which was fine. Then Pierre just went nuts with Kottke
> playing his version of "LIving in the Country". Kottke himself was
> standing there with a huge smile, watching Pierre produce music on the
> guitar that he knew was beyond his means...and he *appreciated* every
> second of every note.
>
> So yes, this example relates to improv.
>
> I remember when Kottke toured with Joe Pass, one of the Flamenco greats
> (Paco Peña?), as well as a couple of other top-notch players in the
> world (sorry, I can't remember any names right now!). Leo himself
> declared that he was simply not in the same class of musicianship with
> these folks.
>
> So what?
>
> Leo's style is based around certain techniques, and blinding left hand
> speed isn't one of them. And as I hope you know, my beliefs are that
> if it doesn't serve the music, chops don't matter much to me.
>
> So what?
>
> Kottke is a great player, and I love his music. He has (as you
> mentioned) one of the most distinctive and innovative sounds ever. He
> changed the way most of us listen to and play guitar. A friend of mine
> says, "get their feet tapping, and their hearts and wallets will
> follow." This is SO very true of Kottke. He has one of the greatest
> right hand styles ever. It can limit him at times, but it is also the
> reason for his well-deserved fame.
>
> O-tay...?
David Hajicek
hill. ;>)
Dave Hajicek
Karen Williams Johnson
wrote:
>I like to compare Kottke with John Fahey, whose Takoma Records label
>produced the groundbreaking "6 and 12 String Guitar" album. I have
>listened to, studied, and played their music for years, and greatly
>admire both of them. In my mind, the contrast is this: Kottke, a lot
>of notes, the "wall of sound" effect. Fahey, way fewer notes, but
>each one is meaningful. I think that in a lot of his early pieces at
>least, what notes Fahey *doesn't* play are more interesting than the
>notes that he does play.
>
>My $0.02.
Neither John Fahey nor anyone else at Takoma Records, had anything to
do with the actual production of Kottke's "6 and 12 String Guitar"
album. It was submitted to the label. My understanding is that Leo
produced it himself but am not absolutely certain of this. There
would have been a 2nd Kotttke release on Takoma but John rejected it,
thereby releasing Leo from any further obligation to the label. .
It eventually became one of his Capitol albums. ("Ice Water" or so
I've was told by his former manager.)
Rick Ruskin
(From a friend's while on the road)
Karen Johnson
k...@lynxrobotics.com
http://home.socal.rr.com/kjquilts/
Big Bone Bailey
David Hajicek wrote:
"The Best of Leo Kottke" and "Did You Hear Me?" Good to know that Leo went
over the hill in 1976. <G>
Tony Weber
--
I ate the last mango in Paris
Took the last plane out of Saigon
Took the first fast boat to China
And there's still so much to be done.
-Jimmy Buffett-
Remove "MY HEAD" to reply
Karen Williams Johnson
<Larry...@nospam.com> wrote:
<snip>
Yes, in many ways Fahey started the genre. I thank him
<snip>
>Larry Pattis
>LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
>Guitar Odyssey
>http://www.LarryPattis.com
In no way did Fahey "start" the genre. The style and technique(s)
were around long before him. Even he would (and did) cop to that.
What he _did_ start was the small and predominantly one-artist record
label. It was his success with his own recordings that showed others
the way and allowed him to bring other players on to Takoma and begin
to branch out. Too bad that his personal demons coupled with
misplaced trust in those he chose to help him run things, eventually
caused him to lose the company.
Rick Rusin
(from a friend's while on the road)
Mike brown
<sdels...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Doesn't really matter how "popular" Leo is. Kottke is one of the most
> important composer/performers in guitar history, up there with Sor, Tarrega
> and Hendrix. His music will certainly stand the test of time, surviving
> into future centuries.
>
> --
> Stephen T. Boyke
>
??????????
Michael James Richard B
Mike brown
>
> You guys sure get picky. What's to prevent a dead guy for touring? After
> all, you could prop him up on stage, guitar in hands and play his recorder
> music.
>
> Maybe this would attract a new audience? ;>)
>
> Dave Hajicek
Hey, I've seen performers who do that.
Michael James Richard B
elmcmeen
"Karen Williams Johnson" <k...@lynxrobotics.com> wrote in message
news:3f654917...@news-server.socal.rr.com...
> On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 15:19:30 -0700, Larry Pattis
> <Larry...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> Yes, in many ways Fahey started the genre. I thank him
> >for this. -
>
> <snip>
> >Larry Pattis
> >LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
> >Guitar Odyssey
> >http://www.LarryPattis.com
>
>
> In no way did Fahey "start" the genre.
