SpamCop and this newsgroup
Valerie L. Magee
Internet service had been cut off because I supposedly posted multiple
"SPAM" type messages. The multiple was TWO, posted to rec.music.folk and
rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic. Apparently there is someone who reads
one of these two newsgroups who considers messages here about new CDs to
be SPAM. I would have thought that Gordon Lightfoot's most recent CDs
were on-topic and appropriate for both of these newsgroups.
Needless to say, I will certainly think twice before I post any more CD
announcements. The fault can be shared among (a) the person who reported
it, (b) SpamCop, and (c) my ISP which reacted in a knee jerk fashion.
It took two hours to get my service restored, and I had to listen to a
lecture about sending SPAM and a warning that if it happens again I
would be cut off permanently.
I am posting this here both to communicate my unhappiness and also to
alert anyone else out there who occasionally posts about new CDs that
some people consider such messages to be SPAM - regardless of whether
they are on topic in the newsgroup (which mine were), and regardless of
whether the person posting is selling them (which I am not). Since I
earn my livelihood doing Internet development, being cut off is more
than just an inconvenience.
Sorry to share this with you. Most of you are good friends but this has
really thrown me for a loop. Thanks for listening.
--
Regards,
Valerie
Visit some of my web sites
... Gordon Lightfoot at http://gordonlightfoot.com
... Lightfoot Tribute Band at http://mageenet.org/LightfootTributeBand
... Michael Jerling at http://michaeljerling.com
... Artist's retreat Yaddo at http://yaddo.org
Bill Chandler
<vlm...@mageenet.net> brewed up the following, and served it to the
group:
<snip>
>Needless to say, I will certainly think twice before I post any more CD
>announcements. The fault can be shared among (a) the person who reported
>it, (b) SpamCop, and (c) my ISP which reacted in a knee jerk fashion.
<snip>
Valerie--I, for one, appreciate your announcements. If announcing a
Gordon Lightfoot CD or gig isn't on-topic here, I don't know what is.
Sorry you got the shaft--but please don't stop the info, if they'll
let you post it. *sigh*
-----
"The truth knocks on the door, and you say, 'Go away, I'm
looking for the truth,' and so it goes away. Puzzling."
--Robert M. Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
the above e-mail address remains totally fictional.
the real one is bc9424@spamTHIS!.concentric.net (if you remove spamTHIS!.)
...please check out http://www.mp3.com/BillChandler some time...
...TX-2 Pictures at http://www.concentric.net/~Bc9424/index.html
Bill Chandler
...bc...
Greg Z
> Needless to say, I will certainly think twice before I post any more CD
> announcements. The fault can be shared among (a) the person who reported
> it, (b) SpamCop, and (c) my ISP which reacted in a knee jerk fashion.
>
> It took two hours to get my service restored, and I had to listen to a
> lecture about sending SPAM and a warning that if it happens again I
> would be cut off permanently.
>
Geez Val,
That really stinks! First of all, the venomous person who would do
that; second, that your ISP would just cut off service without even
seeking YOUR input or explanation. They really take care of their
customers, eh? Did they bother to even read the messages???
I don't know what Spamcop is.
Maybe changing the header, and sending posts individually and at
different times wouldn't be considered spam??
Regards,
Greg "no expert" Z
J. Mark Lane
I have enjoyed your posts here, and as Gord fan I appreciate the updates.
On the other hand, you do have to ask yourself, what if a fan of every major
musical artist posted regular updates here? It could get to be a pain. And
under *some* definitions it is probably spam . . . . And no, it was not me
who "reported" you. I suspect it might have been someone from the folk
group, although I have no idea, and perhaps it's unfair to make that
suggestion. I just know from my involvement with that group that it is much
more ... um... carefully defined, if you get my drift.
Sorry you had this problem. Please stick around. Please post more stuff
about the music you like, and so forth. How's Gord doing, by the way? I
heard he recently had surgery or something.
Mark
Valerie L. Magee <vlm...@mageenet.net> wrote in message
news:3D8492C5...@mageenet.net...
