breaking string - octave G on a 12-string
carl e. stehling
string?
i've had this problem on both 12 strings that i have owned lately, and
no, the string doesn't always break at the nut, nor does it break only
when being tuned up, or only when being flatpicked.
i would prefer not to use unison G strings, this is a major p.i.a.
--
Carl Stehling
Bill Chandler
brewed up the following, and served it to the group:
Carl--I've pretty much chalked it up to physics and/or fate (or is
that phate?). Question--do you tune the 12-string up to standard
pitch (EADGBE)? I had that problem for the week or so I tuned my
original 12-string (an Epiphone FT165) up to standard. When I started
tuning down to D (DGCFAD) the problem mostly went away.
When I tried (once) to tune my new Guild D25-12 up to standard, I
promptly broke the high G-string. I took this as a message from on
high that I shouldn't bother. I prefer the lower tuning, anyway--just
wanted to see if standard would work.
I tune down a step, and use a capo when I need to play with others, or
get to a different key. (Now repeat after me: The capo is NOT evil.
The capo is our FRIEND.)
I have been told by several very knowledgeable people that this just
shouldn't happen unless there is a problem. One of the most common
ones I've been told about is a burr on the tuning machine post--but
this would be dependent on where the string is actually breaking, and
if the string isn't breaking in a consistent place, well, the Damned
Thing just isn't being cooperative.
Hope this helps.
-----
"The truth knocks on the door, and you say, 'Go away, I'm
looking for the truth,' and so it goes away. Puzzling."
--Robert M. Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
the above e-mail address remains totally fictional.
the real one is bc9424@spamTHIS!.concentric.net (if you remove spamTHIS!.)
Bill Chandler
...bc...
Carl McIntyre
This problem of breaking the octave G string
is most often encountered on 12s that are being tuned
all the way up to concert pitch. Herein lies the problem.
All acoustic 12 string guitars should be tuned down a
whole step. One man's opinion. Breaking the string is
actually the least problem that can occur on a 12 that
is being tuned up to pitch. It is all too common to see
12 strings with totally bellied tops, reset necks, and
tons of other more serious problems when they are
being expected to maintain this much string tension.
A regular six string with light gauge strings
usually has 163 pounds of tension at concert pitch.
Because the octave strings are tuned a whole octave
above the primary strings, I figure the tension must be
more than twice that much on a twelve. I just can't see
how any 12 string cound stand up with this much tension
for long. I think it is much better to tune it down properly
and use a capo at the second fret so you are in correct
pitch. Your guitar will no doubt be a lot more trouble free.
Carl McIntyre / repair tech
carl e. stehling <zc...@uwm.edu> wrote in article
<39CB6AA6...@uwm.edu>...
> has anyone found a solution for breaking octave G strings on a 12
> string?
> i've had this problem on both 12 strings that i have owned lately, and
> no, the string doesn't always break at the nut, nor does it break only
> when being tuned up, or only when being flatpicked.
>
> i would prefer not to use unison G strings, this is a major p.i.a.
> --
> Carl Stehling
>
Geoff Duncan
My solution is to borrow from the heavy metal side of the string case: I
keep a bunch of .008 GHS Boomers in my 12 string case to swap in for
high Gs whenever I break one. Typically, when I put a new set of strings
on the 12, the high G breaks fairly quickly. I put one of those GHS
whammy-bar certified strings on there, and it stays there until I next
change the whole set.
I've done this through three 12-strings in the last dozen+ years; seems
to work for me.
In article <01c024c7$29706ee0$1c1b4d0c@default>, "Carl McIntyre"
<McIntyr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>All acoustic 12 string guitars should be tuned down a
>whole step. One man's opinion.
This topic is frequently rehashed on RMMGA, but the basic consensus is
that so long as a 12-string is braced to be tuned to concert pitch, it's
safe to do so using light or extra light 12-string sets. I would be
hesitant to tune up to concert pitch using heavier strings, though,
unless the instrument were explicitly braced for it. Some manufacturers
(e.g., Taylor) rate some of their their instruments at various string
weights and pitches; I think the Leo Kotke Taylors are designed for use
with medium strings tuned down three semitones from concert pitch (e.g.,
to D flat rather than E).