Hey, you old traveling curmudgeon, Fahey--with all his many
shortcomings--gets some credit for starting --or at least accelerating the
practice of--playing guitar solos on steel-string, without vocals, and
outside of the classical and blues genres (although he did some blues). I
thought his stuff was akin to Chinese water torture...but his many fans
apparently didn't...
EM
George W.
> I
>thought his stuff was akin to Chinese water torture...but his many fans
>apparently didn't...
The only Fahey album I was ever able to listen to repeatedly was "Of
Rivers & Religion", one he recorded with a small jazz band. The songs
have a form to them I like and the fact that it's a short album
doesn't hurt. Water torture is a pretty good description of the rest,
at least for me. Even the Christmas albums are a tough listen though
they make pretty good backround music. Not much of a compliment.....
George W.
>here are many modern guitarists
>with chops that are more in line with Renbourne than with Kottke; however,
>most of them create nothing more than air pudding....
Ouch! Good line.
Sherm
wrote:
>Even the Christmas albums are a tough listen though
>they make pretty good backround music. Not much of a compliment.....
Reminds me of the recent Rolling Stones Top 100 thread. If it had
included the names many of us thought were missing, RS would have been
deluged with complaints from young people complaining about "elevator
music" and "dead white males" instead of a few letters like the one
Steve's friend wrote. Time marches on.
Sherm
Joe Thibodeau
class at NSGW. My favorite line from that master class was
"I don't now why you're all here. I guess you like my music."
My other favorite Kottke moment was watching him walk to the stage at a show
in Santa Cruz. Packed house and you could hear his knees knocking from the
balcony. I never saw anyone so nervous. After the first few tunes there he
was the Kottke we all know and love.
For me Kottke is about his presence with the audience. I love his stories
and the way he tells them. He is a good player too but I think his
storytelling is superior to his music. My personal preference.
As far as Kottke having the best right hand ...
I can think of several guitarists I've seen that no one has ever heard of
that would make that comment obsolete in the first few bars of their
performance ... and some of them are quite young. And then there are the
pro's that we are all familiar with ...
Joe
"Brian Corll" <bco...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:ALI8b.874$Kt4...@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
> I have met a number of well-known guitarists (some very well-known) and
when
> I mention the name Leo Kottke, I get scowls and silence. Why is that ?
> What's wrong with Leo ? Why he is unpopular with other guitarists ? I
like
> the guy, and everything he does.
>
>
Larry Pattis
> <Larry...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> Yes, in many ways Fahey started the genre. I thank him
> >for this. -
>
> <snip>
Rick Ruskin wrote:
>
> In no way did Fahey "start" the genre. The style and technique(s)
> were around long before him. Even he would (and did) cop to that.
> What he _did_ start was the small and predominantly one-artist record
> label. It was his success with his own recordings that showed others
> the way and allowed him to bring other players on to Takoma and begin
> to branch out. Too bad that his personal demons coupled with
> misplaced trust in those he chose to help him run things, eventually
> caused him to lose the company.
>
> Rick Ruskin
> (from a friend's while on the road)
> Karen Johnson
> k...@lynxrobotics.com
> http://home.socal.rr.com/kjquilts/
Thanks for this correction, Rick.
That's sorta what I meant....
--
Larry Pattis
Berkowitz <d...@berkowitzguitars.com> wrote:
> I'd also like to say that Kottke's compositions over the years has been
> consistent, and evocative of his style. There are many modern guitarists
> with chops that are more in line with Renbourne than with Kottke; however,
> most of them create nothing more than air pudding -- their compositions fall
> flat. Many of Kottke's compositions are very memorable.
>
I like that term, "air pudding," David.
I'm not sure who on your list is "most of them," but I really don't
want to go any further with this.
Taste is not to be disputed...!!!
Sherm
<Larry...@nospam.com> wrote:
>Taste is not to be disputed...!!!
Well said, live and let live, and to each his own, my friend.
Sherm
(Purveyor of Fine Cliches.)
elmcmeen
"Sherm" <jsherma...@lorainccc.edu> wrote in message
news:3f65d88b...@news.cis.dfn.de...
Taste is indeed subjective, but I have spent 15 years of giving workshops
discussing my opinion that "character' in guitar playing has many objective
elements, such that one's preference for one player over another is not
wholly subjective...and may not even be primarily subjective.
EM
>
Larry Pattis
elmcmeen <elmc...@ptd.net> wrote:
> Taste is indeed subjective, but I have spent 15 years of giving workshops
> discussing my opinion that "character' in guitar playing has many objective
> elements, such that one's preference for one player over another is not
> wholly subjective...and may not even be primarily subjective.
