That Gibson/Wood Thing

[Larry Brown]

For those of you interested in the subject, this is a pretty
interesting read after you get past the "Gibson is the Cadillac of
guitars" line. That one gave me a chuckle.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/11/15/130379/green-probe-has-guitar-maker-playing.html

[MKR]

On Nov 16, 8:51 am, Larry Brown <larrybro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> For those of you interested in the subject, this is a pretty
> interesting read after you get past the "Gibson is the Cadillac of

> guitars" line. That one gave me a chuckle.http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/11/15/130379/green-probe-has-guitar-m...

I don't know why you would object to Gibsone being called the
"Cadillac" of guitars. Cadillacs suck, too.

[JSorell]

MKR <mkro...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:f4383d59-b196-44ee...@k26g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:

Maybe it's a Texas thing. Do you need big hair to play Gibsons?

John

[Steve Hawkins]

JSorell <johnADDA...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns9F9F52D0BC1E2j...@130.133.4.10:

Nah, Billy Gibbons wears a pot scrubber and plays Gibsons.

Steve Hawkins

[JSorell]

Steve Hawkins <stephen....@frontier.comREMOVETHIS> wrote in
news:Xns9F9F5456E451Ast...@74.209.131.10:

> JSorell <johnADDA...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:Xns9F9F52D0BC1E2j...@130.133.4.10:
>
>> MKR <mkro...@gmail.com> wrote in

>> news:f4383d59-b196-44ee-a049-
027217...@k26g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:

>>
>>> On Nov 16, 8:51 am, Larry Brown <larrybro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> For those of you interested in the subject, this is a pretty
>>>> interesting read after you get past the "Gibson is the Cadillac of
>>>> guitars" line. That one gave me a
>>>> chuckle.http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011
>>> /11/15/130379/green-probe-has-guitar-m...
>>>
>>> I don't know why you would object to Gibsone being called the
>>> "Cadillac" of guitars. Cadillacs suck, too.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Maybe it's a Texas thing. Do you need big hair to play Gibsons?
>>
>> John
>>
>
> Nah, Billy Gibbons wears a pot scrubber and plays Gibsons.
>
> Steve Hawkins
>

I thought he drove a Peugeot?

John

[Steve Hawkins]

Larry Brown <larry...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:990e3e3c-22c4-446c...@g27g2000pre.googlegroups.com:

LOL! I think the Pope should just declare Bob Taylor a Saint.

Steve Hawkins

[Steve Hawkins]

JSorell <johnADDA...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns9F9F550A0AD77j...@130.133.4.10:

You can drive a pigeon?

Steve Hawkins

[JD]

Not without duct tape.

[hank alrich]

Yes, but not to drink.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Les Cargill]

He mainly plays Gretsches now.

--
Les Cargill

[Larry Brown]

I didn't object. Part of what I was chuckling at was "I guess he
thinks that's a complement."

[Larry Brown]

On Nov 16, 10:28 am, Steve Hawkins
<stephen.hawki...@frontier.comREMOVETHIS> wrote:

And Henry Juszkiewicz a martyr?

[Steve Hawkins]

Larry Brown <larry...@hotmail.com> wrote in

news:579157a6-eaef-47a0...@s35g2000pra.googlegroups.com:

> On Nov 16, 10:28 am, Steve Hawkins
> <stephen.hawki...@frontier.comREMOVETHIS> wrote:
>> Larry Brown <larrybro...@hotmail.com> wrote

>> innews:990e3e3c-22c4-446c-aa9
> f-3b25a...@g27g2000pre.googlegroups.com:

>>
>> > For those of you interested in the subject, this is a pretty
>> > interesting read after you get past the "Gibson is the Cadillac of
>> > guitars" line. That one gave me a chuckle.
>> >http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/11/15/130379/green-probe-has-guitar-m
>> >ak
>> > er-playing.html
>>
>> LOL!  I think the Pope should just declare Bob Taylor a Saint.
>>
>> Steve Hawkins
>
> And Henry Juszkiewicz a martyr?

Henry is indeed taking one for the team.

