Baritone scale length: 27", 28", 29".
Tony Weber
don hindenach
wrote:
> Discus
what does a round flying object have to do with guitars?
--
-donh-
donh at audiosys dot com
Tony Weber
> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 03:34:11 UTC, Tony Weber <mycro...@SOCKSspeakeasy.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Discus
>
> what does a round flying object have to do with guitars?
>
Fine. Discuss. (The Baritone, not the frisbee.)
David A
I saw one played live at a Dave Graney gig and thought it very sexy...
sounded good too. I wouldn't expect it to fly as well as your average
frisbee tho...
Regards,
Misifus
> Discuss...
I've played two baritones that really took my fancy. One was a Martin
custom shop conversion that had a 27" scale. The other was Wade Hampton
Miller's McAllister, and I don't know the scale length on it.
-Raf
--
Misifus-
Rafael Seibert
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rafiii
home: http://www.rafandsioux.com
Tony Done
"Tony Weber" <mycro...@SOCKSspeakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:yNmdnT-OLP0bGM_W...@speakeasy.net...
> Discuss...
Mine's 30", beat that. An OLP electric, Musicman knockoff. This is three
frets longer than a standard 25 1/2" scale give or take a bit. I really
haven't found a niche for it, as it conflicts with the bass in a band if I
use it in the typical baritone range. What I have done is put 13-56 strings
on and tuned it up to open D. That makes the string tension high, but it
chimes and sizzles like no other electric I have used in that tuning as a
lap steel.
Tony D
JD
You could play "Ghost Riders In The Sky" with it
Steve Hawkins
OLP0bGM_WnZ2...@speakeasy.net:
> Discuss...
The longer the scale, the heavier the string. I like my 27.5" because I
can still use single wound strings and it fills the same gap the cello does
between the violin and the bass.
The longer scale's sound like a bass and do not ring or play like a guitar,
IMHO.
Steve Hawkins
Tony Done
<JD> wrote in message news:00318dba$0$2132$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
We used to do "death letter blues" in the style of Cassandra Wilson, but
unfortunately the vocalist wanted it in G, so it didn't make good use of the
chimey low registers of open D. - I used a capo.
Tony D
Tony Done
"Steve Hawkins" <res0...@verizon.netREMOVETHIS> wrote in message
news:Xns9D02E2B368262r...@69.16.185.250...
How do you tune it, and what gauge strings? I don't think any acoustic
instrument has the ability to produce good-sounding low notes like a cello.
Tony D
Steve Hawkins
news:J8y4n.1833$pv....@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
I hope you meant unamplified acoustic *guitar* when you said "acoustic
instrement". :-)
I'm not saying it does, I'm only comparing the guitar family to the violin
family. There's a big space between the guitar and bass guitar.
Low E on guitar is around 80Hz
Low B on a Baritone is around 62Hz
Low E on a bass is around 40Hz
I use Bif-Bee-Fib tuning on my baritone = B F# B E F# B
I don't know what logic the various string makers used to determine their
Baritone sets, but they're all way too heavy for me and my McCollum. I
suspect they were originally made up for a 30" scale and at least one or
two of the lowest strings are double wound, lke a bass string.
I did a lot of experimenting on string gauges and set up a spreadsheet to
calculate the total tension of various combos. My goal was to end up with
the same string tension a standard light gauge set has on a 25.5" scale
guitar, around 165 pounds total.
I make my own sets from John Pearse singles that I buy through
juststrings.com. I'm still waffling on the 2nd string. I started out with
a .019 plain, but it was way too loud compared to the other strings and a
liitle uncomfortable to play. I'm using a wound 2nd now and still
duthering between a .020 and .022.
My current set is .064 .047 .036 .027 .022W .015P
The guitar rumbles and has gorgeous overtones with great sustain using that
set.
Steve Hawkins
Bif-Bee-Fib, also the One True Tuning!
David Hajicek
"Steve Hawkins" <res0...@verizon.netREMOVETHIS> wrote in message
Thanks Steve. Good information. Boy, that's getting down there.
Dave Hajicek
Tony Weber
> Tony Weber wrote:
>> Discuss...
>
>
> I've played two baritones that really took my fancy. One was a Martin
> custom shop conversion that had a 27" scale. The other was Wade Hampton
> Miller's McAllister, and I don't know the scale length on it.
>
> -Raf
>
ever played, and the McAlister that inspired me to make an order with
Roy. Wade's Bari is 28," if memory serves.
TW
David Hajicek
<JD> wrote in message news:00318dba$0$2132$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
I've loved that song ever since I was a little kid. When done right, it
still gives me Goosebumps.