>
> EM
Well, perhaps "air pudding" = "not much character"......
8-)
Sherm
Keep talking brother. I might have an example for ya.
Sherm
David D. Berkowitz
the term in the early eighties -- the early days of Windam Hill -- to
lampoon the prevalence of etherial noodling that pervaded the label. My
problem with much of the modern guitar music is that there's a lot of
noodling and chops and not much compositional content. I love Michael
Hedges for his interpretations of others work, and for his ingenuity in his
playing and creative use of alternative tunings; however, in the three or
four recordings of his that I own I don't think there's a memorable
composition in the whole lot. On the other hand, his versions of "Love
Bizzare," "All Along the Watchtower" or the version of "She Drives Me
Crazy," that he did at the UN Hungerthon concert are exceptional its just
that his own compositions never rose to that level.
I disagree that Leo's on autopilot. There have been a number of recordings
in the past ten years that stand well on their own, such as "Peculiaroso."
For those knocking Leo, lets see how the music of some of the other players
hold up over the years. Every musician is entitled to a few albums that are
flat for one reason or another. Yes, Leo has some techniques that are his
signature and if you're going to brand him for it so be it, but that has
little to do with the compositional content of the pieces he writes. Leo
has a good understanding of composition: Melody, thematic content, mode,
counterpoint, movements. That can't be said for many of today's players
where they have the chops but write nothing memorable.
"Larry Pattis" <Larry...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:150920030811292206%Larry...@nospam.com...
Steve Perry
<elmc...@ptd.net> wrote:
>
> Hey, you old traveling curmudgeon, Fahey--with all his many
> shortcomings--gets some credit for starting --or at least accelerating the
> practice of--playing guitar solos on steel-string, without vocals, and
> outside of the classical and blues genres (although he did some blues). I
> thought his stuff was akin to Chinese water torture...but his many fans
> apparently didn't...
>
> EM
El --
Well, under the influence of, um, certain herbal substances, as well as
extracts of an uncommon species of cactus, and other acidic chemical
concoctions in the late sixties, The Yellow Princess was extremely, ah
... compelling. (Even though the spookiest cut, The Singing Bridge of
Memphis, Tennessee, had very little guitar work in it per se ...)
Then again, whilst utilizing these aforementioned substance, a vanilla
wafer was fairly compelling, so objective listening was hardly part of
the experience ...
--
Steve
Steve Hawkins
anyone here is qualified to judge another's art. I have no problem with
people expressing their opinion on whether they like/dislike someone's
music. Art is subject to personal taste. However, I have a big problem
with people saying artist X (insert favorite negative adjective here) just
because the music doesn't float their personal boat.
"Picasso is such a lame wannabe!" "He uses too much Blue in his Blue
Period of painting."
This makes you a "Critic" and IMHO Critics are the Original Trolls before
the internet came into being. You may not like someone's art, but give
them the respect they earned by putting it out there.
Steve Hawkins
foldedpath
news:t%g9b.2492$vj4.2...@nnrp1.ptd.net:
Hi El,
A little friendly disagreement here. :-)
Fahey did a lot more than "some" blues. He wrote his college thesis on
Charlie Patton, and you can hear Piedmont and Delta instrumental blues
scattered all over his recordings like "Dance of Death...".
As for starting the genre....
At about the same time Fahey was becoming widely known, Davey Graham was
already doing similar things across the Atlantic. Fahey influenced players
like Peter Lang and Kottke on the American side of the pond, while Graham
was influencing Renbourn and Jansch. And they were all listening to each
others' music. It's probably not a coincidence that both Fahey and Graham
started exploring Indian ragas (with Graham also getting into Middle
Eastern modes) at roughly the same time. As an aside, I think it's partly
Fahey's infatuation with the "outside" scales and modes in world music that
make his music difficult to listen to now (that, and the slow tempos). That
stuff sounded a lot better at the time, with a little chemical enhancement.
:-)
So on the one hand, we could anoint both Graham and Fahey as "founding
fathers" of solo acoustic steel string fingerstyle music. But that would be
a travesty in my opinion, because if you really study their music, you can
see how deeply both players are rooted in blues (and in Graham's case
jazz). They were both leaning heavily on what the old black fingerstyle
players had done before... with the only major difference being that they
avoided singing, and were more willing to bring in eclectic influences from
outside. As influental as Fahey may have been, it was more in the way of
introducing a very old way of playing the guitar to a new audience. In that
respect, I'd agree with your assessment above about "accelerating the
practice."