Steve Hawkins

[Steve Hawkins]

Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote in news:ja0urm$djv$1@dont-
email.me:

> Steve Hawkins wrote:
>> JSorell<johnADDA...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:Xns9F9F52D0BC1E2j...@130.133.4.10:
>>
>>> MKR<mkro...@gmail.com> wrote in

>>> news:f4383d59-b196-44ee-a049-
027217...@k26g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:

>>>
>>>> On Nov 16, 8:51 am, Larry Brown<larrybro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> For those of you interested in the subject, this is a pretty
>>>>> interesting read after you get past the "Gibson is the Cadillac of
>>>>> guitars" line. That one gave me a
>>>>> chuckle.http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011
>>>> /11/15/130379/green-probe-has-guitar-m...
>>>>
>>>> I don't know why you would object to Gibsone being called the
>>>> "Cadillac" of guitars. Cadillacs suck, too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe it's a Texas thing. Do you need big hair to play Gibsons?
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>
>> Nah, Billy Gibbons wears a pot scrubber and plays Gibsons.
>>
>> Steve Hawkins
>
> He mainly plays Gretsches now.
>
> --
> Les Cargill
>

WHAT???? hmmmmm.....I wonder if he'd take a couple of hundred for
Pearly?

Steve Hawkins

[MKR]

On Nov 16, 12:21 pm, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.com> wrote:
> Steve Hawkins wrote:
> > JSorell<johnADDADOTsor...@gmail.com>  wrote in
> >news:Xns9F9F52D0BC1E2j...@130.133.4.10:
>
> >> MKR<mkross...@gmail.com>  wrote in

> >>news:f4383d59-b196-44ee...@k26g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>> On Nov 16, 8:51 am, Larry Brown<larrybro...@hotmail.com>  wrote:
> >>>> For those of you interested in the subject, this is a pretty
> >>>> interesting read after you get past the "Gibson is the Cadillac of
> >>>> guitars" line. That one gave me a
> >>>> chuckle.http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011
> >>> /11/15/130379/green-probe-has-guitar-m...
>
> >>> I don't know why you would object to Gibsone being called the
> >>> "Cadillac" of guitars.  Cadillacs suck, too.
>
> >> Maybe it's a Texas thing. Do you need big hair to play Gibsons?
>
> >> John
>
> > Nah, Billy Gibbons wears a pot scrubber and plays Gibsons.
>
> > Steve Hawkins
>
> He mainly plays Gretsches now.
>
> --
> Les Cargill

Yeah - the Billy Bo - sort of a cross between a Gretsch Billy Gibbons
special and a Bo Diddley thing:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/gretsch-guitars-g6199-billy-bo-jupiter-thunderbird-electric-guitar

[Larry Brown]

On Nov 16, 2:17 pm, Steve Hawkins
<stephen.hawki...@frontier.comREMOVETHIS> wrote:

> Larry Brown <larrybro...@hotmail.com> wrote innews:579157a6-eaef-47a0...@s35g2000pra.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 16, 10:28 am, Steve Hawkins
> > <stephen.hawki...@frontier.comREMOVETHIS> wrote:
> >> Larry Brown <larrybro...@hotmail.com> wrote
> >> innews:990e3e3c-22c4-446c-aa9

> > f-3b25a75a8...@g27g2000pre.googlegroups.com:

>
> >> > For those of you interested in the subject, this is a pretty
> >> > interesting read after you get past the "Gibson is the Cadillac of
> >> > guitars" line. That one gave me a chuckle.
> >> >http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/11/15/130379/green-probe-has-guitar-m
> >> >ak
> >> > er-playing.html
>
> >> LOL!  I think the Pope should just declare Bob Taylor a Saint.
>
> >> Steve Hawkins
>
> > And Henry Juszkiewicz a martyr?
>
> Henry is indeed taking one for the team.
>
> Steve Hawkins

"LOL!" indeed.

[David Hajicek]

"Larry Brown" <larry...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:990e3e3c-22c4-446c...@g27g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

This law was amended and passed before Obama took office. Why are they
implying it is his law?

And yes, the Lacey Act sucks big time. Nothing like making some third party
legally responsible for when the Customs people fail to do their job.

Dave H

[David Hajicek]

"MKR" <mkro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d2193384-bed7-4501...@o9g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...

+++++++++++

My. That is truly ugly.

Dave H

[hank alrich]

The coolest thing is that it's only $2674.99 now, down from $3825!

[Dan Kozar]

In article <1katie2.an956b1gb6gofN%walk...@nv.net>,

Unless you put a bar in the back of the car

[dsi1]

When you think about it, it's not so far off. Both companies have models
that are coveted by collectors and have also made a whole bunch of junk.
Cadillac's heyday was the pre-war era. Heck, they produced a V-16 model!

