Soundhole diameter
Kevin Hall
insight here; it just lets me get my whole scrawny arm inside up past the
elbow if I ever have to fix the thing. I could make up some astonishing
pile of bovine by-products about the effect of large soundholes on the yin
and yang of the universal economy, but the mundane truth is a lot easier.
KH
Hojo2x <hoj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000926204451...@ng-bg1.aol.com...
> Rick wrote:
>
> >Which other luthiers use>4-1/4" as their standard soundhole size, and
what is
> the thinking behind the>larger soundhole?
>
>
> I can't answer either question, to be truthful, but the general thinking
among
> guitar builders and repairmen that I know is that a larger soundhole
increases
> some of the treble response.
>
> I don't know if that's true or not, just what I've heard.
>
>
> Wade Hampton Miller
McCollum
course I still end up with marks on the side of my arms trying to get to the
back of a jumbo. That's why I have kids now. But seriously, on certain
guitars and for certain situations I use a smaller sound hole, especially on
a parlor guitar, which is 3 1/2 to 3 3/4. The bigger the soundhole, the
more airy it gets, but if it gets too big for the size of the box, it can
get wolf-y. This all comes from experience. Hope that confuses you even
more :)
Lance McCollum
McCollum Guitars
http://www.mccollumguitars.com
"Kevin Hall" <timbe...@webhart.net> wrote in message
news:xobA5.31711$Kp6.1...@cac1.rdr.news.psi.ca...
RPM
Martin's...the Lowden is 4-1/4" and the Martin 4". Which other luthiers use
4-1/4" as their standard soundhole size, and what is the thinking behind the
--
Rick M.
You can hear some of my songs at www.mp3.com/RPM33
Hojo2x
>Which other luthiers use>4-1/4" as their standard soundhole size, and what is
the thinking behind the>larger soundhole?
juvenal
"Hojo2x" wrote...
> the general thinking among
> guitar builders and repairmen that I know is that a larger soundhole
increases
> some of the treble response.
My current favorite axe is a 14-fret nylon-strung Kay with a 15 1/2" lower
bout and a 3 1/2" soundhole. It definitely has much beefier bass response
than either my Ibanez classical or Yairi dreadnaught. I don't know if it
has anything to do with the wee soundhole or not.
Timothy Juvenal
Greg Thomas
Kevin Hall wrote in message
> I use a 4 1/8" hole on my dreadnoughts. There's no great technical flash
of
> insight here; it just lets me get my whole scrawny arm inside up past the
> elbow if I ever have to fix the thing. I could make up some astonishing
> pile of bovine by-products about the effect of large soundholes on the yin
> and yang of the universal economy, but the mundane truth is a lot easier.
>
> KH
What part of the country er ywe from, anyways, boy? That ther be 'bovine
fecal matter.' Ya be wantin' them folks over in RMMG to think we ain't
nothin' but a bunch o' hicks er sumpin?
Greg (I love Deliverance) Thomas
Kevin Hall
soundholes on big steel strings. He had a very coherent explanation of the
whys and wherefores, involving the refractive properties of moonbeams
acting on the back strip etc. According to Jean the small hole 'focussed
the bass'.
My theory was that he used classical style rosettes in those days, and that
was the largest size they were available in from Franz Dotzauer in Germany.
Jean denied it vigorously, and since I have the greatest respect for the
most energetic luthier I ever met, I agreed that maybe he was right.
Once he was producing enough gtrs. to justify booking a custom order,
however, I noticed he jumped up to a 4" hole like the rest of the free
world at the time.
Jean is a good sport, and a great guitar builder. He also doesn't suffer
from a ' luthier-than-thou' attitude that his success may justify.
KH
Timberline Gtrs.
juvenal <juv...@juvenal.com> wrote in message
news:lVcA5.930$VY2....@nnrp1.ptd.net...
Lenny Collins
because of the larger hole, the Adirondack top, or both. The story I got
from Martin is the large hole provides a "perceived immediacy" to the sound.
I'm not sure why they added the perceived. Either the sound is immediate or
not. Any perceived clarification would be appreciated.
Lenny Collins
"RPM" <rpm...@home.com> wrote in message
news:i0bA5.4497$P82.5...@news1.rdc1.ct.home.com...
cdw...@my-deja.com
"Yup, that's it. Big arm, big hole. Scientific as all get out, yup.
the box, it can get wolf-y."
Lance
Huh? Wolf-y? Mind sharing the daffy-nition for that one?
David
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
juvenal
"Lenny Collins" wrote...
