Singing and breathing while holding a guitar
Leebert
to play the instrument well enough to concentrate on the music coming out.
In early choir lessons or voice lessons etc, they teach you to stand up
straight (military style) and breath using your diaphragm, which is contrary
to the way most people breath. Once you get used to breathing that way,
singing that way, you'll find that you can do it at will in any position you
happen to be in. For instance, many operatic arias are performed onstage
with the performer laying down, sitting down, kneeling, dancing around,
climbing trellises, and I'd be willing to bet that you or I will never be
able to sing as well as they. However, practice is the only real key. Once
you've mastered the art of "proper musical breathing", you'll find that you
do it even when you're not singing. Living near the mountains, I do a lot
of hiking, biking, snow shoeing et al. Being able to breath using my
diaphragm helps with all of those activities. I confess, I haven't done any
Wagner on top of the mountain lately, so can't bear witness to how it works
singing on a peak. Hopes this helps.
ClydeII <cly...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990503210921...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
> I am not a trained singer and I'm hoping that someone out there has
thought
> about this. I went to a 3 hr. workshop with a real voice teacher. I
realized
> later that it was very hard to sing the way she told us - supporting your
> breathing from your diaphram - with a big flat guitar back pressing
against
> your stomach. At least when playing standing up - she said singing while
> sitting was hopeless regardless. I asked the teacher about this after the
> workshop and she looked at me like I had manure on my boots. Anyone have
any
> ideas? Have I explained the problem adequately?
Olin Murrell
ClydeII wrote in message
<19990503210921...@ng-fb1.aol.com>...
>I am not a trained singer and I'm hoping that someone out there has
thought
>about this. I went to a 3 hr. workshop with a real voice teacher. I
realized
>later that it was very hard to sing the way she told us - supporting
your
>breathing from your diaphram - with a big flat guitar back pressing
against
>your stomach. At least when playing standing up - she said singing
while
>sitting was hopeless regardless. I asked the teacher about this
after the
>workshop and she looked at me like I had manure on my boots. Anyone
have any
>ideas? Have I explained the problem adequately?
Yeah, and if your voice coach looked at you "like I had manure on my
boots," get another voice teacher.
The weight of the guitar on your stomach should not really be much of
a deterrent to singing and playing while standing up. In some ways, it
can actually help, giving your abdominal muscles something to push
against.
In any event, once you get comfortable with proper breathing, and
bringing your voice from the diaphragm, instead of mostly throat,
you'll find that your stomach doesn't really rise and fall as much as
it does during the exaggeration of the early lessons and practice.
The dynamic, as it's been explained to me a few times, is that we've
all sort of either been taught to breath with our chest, so our gut
doesn't poke out, and that's really not correct, regardless of whether
you're a singer or not. The abdominal wall plays a very important role
in drawing air into the lungs, and for singing, it plays a truly vital
role in breath control in BOTH directions.
It'll get better.
Good luck.
John
>I am not a trained singer and I'm hoping that someone out there has thought
>about this. I went to a 3 hr. workshop with a real voice teacher. I realized
>later that it was very hard to sing the way she told us - supporting your
>breathing from your diaphram - with a big flat guitar back pressing against
>your stomach. At least when playing standing up - she said singing while
>sitting was hopeless regardless. I asked the teacher about this after the
>workshop and she looked at me like I had manure on my boots. Anyone have any
>ideas? Have I explained the problem adequately?
First, she probably didn't look at you as if you had manure on your
boots. You probably just thought that (or did you have manure on your
boots???)
Anyway .....
Your teacher is correct - you should learn the right way - and there
are reasons. Now. This is not to say that you cannot sing with a
guitar, or sing sitting. The teacher just insists you *learn* her way.
The way my teacher explained it is - she's not going to hold a gun to
my head when I'm outside of lessons, but while I'm in lessons - watch
out.
Once you learn to breath and keep that jaw low, by habit, things will
fall into place naturally. I became more conscious of breathing and
jaw position after I took lessons, and I can watch a singer - say
Margaret Becker for instance, - or better yet, Chris Dente - and
even when they're sitting, or playing guitar (Margaret plays guitar)
, you can see they have pretty much perfect breath control and
technique, and they do employ classical technique. Watch Sarah
McLachlan. Don't watch Alanis Morrisette (if you want to see good
technique).
It really does feel extremely alien when you first are learning breath
and mouth technique - but it does become habit. A good teacher will
definitely explain everything in anatomical detail, too.
