Fungus makes Wood Sound better!
Wamp
Interesting to say the least.
A post about treatment of violin making wood using a type of fungus is
exciting to me, as an instrument maker.A friend and I've already expermented
with borax and salt water treatment of top and back woods for mandolin
construction with amazing results. We have played several instruments in
the white without treating the wood, leaving the wood unfinished, then
treating the wood and playing again. My personal judgement is that the
treatment of the wood resulted in a much, much better sounding instrument,
and when I added the Red Henry type bridge, it also improved the instrument
about the same amount.
I have been building instruments and doing research on building insturments
and studying musical sounds for about 30 years, and so far, these two
developments have been the most promising for improving the sound of
mandolins, vkiolins, and guitars.
I had not intended to say anything about borax and salt water wood
treatment since it is common knowledge now, but with this article about the
fungus treatment I just had to speak out, since both methods of treatment
seem to be getting results by changing the cellular structure of the wood.
Wonder how long it will be until someone designs a synthetic substitue for
wood for musical instruments. (Other than the present carbon fiber
material.)
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/91900/-quot-mushroom-violin-quot-outplays-stradivarius.html
--
Wamp
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Wamp
A friend of mine heads the violin shop at a nearby university and teaches
violin construction along with building and repairing of high end violins.
He has done extensive research into the treatment of woods. I hate to
reveal too much of the content of our discussions because he says that there
is quite a bit of competitiveness in this area amongst several of his peers.
Anyhow, he boils his wood with a variety of ingredients but primarily uses
copper sulfate as an additive to remove inorganic material from the wood. I
guess copper sulfate is the primary chemical used to maintain algae control
in fish tanks. He came upon this technique from an apothecary manuscript he
found when in Italy. The idea being that the inorganic material within the
wood cell structure is what traps moisture in the wood. By removing it
then there is nothing left to trap moisture and or "choke" the tone of the
wood. After boiling, he skims the oil from the wood off the top and
reintroduces it back to the wood by adding it to his varnish.
--
Wamp
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"Wamp" <SPAMFROMTHE...@fbico.com> wrote in message
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Bob Dorgan
Interesting articles, Tim, but boiling the wood sounds painful.
You southern boys are taking the term self abuse too literally.
dorgan
Ed Edelenbos
"Bob Dorgan" <dor...@fltg.net> wrote in message
news:3dOdnWWdaMvYtZHW...@posted.fingerlakestechnologygroup...
>
>
> Interesting articles, Tim, but boiling the wood sounds painful.
>
> You southern boys are taking the term self abuse too literally.
>
>
> dorgan
>
Sheesh... and what came to my mind was how *ingesting* fungus has
definitely enhanced music in my past.
Ed
John Sorell
>
>
> Interesting articles, Tim, but boiling the wood sounds painful.
>
> You southern boys are taking the term self abuse too literally.
>
>
> dorgan
>
>
You should probably use your microwave and get it over quickly.
John
Tony Done
Spalted (fungus-decomposed) timber is becoming fashionable as a decorative
veneer timber for electric guitars, but it is too fragile and variable to be
used in a structural way. I can see that treating timber for a small amount
of decomposition could be beneficial. It makes a bit more sense to me, as an
occasional mycologist, than a lot of the other muck and mystery stuff (like
copper sulphate!!) that has been associated with improved violin tones.
Tony D
Misifus
Nah, it was all in your head. :)
-Raf
--
Misifus-
Rafael Seibert
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rafiii
home: http://www.rafandsioux.com
Ed Edelenbos
"Misifus" <rafse...@att.net> wrote in message
news:7n325gF...@mid.individual.net...
> Ed Edelenbos wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Bob Dorgan" <dor...@fltg.net> wrote in message
>> news:3dOdnWWdaMvYtZHW...@posted.fingerlakestechnologygroup...
>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting articles, Tim, but boiling the wood sounds painful.
>>>
>>> You southern boys are taking the term self abuse too literally.
>>>
>>>
>>> dorgan
>>>
>>
>> Sheesh... and what came to my mind was how *ingesting* fungus has
>> definitely enhanced music in my past.
>>
>> Ed
>
>
> Nah, it was all in your head. :)
>
> -Raf
>
LOL! I'm going to have to reread some of those Oliver Sacks books. Isn't
all perception up there, whether distorted or not?
Ed
Madgamer
Larry A
Madgamer
fungus infected.
Larry A
persisten...@yahoo.com
wrote:
I couldn't disagree more.
The Ellastone has spalted maple B/S and it's as good as any other
guitar I've played with the exeption of a couple of Kinscherff's and
one of Lance McCollums.
It's too delicate a sound for fingerpicking (but then it's a small
jumbo so it's never going to project like an 00 anyway), but
flatpicked the sound (and projection) is huge.
Nor is it in any way fragile - one of the reasons I bought it was
because even a clumsy oaf like me couldn't get it to break up even
under extreme duress.