Jerry53
all the porn, work at home, and sexual enhancer postings on this group. I
sure hope he/she does. that would be something that would keep them busy for
a long time. :-)
Gozy
stuff at home, particularly that of the chain letter variety, I forward it
to the Federal Trade Commission at u...@ftc.gov
"Jerry53" <ger...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:sd1h9.263290$Rx4.3...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
Bill Chandler
<mist...@worldnet.att.net> brewed up the following, and served it to
the group:
>Hi Valerie,
>
>I have enjoyed your posts here, and as Gord fan I appreciate the updates.
>On the other hand, you do have to ask yourself, what if a fan of every major
>musical artist posted regular updates here? It could get to be a pain. And
>under *some* definitions it is probably spam . . . . And no, it was not me
>who "reported" you. I suspect it might have been someone from the folk
>group, although I have no idea, and perhaps it's unfair to make that
>suggestion. I just know from my involvement with that group that it is much
>more ... um... carefully defined, if you get my drift.
>
>Sorry you had this problem. Please stick around. Please post more stuff
>about the music you like, and so forth. How's Gord doing, by the way? I
>heard he recently had surgery or something.
>
>Mark
Mark, Valerie, and anyone else interested...I just went back and
perused the latest posting of Tom Loredo's excellent "Welcome to
RMMGA" message, and found the following, quoted directly:
<begin quote>
Performers' Itineraries and Announcements
Posts of the performing itineraries of individual artists, or
announcements of new recordings from individual artists, are welcome.
It is in the best interest of performers and their audiences alike
that itineraries also be posted to the Musi-Cal web site, described
above.
<end quote>
Seems quite clear to me that what Valerie does is perfectly acceptable
and legal for RMMGA. Perhaps you're right, Mark--I don't hang around
on r.m.f. at all, since lurking there a long time ago and deciding I
didn't like the tone of the group at all, as compared to RMMGA--maybe
it was someone from that group.
Whatever, it sucks out loud. Valerie, once again, please stick
around.
jc
"Valerie L. Magee" <vlm...@mageenet.net> wrote in message
Valerie, that's really stupid on your ISP's part. Did they look into the
messages you posted? If not, why not? I don't understand how they can do
that without a little investigation first! It's a raw deal and it sucks.
As Mark said, if every fan posted...... however, they don't and there
are certain folks that do keep us updated on goings-on that I look forward
to. Please don't give up on this, your posts are on-topic and I consider
them a public service for us all.
Cheers,
jc
Kevin Goodsell
<vlm...@mageenet.net> wrote:
>
>It took two hours to get my service restored, and I had to listen to a
>lecture about sending SPAM and a warning that if it happens again I
>would be cut off permanently.
I can't believe you even put up with that crap. Did they even read the
messages? I would have explained the situation to them, told them that
I had no intention of stopping, and demanded that they restore my
service immediately. If they have a problem with that, fine. I find a
new provider.
I suppose you may not have had this luxury, though. But seriously, if
your livelihood depends on your internet access, you can't afford to
be cut off on a whim. I would still consider finding a new provider if
possible (and when canceling your current service, I'd take the
opportunity to tell them off a bit).
I'm tempted to send a message to your abuse address explaining that it
was *not* spam, that no one else minded at all, and that the only
abuse that occurred was their abuse of their client. But I don't
suppose that would help.
-Kevin, sick of crappy ISPs
(I've been unable to send e-mail for 3 days now. Typical.)
P.S. I wouldn't blame SpamCop. It's just a tool. The miss-use of this
tool is the fault of the user.
J. Mark Lane
I do not wish to be identified with whoever dislikes Valerie's posts.
However, the strident responses I have seen here do, IMO, warrant a little
... balance.
There are various types of ISP's. Some do not care one way or another about
spam, and either do not have acceptable use policies or do not enforce them.
As a result of providers like that, people are bombarded by obnoxious spam
every day. At the other extreme are (perhaps) providers like Valerie's, who
do police spam and do care about it. In my view, in general, the former
providers should be avoided (and prosecuted), and the latter should be
supported. I'd rather an occasional provider go a little too far in
policing spam than have one totally ignore the problem. (BTW, the providers
who actively fight spam are doing so in their own self-interest to some
extent, as self-regulation will help avoid stricter government regulation.)