If you live near a University that has a music school, you can almost
always find a grad student or two who give lessons. Try to find one
with training in pedagogy.
Good luck,
John
John Lane
>Don't watch Alanis Morrisette (if you want to see good
>technique).
Hrmph. To each his own. I'll take her technique any day of the week, thank
you.
Mark
ClydeII
vickers...@my-dejanews.com
>I went to a 3 hr. workshop with a real voice teacher. I realized
> later that it was very hard to sing the way she told us - supporting your
> breathing from your diaphram - with a big flat guitar back pressing against
> your stomach. At least when playing standing up - she said singing while
> sitting was hopeless regardless.
While I'm sure that your voice coach is quite good at teaching voice, like
many people who concentrate on one discipline their view of (other) things is
quite narrow. True, you will never get great voice "projection" while
sitting down, but your goal while playing a guitar and singing is not to be a
technically perfect singer nor a technically perfect guitar player but rather
to have fun and entertain (either an audience or just for yourself!).
I've never been a big fan of technically perfect anything (except when it
comes to lottery numbers). One of my favorite albums as far as vocals go (as
far as anything goes for that matter) is "Murmur" by R.E.M., and rumor has it
that Stipe sang the whole thing while flat on his back (so there!).
Regards,
Vickers
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Mav
>I am not a trained singer and I'm hoping that someone out there has thought
>about this. I went to a 3 hr. workshop with a real voice teacher. I realized
>later that it was very hard to sing the way she told us - supporting your
>breathing from your diaphram - with a big flat guitar back pressing against
>your stomach. At least when playing standing up - she said singing while
>sitting was hopeless regardless. I asked the teacher about this after the
>workshop and she looked at me like I had manure on my boots. Anyone have any
>ideas? Have I explained the problem adequately?
Hmmm...ideas.
1. Saddle soap.
2. Solo fingerstyle, no vocals.
Probably not very helpful, but gained from personal experience.
-Mav
Mike Pugh
study. I'm taking it on faith that classical technique is applicable to any
style (perhaps with some adjustments once I learn the correct way), and
trying to avoid the inclination that my belly was ALREADY large enough,
thankyouverymuch. My limited understanding is that holding a guitar
shouldn't really effect the technique, except as a distraction.
I'd go with the flow with this voice instructor, but if she still has an
attitude after a month or so, look for someone with whom you enjoy working.
Cheers
--
Mike Pugh
nobuski...@erols.com
remove nospam for a spamless reply
Mav wrote in message <372e9466...@news.earthlink.net>...
craftygirl
> I am not a trained singer and I'm hoping that someone out there has thought
> about this. I went to a 3 hr. workshop with a real voice teacher. I realized
> later that it was very hard to sing the way she told us - supporting your
> breathing from your diaphram - with a big flat guitar back pressing against
> your stomach.
Hi Clyde,
I took voice lessons many years ago but the basic principles remain with me.
Plus, it's pretty much the same for singing as it is playing wind instruments,
and I still do plenty of both. :)
Anyway, my voice teacher was pretty snobby, too, and I guess you have to look
at the whole situation. Was it a one-time thing, or are you trying to develop
a rapport and take lots of lessons from this person?
And as far as the technical question: I agree with Olin in that sometimes it
might be easier with the guitar there. If you practice, you will find that
breathing from your diaphragm comes naturally to you. Also, your breath rate
(breaths per minute) will probably slow down if you keep up the deep
breathing. I know this is what happened to me, and even when I'm winded I
tend to breathe kind of slowly. Supposedly this does good things for your
heart rate too. <shrugs>
Stick with it, you'll get there. And singing sitting down or even lying flat
on your back is entirely possible. I think lying flat would even be easier
than sitting just because the abs are not squished up. LOL
Later
shannon/craftygirl
Look here for info on the RMMGA East Coast gathering:
http://homestead.dejanews.com/user.craftygirl/index.html
Bob Lusk
breathing, I realized I had been ignoring my upper chest. I wa singing a Paul
Robeson song, with guitar and found that when I filled up my *whole* chest my
voice was much stronger and clearer.
Bob
Bob Lusk
61 Wurts Street
Kingston, New York, 12401
bob...@aol.com
Bob
> thought
> >about this. I went to a 3 hr. workshop with a real voice teacher. I
> realized
> >later that it was very hard to sing the way she told us - supporting
> your
> >breathing from your diaphram - with a big flat guitar back pressing
> against
> while
> >sitting was hopeless regardless. I asked the teacher about this
> after the
> >workshop and she looked at me like I had manure on my boots. Anyone
> have any
> >ideas? Have I explained the problem adequately?