It was a later generation of players like Kottke and William Ackermen that
moved this style of playing into something without any obvious, direct
lineage to blues and jazz. Somewhere along the way, the blue notes,
rhythms, and improvisational elements mutated into something different. So
maybe we should anoint one of the second or third generation players as the
one who started "the genre". Because if you go back far enough, to Fahey
and Graham's day, "the genre" was as much blues and jazz as anything else.
Anyway, I'm just trying to point out how difficult it is to single out one
player as the father figure of a style, when there are so many stylistic
threads weaving through "fingerstyle guitar music".
As always, this is just my opinion, YMMV, etc. :-)
--
Mike Barrs
Jason Casper
> alc...@mwt.net (len alcamo) wrote in
> news:c660eb28.0309...@posting.google.com:
>
> > IMHO, for the ignorant masses who mostly enjoy music on a visceral
> > level(me included), LK is the cliche guy representing the fingerstyle
> > genre. Familiarity with more then one is redundent. :-)
>
> Hey, I thought Chet Atkins was the "cliche guy" representing the
> fingerstyle genre? :-)
>
> The problem is that there's too many fingerstyle genres, and too many good
> players to set one person at the apex, when the styles are so diverse.
>
> Consider this short list of names off the top of my head -- Chet Atkins,
> Joe Pass, Tuck Andress, Ralph Towner, Lenny Breau, Charlie Byrd, George Van
> Eps, Laurindo Almieda, Baden Powell, Mark Knopfler, Michael Hedges, Pierre
> Bensusan, David Russell, Manuel Barrueco, Paco deLucia. These are all
> "fingerstyle genre" players, and a preference for one or another has more
> to do with your personal taste in musical style, than with the strengths
> and weaknesses of each player.
>
> All we can do is express our personal taste in music and favorite players,
> and then let it go. Otherwise we get locked into "my guitar hero's better
> than your guitar hero," and that's a boring game.
It really is just a matter of taste, assuming some comparable standard
of proficiency. For me people like Kottke and Ralph Towner are
creative geniuses, whose playing ability is at the top but who also
write brilliant and innovative pieces. I also admire the incredible
technical skills of artists like Chet Atkins and Tony Rice, who truly
have (or had) the magic fingers. And people like Doc Watson and Norman
Blake are both technically competent and also put tremendous soul into
their music. Tuck Andress is another whose musical gifts seem to put
him in a higher league. Bensusan has some spectacular pieces and he's
obviously a very gifted technician, but in my opinion most of his
music is so formulaic that it could lull crazed weasels to sleep. I
just don't see him as being in the same class as the others I've
mentioned. But you're right, it's not who's best, it's who we like
best.
Jason
elmcmeen
"Jason Casper" <cas...@arcticmail.com> wrote in message
news:884843de.03091...@posting.google.com...
I agree...he's in a higher class...
EM
Hans Andersson
> alc...@mwt.net (len alcamo) wrote in
> news:c660eb28.0309...@posting.google.com:
>
> > IMHO, for the ignorant masses who mostly enjoy music on a visceral
> > level(me included), LK is the cliche guy representing the fingerstyle
> > genre. Familiarity with more then one is redundent. :-)
>
> Hey, I thought Chet Atkins was the "cliche guy" representing the
> fingerstyle genre? :-)
>
> The problem is that there's too many fingerstyle genres, and too many good
> players to set one person at the apex, when the styles are so diverse.
>
> Consider this short list of names off the top of my head -- Chet Atkins,
(snipped)
Exactly the problem of the "genre" fingerstyle guitarist. And one
reason why SOME guitarists are often looked down upon by other
musicians, because SOME concentrate more on the guitaristics than the
music. I think everyone on your list, Mike, is a musician who plays
guitar, not the reverse. As the musicianship improves, the reputation
of the player transcends the label. I think this is true of Leo Kottke
too, but some see him as the guitarist. Nobody calls Martin Simpson a
fingerstyle guitarist b/c he's a fine musician. He is defined by his
musicianship, not the technique of his instrument. This is an old
issue, tho' and some may not see it this way. Hard to agree upon
"musicianship", sometimes.
hans
foldedpath
news:Xns93F7711EC5B68r...@199.45.49.11:
> Ya know, this whole discussion is beginning to piss me off. I don't
> think anyone here is qualified to judge another's art.
Let's see what Samuel Johnson had to say about that:
"You may abuse a tragedy, though you cannot write one. You
may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though
you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables."
--Samuel Johnson
In other words, as a consumer of music, I'm "qualified" as much as
anyone else here to judge Kottke's art, even though I'm just a pissant
amateur.
> I have no
> problem with people expressing their opinion on whether they
> like/dislike someone's music. Art is subject to personal taste.
> However, I have a big problem with people saying artist X (insert
> favorite negative adjective here) just because the music doesn't float
> their personal boat.