[Larry Brown]

On Nov 16, 4:03 pm, "David Hajicek" <haji...@skypoint.com> wrote:
> "Larry Brown" <larrybro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

>
> news:990e3e3c-22c4-446c...@g27g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>
> > For those of you interested in the subject, this is a pretty
> > interesting read after you get past the "Gibson is the Cadillac of
> > guitars" line. That one gave me a chuckle.

> >http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/11/15/130379/green-probe-has-guitar-m...

>
> This law was amended and passed before Obama took office.  Why are they
> implying it is his law?
>
> And yes, the Lacey Act sucks big time.  Nothing like making some third party
> legally responsible for when the Customs people fail to do their job.
>
> Dave H

I certainly don't know all the ins and outs of this, but I'm not
seeing how it is so unreasonable to require the buyers of the wood to
know where the wood they are purchasing came from, whether it was a
legal source or not. We have laws against buying stolen property, we
don't just let someone say "I'm not responsible for where it came
from, the cops should have done their job and made sure the stuff
wasn't stolen in the first place." We have regulations against 'blood
diamonds', ivory, or cheetah skins don't we? "All's fair that gets by
Customs" might make those who stand to profit happy, but I think it's
fortunate that the U.S. doesn't operate that way. I don't buy that a
billion-dollar corporation is being 'victimized by too much
regulation' if they are made to follow a law designed to encourage
conservation/long-term sustainability of raw materials.

[David Hajicek]

"Larry Brown" <larry...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:f39f2f0b-ad2e-4764...@o11g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

++++++++++

Read Lacey.

Have you ever bought a guitar or tonewoods?

Can you, personally, vouch for the woodsmen and everybody in-between that
handled the woods or instrument involved and are you willing to go to jail
if they violated any law (even in their own country) along the way? I
didn't think so. But that is the situation you are in because of Lacey.
We're not talking about killing elephants here or buying something obviously
illegal in a back alley. All we need is a form being incorrectly filled out
or our government choosing to interpret foreign laws differently than the
country involved, apparently.

When someone imports something, the importer is responsible for filling out
all the appropriate forms and meeting all the appropriate laws. It is
Customs' responsibility to review those forms and verify their accuracy and
to decide whether the item comes into the country or not (and extract any
fees). That is their charter, the very purpose of Customs. If there is a
problem with the item, it should not be let in. If a crime is involved, the
importer needs to be held responsible. Pretty straight forward that way.

If Customs doesn't have the means to do their job, how does it make sense to
make you responsible if the importer tries to get something into the country
under false pretenses or with incorrect documentation (and in the case of
Gibson, to knowingly allow materials to go through Customs with possible
violations)? That presumes that you conspired with the importer to break
the law. How do you even have a clue that something was violated? Do you
have the ability or means to understand all the laws involved? Probably
not - and you shouldn't have to - THAT is Customs' job. Customs failed to
do their job with respect to Gibson (hold the shipment until the paperwork
is correct). They wanted a political gotcha!

In your example, it would be like you buying something at a police auction
and later being charged with theft because the item had originally been
stolen so you must have conspired in the original theft. Or you buying
tennis shoes at Target and being charged with slavery because the shoemaker
employed underage children.

Dave H

[David Hajicek]

I would add that the wood involved is not in violation of CITES or Indian
law (according to India). The major problem was that the paperwork did not
match the shipment details.

Dave H

[don j]

On Nov 16, 9:51 am, Larry Brown <larrybro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> For those of you interested in the subject, this is a pretty
> interesting read after you get past the "Gibson is the Cadillac of

> guitars" line. That one gave me a chuckle.http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/11/15/130379/green-probe-has-guitar-m...

Yep. Too heavy and too expensive for what you really get.

[alcarruth]

Larry Brown wrote:
"I certainly don't know all the ins and outs of this, but I'm not
seeing how it is so unreasonable to require the buyers of the wood to
know where the wood they are purchasing came from, whether it was a
legal source or not. "

This is basically a good idea, but there are a few problems. I've been
trying to figure this out now for a couple of years, and am still
confused, so bear with me.

