Replace Taylor pickup

[elowens...@gmail.com]

I have a rare old Taylor John Ceyfus with the old Fishman pickup (piezo and mike). Now that I'm playing out more I notice that when plugged into a board and out to big Mackies this thing sounds like any other cheap acoustic only electrified. It loses all the air and wood tone it has naturally. Taylor says they will replace the Fishman with an expression system for $500 but I don't really like their sound either.
Any ideas about replacing the pickup to recapture the acoustic sound this guitar has. Thanks much
---> Ed

[hank alrich]

I would replace the pickup with the K&K Pure Mini system, and I would
purchase a Red-Eye acoustic instrument preamp from Fire-Eye Developments
in Austin TX to go along with that.


Disclaimer: I am listed as a dealer at the Fire-Eye website. That's hot
why I am recommending this setup. I personally use the system as
suggested in both of my McCollums, and Shaidri uses it in her 1969 J50.
We use the Red-Eyes with my mandolin and her violin, too.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[JD]

+1 on the K&K. Much more natural sounding than a
UST piezo. I don't know squat about the RedEye but
I do know Hank's a straight shooter and if it's
worth his time and talent to use and sell them
that's good enough for me.

[David L. Martel]

E,

Are you saying that the Fishman's work ok except when you are going into
Mackies or are you saying that you normally don't listen to your guitar with
amplification except when on stage? It's not clear to me why you think this
is a pick-up problem. You don't want to spend hundreds of dollars only to
find out that the problem is the sound guy.
Also, remember that in a band setting your finer tonal nuances will get
lost in the mix.

Dave M.

[hank alrich]

Okay, now your sanity is suspect, JD! <g>

I became the world's smallest Red-Eye dealer at Daren's insistence. I
resisted for over a year. I sell a few here and there. Mostly, I became
close to the man and the product and the process as a result of using
the preamp, and noting significant differences between it and nearly
every other similar product on the market.

It has no EQ. The original single-channel Red-Eye has no gain control.
Obviously, things were very different technically internally. I greatly
appreciated having such an excellent device. All of a sudden my old
Gibson mandolin with Fishman saddle pickup sounded like a mandolin, but
louder. The guitars sounded like guitars made of wood, instead of
plastic. The simplicity of the system suited my minimalist approach
perfectly.

I knew that some of the folks to whom I would be touting the product
were highly informed about tech matters, and there was little tech info
to offer. I sent Daren an email with a bunch of questions, and two days
later I got a reply, with a link to a tech talk page at his website. My
questions had formed the basis for that.

He started handing me the first unit of a new model, with the request to
see if I could find something wrong with its design or performance.

My involvement has led to some interessting applications. The most
interesting so far has been for Asleep at the Wheel. Their Helpinstill
piano pickup is basically three huge single-coil pickups. That's a
recipe for collecting all kinds of ariborne intereference like EMI and
RFI, and performance overall varied hugely from one sound system to the
next. I've known and worked with their FOH guy since 1972, and we got
the idea to try three of Daren's Dee-Eyes, which offer the same
circuitry, an input, an insert loop, and the XLR output, and run only on
phantom power. Problems solved, and for a very low cost. At this point
there are a few other Red-Eyes on the AATW stage, too.

The product is now attracting wider attention. I anticipate reviews in
well known string instrument and guitar oriented publications. Some high
level pickers have already taken notice and begun to use them. Ruby
Jane, young fiddle phenom, was playing in NYC with Mark O'Conner, using
her Red-Eye. Mark noted the purity of her sound and asked about the
little black box. She gave him hers. Leo Kottke recently took delivery
of one. The list could go on considerably. The down-to-earth of the deal
is that if one is using a passive system, many of the more widely
distributed and better known devices pale in comparison the the
Red-Eyes.

It's very instructive to hear what happens when one connects a Red-Eye
to a fine mic preamp. Preamps in oridnary gear are very nuch better than
they used to be, but they still fall far short of the good stuff. This
is not a put-down of the cheaper stuff, because it's very good for what
it costs, vastly improved over earlier kit. Put a world-class contender
in place of a Mackie, A&H, or other such preamp and all of a sudden the
Red-Eye gets spooky close to the sound of a good mic through the same
preamp. Connected to my Great RIver MP2-MH the sound is not far from
that of my Schoeps CMC6 w/MK4 capsule into the very same preamp. This is
a remarkable result, an appreciable advance over the PADI i used to
have, and even over some DI's Ive used that weigh a ton and cost a
fortune. I sold my Evil Twin when I could see that I was going to be
touring again on a small scale, and bought the Baggs, with tears in my
ear. Along came the Red-Eye and now if there are any shortcomings in my
amplified acoustic guitar sound they are all down to my own shortcomings
as a player.