>A regular six string with light gauge strings
>usually has 163 pounds of tension at concert pitch.
>Because the octave strings are tuned a whole octave
>above the primary strings, I figure the tension must be
>more than twice that much on a twelve.
Usually a 12-string set has from half again to a little over two-thirds
again as much tension as a six-string set; still a lot of tension, but
less than double the load of a six-string. (Bear in mind 12-string sets
are a little lighter than 6-string sets, though, and the octave strings
typically have lower tensions than their lower-pitched counterparts.)
Typical tensions are as follows:
6 string Extra Light phosphor bronze
(.10 through .47 or so) 133 - 138 lbs
12 string Extra Light phosphor bronze
(.009 through .45 or so) 218 - 222 lbs
6 string Light phosphor bronze
(.12 through .53 or so) 160 - 165 lbs
12 string Light phosphor bronze
(.10 through .47 or so) 248 - 255 lbs
6 string Medium phosphor bronze
(say .13 through .56) 185 - 190 lbs
12-string Medium phosphor bronze
(say .12 through .52) 318 - 330 lbs
These are rough ratios for the tensions:
x-light to x-light: ~ 1 : 1.63
light to light: ~ 1 : 1.55
medium to medium: ~ 1 : 1.71
Please note these figures are purely from notes I've made off the slips
in string sets over the years, and will likely vary widely between
manufacturers, though several are represented here. I believe some
manufacturers (D'Addario? Dean Markley?) publish the tensions of their
strings on their Web sites; I'm sure you could check the veracity of
these numbers fairly easily.
Also, it's important to note that what one company calls "medium"
another calls "heavy," and so forth, which is why I've noted the
guage-range I used for my figures above.
Anyway - yes, 12-strings carry a lot more tension than a six-string, but
a) it's not "more than double" the load, and b) many 12-strings are
built to take it. If you've got a beast in category (b) and stick toward
light and extra light sets, there shouldn't be a problem.
Hope that helps --
gd
--
Email sent to this address won't reach me or anyone else.
xyzj...@worldinter.net
>has anyone found a solution for breaking octave G strings on a 12
>string?
>i've had this problem on both 12 strings that i have owned lately, and
>no, the string doesn't always break at the nut, nor does it break only
>when being tuned up, or only when being flatpicked.
>
>i would prefer not to use unison G strings, this is a major p.i.a.
Use an .008 G.
Kevin Hall
scale length shorter than 25". Scales longer than that tend to pop strings
more often due to the increased tension required to get a long scale string
up to the same pitch.
KH
Carl McIntyre <McIntyr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:01c024c7$29706ee0$1c1b4d0c@default...
> Greetings,
> This problem of breaking the octave G string
> is most often encountered on 12s that are being tuned
> all the way up to concert pitch. Herein lies the problem.
> actually the least problem that can occur on a 12 that
> is being tuned up to pitch. It is all too common to see
> 12 strings with totally bellied tops, reset necks, and
> tons of other more serious problems when they are
> being expected to maintain this much string tension.
> usually has 163 pounds of tension at concert pitch.
> Because the octave strings are tuned a whole octave
> above the primary strings, I figure the tension must be
> how any 12 string cound stand up with this much tension
> for long. I think it is much better to tune it down properly
> and use a capo at the second fret so you are in correct
> pitch. Your guitar will no doubt be a lot more trouble free.
>
>
> Carl McIntyre / repair tech
>
> <39CB6AA6...@uwm.edu>...
> > has anyone found a solution for breaking octave G strings on a 12
> > string?
> > i've had this problem on both 12 strings that i have owned lately, and
> > no, the string doesn't always break at the nut, nor does it break only
> > when being tuned up, or only when being flatpicked.
> >
> > i would prefer not to use unison G strings, this is a major p.i.a.
> > Carl Stehling
> >
Jay Bagwell
a 8 gauge string typically...Ive been buying single 10 gauge strings
(cheap) whick fixed the problem...sounds better too!
shrimer
being tuned to EADGBE without the added stress? Maybe a 24 or 23.5"
scale, say?