>
> boots," get another voice teacher.
>
> The weight of the guitar on your stomach should not really be much of
> a deterrent to singing and playing while standing up. In some ways, it
> can actually help, giving your abdominal muscles something to push
> against.
>
> In any event, once you get comfortable with proper breathing, and
> bringing your voice from the diaphragm, instead of mostly throat,
> you'll find that your stomach doesn't really rise and fall as much as
> it does during the exaggeration of the early lessons and practice.
>
> The dynamic, as it's been explained to me a few times, is that we've
> all sort of either been taught to breath with our chest, so our gut
> doesn't poke out, and that's really not correct, regardless of whether
> you're a singer or not. The abdominal wall plays a very important role
> in drawing air into the lungs, and for singing, it plays a truly vital
> role in breath control in BOTH directions.
>
> It'll get better.
>
> Good luck.
help you.
If you think she looked at you funny, you should have seem my vocal
instructor (many years ago) when she showed up at one of my gigs, and
caught me sitting down, breathing improperly, slouching, drinking beer
between songs, and smoking while singing and playing! She decided I
wasn't serious enough, and informed me not to bother to come back to
class, unless I was willing to apply myself. This in itself is not
unique, because I had several teachers/instructors of all types tell me
the same thing over the years.
I'd personally hang in there with your instructor, the small amount of
vocal instruction I did receive has proven quite helpful.
Bob Dorgan
Will Borgeson
: you.
: Mark
Take it then...puhleeze! ;=>
Will
John Rusling
have improved immensely.
Also, though, I am still (always) working on doing the guitar and
the vocals at the same time and doing both well. It seems I
either concentrate on one or the other depending on the song.
It's Just Fun Learning!!!
john b.r.
John Zyla
to emulate, and her lyrics pedestrian - at best. Of course, you've
got to realize I'm 44 years old, a parent, and when my son bought a
"Korn" CD, it went into the trash when I saw it. I don't see the point
of the "f" word every other word. I find it insulting to ones
character to listen to such trash. Same with Marilyn Manson (and a
myriad of others) - his CD's don't make an appearance in my
household.
On Mon, 3 May 1999 23:15:34 -0400, "John Lane"
<mist...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>John wrote
>
>>Don't watch Alanis Morrisette (if you want to see good
>>technique).
>
>
craftygirl
> >Don't watch Alanis Morrisette (if you want to see good
> >technique).
> Hrmph. To each his own. I'll take her technique any day of the week, thank
> you.
> Mark
We were talking BREATHING Mark. ;)
--
Olin Murrell
Bob <"d77...@epix.net"@epix.net> wrote in message
<7gms2g$6as$1...@news1.epix.net>...
>Olin Murrell wrote:
>>
>> ClydeII wrote in message
>> <19990503210921...@ng-fb1.aol.com>...
>> >I am not a trained singer and I'm hoping that someone out there
has
>> thought
>> >about this. I went to a 3 hr. workshop with a real voice teacher.
I
>> realized
>> >later that it was very hard to sing the way she told us -
supporting
>> your
>> >breathing from your diaphram - with a big flat guitar back
pressing
>> against
>> >your stomach. At least when playing standing up - she said
singing
>> while
>> >sitting was hopeless regardless. I asked the teacher about this
>> after the
>> >workshop and she looked at me like I had manure on my boots.
Anyone
>> have any
>> >ideas? Have I explained the problem adequately?
>>
my
Agreed, but I'd still be a little suspicious of a vocal coach who
looked at me "like I had manure on my boots," when I merely ask a
question about playing a guitar and singing (using proper diaphragm
technique). It's not an unreasonable question.
>If you think she looked at you funny, you should have seem my vocal
>instructor (many years ago) when she showed up at one of my gigs, and
>caught me sitting down, breathing improperly, slouching, drinking
beer
>between songs, and smoking while singing and playing! She decided I
>wasn't serious enough, and informed me not to bother to come back to
>class, unless I was willing to apply myself. This in itself is not
>unique, because I had several teachers/instructors of all types tell
me
>the same thing over the years.
My old vocal coach (and she's a damned fine jazz singer) understood
the weakness of the flesh, and demanded strict attention to detail
only for lessons and practice, though she DID say (and she was right
too) that lessons learned properly would find their way into live
performance.
I didn't stop smoking. I didn't stop slouching altogether, but I DID
get that voice out of my throat, and down in my gut where it belongs.
