B-Band Installations
Steven Dillon
I've been reading the archives trying to find out what you folks
think about certain pickups. It seems that quite a few of you
have B-Bands installed in your guitars. With all the problems
I've had with my Highlander (and it was put in by the builder),
I'm extremely cautious about having a B-Band installed. From
what I remember from past discussions, the B-Band is hands
down the hardest pickup to get installed correctly so that you
get good balance.
If you have a B-Band (or even if you had one that you liked),
could you tell me what type of guitar and, more importantly,
who installed it. I'm willing to drive half a day one way to get
this done right (if I decide to go with B-Band that is). That
would cover the DC, MD, VA, NC, PA, WV, and KY areas...
Someone must know how to do it right in an area that large... Hopefully....
:-/
Keep Picking,
Steven Dillon
--
http://www.stevendillon.com
http://mp3.com/stevendillon
Larry Pattis
The current B-Band UST product is perhaps the easiest of all saddle
transducers to install. All modular plugs (no soldering anywhere), and
you should get perfect string to string volume balance either right
away, or definitely after letting the UST settle within 2-3 days of
installation. I have heard of some continuing problems on Taylors that
have the curved bridge pin placement, but I haven't worked with any of
these guitars specifically, so I can't comment about them first hand.
However, if your Highlander was installed according to spec in your
guitar, chances are that you will need a new bridge to utilize any
other saddle element, or to even pull out the Highlander and simply but
your saddle back in without any UST. Proper installation of a
Highlander requires that you route out the saddle slot to a half-moon
shape so that the coaxial cable is 'cupped' the full length of the
slot. Same for the bottom of the saddle, although that is easily
replaced.
Once you determine how your Highlander was actually installed you can
procede to make some decisions about what to do next.
Meanwhile, I suggest that you visit the B-band website to look over
their new gear due out in March. http://www.b-band.com
--
Larry Pattis
LP "at" larrypattis "dot" com
MKarlo
area). My second one is a dual source, also installed in a Taylor (LKSM-6) and
it was installed by me. I have had no balance problems at all. I did have a
some problems with weak output, but Heikke through Tony with FQMS sent me a new
transducer and that took care of it. Great product, especially the dual
source. It outperforms my old Fishman setup hands down.
Mitch
In article <dWGa8.5329$St3.1...@news2.east.cox.net>, "Steven Dillon"
<la...@earthlink.net> writes:
Mitch
Gordon
generation) in my Taylor 714 and I could never could get the string
balance right with the B-Band (didn't have a problem with the other
two). The break angle from the saddle to the saddle holes has to be
the same for all six strings to achieve proper string balance for the
B-Band. Since I have the half moon smiley Taylor bridge pin
configuration, this made it a difficult to get the angles correct
without modifying the saddle slots. Using all kinds of paper shims
helped but dropped the output considerably and I still had string
balance problems when changing tunings. The new 4th generation
B-bands UST should have less string balance problems since they are
stiffer than the old designs. I may try the new one in the future
since really liked the B-Band UST over any other UST I've tried in
terms of sound.
GL
Michael A. Wong
I have to-date installed at least 6 maybe 7 B-Band UST's
from 2nd and 3rd generations and they been absolute no brainers.
Very easy to install and I have yet to have any balance problems
with the exception of one element that I finally damaged beyond
serviceability after yanking it in and our of 3 different guitars.
(Some experimentation I was doing).
To add to Larry's comments on the Highlander, if it WAS installed
correctly and the proper channel routed, in order to "de-install" in
correctly
you'll need to take it to a competent tech and have the bottom of the slot
re-routed flat again and then a new taller saddle needs to be cut.
Then you can install any new pickup of choice the B-Band UST only
requiring very minimal further saddle adjustment if at all.
MW-
"Steven Dillon" <la...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:dWGa8.5329$St3.1...@news2.east.cox.net...