Most of the English contributors here have played it. It even
recovered from Hawkins doing something otherworldly with the tuning...
Pete
persisten...@yahoo.com
Typical.
P
Wamp
Naw.... in the south we'd just batter and deep fry it!
Boilings is for peanuts and removing hog hair...
--
Wamp
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"Bob Dorgan" <dor...@fltg.net> wrote in message
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>
>
kol_isha
fungus and mold to add a little pzazzz to things.
--
Best,
Arlene
--------------------------------------
"Kol_Isha" - A Woman's Voice
Misifus
> No wonder my guitars sound so terrific. Nothing like a little South Florida
> fungus and mold to add a little pzazzz to things.
>
Traditionally, the fungus does its thing BEFORE the guitar is built. :)
Tony Done
<persisten...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:iefqg5ll2g0v52ovr...@4ax.com...
Spalting, by it very nature is going to produce timber with highly variable
properties, so maybe we could compromise and say that spalted timber is
generally variable in strength and other physical properties and therefore
unsuited to mass production. - One of the acoustic timber/parts suppliers
(Warmoth?) notes that it has to be treated with care. Because of the
variability it would be possible to find pieces eminently suitable for b&s,
but I personally would worry about things like cracking with age.
Tony D
Misifus
That sounds to me like just the wood to be handled with loving care by
an individual luthier, building one at a time.
David Hajicek
"Ed Edelenbos" <ed...@spookeasy.net> wrote in message
news:7n346pF...@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> "Misifus" <rafse...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:7n325gF...@mid.individual.net...
>> Ed Edelenbos wrote:
>>
>> Nah, it was all in your head. :)
>>
>> -Raf
>>
>
> LOL! I'm going to have to reread some of those Oliver Sacks books. Isn't
> all perception up there, whether distorted or not?
>
> Ed
They say perception is reality (too often, in my opinion).
Does that mean that if I walk out into Hwy 35W and step in front of that
fully loaded big Mack truck barreling down the road at 85or so, but I don't
"perceive" it - that truck is really not there and I won't have any problem?
Dave Hajicek
David Hajicek
This is some pretty interesting stuff to me. I don't know that I agree with
all that is said, but some of it makes good sense.
Namely, the Borax treatment would tend to polymerize organic material inside
the cell walls, making the wood more stiff with less loss. Also any residue
would help kill fungus. What is the purpose of the salt water? I would
think that doesn't enter into the reaction? This sounds like a good thing
to try.
Copper sulfate is primarily to kill fungi or other buggies eating the wood.
It is illegal for wood treatment for houses and such for environmental
reasons. It does a good job of killing fish and plants also. I don't have
any idea what it would do to the wood (except give it a blue or green tint?)
Boiling the wood (or some other method) to remove free oils sounds like a
good thing. Wouldn't a strong detergent help for this (I realize it is not
period, but lye soap was available)?
I dislike the idea of treatment with fungus (eat away the wood) as this is a
hard process to control accurately and how to you "turn off" the fungus when
just enough wood has been eaten away? What happens to all the detritus
inside the cells from the fungus? How is that eliminated? Why not start
with a less dense wood in the first place?
Please tell me more.
Thanks.
Dave Hajicek
"Wamp" <SPAMFROMTHE...@fbico.com> wrote in message
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Ed Edelenbos
news:acmdndmjdK6LjZPW...@skypoint.com...
I think that would delve into the realm of death perception. (grin)
Ed
alcarruth
main problem I see with it is that the judgement is based on a playing/
listening test, and these are notoriously unrelaible. Very seldom does
the audience do any better than probability in picking out an
instrument, but the player is usually well aware of how good the thing
is. In trying to pick out the 'best' one the results generally vary a
lot from day to day.
The fungus used seems to eat out the hemicellulose, which makes up
about 25% of the structural weight of the wood. It's basically a
'filler' in the with the lignin 'glue' that hlds things together. It's
a branched chain polysaccaride, and breaks down naturally over time
into CO2 and H2O. That's why old wood tends to be less dense, and a
bit less stiff, than new wood of the same species, on the average.
Some makers I know stew their wood in water, which accomplishes the
same thing but faster.
As with all such claims, time will tell. If it's really as great as
the folks promoting it say, then pretty soon we'll all be doing it
just to remain competitive. Personally, I'm skeptical of all the
'magic bullet' approaches, and I've been building and studying
acoustics for more than thirty years myself.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
Tom from Texas
The problem would lie with the people who are left behind to miss and mourn
ye. Please, do not try that experiment... okay?
--
Tom from Texas
(The Tom Risner Fund for Deserving North Texas Guitarplayers is not liable
for any slander, hurt feelings, pointless moaning, or achy-breaky heartache
any post under this name should cause. Yall want easy cash or sympathy...
ye can kiss my grits!!)
Misifus
Of course not, I-35W is a figment of your imagination.