I don't see how you can separate the two. One reason Kottke doesn't
float my boat as much as he used to, is that there are elements I hear
in his playing (including some of his recent work), that I've grown to
dislike. I'm not asking anyone else to share that view, but one of the
nice things about Usenet (as opposed to fan-based, moderated forums) is
that one is free to express an opinion like that.
How can I talk about my personal taste in music without mentioning what
it is that I don't like about something? Should I only talk about the
artists I like, and leave all discussion about "Artist X" who I may not
like, to the sycophant fan base? Is that what we're here for.... patting
each other on the back and congratulating ourselves about how much our
opinions are in sync?
Well, not me. I think I've earned the right to this opinion. I've bought
almost every single album Kottke has ever produced, and gone to several
concerts. I've contributed sufficiently to his career, and he can
probably survive what I have to say about his right hand.
> "Picasso is such a lame wannabe!" "He uses too much Blue in his Blue
> Period of painting."
>
> This makes you a "Critic" and IMHO Critics are the Original Trolls
> before the internet came into being. You may not like someone's art,
> but give them the respect they earned by putting it out there.
Give me a break... it's possible to respect someone's work, and still
have critical things to say about it. We're all critics. We make
critical decisions every time we decide what music to put on the stereo,
or what CD to buy (or not buy) at the record store.
The problem occurs when fans of "Artist X" get all prickly and offended
when someone doesn't have only good things to say about their personal
guitar hero.
--
Mike Barrs
Steve Hawkins
news:Xns93F7824C48EF0mb...@216.168.3.44:
I figured some folks wouldn't be able to understand what I was talking
about. So I'll take it to another extreme. Everyone is entitled to their
subjective opinion, has the right to express it and to explain it.
However, do not express it as if the world revolves around it or it's some
great truth that only you know.
BTW, I'm not much of a Leo fan and I don't look at any player as a guitar
hero. I don't, however, have much respect for those who feel the need to
tear down someone else's guitar hero. I question their motive for doing
so.
Steve Hawkins
Sherm
like they're the Oracle at Delphi or something.
Sherm
George W.
>A little friendly disagreement here. :-)
>
>Fahey did a lot more than "some" blues. He wrote his college thesis on
>Charlie Patton, and you can hear Piedmont and Delta instrumental blues
>scattered all over his recordings like "Dance of Death...".
>
>As for starting the genre....
<snip>
Man, you guys really know your shit. I've been heavily infuenced by
Norm Draper and I think it shows. At least I get comments about it
when I play. Usually something like "I had no idea you could play so
many songs with only three chords. Reminds me of this guy I met on the
beach in Atlantic City."
Sleepy Fingers Jones
So...You got the vanilla wafer thing too, huh.
Seen.
Pete
PKing26588
>So
>maybe we should anoint one of the second or third generation players as the
>one who started "the genre". Because if you go back far enough, to Fahey
>and Graham's day, "the genre" was as much blues and jazz as anything else.
>
>Anyway, I'm just trying to point out how difficult it is to single out one
>player as the father figure of a style, when there are so many stylistic
>threads weaving through "fingerstyle guitar music".
>
Hell I thought everyone KNEW Barrios was the father of solo fingerstyle
steel-string guitar. ;-)
Paul K.
Steve Hawkins
news:3f662375...@news.cis.dfn.de:
> Mr. Barr expresses his opinions civily. Some people Dispense Truth
> like they're the Oracle at Delphi or something.
> Sherm
>
>
Even though Mike objected to my post, I was not tossing stones in his
direction. Your second sentence was my target. If the shoe fits...
Steve Hawkins
Sherm
wrote:
I knew you knew that. I was writing fast. Not correcting you or
anything. I'm sure he knows you know that too. Hmmm. Shades of a
Taylor debate I had once.
Sherm
David D. Berkowitz
I expressed my opinion as qualified, and certainly not without
respect -- the suggestion that I did otherwise is hooey. By your own
remarks, you too my friend, are a critic. That's fine, that's what this
forum is about, discussing ideas, in a civil manner. My read from your
remarks is that its fine when you're pissing on someone else's pantleg, but
you don't like it when someone pisses on yours. That you are a fan of
Hedges and not of Kottke is evident from your remarks about " I don't,
however, have much respect for those who feel the need to tear down someone
else's guitar hero." Any number of people in this discussion have made
comments for and against Kottke, as did I. My point in mentioning Hedges
wasn't to slam him (I clearly do not think much of his compositions but I
also expressed my respect for his playing, ingenuity and interpretations of
others work), but merely to make the point about the difference between
chops and composition. Those comments are no more or less critical than
your own.