> The story I got
> from Martin is the large hole provides a "perceived immediacy" to the
sound.
Ahh, this is similar to the story Kay gives that the tiny soundhole provides
a "perceptual quasitude" to the sound. Well, I guess that clears everything
up.
Timothy Juvenal
Kevin Hall
KHnews:nenA5.1266$VY2....@nnrp1.ptd.net...
Coop
that's the perfect size for sound hole drink coasters. Coop
Kevin Hall <timbe...@webhart.net> wrote in message
news:FQnA5.32690$Kp6.1...@cac1.rdr.news.psi.ca...
Lenny Collins
Lenny Collins
"Coop" wrote in
hank alrich
> Taking his arm out of the guitar body, Lance McCollum wrote:
> "Yup, that's it. Big arm, big hole. Scientific as all get out, yup.
> ... That's why I have kids now. ... if it gets too big for the size of
> the box, it can get wolf-y."
> Lance
> Huh? Wolf-y? Mind sharing the daffy-nition for that one?
As in "wolf notes", which exist in most bowed stringed instruments.
These are notes that fall upon some unfortunate resonance of the
string-instrument system and exhibit much greater volume and/or less
than desirable tone. One of the things that has attracted me to Lance's
instruments is a very even response, both tonally and volume-wise,
throughout the instrument's range.
I should have my new McCollum within about 27.637 days, but hey, who's
counting...
--
hank alrich * secret__mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"
LeachGuitars
>I should have my new McCollum within about 27.637 days, but hey, who's
>counting...>>
That's six months, luthiers time.....no wait....27.637 days is 5 months, 23
days 16 hrs and 13 min.
My sound holes are about 4 1/8" because thats where the hole in the jig I
use puts them. But I still can't get my arm in there...
Harv
--
Visit Leach Guitars http://www.leachguitars.com
dunwell...@dorje.com
<lea...@netshel.net> writes:
My soundhole is only about 3 1/2" but when it isn't making sounds it works just
fine for input of pie, icecream, Ethiopian Mocha Harrar, ... oh you mean
_guitar_ soundhole.....
Alan D.
Steve Hawkins
>hank alrich wrote in message <1ehm5o0.1fhyd5xwkdu80N@209-162-27-
>>I should have my new McCollum within about 27.637 days, but hey, who's
>>counting...>>
>
>That's six months, luthiers time.....no wait....27.637 days is 5 months, 23
>days 16 hrs and 13 min.
>My sound holes are about 4 1/8" because thats where the hole in the jig I
>use puts them. But I still can't get my arm in there...
>Harv
>
Hey Harv! I'm fixin to install a K&K SBT in your guitar so I'll let you know
if the soundhole is big enough. BTW what size nails do you think I should
use? :-)
Steve Hawkins
juvenal
> My soundhole is only about 3 1/2" but when it isn't making sounds it works
just
> fine for input of pie, icecream, Ethiopian Mocha Harrar
Alan, what you are referring to is the _woman's_ primary soundhole. The
man's primary soundhole is further down and considerably smaller.
Timothy Juvenal
LeachGuitars
If it doesn't fit maybe I can sell you a new guitar? ;^)
Harv
--
Visit Leach Guitars http://www.leachguitars.com
Steve Hawkins wrote in message ...
Marc Durso
Don't tell that to Michael Wong!!!
Marc Durso
In article <8qt7hk$6b0$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>,
"Coop" <co...@dnai.com> wrote:
> I don't know why the rest of them do it by my soundholes are 3.88"
because
> that's the perfect size for sound hole drink coasters. Coop
>
> Kevin Hall <timbe...@webhart.net> wrote in message
> news:FQnA5.32690$Kp6.1...@cac1.rdr.news.psi.ca...
> > See what I mean about 'bovine by-products'?
> > KH
> > juvenal <juv...@juvenal.com> wrote in message
> > news:nenA5.1266$VY2....@nnrp1.ptd.net...
> > >
> > > "Lenny Collins" wrote...
> > > > The story I got
> > > > from Martin is the large hole provides a "perceived immediacy"
to the
> > > sound.
> > >
> > > Ahh, this is similar to the story Kay gives that the tiny
soundhole
> > provides
> > > a "perceptual quasitude" to the sound. Well, I guess that clears
> > everything
> > > up.