Larry Pattis
<mwo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Steve,
>
> I have to-date installed at least 6 maybe 7 B-Band UST's
> from 2nd and 3rd generations and they been absolute no brainers.
> Very easy to install and I have yet to have any balance problems
> with the exception of one element that I finally damaged beyond
> serviceability after yanking it in and our of 3 different guitars.
> (Some experimentation I was doing).
> To add to Larry's comments on the Highlander, if it WAS installed
> correctly and the proper channel routed, in order to "de-install" in
> correctly
> you'll need to take it to a competent tech and have the bottom of the slot
> re-routed flat again and then a new taller saddle needs to be cut.
This is a definite fix, and my error in not mentioning it. The tone of
the guitar may change significantly, however, the deeper you route.
And some guitars don't have as much wood there to start with, which can
be a larger problem when re-routing.
So you'll have to start by seeing what sort of installation was done,
and then you can determine if Michael's suggestion can work.
I hope it does!
> Then you can install any new pickup of choice the B-Band UST only
> requiring very minimal further saddle adjustment if at all.
>
> MW-
--
MKarlo
<Larry...@NoSpam.aaa> writes:
Can you do the Zyla Method with the clay and make a smooth surface down in the
saddle slot I wonder? (Where has John been?!?)
I didn't realize the Highlander required this kind of mod to the saddle slot
for it to work. That would knock it out of the running for me, I don't care
how good it sounds.
Mitch
Michael McCollum
"Steven Dillon" <la...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:dWGa8.5329$St3.1...@news2.east.cox.net...
> I've been reading the archives trying to find out what you folks
> think about certain pickups. It seems that quite a few of you
> have B-Bands installed in your guitars. With all the problems
> I've had with my Highlander (and it was put in by the builder),
> I'm extremely cautious about having a B-Band installed. From
> what I remember from past discussions, the B-Band is hands
> down the hardest pickup to get installed correctly so that you
> get good balance.
>
> If you have a B-Band (or even if you had one that you liked),
> could you tell me what type of guitar and, more importantly,
> who installed it. I'm willing to drive half a day one way to get
> this done right (if I decide to go with B-Band that is). That
> would cover the DC, MD, VA, NC, PA, WV, and KY areas...
> Someone must know how to do it right in an area that large...
Hopefully....
Steven...Marguerite at Fret Not. Went in my D16H just right the very first
time..no problem. Call me by the way...need directions for Saturday.
Mike
George Reiswig
I'd be very surprised if you had any difficulty with the current
generation B-Band UST. They've done a lot of work on solving the balance
issue, with great success. And their new AST's are mighty nice, too!
George Reiswig
Song of the River Music
"Steven Dillon" <la...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:dWGa8.5329$St3.1...@news2.east.cox.net...
Tom Loredo
>
> I've installed a Fishman Matrix I, PUTW Aircore and B-Band UST (3rd
> generation) in my Taylor 714 and I could never could get the string
> balance right with the B-Band (didn't have a problem with the other
> two). The break angle from the saddle to the saddle holes has to be
> the same for all six strings to achieve proper string balance for the
> B-Band.
This is not true in my experience. I think there is probably
some other problem if you are having balance problems in this setting.
My Olson has a curved pattern of saddle
holes. The 1st generation B-Band required some shimming, but
it was not any more difficult to balance than any other undersaddle
pickup I've tried. The later generations, which added a thin,
compressive strip for "self-balancing," had minimal balance
problems. As Larry said, there is probably no current undersaddle
pickup around that (in general) is easier to install than the
current B-Band UST. However, every guitar is different....
Also Larry's point about your current Highlander install is very
much worth echoing: A correct Highlander install requires modification
of the saddle bottom and possible the saddle slot bottom that will
make installation of *any* subsequent undersaddle pickup
problematic.
Is your heart really set on an undersaddle? I currently have
the B-Band AST pickup in my Olson. To my ears it sounds significantly
better than any undersaddle pickup (including the UST). It is
also trivially easy to install if you already have an endpin hole.