"Steve Hawkins" <res0...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Xns93F78BC27F16Er...@199.45.49.11...
foldedpath
> I figured some folks wouldn't be able to understand what I was talking
> about. So I'll take it to another extreme. Everyone is entitled to
> their subjective opinion, has the right to express it and to explain
> it. However, do not express it as if the world revolves around it or
> it's some great truth that only you know.
Where, exactly, did I do that?
I'm usually pretty careful to try to avoid absolute statements in
matters of taste. There were plenty of others in this thread who made
absolute statements about the world's greatest right hand, etc.
> BTW, I'm not much of a Leo fan and I don't look at any player as a
> guitar hero. I don't, however, have much respect for those who feel
> the need to tear down someone else's guitar hero. I question their
> motive for doing so.
Where is the line between saying "I don't like this player that much, or
this or that about his right hand technique bothers me".... and then
"tearing down" your guitar hero?
The only way I can avoid tearing down your guitar hero is to shut my
mouth, and not say what I really think about whatever player we're
talking about. Is that what you're looking for?
I don't get this... honestly. And believe me, I have no ulterior motive.
All I'm doing is telling you what I think about this topic. Check the
subject header above. My opinion on this isn't even OT (for once).
Anyone here could say (and have said) negative things about guitar
players and entire genres that I care very much about, and I don't feel
this kind of indignation you're expressing. It's just opinions, man. We
all have them. I don't expect you to like what I like.
As I've tried to point out before, what brings us all together here is
love of the *acoustic guitar*.... NOT love of a particular musical genre
or class of players. Hence the occasional friction over topics like
this, when people are astonished to learn that someone else might not
revere the same players they do.
----
P.S. there is an interesting parallel thread running in the rmmgj forum
right now titled "Negative Opinions". My favorite quote so far is this
one by Holger:
"...regarding my personal taste I find a lot of the highly regarded
players unlistenable to. I know why I don't like their playing and I
could explain it to fellow musicians but I'd never say they suck,
because I can also hear that they really can play. It's just that I hate
it ;)"
Maybe that's the line I should be using.
--
Mike Barrs
foldedpath
news:a3bcmvskkf4486ms2...@4ax.com:
Awww.... that don't mean nothin'. All it means is that we're geezers with a
lot of old vinyl records that are gathering dust in a box somewhere. :-)
--
Mike Barrs
JD
Actually the father of solo fingerstyle steel string guitar is a mother, or
a lot of mothers actually. If it wasn't for all those gals learning to be
ladies by playing "parlor" guitar at the turn of the century, we'd all be
posting to rec.music.makers.banjo now.
JD
John Sorell
news:i8ccmvkl5qfi77rce...@4ax.com:
They are wonderful, eh?
John
Steve Hawkins
news:rKq9b.12992$1D5...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net:
> Steve,
>
> I expressed my opinion as qualified, and certainly not without
> respect -- the suggestion that I did otherwise is hooey. By your own
> remarks, you too my friend, are a critic. That's fine, that's what
> this forum is about, discussing ideas, in a civil manner. My read
> from your remarks is that its fine when you're pissing on someone
> else's pantleg, but you don't like it when someone pisses on yours.
> That you are a fan of Hedges and not of Kottke is evident from your
> remarks about " I don't, however, have much respect for those who feel
> the need to tear down someone else's guitar hero." Any number of
> people in this discussion have made comments for and against Kottke,
> as did I. My point in mentioning Hedges wasn't to slam him (I clearly
> do not think much of his compositions but I also expressed my respect
> for his playing, ingenuity and interpretations of others work), but
> merely to make the point about the difference between chops and
> composition. Those comments are no more or less critical than your
> own.
First, I have not expressed that I'm a fan of anyone in this thread so I'm
not sure where your comment about Hedges comes from.
Second, I am neither advocating for nor defending any player. Where I seem
to be having trouble making my point is in asking why some folks seem to
feel their opinion should determine the technical or artistic merit of a
player. Good or Bad!
We are bombarded by "Experts" these days. Their opinions are everywhere
with no facts, qualifications or even identification to back them up. Just
because I don't care for a player's music doesn't make them less of a
player. I doubt that Leo is suffering because you and I aren't buying his
CDs.
You like their music? Great! You don't like their music? Great! Beyond
that I find this discussion of a players merit to be as valid as an episode
of Survivor.
Quick, Jeff! Vote me off!!!