> > >
> > > Timothy Juvenal
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--
Goodall / Thompson
http://communities.msn.com/Handmadeguitars for pics of my guitars
Steve Hawkins
>6p galvanized are good (they don't rust)
>If it doesn't fit maybe I can sell you a new guitar? ;^)
>Harv
>
Galvanized? Too ugly! Mabye I'll try some of those black drywall screws.
Still have to pay for the other two guitars on the way. :-)
Steve Hawkins
Al Carruth
The size and placement of the sound hole determine the frequency of the
so-called Helmholtz air resonance, or A-0 mode. This usually falls anywhere
from F# to A on the low E string. If it's too low the tone can get 'tubby'
because there's no other resonance nearby to reinforce the notes on the low E
and A strings. If it's too high the lower notes get 'nasal' and 'thin' becuse
they aren't putting out any of their fundamental tone and you are only hearing
harmonics.
Making the soundhole larger makes the A-0 frequency go up, making the tone of
the guitar 'thinner'. At the same time it allows more energy to be radiated
from the soundhole, so the guitar becomes louder and loses a bit of sustain.
There are a lot of higher order air resonances in the guitar. and some of them
are influenced by the size and position of the hole, too. There hasn't been
alot of work done on them yet. On top of that, the air resonances aren't
_really_ independant: they can 'couple' with wood resonances. For example, the
A-0 mode couples with the main top resonance, and making the hole bigger to
raise the A-0 frequency will also lower the main top resonance, which has other
effects.
To sum it all up; the subject is complex enough to allow ample room for the
spreading of manure. And that's _without_ getting into side holes, Thurman
ports, Kasha/Schnieder offsets and all the other hoo-haw that's out there.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
http://www.alcarruthluthier.com
Kevin Hall
Sticking the sound-hoop in the back would work just fine if you have an
uncontrollable desire to entertain your navel.
KH
JimLowther <jimlo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000928203049...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
hole is
> there to let the sound out." However, I still have one question: If the
> purpose of the sound hole is to tune the Helmholtz air resonance, why is
the
> hole in the soundboard ont eh front of the guitar? Would it work just as
well
> on the back or side?
>
> Just wondering!
>
> Jim Lowther
Popgun
bass reflex speaker cabinets, so some of the info. transfers. Basically
the hole could be anywhere except for too issues:
1. Any sound waves other than very low frequencies are directional
(actually the amount of apread is based on a ratio of the port diameter
to the wavelength).
2. Any obstruction (such as your body) not only absorbs and muffles the
sound, it acts a dampening and changes the value of the port.
That's basically why it's on the face of the guitar; to direct the sound
forward and minimize any dampening of the port (soundhole) that would
change it's response
hank alrich
> Don't the strings get in the way?
> Lenny Collins
You can use 'em for a pocket flask stabilzer.
> "Coop" wrote in
> > I don't know why the rest of them do it by my soundholes are 3.88" because
> > that's the perfect size for sound hole drink coasters. Coop
--
JimLowther
Rogluthier
>Date: 9/28/00 9:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time
What do you think of these?
http://members.aol.com/rogluthier/index2.html
Roger Thurman
Thurman Guitar & Violin Repair, Inc.
900 Franklin Ave.
Kent, OH 44240
330-673-4054
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/Rogluthier/
25 years in repair, making and sales.
Martin - Fender Warranty Repair
Visa/MC Shipment on approval
juvenal
"Rogluthier" wrote...
Makes me wanna drill holes in all my guitars.
"Hold still, Special Kay, this is going to hurt me more than it'll hurt
you."
Hmm - I've got an Epi that used to have electronics. Now I don't have to
worry about filling those big holes in the side!
Timothy Juvenal
JimLowther
>Sticking the sound-hoop in the back would work just fine if you have an
>uncontrollable desire to entertain your navel.
Cute.
Nonetheless, your somewhat less than inspiring response does illustrate the
point I was trying to make.
I once had a conversation with a luthier who took exception to the idea that
the sound hole was there "to let the sound out," giving an explanation for the
sound hole as an expediaent to tune the Helmholtz air resonance frequency
(similar to the one Al Carruth gave) as the sole reason for a sound hole. I do
not believe that this was not the point that Al wished to make. But if the
only purpose of the hole was to tune the A-0 mode resonance, it seems to me
that it matters not where the hole or holes are placed, only total area. As
your response suggests, this would seem intuitively not to be the case.
Best wishes,
Jim Lowther
Kevin Hall
Actually it is just my knee-jerk response to an overdose of 'sliderule'.
I'm an old fashioned kind of guy. As far as I know Helmholtz is the guy
in charge of the steering dingus at the back of a sailboat.