Moreover, it is (probably) not a question of whether you, or I, or anyone
else on this group "minded" Valerie's posts. Most of us certainly did not.
It *is* a question of how that ISP *defines spam* in their own acceptable
use policy, and how they enforce it. No doubt, most of the participants in
the porn groups don't "mind" the stuff that is posted there; but if an ISP
shuts someone off for violating their AUP by posting such stuff, the fact
that the participants didn't "mind" is irrelevant.
I don't know, and I suspect you don't either, what Valerie's ISP says about
spam, or what exactly they said to Valerie. It *may* be that their AUP is
broad enough to prohibit the type of posts she made here, regardless of what
"we" think. IMO, that would probably mean that their AUP is too broad. But
again, I'd rather see that than the opposite, and if that is the case I
would advocate working with them to try to get them to see the light and
perhaps fashion a better policy, rather than get nasty with them. Perhaps
their heart is in the right place. I know the "hearts" of those at the
other extreme are *not* in the right place. It is also possible that
someone at her ISP simply misinterpreted the facts, in which case perhaps a
friendly effort to clarify would be appropriate. Again, nastiness is not in
order, IM*H*O.
Of course, if you are one of those who thinks that spam is OK, and that any
regulation of the Internet is bad, then please disregard this post. We
disagree on a fundamental level. Otherwise, these thoughts are offered as
friendly suggestions, and not intended to be confrontational. Please take
them as such.
Mark
Kevin Goodsell <good...@bridgernet.com> wrote in message
news:43s9ou4026uej0qh2...@4ax.com...
Bill Chandler
>Kevin, and others,
>
>I do not wish to be identified with whoever dislikes Valerie's posts.
>However, the strident responses I have seen here do, IMO, warrant a little
>... balance.
<snip>
Mark--I agree with you.
I did, however, want to point out to whoever was honked off over
Valerie's posts that they are on-topic and OK for RMMGA. Wouldn't
that mean that they aren't spam? (I'm not being confrontational,
really--I'm just wanting to clarify this in my own mind. I don't
consider what she posts as spam, any more than Adrian or El & Larry or
Howard or Lumpy or anyone else posting notice of their CD's and tours.
Hell's bells, if I ever get my s*** together enough to have a CD to
release myself, I'd like to be able to inflict it on everyone here
first...) (consider yourselves warned....buwahahahahaha!!!)
Alan Tignanelli
> Of course, if you are one of those who thinks that spam is OK, and that any
> regulation of the Internet is bad, then please disregard this post. We
> disagree on a fundamental level. Otherwise, these thoughts are offered as
> friendly suggestions, and not intended to be confrontational. Please take
> them as such.
I've gotta delurk for a moment to disagree with this. The problem, as I see it,
is not that Valerie's ISP took action against spam, it's the way they did it.
How would you feel if you posted something relevant to two groups, someone
reported it as spam, and you found your account shut off? It's the idea of a
knee-jerk reaction to an anonymous report that bugs me, and would have me
bailing on the ISP at the first possible convenience. If an ISP reacts that
way, they're as bad, if not worse, than an ISP that does nothing about spam.
Alan
J. Mark Lane
Bill Chandler <dr...@yourown.risk.com> wrote in message
news:84u9ouk3er1dh5e24...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:05:08 GMT, "J. Mark Lane"
> <mist...@worldnet.att.net> brewed up the following, and served it to
> the group:
>
> >Kevin, and others,
> >
> >I do not wish to be identified with whoever dislikes Valerie's posts.
> >However, the strident responses I have seen here do, IMO, warrant a
little
> >... balance.
>
> <snip>
>
> Mark--I agree with you.