(Though note that for a long time--and perhaps still--Highlander
required a nonstandard endpin jack hole size.) It sticks on
the bridge plate. Like any soundboard transducer, it is probably
less immune to feedback than an undersaddle, though so far I have
not had any problems with it. Going this route (or with some other
similar pickup like the McIntyre Feather or the PUTW) will save
you from having to mess with the saddle.
Peace,
Tom Loredo
Gordon
<lor...@astro.cornell.edu> wrote:
>
>This is not true in my experience. I think there is probably
>some other problem if you are having balance problems in this setting.
>My Olson has a curved pattern of saddle
>holes. The 1st generation B-Band required some shimming, but
>it was not any more difficult to balance than any other undersaddle
>pickup I've tried. The later generations, which added a thin,
>compressive strip for "self-balancing," had minimal balance
>problems. As Larry said, there is probably no current undersaddle
>pickup around that (in general) is easier to install than the
>current B-Band UST. However, every guitar is different....
Pekka Rintala, the prez of B-band told me this at the NAMM show. He
asked if I had the smiley Taylor and when I said yes, he immedieately
told me about the same break angle for all the strings. He also told
me the 4th generation B-band UST is more immune to the balance
problems than my 3rd generation because of the increase in stiffness.
I have the B-band in my Baby Taylor now which doesn't have the smiley
saddle holes and I still have balance issues although not nearly as
bad as it was in my 714CE. I know it's not the saddle slot or saddle
because both the Fishman Matrix and PUTW Aircore I've tried in my
714CE has no string balance problems. What I haven't tried and I
probably will try this week is replacing the UST. The guys at B-band
gave me a couple of extra 3rd generation B-band USTs to check if the
one I have is bad (extremely nice of them to do this).
Pekka also mentioned that I can replace the UST with their new AST and
still use my New Frontier preamp. I might go this route instead of
replacing the UST with the 4th generation UST.
GL
MKarlo
<lor...@astro.cornell.edu> writes:
Still liking the B-Band AST, eh Tom. So is that the only pickup source in your
Olson? I'd like to go to a single source inside the guitar that would render
the true tone of my instrument, and get the battery out and the strip out from
under my saddle. Does your AST cover all those bases? What's the optimum
input impedance for it?
Curious Geor, uh, Mitch
Mitch
Steven Dillon
><snip>
>
>Meanwhile, I suggest that you visit the B-band website to look over
>their new gear due out in March. http://www.b-band.com
>
Man, it's too bad some of that stuff isn't available right now!
There is some good looking gear on their page...
Thanks for the info.
Steven Dillon
><snip>
>
>problems. As Larry said, there is probably no current undersaddle
>pickup around that (in general) is easier to install than the
>current B-Band UST. However, every guitar is different....
>
That's very good to hear. I had only heard how damn hard
they were to get balanced.
>Also Larry's point about your current Highlander install is very
>much worth echoing: A correct Highlander install requires modification
>of the saddle bottom and possible the saddle slot bottom that will
>make installation of *any* subsequent undersaddle pickup
>problematic.
>
I'm not going to completely give up on the Highlander just
yet. I've still got EQ to play with and mixed with my Sunrise,
I still may be able to correct the balance issues. If I can't
get the balance right, then I'm just going to have to either 1)
sell the Webber or 2) figure out a different way of amplifying
it...
>Is your heart really set on an undersaddle? I currently have
>the B-Band AST pickup in my Olson. To my ears it sounds significantly
>better than any undersaddle pickup (including the UST). It is
>also trivially easy to install if you already have an endpin hole.
>
What do you think about running both of them together (the UST
and the AST that is)?
I'm not sure my heart is set on the UST... It's just that's all I've
ever used and I don't know how much an AST is going to change
my sound. I know this is blasphemous, but I'm not completely an
a acoustic purist.... The natural sound is good, but I love to be
plugged in...