Steve Hawkins
Steve Hawkins
news:Xns93F7A31C3C3F0mb...@216.168.3.44:
> Steve Hawkins <res0...@verizon.net> wrote in
> news:Xns93F78BC27F16Er...@199.45.49.11:
>
>> I figured some folks wouldn't be able to understand what I was
>> talking about. So I'll take it to another extreme. Everyone is
>> entitled to their subjective opinion, has the right to express it and
>> to explain it. However, do not express it as if the world revolves
>> around it or it's some great truth that only you know.
>
> Where, exactly, did I do that?
Arrgghhh! Mike, you didn't! I'm speaking in very general terms about the
thread.
> P.S. there is an interesting parallel thread running in the rmmgj
> forum right now titled "Negative Opinions". My favorite quote so far
> is this one by Holger:
>
> "...regarding my personal taste I find a lot of the highly regarded
> players unlistenable to. I know why I don't like their playing and I
> could explain it to fellow musicians but I'd never say they suck,
> because I can also hear that they really can play. It's just that I
> hate it ;)"
>
> Maybe that's the line I should be using.
>
That is an excellent quote and is exactly what I'm talking about!
Thanks Mike!
Steve Hawkins
Sleepy Fingers Jones
<j.sorellS...@attbi.com> wrote:
Oh, Maan, 'specially the ones with the chocolate tips.
Pete
foldedpath
> foldedpath <mba...@NOSPAM.nightviewer.com> wrote in
> news:Xns93F7A31C3C3F0mb...@216.168.3.44:
>
>> Steve Hawkins <res0...@verizon.net> wrote in
>> news:Xns93F78BC27F16Er...@199.45.49.11:
>>
>>> I figured some folks wouldn't be able to understand what I was
>>> talking about. So I'll take it to another extreme. Everyone is
>>> entitled to their subjective opinion, has the right to express it
>>> and to explain it. However, do not express it as if the world
>>> revolves around it or it's some great truth that only you know.
>>
>> Where, exactly, did I do that?
>
> Arrgghhh! Mike, you didn't! I'm speaking in very general terms about
> the thread.
>
Well, the use of the word "you" in your paragraph above could be taken
several ways. :-) Sorry if I misinterpreted!
>> P.S. there is an interesting parallel thread running in the rmmgj
>> forum right now titled "Negative Opinions". My favorite quote so far
>> is this one by Holger:
>>
>> "...regarding my personal taste I find a lot of the highly regarded
>> players unlistenable to. I know why I don't like their playing and I
>> could explain it to fellow musicians but I'd never say they suck,
>> because I can also hear that they really can play. It's just that I
>> hate it ;)"
>>
>> Maybe that's the line I should be using.
>>
>
> That is an excellent quote and is exactly what I'm talking about!
>
> Thanks Mike!
>
> Steve Hawkins
Steve,
Seriously.... you might enjoy reading the "Negative Opinions" discussion
going on right now over on rmmgj (or read the Google archive once it
updates). Some people over there are making the same points you are. It's a
very interesting parallel thread!
--
Mike Barrs
Sleepy Fingers Jones
wrote:
>"David D. Berkowitz" <d...@berkowitzguitars.com> wrote in
Our culture and values are built, over time, by criticism. Through
criticism comes consensus. It is criticism which creates a template
through which we can express our subjective judgement in terms that
are comprehensible to other people.
Mankind likes to measure it's achievements. To a certain extent, this
process is mechanical, and therefore, simplistic. Criticism is flawed
in it's simplicity.
I don't see anything wrong with making critical comparisons between
players, or actors, or politicians, or luthiers..or anything you care
to name. It's the critical eye of the public that keeps anyone who's
offering anything to that public on their toes.
Of course, this is a very Greek way of looking at things.
Pete (Democracy Lures)
Steve Hawkins
> Our culture and values are built, over time, by criticism. Through
> criticism comes consensus. It is criticism which creates a template
> through which we can express our subjective judgement in terms that
> are comprehensible to other people.
>
> Mankind likes to measure it's achievements. To a certain extent, this
> process is mechanical, and therefore, simplistic. Criticism is flawed
> in it's simplicity.
>
> I don't see anything wrong with making critical comparisons between
> players, or actors, or politicians, or luthiers..or anything you care
> to name. It's the critical eye of the public that keeps anyone who's
> offering anything to that public on their toes.
>
> Of course, this is a very Greek way of looking at things.
>
> Pete (Democracy Lures)
Whoa! It's going to take several beers before I can digest all that!
Steve Hawkins
jsherma...@lorainccc.edu
>Quick, Jeff! Vote me off!!!
I'm kinda busy with Ken right now but as soon as I get clear . . .
Sherm
PKing26588
Paul K.
David Hajicek
"Big Bone Bailey" <Mycro...@MYHEADspeakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:3F654BFF...@MYHEADspeakeasy.net...