>
> I did, however, want to point out to whoever was honked off over
> Valerie's posts that they are on-topic and OK for RMMGA. Wouldn't
I'm not sure, Bill. I think some ISP's prohibit *any* "commercial" use of
their service. Maybe they harken back to the days when the Internet was
totally non-commercial. I don't know. I suppose it's possibly more a
question of their AUP than any particular definition of spam. . . . . But
generally I think that if their AUP prohibits the types of things Valerie
tends to post, well, regardless of anything else, they are being too
restrictive. Just wanted to try to add some perspective, that's all.
Mark
J. Mark Lane
Alan Tignanelli <alantig...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:3D84FF58...@sprintmail.com...
That's a very good point, and one that I had overlooked. At the very least,
they should have emailed her and "advised" her of their position. Assuming
they didn't do that, I think they were out of line.
Mark
Larry Pattis
the new Lightfoot CD releases.
I wore the grooves off Old Dan's Records while I was in college, and I
immediately went out and purchased the CD.
What a flood of wonderful memories this music has unleashed. That's a
whole other thread topic, music and memories, that I may start in a day
or so. Strong feelings, warm memories, and more....
Meanwhile, thanks again Valerie, and to whomever reported her to her
ISP, well, 'jeez, give it a rest.'
--
Larry Pattis
LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
misifus
> Alan Tignanelli <alantig...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3D84FF58...@sprintmail.com...
>
> >
> > I've gotta delurk for a moment to disagree with this. The problem, as I
> see it,
> > is not that Valerie's ISP took action against spam, it's the way they did
> it.
> > How would you feel if you posted something relevant to two groups, someone
> > reported it as spam, and you found your account shut off? It's the idea
> of a
> > knee-jerk reaction to an anonymous report that bugs me, and would have me
> > bailing on the ISP at the first possible convenience. If an ISP reacts
> that
> > way, they're as bad, if not worse, than an ISP that does nothing about
> spam.
> >
> > Alan
>
> That's a very good point, and one that I had overlooked. At the very least,
> they should have emailed her and "advised" her of their position. Assuming
> they didn't do that, I think they were out of line.
>
> Mark
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't we have some similar incidents about a
year ago. Cases of one of the regulars posting messages which were in the vein
of what is usually posted, only to be anonymously denounced to their ISPs and
have their privileges curtailed? This all sounds familiar to me, and I wonder
if this is a sublte form of attack. As I recall, no one ever found out who the
mystery denouncer was before either. I find this all disturbing; more so
because announcements about very popular acoustic guitar players are something
I look forward to.
-Ralph
--
Misifus-
Ralph Seibert
mailto:rsei...@cox-internet.com
http://www.ralphandsue.com
Barry Rothman
searches for and polices any instance of cross-board posting. It has
nothing to do with posts that may not be totally relevant. This moron
doesn't read for content, but rather looks for what he thinks is cross
posting of commercial messages on Usenet. He is a self-appointed, self
annointed protector of Usenet and his own messages wherein he chastises
anyone who even responds jokingly to said spam take up just as much space as
the spam senders. That someone would spend all their waking hours policing
Usenet is a good indication of their insipid nature - and also that they
likely have an emotional/mental health problem!
So take heart, Valerie, it wasn't your Gordon Lightfoot alert, per se,
rather it was this moron's need to feel fulfilled by searching every Usenet
group for instances of spam. The very fact that this moron reported you to
your ISP after finding this one instance where you had a cross post with
plug for a CD you liked, is proof enough that something is wrong, adn not
with you. Personally, I would search for another ISP and then when you
cancel, call customer service at your current ISP and tell them that you
decided to dump then due to this incident.
foldedpath
news:84u9ouk3er1dh5e24...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:05:08 GMT, "J. Mark Lane"
> <mist...@worldnet.att.net> brewed up the following, and
served it to
> the group:
>
> >Kevin, and others,
> >
> >I do not wish to be identified with whoever dislikes
> >Valerie's posts. However, the strident responses I
> > have seen here do, IMO, warrant a little
> >... balance.
>
> <snip>
>
> Mark--I agree with you.
>
> I did, however, want to point out to whoever was
> honked off over Valerie's posts that they are on-topic
> and OK for RMMGA. Wouldn't that mean that they
> aren't spam? (I'm not being confrontational,
> really--I'm just wanting to clarify this in my own mind.