[hub...@ccanoemail.com]

>touring again on a small scale, and bought the Baggs,

> - - - with tears in my ear. - - -

>Along came the Red-Eye and now if there are any shortcomings in my
>amplified acoustic guitar sound they are all down to my own shortcomings
>as a player.

- - - with tears in my ear. - - -

I hope that means - little droplets of saline ..
... not painful gashes !
John T.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[natena...@gmail.com]

I cannot comment on the pickup as I'm not a steel string guy, but I will second third and fourth hank's assertion of the red eye preamp. It is a remarkable box. I don't want to live without mine.

[elowens...@gmail.com]

Nope, I'm saying that this guitar sounds great unplugged but when plugging into a board and out through PA it loses all the acoustic qualities I like. Thanks
---> Ed

[JD]

On 10/22/2013 6:31 AM, elowens...@gmail.com wrote:
> Nope, I'm saying that this guitar sounds great unplugged but when plugging into a board and out through PA it loses all the acoustic qualities I like. Thanks
> ---> Ed
>

Just so your expectations don't get too high,
you'll never get all of the acoustic qualities
back regardless of what you plug into. Staying far
from Taylor's Expression system and UST piezos in
general is a good start.

[Tony Done]

Thanks for commenting. Good to know the opinion of someone outside the
group regulars. - And having watched a couple of your vids, I'm inclined
to take it seriously.

--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[David L. Martel]

Ed,

> Nope, I'm saying that this guitar sounds great unplugged but when plugging
> into a board and out through PA it loses all the acoustic qualities I
> like.

A PA is a system with a lot of components where things can go wrong or be
misadjusted. Why do you assume that the pickups are the problem?
A bad sound guy can ruin the sounds that he has control over.
Take your instrument to a local shop and play through a small acoustic
amp. If you can't get good sound with the salesman's help then you may have
a pickup problem.
Pickup technology continues to improve and a new pickup system may fix
your problem but lets look at the PA first.

[hank alrich]

The old Fishman piezo does not sound great no matter what we do with it.

You can look at the PA if you play only one venue. Beyond that I want a
setup I know is sending goodness down the line. I can usually keep the
sound op from screwing it up too badly.

[hank alrich]

Tony Done <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> On 22/10/2013 3:16 PM, natena...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I cannot comment on the pickup as I'm not a steel string guy, but I
> > will second third and fourth hank's assertion of the red eye preamp.
> > It is a remarkable box. I don't want to live without mine.
> >
>
> Thanks for commenting. Good to know the opinion of someone outside the
> group regulars. - And having watched a couple of your vids, I'm inclined
> to take it seriously.

Not to pile on, but Nate's a great picker.

[David L. Martel]

Hank,

Though Ed does not mention model # he does say the magic words "piezo and
mike". I know that lots of folks are not happy with piezo pickups but he's
got 2 options for sound and is unhappy with both of them. He's not getting
decent sound from the piezo or the mic. I'd look further down the signal
path before I'd spend any money, but I'm really, really cheap

Dave M.

[hank alrich]

David L. Martel <mart...@frontier.com> wrote:

The mic will be a cheap electret, and considerable progress has been
made there, too.

I agree that he should dig deeply enough to make sure the problem is
actually with the pickup + mic rig. That said, this is a mediocre rig to
start with.

[natena...@gmail.com]

Yeah and even though it's piezo and mic, the piezo is junk and the mic, while also junk, is inside the box. A worse sound I never heard than the inside of a guitar.

The problem here is that a "pickup" by it's very nature will never sound like a miked guitar. It can't. Your best bet is to get an amplified sound that works and treat it as a separate, amplified sound.

[Jonathan]

Have you tried the Fishman Aura system?
It's built into my Godin Ambience nylon string and it sounds pretty decent, although I haven't tried amplifying a steel string guitar with one.

[hank alrich]

I have played one of Andrew Hardin's guitars with that system. Sounded
good in a "digital" sounding way. It offers one the opportunity to run
one's guitar signal through a digital emulation of this or that guitar.

That's not for me, but others may like it fine. Andrew got a Red-Eye for
another guitar of his.

> It's built into my Godin Ambience nylon string and it sounds pretty
>decent, although I haven't tried amplifying a steel string guitar with
>one.
>

It will work the same regardless of guitar type.

I remain insistent on simplicity for my use. If I could travel easily
with it I'd carry the Great River MP4 and feed it our vox and Red-Eyes.

[natena...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:18:43 PM UTC-4, hank alrich wrote:
>
>
>
> I remain insistent on simplicity for my use. If I could travel easily
>
> with it I'd carry the Great River MP4 and feed it our vox and Red-Eyes.
>
>
>
> --
>
> shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
>
> HankandShaidriMusic.Com
>
> YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

I hate the aura. It's such an unnatural playing experience.