>(Though note that for a long time--and perhaps still--Highlander
>required a nonstandard endpin jack hole size.) It sticks on
>the bridge plate. Like any soundboard transducer, it is probably
>less immune to feedback than an undersaddle, though so far I have
>not had any problems with it. Going this route (or with some other
>similar pickup like the McIntyre Feather or the PUTW) will save
>you from having to mess with the saddle.
>
Which I like the thought of... My Thompson is almost perfectly
set up right now and I really don't want to muck with that... Getting
a new saddle cut, etc. isn't something I really want at this point...
Thanks for the insights.
Steven Dillon
>Steve,
>
>I have to-date installed at least 6 maybe 7 B-Band UST's
>from 2nd and 3rd generations and they been absolute no brainers.
>Very easy to install and I have yet to have any balance problems
>with the exception of one element that I finally damaged beyond
>serviceability after yanking it in and our of 3 different guitars.
>(Some experimentation I was doing).
>
Did you use B-Band in any of your recordings for the RMMGA
CDs? I really like your tone... If not, do you have something else
recorded using B-Band that I can listen to??
Thanks for the info.
T-bone
>
> Michael A. Wong wrote in message ...
> >Steve,
> >
> >I have to-date installed at least 6 maybe 7 B-Band UST's
> >from 2nd and 3rd generations and they been absolute no brainers.
> >Very easy to install and I have yet to have any balance problems
> >with the exception of one element that I finally damaged beyond
> >serviceability after yanking it in and our of 3 different guitars.
> >(Some experimentation I was doing).
> >
> Hello Michael,
> Did you use B-Band in any of your recordings for the RMMGA
> CDs? I really like your tone... If not, do you have something else
> recorded using B-Band that I can listen to??
If you wait until EC5 there will be several guitars there with B-bands
installed. I'll be bringing one with a dual source and one with just
UST. And, I'm sure there will be others.
It should give you a good idea of what they sound like.
Bob Dorgan
Michael A. Wong
No, the CD II tracks were recorded with dynamic microphones.
I've never tried recording with the B-Band.....I don't the like
the sound THAT much:)
To that point, ANY pickup system will be a compromise
to a nice condenser mic.
MW-
"Steven Dillon" <la...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:mB0b8.10572$St3.3...@news2.east.cox.net...
Tom Loredo
Hi folks-
Gordon wrote:
>
> Pekka Rintala, the prez of B-band told me this at the NAMM show.
Yikes! Somebody had better let Heikki know that Pekka's now the
prez! (Just teasing, folks; Heikki's the head of B-Band, but
Pekka is the CFO for the USA division.)
Regarding the issue of break-angle, I've heard luthiers encounter
balance problems that are symmetric across the saddle even in
guitars with straight endpin holes; they blame them on the
curvature in the saddle. Personally, I think there are too
many variables to be able to make blanket statements.
MKarlo wrote:
>
> Still liking the B-Band AST, eh Tom. So is that the only pickup source in your
> Olson?
No; I use the AST and an internal mic. At the moment, at least! 8-)
> I'd like to go to a single source inside the guitar that would render
> the true tone of my instrument, and get the battery out and the strip out from
> under my saddle. Does your AST cover all those bases?
No. I know of no single pickup that can render the true tone of any
instrument. Actually, I have yet to hear any pickup *system* that can
do this. Sorry, it's just not there yet---if it ever will be.
As for the other "bases," the AST will let you remove any undersaddle
pickup if you wish, and it is possible to run it without batteries
inside the guitar using the B-Band Entity Front End preamp and
something that will externally power it (like the Entity preamp, or
I think the Baggs Mixpro works as well). In fact that's how I
use mine---AST+mic with an Entity. I don't think this is a
"recommended" setup, though, since the Entity was designed for the
UST. But everything is compatible.
> What's the optimum
> input impedance for it?