First, the 'due diligence' clause: I'm supposed to do 'due diligence'
to find out about the wood I buy. As the law stands, if I do, and it
turns out that the wood was illegal in some way, all they can do is
confiscate the material, just as they would if it was stolen property
that you had bought on good faith. If I don't do the due diligence,
I'm liable for fines (and not small ones, either!) and even prison
time. The problem is, what constitutes 'due diligence'? I'm an
indivuidual luthier, and don't have a legal staff to track stuff down.
About all I can do is ask. The last time I asked about some wood at a
yard (a big place, with warehoses full of tropical woods) they
couldn't figure out why I was interested. When I explained the Lacey
Act, all I got was a diatribe against politicians. They'd never heard
of it. If my suppliers don't know, how am I supposed to find out? If I
ask, and they don't know, did that constitute 'due diligence'? I did
_ask_, after all... Remember, this is a big 'brick and mortar' (mostly
metal warehoses, really, but..) business that's been in opperation for
years: it's not some guy in a parking lot asking if I'd like to buy
stereo equipment cheap.

Second, the lack of a 'grandfather' clause. Most luthiers tend to
stockpile wood, often for a long time. We're about the only wood
workers that do. It's not unusual to find wood in a luthier's stores
that was purchased twenty-five or more years ago. Sometimes it will
have been purchased from another luthier who had it around for longer
than that, or just from an individual. Note that, at the time of
purchase, the wood may not have been considered 'endangered', was
almost certainly under no particular restriction, and there was no
legal requirement for knowing the provenance of it. Now there is.
Could you name the store where you bought some particular kitchen
appliance twenty years or more ago? You could say that I'm running a
business, and need to keep better records than a household, but up
until now there has been no requirement to keep reciepts for more than
six years, if I understand it correctly. Even if I knew where I got
some of this stuff, would they have the records to track it back? What
if the person I bought it from is dead?

This opens up another can of worms. On the Lacey forms you're supposed
to list each species of wood used and where it came from. If you don't
know where it came from, you have to list all the _possible_ sources.
Suppose I use some 'Honduras mahogany', Swietana macrophyla. It turns
out that there is currently an export embargo in place on that species
in Brazil and Nicaragua: if the wood came from there after the embargo
was put in place (when was that? I'll have to ask my legal staff...),
it's effectively CITES class I: illegal to transport across national
boundaries. There's no way I can find out where the wood I have came
from. If I list Nicaragua and Brazil as possible sources, is that self
incrimination? If I don't is that perjury? There is, in fact, no way I
can fil out that form 'accurately to the best of my knowledge' without
running some risk of breaking a law. Remember, there is no provision
in the law for saying that the wood was sourced before 2008 when it
was passed. (There was a two-year 'phase in period' on enforcement,
which was probably long enough for funiture manufacturers and such to
clear inventories and get right on the paperwork. It would have taken
most luthiers a lot longer than that to have cleared their
inventories, even if they had known about this. Most of us don't have
copies of 'The Federal Register' on the night stand.)

There's a huge gray area in that _anything_ can be illegal.
Technically, if the guy driving the log truck carrying the wood didn't
have a licence, that shipment could be considered illegal and fall
under Lacey restrictions. And note that Lacey applies to _interstate_
commerce. At the moment they're supposedly concentrating on imports of
wood, particularly tropical, worth more than $2000, but that's just a
practical step to cut down on the amount of work they'll have to do.
If and when they get that under control things could move down a
couple of notches.

I'm all for what they're trying to do: I don't want to see the planet
trashed either, and I'd love it if Brazilian rosewood and all the
other good stuff I've had the privilege of working with could be
around for future generations to use. I have my doubts about how well
the CITES model will work to accomplish this, but I sure wish them
well. We luthiers have been so far under the radar for so long that
it's not at all surprising if our peculiarities were not taken into
account when the law was written. All I want is for things to be
cleared up so that I can be sure I'm legal. I expect it will take a
few years to get there, even if the mills of government grind along at
a much faster pace than usual.

[Larry Brown]

I appreciate your thoughtful analysis and perspective on the subject,
Al. I tried to make clear at the outset that I know how much I don't
know about this, but I *do* know that there is more to it than
"Government bad, Gibson persecuted."

[David Hajicek]

Nice letter.

Dave H

"alcarruth" <alca...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:416b8e3d-577e-47a9...@m7g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...

[David Hajicek]

I don't think we would be complaining about Lacey like we are, if we were
that simple minded.