>
>
> David Hajicek wrote:
>
> > Well, when they release a "Best of Leo Kottke" CD, we'll know he's over
the
> > hill. ;>)
> >
> > Dave Hajicek
>
> "The Best of Leo Kottke" and "Did You Hear Me?" Good to know that Leo
went
> over the hill in 1976. <G>
>
> Tony Weber
>
Well, there you have it from the horses mouth. ;>)
I think he's started going 'round the circle again. So maybe we have to
wait for "The Second Best of Leo Kottke."
Dave Hajicek
Sleepy Fingers Jones
wrote:
>Sleepy Fingers Jones <persisten...@NOSPAM.yahoo.com> wrote in
You can imagine how many beers I had to drink before I came out with
that lot...
P
A Nengineer
Kottke and that's all he does."
He is a brilliant composer, and his style of COMPOSITION--apart from his
playing--has evolved much over the years.
I used to listen to him faithfully as a kid in the early 70s, up until
college in the mid-70s when I went off in other directions (mostly
non-musical). Those were the days of "Jack Fig" and "Vaseline Machine Gun"
and "Busted Bicycle."
Nearly twenty years later, I came upon his then-new CD "Great Big Boy," and
was enthralled. I bought several of his other releases from the late-80s
onward. I remember being amazed at the stylistic changes since my earlier
dalliance with his work. It was no longer "solo guitar," but fully-fledged
arrangements including very interesting instruments and combinations
(EXAMPLE: "Little Snoozer" from "That's What," played on six-string bass),
as well as gentle and thoughtful arrangements of others' work (EXAMPLE:
Carla Bley's "Jesus Maria" also from "That's What;" "Corrina, Corrina" from
"Standing in My Shoes.") and spirited covers as well ("I Still Miss Someone"
from "Great Big Boy;" "World Turnin'" from "Standing in My Shoes.")
As far as "techniques that are his signature," what accomplished musician
doesn't have such? I can recognize Pat Metheny's playing immediately upon
hearing, yet that is a "good thing," in my humble opinion. These are deemed
"signature techniques" because we recognize and (for the most part)
appreciate them as stemming from an individual musician whom we admire.
I have gotten many years of pleasure and enjoyment from Mr. Kottke, for
which I sincerely thank him, from the bottom of my heart.
"David D. Berkowitz" <d...@berkowitzguitars.com> wrote in message
news:eDl9b.29056$pd5....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
>
> I disagree that Leo's on autopilot. There have been a number of
recordings
> in the past ten years that stand well on their own, such as "Peculiaroso."
> For those knocking Leo, lets see how the music of some of the other
players
> hold up over the years. Every musician is entitled to a few albums that
are
> flat for one reason or another. Yes, Leo has some techniques that are his
> signature and if you're going to brand him for it so be it, but that has
> little to do with the compositional content of the pieces he writes.
A Nengineer
tones?
I seem to remember that from an interview in Acoustic Guitar ten or eleven
years ago.
"JohnS16545" <johns...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030914160620...@mb-m12.aol.com...
>
> The other night I had a little time to kill over at the studio and took
the
> Goodall 12-string off the wall (if I had $4000 burning a hole in my
pocket,
> it'd be mine), tuned it down a fourth to ADADF#A (fortunately the strings
> weren't *too* light) and wailed away down memory lane for the better part
of an
> hour, and the Goodall kicked pretty much like I remember Leo's old Bozo
doing.
Brian Corll
work...;-)
"foldedpath" <mba...@NOSPAM.nightviewer.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93F7824C48EF0mb...@216.168.3.44...
> Steve Hawkins <res0...@verizon.net> wrote in
> news:Xns93F7711EC5B68r...@199.45.49.11:
>
Joe Carpenter
news:%m9ab.7786$BS5....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net
> Doesn't Leo typically tune his guitars (well, the 12s anyway) down two whole
> tones?
>
> I seem to remember that from an interview in Acoustic Guitar ten or eleven
> years ago.
He used to, but now he mixes some light & medium gauges and tunes
down just one step (& sometimes just 1/2). He's been doing this
for about 4 years now. That's one reason you don't see him play
much slide on the 12 in concert anymore. He's rarely in open tunings
of any sort for a number of years now as well.
Rgds,
Joe
http://www.joe-carpenter.com
6 & 12 String Guitar
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Paul Franklin
> > LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
> > Guitar Odyssey
> > http://www.LarryPattis.com
>
> You guys sure get picky. What's to prevent a dead guy for touring? After
> all, you could prop him up on stage, guitar in hands and play his recorder
> music.
>
Keith Richards comes to mind...