My skin breaks out at the mere mention of the name Kasha, and I start to do
irrational things like stick burrs up the nose of lofty professor types.
I suspect Brother Carruth himself looks a bit sideways at some of the
extemes the true afficionados of the Mystic Molecule go to. By all accounts
he's a damned good builder, so he's doing something right for him.
My limited abilities have led me to believe I am basically building a pretty
crude air pump which creates and amplifies sound by
a; causing the air inside the box to vibrate, and then shoving it out the
soundhole, and
b; causing the air on the outside of the box to vibrate through immediate
contact with the top.
Through many years of observation of many guitars which worked and many more
which didn't, I've come up with some basic skills and techniques which seem
to produce pleasant enough instruments that they are always in a greater
demand than I can supply. I know that I need to treat certain materials in
a certain manner in order to get the result I desire. Helmholtz need not
apply; I don't want another apprentice. If I started messing about with
that stuff now, I'd probably bore myself to death and almost certainly
bugger up my guitars for at least the next 10 years.
I'm a luddite. I confess it. A client of mine had to hold me at gunpoint
to use this damned confuser.
I'm quite sure Al is right about all the info contained in his " Science
Alert", and am equally sure he finds it useful. I'm also pretty sure that
if you put the soundhoop on the back, you'd be entertaining your navel more
than your ears.
If you are really interested in this stuff, have a bash at building a few.
It really is great fun, and it's also the only way to answer questions like
yours to your complete satisfaction.
All the best;
KH
JimLowther <jimlo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000929154258...@ng-fn1.aol.com...
Al Carruth
output of the Helmholtz resonance, since it tends to radiate in all directions.
Moving the hole from the 'normal' position to the upper corner, a la Kasha,
will, however, lower the frequency of that resonance by about 30%.
There are a lot of other resonances in the body, though, and some of them
radiate through the soundhole while others don't. Moving the hole can change
the frequencies of those, too, and also the way they work with the rest of the
design. The end result would be to change the sound of the guitar. Maybe that's
good, maybe not.
I can understand the Luddite position on all of this, particularly in the face
of what is often touted as 'scientific lutherie'. The fact is that the guitar
as we know it has been developed over a very long time to fill a particular
need. The need changes all the time, of course, and luthiers are always trying
new stuff. But on the whole the design is really pretty good, and a builder
with a good feel for it can usually make a superior instrument. Why bother?
If you look back over the history of the thing, there really isn't a lot that
hasn't already been tried at one time or another. Maybe those old guys were too
far ahead of their time, and maybe they were just bad ideas. The application of
a little modern technology, and some understanding of theory, can help you sort
out which was which. It's another, directed, way of trying for consistancy, and
looking for improvements. That's really all I'm trying to do.
McCollum
Lance
"Al Carruth" <alca...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000929193626...@ng-me1.aol.com...
LeachGuitars
stay on TOPIC!!!!
>"Al Carruth" <alca...@aol.com> wrote in message
Tom from Texas
Tom (the practical) from Texas
Dan'l Nestlerode
Though I'm not a luthier I can guess that the size of the sound hole
really doesn't matter as long as the hole is bigger than the pick. The
reason picks are hard to extract when the guitar is turned upside down is
the bracing. So let us not ask how big the sound hole has to be. Rather
we sould ask how thick the top must be to avoid the necessity of braces and
therefore make pick removal quick and easy.
:-D
Daniel
In article <20000930143047...@ng-cl1.aol.com>,
tris...@aol.com (Tom from Texas) wrote:
> What is the optimal size of a soundhole for getting lost picks out?
>
> Tom (the practical) from Texas
--
Daniel Nestlerode
dnestler "at" mac "dot" com
Home Page:
http://home.mindspring.com/~dnestler
Links to Luthiers, Acoustic Guitar and Mandolin Sites:
http://home.mindspring.com/~dnestler/links.htm
Al Carruth
<< Thereason picks are hard to extract when the guitar is turned upside down is
the bracing. >>
One advantage of archtops....
Michael A. Wong
"Al Carruth" <alca...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000930182916...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
JimLowther
>"Less than inspiring"! I'm smitten to the quick.
Well, now you've done it! Now I'm going to be up all night, worrying about
your smitten quick and all! ;-)
Best wishes,
Jim Lowther
David Hajicek
Good information. Thanks.
You have to admit that Kevin's explanation is more colorful, however.