Dave H

"Larry Brown" <larry...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:e8be0f6c-356e-44ec...@v31g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

On Nov 17, 12:40 pm, alcarruth <alcarr...@aol.com> wrote:
> Larry Brown wrote:
>

snip

[jtees4]

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 06:51:52 -0800 (PST), Larry Brown
<larry...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>For those of you interested in the subject, this is a pretty
>interesting read after you get past the "Gibson is the Cadillac of
>guitars" line. That one gave me a chuckle.

>http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/11/15/130379/green-probe-has-guitar-maker-playing.html

Cadillac got bailed out by the government, Gibson did not. I can't get
passed that part.
********
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610

[jtees4]

On 16 Nov 2011 16:28:29 GMT, Steve Hawkins

Henry is a Republican so he really can't win in the overall media
regardless of any facts. I don't know what Taylor is....but I'm
starting to think it's not Republican.
********
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610

[hank alrich]

jtees4 <jte...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Henry is a Republican so he really can't win in the overall media
> regardless of any facts.

You must be joking. The myth of the liberal media is just that.

[Steve Hawkins]

walk...@nv.net (hank alrich) wrote in news:1kazdj0.kjkkrf1pwud2eN%
walk...@nv.net:

> jtees4 <jte...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Henry is a Republican so he really can't win in the overall media
>> regardless of any facts.
>
> You must be joking. The myth of the liberal media is just that.
>

LOL! So is the myth that it's a myth! :-)

Steve Hawkins

[Steve Hawkins]

jtees4 <jte...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ti5gc7dd9glmpgftv...@4ax.com:

hmmmm....is Gibson a Union shop?

Steve Hawkins

[Ed Edelenbos iPad]

hank alrich <walk...@nv.net> wrote:
> jtees4 <jte...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Henry is a Republican so he really can't win in the overall media
>> regardless of any facts.
>
> You must be joking. The myth of the liberal media is just that.

Kind of amusing that people buy it.

Ed

--
This is posted from my iPad

[hank alrich]

Steve Hawkins <stephen....@frontier.comREMOVETHIS> wrote:

> jtees4 <jte...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:ti5gc7dd9glmpgftv...@4ax.com:
>
> > On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 06:51:52 -0800 (PST), Larry Brown
> > <larry...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>For those of you interested in the subject, this is a pretty
> >>interesting read after you get past the "Gibson is the Cadillac of
> >>guitars" line. That one gave me a chuckle.
> >>http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/11/15/130379/green-probe-has-guitar-mak
> >>er-playing.html
> >
> > Cadillac got bailed out by the government, Gibson did not. I can't get
> > passed that part.

> hmmmm....is Gibson a Union shop?

Wonder how annual gross revenues compare, and how much defense dept.
gear comes from GM?

[Bob Alman]

hank alrich <walk...@nv.net> wrote:
> Steve Hawkins <stephen....@frontier.comREMOVETHIS> wrote:

> > jtees4 <jte...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > news:ti5gc7dd9glmpgftv...@4ax.com:
> >
> > > On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 06:51:52 -0800 (PST), Larry Brown
> > > <larry...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>For those of you interested in the subject, this is a pretty
> > >>interesting read after you get past the "Gibson is the Cadillac of
> > >>guitars" line. That one gave me a chuckle.
> > >>http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/11/15/130379/green-probe-has-guitar-mak
> > >>er-playing.html
> > >
> > > Cadillac got bailed out by the government, Gibson did not. I can't get
> > > passed that part.

> > hmmmm....is Gibson a Union shop?

> Wonder how annual gross revenues compare, and how much defense dept.
> gear comes from GM?

A lot less than there used to be.
--
Bob Alman

[hank alrich]

So you're saying they don't make Chinese transistors??

[JSorell]

Ed Edelenbos iPad <ed...@huh.wha> wrote in
news:282475461343430957...@news.individual.net:

> hank alrich <walk...@nv.net> wrote:
>> jtees4 <jte...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Henry is a Republican so he really can't win in the overall media
>>> regardless of any facts.
>>
>> You must be joking. The myth of the liberal media is just that.
>
> Kind of amusing that people buy it.
>
> Ed
>

See...it all boils down to which media one suckles.