I don't understand the concept in which the design calls for tuning down
a whole step, and then you have to slap a capo on 'em. I am supposing
that a guitar may as well just come with a built in capo (so to speak),
so why not just build the thing in such a way that the capo is not
needed.
I know, I know, the manufacturers' all swear they were built to be tuned
to pitch -- both of my current 12s say that, AND both are 24.75" scale
(one Rick, one Gibson). Both of them ARE "tuned to pitch", but it
sounds as if you're suggesting *I'd* better be prepared to "pitch" the
both of them when either the bridge comes off at warp speed accompanied
by a loud BANG, or when the neck resembles a bow. :-) << (Notice
smiley face!)
I hate playing with a capo on a twelve string in the first place, as the
neck is too wide as it is at the first, how much more won't I hate it at
the fifth?
Aaaacckkk!
Fred ("Where's my jingle-jangle morning when I need it?") Shrimer
Kevin Hall
The trouble with going to a very short scale as you suggest, is that it
makes it very difficult to tune and to keep in tune. Short scale 6 strings
are tougher to tune and keep in tune than longer scale models, and on a 12,
which is already a nightmare in the sharp/flat sweepstakes, any further
agravation is asking for trouble. Shortening the scale beyond a reasonable
point also costs you horsepower.
KH
shrimer <ftsh...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:39CC1541...@telus.net...
Michael McIntyre
>> sounds as if you're suggesting *I'd* better be prepared to "pitch" the
>> both of them when either the bridge comes off at warp speed accompanied by a loud BANG, or when the neck resembles a bow. :-)
It takes awhile. My 12-string lasted for about eight years, but the
neck is getting really, really bad now.
OTOH I tried tuning it down a step and using a home-made capo and the
tone just isn't there. At that tension the strings are too floppy,
and the tone is very weak. Not worth playing IMHO. At least not on
this guitar.
---
D. Michael McIntyre | mmci...@swva.net | USDA zone 6a in sw VA
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/index.html
Have you hugged a tree today?
Allan Flippin
found for no breaks so far. And keep a few spares around.
Allan
In article <39CB6AA6...@uwm.edu>,
"carl e. stehling" <zc...@uwm.edu> wrote:
> has anyone found a solution for breaking octave G strings on a 12
> string?
> i've had this problem on both 12 strings that i have owned lately, and
> no, the string doesn't always break at the nut, nor does it break only
> when being tuned up, or only when being flatpicked.
>
> i would prefer not to use unison G strings, this is a major p.i.a.
> --
> Carl Stehling
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Neil O'Connor
(snip)
> I don't understand the concept in which the design calls for tuning down
> a whole step, and then you have to slap a capo on 'em. I am supposing
> that a guitar may as well just come with a built in capo (so to speak),
> so why not just build the thing in such a way that the capo is not
> needed.
Hear, hear. When I bought my D-12-35 20 years ago (used), the seller
opined that "for what ya pay for a Martin, you'd better be able to tune 'em
to concert...". The seller was Jim Olschmidt, BTW, frequent AG reviewer
and author. TO date: no neck resets needed, one re-fret job 12 years ago,
and the barest hint of a belly....and great tone/playability.
> I know, I know, the manufacturers' all swear they were built to be tuned
> to pitch -- both of my current 12s say that, AND both are 24.75" scale
> (one Rick, one Gibson). Both of them ARE "tuned to pitch", but it
> sounds as if you're suggesting *I'd* better be prepared to "pitch" the
> both of them when either the bridge comes off at warp speed accompanied
> by a loud BANG, or when the neck resembles a bow. :-) << (Notice
> smiley face!)
Care counts for a whole lot. Except for the time I pitched it onto a
marble floor (one ding resulted), it's been cased when not playing, and
kept out of the hands of thrasher types.
> I hate playing with a capo on a twelve string in the first place, as the
> neck is too wide as it is at the first, how much more won't I hate it at
> the fifth?
>
> Aaaacckkk!
Yeah. If I wanted a balilika, I'd buy one..;). When I want "high lonesome
sound", I stop playing and let the mandolins take over.