David Hajicek
"Tom from Texas" <tris...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:hemhl4$o93$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Dave Hajicek
hank alrich
> No wonder my guitars sound so terrific. Nothing like a little South Florida
> fungus and mold to add a little pzazzz to things.
Y'all got fungamental meaujeaux thang goin' _on_
--
ha
shut up and play your guitar
http://www.armadillomusicproductions.com/CarryMeHome.htm
http://hankalrich.com/
moobinsikau
> "Ed Edelenbos" <e...@spookeasy.net> wrote in message
>
> news:7n346pF...@mid.individual.net...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Misifus" <rafseib...@att.net> wrote in message
> >news:7n325gF...@mid.individual.net...
> >> Ed Edelenbos wrote:
> snip>>
>
> >> Nah, it was all in your head. :)
>
> >> -Raf
>
> > LOL! I'm going to have to reread some of those Oliver Sacks books. Isn't
> > all perception up there, whether distorted or not?
>
> > Ed
>
> They say perception is reality (too often, in my opinion).
>
> Does that mean that if I walk out into Hwy 35W and step in front of that
> fully loaded big Mack truck barreling down the road at 85or so, but I don't
> "perceive" it - that truck is really not there and I won't have any problem?
>
>
> - Zitierten Text anzeigen -
Although absolutely nothing exists "really" (from its own side) this
does not contradict the fact that phaenomena have a function. In your
case: your only conventional existing self will be flattened by the
only conventional existig truck. Interesting, isn't it ? But probably
this will be perceived as a problem ;-)
Wamp
I am only passing on threads from a Mandolin Group actually ;-) that a
friend is on, he thought the discussion was interesting and sent me a few of
the threads, it's getting quite technical at this point... See below.
> >
> I actually worked in a wood chemistry lab for three years as a lab
> specialist at VA Tech. We were steam exploding wood and then extracting
> the lignin using strong alkali and then trying to propoxylate the lignin
> for a feedstock for rigid polyurethane foam. From what I know about the
> composition of wood, cellulose makes up roughly 1/2 of its total. Lignin,
> which some people call "creosote" when it oozes out of the log in the
> campfire, is the glue that helps hold wood together. It's what makes brown
> paper bags brown and is extracted as black liquor at the paper mill. It
> makes up about 1/4 of wood. The remaining roughly 1/4 is made of various
> hemicelluloses. I believe this is what folks are trying to remove from the
> wood using fungi. Hemicelluloses are made of five carbon sugars instead of
> six carbon sugars like glucose. We don't have enzymes to break cellulose
> or hemicelluloses and some of the "soluble fiber" that we eat but don't
> digest are these hemicelluloses. Xylan, made from the five carbon sugar
> xylose, is one of the common ones. In Europe, they extract xylose from
> pulp and convert it to xylitol as a dietary sweetener, since it tastes
> sweet but we can't digest it. Note that one of the fungi that was
> mentioned even had a genus name of Xylaria. My guess is that the fungi
> that they are using are growing through the wood vessels and digesting
> extracellularly the hemicelluloses which are sort of hard gummy in
> consistency. This may be selectively removing mass from the wood so that
> the remaining structure can vibrate more freely. I also suspect that it
> weakens the structure as well.
>
> So, when you eat some plum pudding for Thanksgiving or Christmas, think
> about how that natural gooey fiber is full of hemicelluloses and keeps you
> regular! Or eat a few prunes and think about how hard it would be to get
> them to resonate! :-)
>
> Happy Thanksgiving!
>
> Woody
From wood to dietary sweetners, hmmmmm...
Anyway, if your interested I can get you a link to the site.
Les Cargill
> kol_isha <kol_ishaR...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No wonder my guitars sound so terrific. Nothing like a little South Florida
>> fungus and mold to add a little pzazzz to things.
>
> Y'all got fungamental meaujeaux thang goin' _on_
>
nik nik nik swamp.
--
Les Cargill
Madgamer
never met you are my second best guitar person right behind Scott
Baxendale. I always read your advice and your posts are always
interesting and informational, thanks again
Larry A
David Hajicek
Yes please. This is very similar to discussions we have on our
LeftbrainLutherie group. My e-mail address is real.
Dave Hajicek
Wamp
These emails were copied from the
COM...@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU
which is a mandolin list server that my friend was on, I am sure you can
subscribe to the listserve and I think that will be the only way to see the
entire thread as he didn't read it all nor save what he had.
not sure this helps...
However here is a link to the archives
http://listserv.nodak.edu/archives/comando.html
--
Wamp
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"David Hajicek" <haj...@skypoint.com> wrote in message
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David Hajicek
> David,
>
> These emails were copied from the
> COM...@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU
> which is a mandolin list server that my friend was on, I am sure you can
> subscribe to the listserve and I think that will be the only way to see
> the entire thread as he didn't read it all nor save what he had.
>
> not sure this helps...
>
> However here is a link to the archives
> http://listserv.nodak.edu/archives/comando.html
>
> --
> Wamp
Dave