John

[JD]

It has nothing to do with whether the media is
liberal or conservative or even journalism for
that matter. The Supreme Court ruled that news
programs don't have to be factual, that they are
"entertainment". It's all about ratings and
sensationalism. *BUT*, considering that 80% of the
media is owned or controlled by 6 global media
corporations, wouldn't it seem a no brainer to
assume that most of the media panders to a
conservative agenda? Just sayin'.

[Tony Weber]

Poor baby. The media is so mean to Republicans.

[Steve Hawkins]

Tony Weber <mycro...@SOCKSspeakeasy.net> wrote in
news:BdKdnWmhPZ1XzVXT...@megapath.net:

Breakthrough!!! :-)

Steve Hawkins

[Steve Hawkins]

JD <jdblac...@gmail.com> wrote in news:4ec84fbe$0$19970$c3e8da3
$92d0...@news.astraweb.com:

That's like saying George Soros is a conservative because he's filthy
rich.

Steve Hawkins

[hank alrich]

Maybe I should get a TV...

On first thought, maybe not.

[hank alrich]

There you go thinking again. What's with that, anyway??

[Les Cargill]

JD wrote:
> On 11/19/2011 4:37 PM, JSorell wrote:
>> Ed Edelenbos iPad<ed...@huh.wha> wrote in
>> news:282475461343430957...@news.individual.net:
>>
>>> hank alrich<walk...@nv.net> wrote:
>>>> jtees4<jte...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Henry is a Republican so he really can't win in the overall media
>>>>> regardless of any facts.
>>>>
>>>> You must be joking. The myth of the liberal media is just that.
>>>
>>> Kind of amusing that people buy it.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>>
>> See...it all boils down to which media one suckles.
>>
>> John
>>
>
> It has nothing to do with whether the media is liberal or conservative
> or even journalism for that matter. The Supreme Court ruled that news
> programs don't have to be factual, that they are "entertainment".

Well.... they are. It's just a fact. You want facts, you watch Book TV
on CSPAN - and not all those books are factual.

> It's
> all about ratings and sensationalism.

Not all, no.

> *BUT*, considering that 80% of the
> media is owned or controlled by 6 global media corporations, wouldn't it
> seem a no brainer to assume that most of the media panders to a
> conservative agenda? Just sayin'.

No, it would not. As if there is such a thing as a conservative agenda.

Before say, Goldwater, a "conservative" was a white-shoe banker who
had gone to Yale and owned a yacht. Buckley "invented" conservatism
as entertainment product. LBJ invented public TV, basically to keep the
other operating station that competed with his from ... competing with him.

And part of PBS was Firing Line - a big part.

"Conservative" and "liberal" are getting increasingly silly as
terms of art.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

hank alrich wrote:
> JSorell<johnADDA...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ed Edelenbos iPad<ed...@huh.wha> wrote in
>> news:282475461343430957...@news.individual.net:
>>
>>> hank alrich<walk...@nv.net> wrote:
>>>> jtees4<jte...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Henry is a Republican so he really can't win in the overall media
>>>>> regardless of any facts.
>>>>
>>>> You must be joking. The myth of the liberal media is just that.
>>>
>>> Kind of amusing that people buy it.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>>
>> See...it all boils down to which media one suckles.
>>
>> John
>
> Maybe I should get a TV...
>
> On first thought, maybe not.
>

I'd say "Book TV". but most of that streams on yer computer.
Still nice in realtime.

--
Les Cargill

[Mike Brown]

In article <4ec84fbe$0$19970$c3e8da3$92d0...@news.astraweb.com>,

As far as I'm concerned, to call somebody a "journalist" these days is
to be very insulting.

MJRB

[David Hajicek]

"Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote in message
news:ja9qf6$289$1...@dont-email.me...

I have to agree with you on "conservative". I suppose Mitt Romney is the
closest thing to an old time Conservative who is running for office. And it
appears that Those Who Bless Republican Candidates, just hate him because he
is too close to the middle. Nothing "conservative" at all about the rest of
them. Unless you mean conserve wealth above all.

Liberal is tougher as it has only been defined by the "conservatives" as an
absence of being "conservative", their criteria. I don't think "liberals"
have a litmus test like the GOP does. Though many Democrats are too far to
the right (trying to compromise) for my liberal tastes. Compromise doesn't
work when only one side is doing it. That's just plain giving in.

Dave H

[Ed Edelenbos iPad]

Right up there with politician.