Dave Hajicek
Tony Done
"Steve Hawkins" <res0...@verizon.netREMOVETHIS> wrote in message
> "Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote in
> news:J8y4n.1833$pv....@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
>
>>
>> "Steve Hawkins" <res0...@verizon.netREMOVETHIS> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9D02E2B368262r...@69.16.185.250...
>>> Tony Weber <mycro...@SOCKSspeakeasy.net> wrote in news:yNmdnT-
>>> OLP0bGM_WnZ2...@speakeasy.net:
>>>
>>>> Discuss...
>>>
>>> The longer the scale, the heavier the string. I like my 27.5"
>>> because I can still use single wound strings and it fills the same
>>> gap the cello does
>>> between the violin and the bass.
>>>
>>> The longer scale's sound like a bass and do not ring or play like a
>>> guitar,
>>> IMHO.
>>>
>>> Steve Hawkins
>>
>> How do you tune it, and what gauge strings? I don't think any acoustic
>> instrument has the ability to produce good-sounding low notes like a
>> cello.
>>
>> Tony D
>
> I hope you meant unamplified acoustic *guitar* when you said "acoustic
> instrement". :-)
I was thinking in general. Some instruments might be louder than a cello (eg
Wurlitzer organ), but I can't think of one that can produce the tonal
complexity in its low range.
>
> I'm not saying it does, I'm only comparing the guitar family to the violin
> family. There's a big space between the guitar and bass guitar.
>
> Low E on guitar is around 80Hz
> Low B on a Baritone is around 62Hz
> Low E on a bass is around 40Hz
>
> I use Bif-Bee-Fib tuning on my baritone = B F# B E F# B
<wry g> That's just DADgad in disguise
>
> I don't know what logic the various string makers used to determine their
> Baritone sets, but they're all way too heavy for me and my McCollum. I
> suspect they were originally made up for a 30" scale and at least one or
> two of the lowest strings are double wound, lke a bass string.
>
> I did a lot of experimenting on string gauges and set up a spreadsheet to
> calculate the total tension of various combos. My goal was to end up with
> the same string tension a standard light gauge set has on a 25.5" scale
> guitar, around 165 pounds total.
>
> I make my own sets from John Pearse singles that I buy through
> juststrings.com. I'm still waffling on the 2nd string. I started out
> with
> a .019 plain, but it was way too loud compared to the other strings and a
> liitle uncomfortable to play. I'm using a wound 2nd now and still
> duthering between a .020 and .022.
>
> My current set is .064 .047 .036 .027 .022W .015P
>
> The guitar rumbles and has gorgeous overtones with great sustain using
> that
> set.
I've tried using a the low five of a 13-56 set, then adding a matching bass
0.075 and tuning to open B or C. That would be a very high tension for an
acoustic. I can get it to sound OK but uninspiring, literally, <g> not like
a cello. I might do better with a different amp or some clever EQing, I
don't think the problem lies in the pickups or the guitar.
Tony D
Tony Weber
> Discuss...
The question was prompted by several recent encounters with several
Baritones, which have reawakened my interest in the Beasts. One was a
Webber Mahogany/Sitka 27" that Robb had in stock at Guitar Emorium, that
sold a couple fo months ago. Last weekend I had stopped in at Dusty
Strings to play an old 40s 000-21 at the behest of my friend Stephan
(who is a software guy, heck of a player and a tone junkie of the
highest order), and played a Goodall 28" Rosewood/Ad (I think) and a Roy
Noble 28" Koa/German. And this week Robb received another Baritone from
David Webber; a 29" EI Rosewood/Sitka. (All Scales are approx; all were
point something or another.) Oh, and the 27" Froggy Bottom 12-string
that I played in New York should be mentioned, I guess. <G>
The 27" Webber had a great sound, was a great guitar, and had a great
big rich fat tone even when played up the neck. I tried in mainly tuned
C to Ca, and B to B. (and in Open, uh, B and C). Not sure of teh gauge
strings (although I think that they were stock D'Adarrio Baritones).
My real feeing was that, as nice as it was, that the scale was too
short, particularly for the gauge on it. C was not quite low enough to
pull the low end out of it, and in B to B it was as though there was not
enough tension to get the top moving, so the higher registers were not
quite there. I would have like to up a gauge and kept it tuned to B.
The Noble and Goodall were both nice. However, the Goodall came with
standard medium strings on it, and is only tuned down to D to D. Which
mystifies me as I though that the whole point is to be able to go lower
than a standard scale guitar tuned down a step. So the Goodall to me
sounds just like a nice guitar tuned down a whole step; it has none of
that underlying low frequency harmonics when played up the neck. I'd
like to try it strung up like a proper Baritone and tuned down to C or B.