But Kevin. I have a problem - I have forearms like Popeye - does that
mean I should go for about a 5" hole? But then to get the proper
Helmholtz frequency (at 300m altitude) I have to increase the body
thickness by nearly an inch? This gets pretty complicated.
Dave Hajicek
Al Carruth wrote:
>
> SCIENCE ALERT!
> The size and placement of the sound hole determine the frequency of the
> so-called Helmholtz air resonance, or A-0 mode. This usually falls anywhere
> from F# to A on the low E string. If it's too low the tone can get 'tubby'
> because there's no other resonance nearby to reinforce the notes on the low E
> and A strings. If it's too high the lower notes get 'nasal' and 'thin' becuse
> they aren't putting out any of their fundamental tone and you are only hearing
> harmonics.
>
> Making the soundhole larger makes the A-0 frequency go up, making the tone of
> the guitar 'thinner'. At the same time it allows more energy to be radiated
> from the soundhole, so the guitar becomes louder and loses a bit of sustain.
>
> There are a lot of higher order air resonances in the guitar. and some of them
> are influenced by the size and position of the hole, too. There hasn't been
> alot of work done on them yet. On top of that, the air resonances aren't
> _really_ independant: they can 'couple' with wood resonances. For example, the
> A-0 mode couples with the main top resonance, and making the hole bigger to
> raise the A-0 frequency will also lower the main top resonance, which has other
> effects.
>
> To sum it all up; the subject is complex enough to allow ample room for the
> spreading of manure. And that's _without_ getting into side holes, Thurman
> ports, Kasha/Schnieder offsets and all the other hoo-haw that's out there.
>
David Hajicek
If you find my previous post on this subject, all will become clear.
Dave Hajicek
LeachGuitars wrote:
>
> What the heck does Helmholtz have to do with how big your arm is, geez Al
> stay on TOPIC!!!!
> Harv
> --
> Visit Leach Guitars http://www.leachguitars.com
>
> >"Al Carruth" <alca...@aol.com> wrote in message
David Hajicek
Thanks. I was joking about the 5" hole (not my forearms). But then I
ended up learning something new. I have seen guitars (GAL) with access
doors in them. I don't particularly like that idea.
I hereby place an order for a dozen of those A.C.M.E. Peal and stick 5"
holes. Are they reusable? I'll be careful not to put them in my
pocket. I will have a lot of use for them.
My surgeon (right shoulder, last week) could have used one. It's taking
a while for the 4" slit he made to heal. My shoulder is starting to
look like a patchwork quilt. Interesting in a Frankenstein kind of way.
Dave Hajicek
Al Carruth wrote:
>
> Sadly, making the body deeper doesn't always (or even usually) lower the
> frequency of the Helmholtz resonance. That's because it's really part of a
> 'bass reflex' couple with the main top resonance. Making the body deeper
> weakens the coupling, and that tends to raise the A-0 frequency, even as the
> added air mass lowers it. Result: almost no change. Fred Dickens did the
> experiment years ago.
>
> If you really want a 5" soundhole to accommodate your Popeye-like forearms,
> then try making the body longer and moving the hole up toward the neck a
> little.
>
> Or you could try an A.C.M.E. "Peel-n-stick Repairman's Removable Hole" in the
> 5" size. Just remember to dispose of it carefully when you're done with it.
Al Carruth
SuperSoup
on Eric Clapton. I clearly remembered this picture of him playing an
acoustic in the seventies with a heart shaped soundhole! If my memory
serves me, it was a Martin too. Anybody see that one?
Psychedelic!
Wonder how it would have sounded (I'm assuming it'll have fallen apart by
now)
David Hajicek <haj...@skypoint.com> wrote in message
news:39DD3CF4...@skypoint.com...
> Al:
>
> Thanks. I was joking about the 5" hole (not my forearms). But then I
> ended up learning something new. I have seen guitars (GAL) with access
> doors in them. I don't particularly like that idea.
>
> I hereby place an order for a dozen of those A.C.M.E. Peal and stick 5"
> holes. Are they reusable? I'll be careful not to put them in my
> pocket. I will have a lot of use for them.
>
> My surgeon (right shoulder, last week) could have used one. It's taking
> a while for the 4" slit he made to heal. My shoulder is starting to
> look like a patchwork quilt. Interesting in a Frankenstein kind of way.
>
> Dave Hajicek
>
> Al Carruth wrote:
> >
JimLowther
>Or you could try an A.C.M.E. "Peel-n-stick Repairman's Removable Hole" in the
>5" size. Just remember to dispose of it carefully when you're done with it.
Beep! Beep!