[Larry Brown]

On Nov 19, 6:59 pm, Tony Weber <mycroft...@SOCKSspeakeasy.net> wrote:
> On 11/19/2011 12:56 PM, jtees4 wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 16 Nov 2011 16:28:29 GMT, Steve Hawkins

> > <stephen.hawki...@frontier.comREMOVETHIS>  wrote:
>
> >> Larry Brown<larrybro...@hotmail.com>  wrote in

> >>news:990e3e3c-22c4-446c...@g27g2000pre.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>> For those of you interested in the subject, this is a pretty
> >>> interesting read after you get past the "Gibson is the Cadillac of
> >>> guitars" line. That one gave me a chuckle.
> >>>http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/11/15/130379/green-probe-has-guitar-mak
> >>> er-playing.html
>
> >> LOL!  I think the Pope should just declare Bob Taylor a Saint.
>
> >> Steve Hawkins
>
> > Henry is a Republican so he really can't win in the overall media
> > regardless of any facts. I don't know what Taylor is....but I'm
> > starting to think it's not Republican.
> > ********
> >http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610
>
> Poor baby.  The media is so mean to Republicans.

Yeah, those oppressed Republicans just couldn't get a fair shake until
ol' Rupert rode in on his white horse to save the day. A real American
hero. Oh, wait...

[Geezer]

"Ed Edelenbos iPad" <ed...@huh.wha> wrote in message
news:1220384041343486998...@news.individual.net...

Politician is simply a fancy way of spelling 'crook'.


Geezer


This is posted from my dog's pee pad

[Larry Brown]

On Nov 20, 1:01 am, Mike Brown <rocko...@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> In article <4ec84fbe$0$19970$c3e8da3$92d0a...@news.astraweb.com>,

>
>
>
>  JD <jdblackwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 11/19/2011 4:37 PM, JSorell wrote:

> > > Ed Edelenbos iPad<e...@huh.wha>  wrote in
> > >news:282475461343430957...@news.individual.net:
>
> > >> hank alrich<walki...@nv.net>  wrote:

> > >>> jtees4<jte...@hotmail.com>  wrote:
>
> > >>>> Henry is a Republican so he really can't win in the overall media
> > >>>> regardless of any facts.
>
> > >>> You must be joking. The myth of the liberal media is just that.
>
> > >> Kind of amusing that people buy it.
>
> > >> Ed
>
> > > See...it all boils down to which media one suckles.
>
> > > John
>
> > It has nothing to do with whether the media is
> > liberal or conservative or even journalism for
> > that matter. The Supreme Court ruled that news
> > programs don't have to be factual, that they are
> > "entertainment". It's all about ratings and
> > sensationalism. *BUT*, considering that 80% of the
> > media is owned or controlled by 6 global media
> > corporations, wouldn't it seem a no brainer to
> > assume that most of the media panders to a
> > conservative agenda?  Just sayin'.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, to call somebody a "journalist" these days is
> to be very insulting.
>
> MJRB

Well that's been the very successful plan for awhile now. "You can't
trust 'the meeeedia', but you can trust 'us'."

[JSorell]

JD <jdblac...@gmail.com> wrote in news:4ec84fbe$0$19970$c3e8da3
$92d0...@news.astraweb.com:

Are you addressing me or the people who live their lives according to
their respective media choices?

John

[JD]

To call the spin doctors and propagandists
"journalists" is insulting to *real* journalists.

[JD]

Hellifino. Didn't think I was addressing anyone
specifically.

[Bob Alman]

hank alrich <walk...@nv.net> wrote:
> Bob Alman <g...@sonic.net> wrote:

> > hank alrich <walk...@nv.net> wrote:
> > > Steve Hawkins <stephen....@frontier.comREMOVETHIS> wrote:
> >
> > > > jtees4 <jte...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > > > news:ti5gc7dd9glmpgftv...@4ax.com:
> > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 06:51:52 -0800 (PST), Larry Brown
> > > > > <larry...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >>For those of you interested in the subject, this is a pretty
> > > > >>interesting read after you get past the "Gibson is the Cadillac of
> > > > >>guitars" line. That one gave me a chuckle.
> > > > >>http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/11/15/130379/green-probe-has-guitar-mak
> > > > >>er-playing.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Cadillac got bailed out by the government, Gibson did not. I can't get
> > > > > passed that part.
> >
> > > > hmmmm....is Gibson a Union shop?
> >
> > > Wonder how annual gross revenues compare, and how much defense dept.
> > > gear comes from GM?
> >
> > A lot less than there used to be.