Stephan had played the Noble twice before I had. I've played Noble
Baritones before; Robb carried Nobles for a while, and I had played
several there, and my friend Carl Tosten has one as well. They had
struck me as quite nice. However, apparently someone at Dusty had
restrung the Noble there with standard mediums to match the Goodall in
between the two times that Stephan played it, and which were on it when
I had a go with it. Similarly to the Goodall, it was tuned D to D. I
also had a similar reaction; it did not have the underlying low
harmonic to the tone. I did try tuning it to C, but then again ran into
it not really seeming to move the top. I wanted to like it more than I
did. I'd like to try it with proper Baritone strings on it.
The 29" Webber Robb got in on this thursday. I spent an hour or so with
it friday evening after closing while Robb taught a lesson. Probably a
D'Adderio Bari set again, tuned B to b. My feel is that it really did
have that low underlying harmonic played up the neck. I have also
played other Rosewood Baritones that I thought had an excess of harmonic
wash which caused the low end to become muddy; this guitar did not have
that (I've played others that did not as well, but it has been hit or
miss with Rosewood backs on Baritones.) However, I primarily play with
fingers, and I found that I had a hard time getting enough "ommph" out
of the 2 low strings with my thumb. (Hawkins also plays with fingers,a
nd his input is very pertinent here) It was better up the neck, but in
the first few frets, the bass almost wasn't there. That changed,
however, when I used a pick; then I could get enough energy into the
trings that the volume across low to high was balanced. I had a very
good time playing this guitar with a pick, as the partial chords in
general sounded great. It is defenately a guitar that you have to adapt to.
Yesterday Stephan was coming down to the store when I stopped in. As I
wanted to hear him play the Webber, I hung around. (And wound up missing
the beatdown of the Cards by New Orleans. No big deal, as I'd rather
see a good, close game. On the other hand, I've been quite enjoying the
beatdown of Dallas... <G>) Another player, who was visiting Seattle
from down Ashland way to mix an album, also came by looking for a cone
for a resonator, and wound up playing with Stephan for a couple of
hours. (His name alludes me at the moment, but his band just recorded a
dvd at the Triple Door, so he was a hell of a player) They swapped the
Baritone back and forth and tried a bunch of other Webbers, while I sat
out front and listened. Both eventually got a decent volume out of the
low end with fingers, but sounded better with a pick. (Double Drop A
was an interesting tuning) However, the common consensus was that this
instrument probably required a pick or thumbpick to get the best out of.
Both can play the low in with a pick and fingerpick with their other
fingers, and it sounded great like this. I do want to try it again and
see if my technique can adapt enough to pull a decent tone out of the
low strings with my thumb, and I'm looking forward to Ray Boyce trying
it, as he has a built up thumbnail plus the technique of having played
bass. I also want to try tuning it down to A to A, and tuned Open B or A.
So what my questions are involve scale lengths, tunings and string
gauges. I don't feel that the 27" Baritones that I've played give a
sound that is sufficiently "Baritoneish" to justify their expense.
However, I primarily fingerpick, and need to do some more
experimentation with my ability to get a volume that I'm happy with
using just my thumb. Since I play some with a slide, I'll probably want
a little more tension than Steve's 165 lb pull, so that I don't bottom
out on the frets. I remember liking Wade Miller's 28" Koa McAlister,
but Wade primarily flatpicks, so something in between the tension of
that guitar and Steve's would be interesting, assuming I could get the
volume and tone I want. I still think that I'd probably lean more
towards the Koa to Mahogany territory than Rosewood for back and sides,
although I'd like to hear a Cocobolo-backed version, for fits and
giggles sake. What is the top on Ed jr, Steve? Any thoughts, comments,
opinions, folks?
I also may just go buy a set of baritone string and have Dusty restring
that Noble, so I can have a proper try with a Koa 28" while I have the
chance.
So many guitars, so little time...
TW
Discuss.
Misifus
Well it certainly made an impression on me. That's a great guitar, and
I know Wade and Roy worked hard to make it what it is.
Misifus
The two I've played have been tuned standard, B-b. I played them
fingerstyle and they just plain rumbled. The Martin bari in Wimberley
was just taken off the market. I surely wish I could afford it.
Tony Weber
> Tony Weber wrote:
>> Misifus wrote:
>>> Tony Weber wrote:
>>>> Discuss...
>>>
>>>
>>> I've played two baritones that really took my fancy. One was a
>>> Martin custom shop conversion that had a 27" scale. The other was
>>> Wade Hampton Miller's McAllister, and I don't know the scale length
>>> on it.