You have to use B-Band preamps. B-Band pickups are not made with piezo
materials like most other pickups. They are closer in their properties
to the capsules used in electret condenser mics. The typical impedance
of a preamp for a condenser capsule is a *billion* ohms, and that's
the ballpark you need for a B-Band (actually, I think 100 megohms or
a couple hundred is sufficient). This is in contrast to the ~10 megohm
number that is good for piezos. So a piezo preamp won't work well
with a bare B-Band pickup; but a B-Band preamp could work well with
a piezo pickup (depending on its output level, etc.).
Steven Dillon wrote:
>
> I'm not going to completely give up on the Highlander just
> yet. I've still got EQ to play with and mixed with my Sunrise,
> I still may be able to correct the balance issues. If I can't
> get the balance right, then I'm just going to have to either 1)
> sell the Webber or 2) figure out a different way of amplifying
> it...
When it's installed right, at least in some guitars the Highlander
can sound very good; I'm not sure a B-Band UST will be any superior
to a well-installed Highlander. That said, a poorly installed
Highlander will sound pretty cruddy. One of my bandmates has a
nice Alvarez that he had a Highlander put in at a local shop. It
sounded pretty cruddy! Then he had someone with a lot of Highlander
experience tweak the install. It sounded incredibly better, almost
like a whole different pickup. The fact that you are having
balance problems suggests to me your install was not done correctly.
If you have someone in your area who is good with Highlander
installs, your easiest solution may be to pay someone to finally
do it right. It's not trivial. I would never do it myself.
> What do you think about running both of them together (the UST
> and the AST that is)?
I find that I like the undersaddle tone (from any pickup) less and
less with time. I also think there are solid physics reasons why
it's a *bad* place to put a pickup (from the perspective of
getting good tone). So it's not something I have any interest in
trying myself. That said, it's a configuration B-Band is both
supporting and recommending, and I think several current AST users
use it with a UST. One of the new B-Band endpin jack preamps
specifically supports this.
> I know this is blasphemous, but I'm not completely an
> a acoustic purist.... The natural sound is good, but I love to be
> plugged in...
Don't worry, the AST won't give you a truly natural sound! 8-)
Nothing will. Anyone who offers you something simple they say does
is just not giving you the straight scoop. As for not being a
"purist," there's no need to apologize. Everything is a compromise.
Sure, a plain old acoustic guitar in a nice room sounds just
wonderful. You give up some of that simple loveliness when
you plug in. But you also get a lot of capability in return.
You can play loud enough to be heard over the drums now. You
can use signal processors to make it sound like your playing
in an intimate room for one song and in an arena for the next.
You can use delays and loopers to "compose" layered parts
on-the-fly. It's just a tradeoff.
Peace,
Tom Loredo
Steven Dillon
<snip>
>If you wait until EC5 there will be several guitars there with B-bands
>installed. I'll be bringing one with a dual source and one with just
>UST. And, I'm sure there will be others.
>It should give you a good idea of what they sound like.
>
That's a great idea! Problem is I don't know if I can wait
that long.... I'm absolutely dying to hear my Thompson with
some electricity running through it...
See you at EC-5!
Steven Dillon
Michael A. Wong wrote in message ...
>Steve,
>
>No, the CD II tracks were recorded with dynamic microphones.
>I've never tried recording with the B-Band.....I don't the like
>the sound THAT much:)
>
>To that point, ANY pickup system will be a compromise
>to a nice condenser mic.
>
>MW-
>
Hello again Michael,
You mean you don't mix the two together? I'm sure
I'm not the only one of us recording with mics and an
amp mixed at the board... Or am I..... :-)
Michael A. Wong
just that but not I:)
Not that there's anything wrong with it but I tend to want
to try to capture the acoustic nuances of the particular
guitar I'm recording. More of an academic pursuit than
capturing a performance per-se.
Of course, if I could play like Al DiMeola I'd probably record
by plugging my Ovation right into the mixer........:)
MW-
"Steven Dillon" <la...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Q0gb8.13794$St3.4...@news2.east.cox.net...