Hank, if you grabbed a benchmark pre420 you'd have 4 channels of the good pres AND a mix bus.

I keep thinking of getting a speck preamp and eq to carry around, but I sort of want to find a small NON switching power amp to go with it and start backlining a full range cab. I'm having more negative experiences than positives with playing through the monitors on most gigs now and I'd rather take that aspect of control away from the operators. I have these little 8" coaxial cabs that I love and I wish I could find a way to travel an entire little rig, but that won't really happen for some time.

But I digress. The Aura is not the answer. A good pickup and a red eye is all you need. And good speakers to reproduce what you're giving them!

[elowens...@gmail.com]

So I've made a decision based on Hank's post. I've ordered a K&K mini and the Fire-Eye outboard preamp. I will have the K&K installed right next to the Fishman that came with the guitar since I don't want to mess with that hole in the side of the guitar. Then I will be able to A/B them. I'll let y'all know how it sounds. Thanks for all the replies.
---> Ed

[Tony Done]

A report will be of much interest to many of us.

As others have said, don't expect an accurate reproduction of the
guitars acoustic sound - even that is different from the front and back.
Just go for something you are comfortable with, even if it does sound
like a different guitar; the audience mostly won't notice either way.
FWIW, I found I could pretty much put up with anything within reason as
long as string-to-string balance was where I liked it and I could roll
off some treble.

[Tony Done]

I don't suppose you happen to know how the Red Eye goes with Schatten
bug piezos? I know they won't drive my Maton preamp.

[hank alrich]

Tony Done <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> I don't suppose you happen to know how the Red Eye goes with Schatten
> bug piezos? I know they won't drive my Maton preamp.

Not directly, Tony, but here's the gist of my experience so far.

The first design goal was for a device that worked optimally with
passive piezo pickups. In that regard I have personal experience using
Red-Eyes with K&K's for guitars, with a Fishman saddle pickup on my
mandolin, with a Baggs violin pickup, and with the David Gage pickups
for upright bass and cello. Consistently excellent results with all of
those.

In the passive pickup regard I have used the Red-Eye with Gibson
humbucker and Fender single-coil guitar pickups, Fender basses, and a
variety of soundhole pickups, including the Bill Lawrence I have. The
results were excellent, and I hadn't really anticipated that with these
electromagentic pickups. Even the designer was surprised by this. (He is
a remarkably modest man.)

Folks around the world now are using the Red-Eyes with a variety of
passive piezo systems. I can't see why it wouldn't work well with the
Schatten, but I haven't gotten to try that.

[Tony Done]

Thanks Hank, I hadn't even thought about the magnetic pickup
capabilities. - Which is a major interest of mine.

[natena...@gmail.com]

I actually have used it with a schatten stick on pickup. It's wonderful. I have the schatten for miscellaneous duty- I initially bought it for charlie byrd's Ramirez because I'm not drilling that guitar!

I've also used the Redeye a lot with magnetic pickups. I often use it with my arch top electric to play direct into a sound system. I've used it with upright bass players with the gage pickup, and I've gotten wonderful recorded sounds with fender basses in the studio. I'd like to buy about 4 more "dee eyes" for various uses at some point.

My main guitar has a Barbera saddle transducer and that is my main use of the red eye and it is fantastic as well.

[Tony Done]

How do you think it affects the sound of magnetics, if at all?

[hank alrich]

Tony Done <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> On 24/10/2013 2:02 PM, natena...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I actually have used it with a schatten stick on pickup. It's
> > wonderful. I have the schatten for miscellaneous duty- I initially
> > bought it for charlie byrd's Ramirez because I'm not drilling that
> > guitar!
> >
> > I've also used the Redeye a lot with magnetic pickups. I often use
> > it with my arch top electric to play direct into a sound system.
> > I've used it with upright bass players with the gage pickup, and I've
> > gotten wonderful recorded sounds with fender basses in the studio.
> > I'd like to buy about 4 more "dee eyes" for various uses at some
> > point.
> >
> > My main guitar has a Barbera saddle transducer and that is my main
> > use of the red eye and it is fantastic as well.
> >
>
> How do you think it affects the sound of magnetics, if at all?

Nada, in my experience.

A young friend, very good player, was on stage about to start soundcheck
at a festival in the mountains. His guitar for the day was an old cheap
Gibson archtop with a Bill Lawrence pickup. It wasn't going well with
whateer DI he had (in addition to his little amp on stage). I handed him
a Red-Eye and said "Try this". He did. Done deal. It's what he uses now
in those situations.

[don hindenach]

you will never use the Fishman again.

--
-donh-
donh at audiosys dot com