>>>
>>> -Raf
>>>
>> I've played Wade's MaAlister, Raf. That was the first Baritone that
>> I'd ever played, and the McAlister that inspired me to make an order
>> with Roy. Wade's Bari is 28," if memory serves.
>>
>>
>> TW
>
>
> Well it certainly made an impression on me. That's a great guitar, and
> I know Wade and Roy worked hard to make it what it is.
>
> -Raf
>
Yes they did, and it is.
TW
Steve Hawkins
I think Junior would change your mind about 27.5's. :-) Junior is Italian
Spruce on Andaman Paduak. Andaman is different from the African variety
because Andaman is a true rosewood (dalbergia).
I used to play only with flesh, like Laurence Juber, but started using a
thumbpick when I grew my nails. I get a cleaner, clearer tone, more power
and better dynamic control that way. Also, using a Fred Kelly Speed Pick
allows me to use the flat or edge of the spike. The other thing I like
about my 27.5 is you can strum it and it won't muddy up.
If you like the feel of a Medium set of strings, you're looking for 185 to
190 pounds of tension.
If you're headed down here sometime, let me know and stop by. I believe
Roy is familiar with Lance's baritones; he had a good look at Junior the
last time I was at his house.
Steve Hawkins
Tony Weber
I thought that I played Junior at Chehalis or one of Roy's BBQs.
Perhaps not.
So you do use a thumb pick. So I might be right in my thinking that I
may need to learn a new technique for properly getting the3 most out of
a Bari. Worth it, I think, as they sound so cool.
I actually like lights, but have mediums on both the Rayco and the
scratch and dent McAlister, with a .16 or .17 high E. However, both
live tuned down to Open G or D. so average tension is going to be lower.
Plus both have short scale length, so I guess somewhat of a split
between 165 lb and 185. Both are set up that way for Open tunings with
slide, but the tradeoff is a little bit of loss of responsiveness for
fingerpicking. Both give a better tonal response with a little more
tension to; the Rayco I know form experimentation, and the McAlister was
built for mediums, as it was originally built for a flatpicker. It
never seemed quite responsive as it should be to me when Ray had it
strung with lights. A Baritone I'm going to want to play hybrid
fingerpicking/slide on as well, probably in open tunings although I'll
probably play in standard B to B as well. I don't know if I'll need to
resort to anything like the larger 1st string to support the slide and
give a better tone on a Baritone.
Thanks for the invite. I should stop in sometime and give you a hard
time for invading my home state. Same thing for Pattis, but when I come
down to Oregon on weekends I'm usually on a high speed run to the coast.
However,i do have periodic hearings in Long Beach or White Salmon that
leave my afternoons or early evening free.
Roy already built a pretty nice Baritone, but he is a bit of a gearhead
and wants to know how and why things do what they do, bless his geeky
soul. <G> I'm sure he was into Junior with a mirror 5 seconds after you
offered.
Tony
Les Cargill
> Discuss...
Just tune a standard scale 6 down to whatever. Add reverb
if it's too clackey.
(just saying - how much action *would* a bari get in your
stable?)
--
Les Cargill
hank alrich
Harvey Gerst has done some research and it turns out that while those
numbers are correct from a theoretical standpoint, in practice plucked
string instruments rarely deliver the fundamental of a low string. They
generally give us the next octave up.
> I use Bif-Bee-Fib tuning on my baritone = B F# B E F# B
>
> I don't know what logic the various string makers used to determine their
> Baritone sets, but they're all way too heavy for me and my McCollum. I
> suspect they were originally made up for a 30" scale and at least one or
> two of the lowest strings are double wound, lke a bass string.
>
> I did a lot of experimenting on string gauges and set up a spreadsheet to
> calculate the total tension of various combos. My goal was to end up with
> the same string tension a standard light gauge set has on a 25.5" scale
> guitar, around 165 pounds total.
>
> I make my own sets from John Pearse singles that I buy through
> juststrings.com. I'm still waffling on the 2nd string. I started out with
> a .019 plain, but it was way too loud compared to the other strings and a
> liitle uncomfortable to play. I'm using a wound 2nd now and still
> duthering between a .020 and .022.
>
> My current set is .064 .047 .036 .027 .022W .015P
>
> The guitar rumbles and has gorgeous overtones with great sustain using that
> set.
>
> Steve Hawkins
> Bif-Bee-Fib, also the One True Tuning!