It may have been something the ISP considered a technical
violation, like the cross-post to two newsgroups, instead of
posting separate messages to each one. I'm just guessing here,
but maybe that's where this particular ISP draws the line?
Mike Barrs
Hedberg
<brot...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
[...]
> Personally, I would search for another ISP and then when you
>cancel, call customer service at your current ISP and tell them that you
>decided to dump then due to this incident.
>
Call customer service at your ISP? That's a good one.
Harold
Greg N.
> On the other hand, you do have to ask yourself, what if
> a fan of every major musical artist posted regular updates
> here? It could get to be a pain.
I don't think that follows. The speculation that *if* enough of people
posted the same type of thing, it *might* become a pain, could be used
against pretty much *any* kind of post.
Information about a new CD of an popular acoustic artist is valuable and
on topic here. I wouldn'd have learned about (and wouldn't have bought)
the new CDs of Jerry Douglas and James Taylor, had the information not
been posted here.
--
Greg N.
Greg N.
> I'd rather an occasional provider go a little too far in
> policing spam than have one totally ignore the problem.
I feel tempted to report you (completely unfoundedly) to your ISP for
spamming - just to find out whether your ISP is irreponsible enough to
cut you off without making the slightest attempt to verify my complaint.
Just kidding.
J. Mark Lane
just be confrontational. I stand by what I said. Especially the last two
sentences of the post from which you have now selectively quoted -- twice.
I enjoy your playing, BTW.
Mark
Greg N. <yodel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3D86492F...@yahoo.com...
Greg N.
> > > I'd rather an occasional provider go a little too far in
> > > policing spam than have one totally ignore the problem.
>
> I'm not really sure what your point is, other than an apparent desire to
> just be confrontational.
Come on. I said, >> Just kidding. Let me add a few smileys :) :) :).
OK?
I'm just saying that my opinion differs from yours. I'd rather see a
provider make a reasonable attempt to verify complaints before he cuts
off a customer. I think cutting off a customer based on an unverified
complaint (like in this case) is irresponsibe. You may or may not
agree, but why is what I said confrontational?
Barry Rothman
name of "Spam Cop" having complained to Valerie's ISP. This Spam Cop
moron is all over Usenet, attempting to protect the citizenry. Problem
is that he causes as many problems as he attempts to fix. He saw
Valerie's post - as a cross-posted commercial endorsement of the CD
mentioned. Add to that the fact that there is someone at Valerie's ISP
who acted rashly and you had a recipe for disaster.
I've seen this Spam Cop moron in action elsewhere and he is as much a
pain as the spam he attempts to battle. Kind of sad that someone spends
their waking hours chasing spam on usenet groups.
Joe Carpenter
>......Meanwhile, thanks again Valerie, and to whomever reported her to her
> ISP, well, 'jeez, give it a rest.'
Hey, that's my line.
Rgds,
Joe "Every royality check helps" Carpenter
http://www.joe-carpenter.com
6 & 12 String Guitar
J. Mark Lane
> I'm just saying that my opinion differs from yours. I'd rather see a
> provider make a reasonable attempt to verify complaints before he cuts
> off a customer.
I don't really think we disagree. I was trying to suggest that we cut some
slack to an ISP that actually appears to care about spam, even if they do
occasionally make an apparent mistake. I would prefer that the ISP do a
good job of enforcing their AUP. But I dislike those ISP's that do nothing
more than I dislike the ones who screw up trying to do something. If you
disagree with that, fine. If I misread your posts, I'm sorry.
Mark
Peter Huggins
not. It is a service.
Just thought that needed to be pointed out :-)
The only time I report spam to my ISP is when I get junk like
beastiality porn...(although the one that showed a guy who looked like
Osama Bin Laden with a mule was kinda funny). This does not really
happen all that much, the messages for human growth hormone, Viagara,
and inkjet cartridges are waay more frequent and annoying.
Grins, Peter
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/THISISTHE
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/unfinished3
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/KAYDELUXEELTROVADOR