> So you're saying they don't make Chinese transistors??

It's nothing new in the "hire em/ fire em" world,
but programs are getting deep cuts, and pink slips
are raining down on the workers. A lot of defense
contractors are hurting pretty bad now. It's just
a reality, but don't assume a defense oriented
business is immune to the economic situation or
necessarily garners any favor.
--
Bob Alman

[hank alrich]

Thanks, Bob.

[Mike Brown]

In article <4ec944e8$0$3976$c3e8da3$b23f...@news.astraweb.com>,

Unfortunately there are few of them left now. Literate, intelligent,
honest writers are a rare breed, and some of them are stuck with crappy
editors and owners.

MJRB

[LA]

On Nov 20, 2:24 pm, Bob Alman <g...@sonic.net> wrote:
Chinese transistors??
>
> It's nothing new in the "hire em/ fire em" world,
> but programs are getting deep cuts, and pink slips
> are raining down on the workers.  A lot of defense
> contractors are hurting pretty bad now.  It's just
> a reality, but don't assume a defense oriented
> business is immune to the economic situation or
> necessarily garners any favor.

Perish the thought.

LA

[Larry Brown]

On Nov 20, 4:33 pm, Mike Brown <rocko...@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> In article <4ec944e8$0$3976$c3e8da3$b23f1...@news.astraweb.com>,

>
>
>
>  JD <jdblackwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 11/20/2011 5:13 AM, Ed Edelenbos iPad wrote:

> > > Mike Brown<rocko...@chariot.net.au>  wrote:
> > >> In article<4ec84fbe$0$19970$c3e8da3$92d0a...@news.astraweb.com>,
> > >>   JD<jdblackwe...@gmail.com>  wrote:

>
> > >>> On 11/19/2011 4:37 PM, JSorell wrote:

> > >>>> Ed Edelenbos iPad<e...@huh.wha>   wrote in
> > >>>>news:282475461343430957...@news.individual.net:

I don't know what papers or websites you read, Mike, but "Literate,
intelligent, honest writers are a rare breed" just doesn't ring true
for me. If anything those people are out there now more than ever, or
at least there is more of a platform for them outside the "mainstream
meeedia".
I guess I hate the dismissive demonizing attitude directed at the
press that is so prevalent nowadays because I grew up being told how
important a free press is, and listening to Spiro Agnew berate them. I
knew even then "If this guy doesn't like 'em they can't be all bad."
For all it's failings, shortcomings or faults,(the press is after all
made up of humans) I'll still take 'the media' over the alternative,
which is not having one.
"News is what somebody somewhere is trying to suppress. The rest is
advertising."
Okay, I'm sure that is more than enough soapboxing for a Monday
morning.

[Larry Brown]

On Nov 20, 4:33 pm, Mike Brown <rocko...@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> In article <4ec944e8$0$3976$c3e8da3$b23f1...@news.astraweb.com>,
>
>
>

>  JD <jdblackwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 11/20/2011 5:13 AM, Ed Edelenbos iPad wrote:

> > > Mike Brown<rocko...@chariot.net.au>  wrote:
> > >> In article<4ec84fbe$0$19970$c3e8da3$92d0a...@news.astraweb.com>,

> > >>   JD<jdblackwe...@gmail.com>  wrote:

>
> > >>> On 11/19/2011 4:37 PM, JSorell wrote:

> > >>>> Ed Edelenbos iPad<e...@huh.wha>   wrote in
> > >>>>news:282475461343430957...@news.individual.net:

Ah, *now* I get it:
"Murdoch, who was born in Australia, “has a near monopolistic control
of the media in many major cities,” notes Joe Romm. His media empire
includes the largest Australian newspaper – The Australian – as well
as “the sole dailies in Brisbane, Adelaide, Hobart and Darwin and the
most popular metropolitan dailies in Sydney and Melbourne.”

[JSorell]

Larry Brown <larry...@hotmail.com> wrote in

news:22a3aa3f-2498-40a8...@gl2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:

I miss Lou Grant.

John

[Ed Edelenbos iPad]

I miss Ted Knight.

[Mike Brown]

In article
<22a3aa3f-2498-40a8...@gl2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

> most popular metropolitan dailies in Sydney and Melbourne.²

Bingo.

MJRB