>
--
ha
shut up and play your guitar
http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/hsadharma
Steve Hawkins
news:1jchj54.do33ettld5j4N%walk...@nv.net:
hmmmmm.....I'd like to know how Harvey determined that. A freq counter
can't handle the overtones and could trigger off the strongest harmonic
during its sampling interval. A spectrum analyzer would be able to show
the fundamental and the harmonics, but the decay of the string could
cause the amplitude to change rapidly across the harmonic range as the
energy ran out. The initial pluck of the string has the strongest highs,
but they die off very rapidly.
Where's Al Carruth when we need him? :-)
Steve Hawkins
hank alrich
I'll send him a note and see if he'll get back to us. He's been a bit
busy, having just designed a new studio monitor for Trident that is a
departure from typical configurations.
> A freq counter
> can't handle the overtones and could trigger off the strongest harmonic
> during its sampling interval. A spectrum analyzer would be able to show
> the fundamental and the harmonics, but the decay of the string could
> cause the amplitude to change rapidly across the harmonic range as the
> energy ran out. The initial pluck of the string has the strongest highs,
> but they die off very rapidly.
>
> Where's Al Carruth when we need him? :-)
>
> Steve Hawkins
From Havery's info at ITRstudios.com:
Harvey Gerst has 40+ years of experience as a songwriter (with a gold
record), studio musician, recording engineer, producer, musical
instrument designer, and manufacturer. He's worked with: the
Association, Buffalo Springfield, the Byrds, Bob Dylan, Sweetwater,
Albert King, Jefferson Airplane, Peter, Paul, and Mary, Kenny Rogers,
Mike Bloomfield, the Doors, Jimi Hendrix, Frank Zappa, the Grateful
Dead, Janis Joplin, and many other famous dead people. He's been behind
the board at most of LA.'s top recording studios. Be sure to check out
the Archives section for some great pictures of these bands and others
that Harvey has worked with.
Harvey has worked for: JBL, Fender/Rhodes, Acoustic Control, Gibson,
Akai, Charvel, Jackson, Cerwin-Vega, Morley, Ross, Peavey, Roland,
Emmons, Yamaha, and AMP. He just finished helping VST speakers with
their reissue of his original JBL musical instrument speakers.He also
writes the popular "For Musicians Only" column in the Texas Harder Beat
magazine, and he's had a full page article about the studio appear in
Fort Worth Weekly magazine, as well as a featured article in TapeOp.
Tony Weber
> Tony Weber wrote:
>> Discuss...
>
>
> Just tune a standard scale 6 down to whatever.
Doesn't give the same sound quality, particularly when tuned below D.
I've played enough Baritones to know there is a huge difference.
Add reverb
> if it's too clackey.
And how would I do this when playing an acoustic instrument acoustically?
>
> (just saying - how much action *would* a bari get in your
> stable?)
Actually I think that it would get quite a lot of use. Enough to
justify the cost of having a good sounding one. The only thing that I
have that doesn't get that much playing time is the Larrivee Parlour.
Although it is a nice one, it just can't keep up with the McAlisters, or
the Froggy, or the Rayco, or Ye Olde Martin...
But it gets enough use to justify its presence.
TW
Misifus
This sounds like a good candidate for FFT analysis. Unfortunately,
since retiring, I no longer have that equipment at hand.
Tom from Texas
news:yNmdnT-OLP0bGM_W...@speakeasy.net...
> Discuss...
Are we discussing saxophones or ukuleles?
--
Tom from Texas
(The Tom Risner Fund for Deserving North Texas Guitarplayers is not liable
for any slander, hurt feelings, pointless moaning, or achy-breaky heartache
any post under this name should cause. Yall want easy cash or sympathy...
ye can kiss my grits!!)
Les Cargill
I'd go with a waterfall plot.
> The initial pluck of the string has the strongest highs,
> but they die off very rapidly.
>
What shows on a plain old spec. an. display of a low
E on a PBass* is first and second harmonics dominate.
Obviously, the fundamental sustains more. But the second
harmonic is slightly over the fundamental, 3dB or so.
*with well worn roundwounds...
> Where's Al Carruth when we need him? :-)
>
> Steve Hawkins
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
Hi, Tony. My name's Les. My main guitar was $65, from a
pawn shop in McKinney, Tx. It's a good 'un. I don't
exaggerate. It is an early example of how globalization
benefits us all.
I've since bought other guitars, but the parsimony of
that previously imputed particular purchase remains as a
guiding principle.
I pretty much grew up playing, and I know it's the
pilot, and not the crate.
You can't get to heaven on roller skates, and the act
of willingly suspending disbelief being what it is in art,
if you truly believe a detuned standard scale 6 is
a baritone, it'll be just fine.
--
Les Cargill