But...to the question at hand: breaking octave G strings. Some thoughts:
1) This happened most often to me during my D'Addario Light days. My
solution was to pick up a couple of single unwound strings .001 thicker
than the standard J-38 (?) in the D'Addario 12 string set. If the original
went "ka-snat!", the thicker replacement usually lasted for the life of the
rest of the set.
2) Have not had the octave G break since I switched to Elixer's 2 years
ago. I dunno why. One more reason I'm sticking to Gore-tex. To coin a
phrase..;).
> Fred ("Where's my jingle-jangle morning when I need it?") Shrimer
Neil (whose future still hints at a Rick 12) O'Connor
Donald Erickson
The octave "G" is, IIRC, generally a .09. I used to have the same problem,
until I heavied it up a little, substituting a .10. It didn't make a
material change in tone or tension, but stopped the breakage problem.
Don
"carl e. stehling" <zc...@uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:39CB6AA6...@uwm.edu...
Bob Dorgan
>
> shrimer writes:
>
> (snip)
>
> > I don't understand the concept in which the design calls for tuning down
> > a whole step, and then you have to slap a capo on 'em. I am supposing
> > that a guitar may as well just come with a built in capo (so to speak),
> > so why not just build the thing in such a way that the capo is not
> > needed.
>
> Hear, hear. When I bought my D-12-35 20 years ago (used), the seller
> opined that "for what ya pay for a Martin, you'd better be able to tune 'em
> to concert...". The seller was Jim Olschmidt, BTW, frequent AG reviewer
> and author. TO date: no neck resets needed, one re-fret job 12 years ago,
> and the barest hint of a belly....and great tone/playability.
>
I tune mine down because I like the tone better there, but if I'm gonna
be playing with somebody else, I just tune it to concert.
A well made 12 string should be able to take the tension of concert
pitch.
If it won't, somebody else is gonna own it, 'cause I ain't keeping it!
Bob Dorgan
a.k.a. Speak
"carl e. stehling" <zc...@uwm.edu> wrote:
> has anyone found a solution for breaking octave G strings on a 12
> string?
> i've had this problem on both 12 strings that i have owned lately, and
> no, the string doesn't always break at the nut, nor does it break only
> when being tuned up, or only when being flatpicked.
>
> i would prefer not to use unison G strings, this is a major p.i.a.
> --
> Carl Stehling
>
the following:
My cheap 12 string (long scale length and all) has been tuned to
standard pitch for nigh on 10 years. Had a major problem with g strings
breakage till I started using sets with a .010 gauge string. The sets I
had been using before had all used .008's. No significant belly-ing of
the top or bowing of the neck so far. And it sounds OK. It's really not
happy tuned down. And I AM a thrasher- type!
And that McIntyre pick-up sounds pretty good in it, too!
--
Speak
Taking Hack Guitar-Playing into the 21st Century
john bj
> has anyone found a solution for breaking octave G strings on a 12
string? i've had this problem on both 12 strings that i have owned
lately, and no, the string doesn't always break at the nut, nor does it
break only when being tuned up, or only when being flatpicked.
>
> i would prefer not to use unison G strings, this is a major p.i.a.
Hi Carl,
Anyway, my two cents: I had the same problem on my first two 12s, an
unknown brand from the early 70s and a Tama; a friend also had this
problem on her Guild, even when tuned down a half step.
When I bought my Taylor 555 last year I bought a bulk pack of .009
strings from Musician's Friend anticipating a regular breaking problem,
but haven't had one. At first I attributed this to tuning down 1/2
step, but over the last few months I've been tuned to concert and still
haven't busted the octave G (in fact the only string that has busted was
the bass A).
My two thoughts on why the change: humidity - now I live in the Arizona
desert, where you really have to work at getting metal to corrode; my
past problems were in New York, Virginia and Florida, all considerably
more humid. Another theory is that the saddle and nut material may be
smoother and otherwise 'string-friendly' (see frets.com for more
insights).
BTW, you're right - unison G strings would kill the "12-string sound".
peace and joy,
jbj
--
(e-mails should be sent to desert2000 @ NOSPAM yahoo.com)