Not that I'm a great singer, by any standard, but it did make a world
of difference for me.
>I'd personally hang in there with your instructor, the small amount
of
>vocal instruction I did receive has proven quite helpful.
>Bob Dorgan
Agreed.
Jas
>
> "John Lane" <mist...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > >Don't watch Alanis Morrisette (if you want to see good
> > >technique).
>
> > Hrmph. To each his own. I'll take her technique any day of the week, thank
> > you.
> > Mark
>
> We were talking BREATHING Mark. ;)
...And he's talking about heavy breathing... same thing, right? ;]
--
Jas ţe O'Growney
http://www.shocking.com/~jas
--
When Life does not find a singer to sing her heart she produces a
philosopher to speak her mind. -Kahlil Gibran (1883-1931) [Sand and
Foam]
john bj
your guitar strap a wee bit so it sits more on your chest and less on your
stomach. I've always had my guitar high, probably a bluegrass/mandolin
holdover, because I find it easier to pick, but discovered it's also easier
to sing, and the guitar doesn't get scratched by my belt buckle (of course
you can also buckle your belt on the side like many players do), and I don't
need a John Pearse armrest because my forearm doesn't even touch the top of
my guitar, plus I don't need as long a straw for the drink I balance on the
upper bout, and the neck's easier for the bass player to duck under when I
turn to ask him a question, and it hides the stains on my shirt better, and
<whack>
OK, seriously, if it doesn't interfere with your playing technique, you want
to try hiking up your guitar a wee bit...
peace and joy,
jbj
Al Evans
<ol...@nashville.com> wrote:
> Agreed, but I'd still be a little suspicious of a vocal coach who
> looked at me "like I had manure on my boots,"
> My old vocal coach (and she's a damned fine jazz singer) understood
> the weakness of the flesh
If I'm guessing right about who Olin's old vocal coach is (and I
suspect I am, seems like everybody in Austin who can sing has had at
least a few lessons with Mady Kaye), she would NEVER in a million years
look at you "like you had manure on your boots". And I've sat in front
of her, playing my guitar and singing, plenty of times. We have our
differences (after all, she's a jazz singer and I'm not), but I give
serious consideration to everything she tells me. And she's right at
least 90% of the time. I've learned more about singing in 19 lessons
with her than I'd learned in 50 years on my own.
Uh, yeah, the point -- singing in front of someone, especially if
you're new at it, is a fairly intimate activity. One friend of mine had
a teacher who made her so nervous she couldn't sing at all at her
lessons. You will make MUCH better progress dealing with a teacher who
makes you comfortable and can work with what you want to sing, and how
you want to sing it.
--Al Evans--
Al Evans and PowerTools -- a...@powertools.com
Specializing in design and development of high-performance cross-platform
multimedia frameworks and applications for MacOS and Windows 32
Olin Murrell
Al Evans wrote in message <050519990809577240%a...@powertools.com>...
>In article <7gnb07$kiv$1...@remarQ.com>, "Olin Murrell"
><ol...@nashville.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Agreed, but I'd still be a little suspicious of a vocal coach who
>> looked at me "like I had manure on my boots,"
>
>> My old vocal coach (and she's a damned fine jazz singer) understood
>> the weakness of the flesh
>
>If I'm guessing right about who Olin's old vocal coach is (and I
>suspect I am, seems like everybody in Austin who can sing has had at
>least a few lessons with Mady Kaye), she would NEVER in a million
years
>look at you "like you had manure on your boots". And I've sat in
front
>of her, playing my guitar and singing, plenty of times. We have our
>differences (after all, she's a jazz singer and I'm not), but I give
>serious consideration to everything she tells me. And she's right at
>least 90% of the time. I've learned more about singing in 19 lessons
>with her than I'd learned in 50 years on my own.
>
One and the same! And, you're right. She'd NEVER give you that "look."
She'd flat out say, "Bubba, you have horseshit on your boots!"
I only had four or five lessons with her, because that was all I
needed to learn (or maybe relearn) breathing technique, and how to
change a head and throat voice into something better. I'll NEVER be a
great singer, but I'm a damned site better for having taken some
tutelage from her. She helped me find my proper range. Like most
folks, I was always trying to sing too high, and had no power in the
more natural lower registers!
I highly recommend her to anybody wanting to learn how to sing better!
Another good one, though I've only attended a few seminars, is Debbie
Beinhorn, out of Houston!
>Uh, yeah, the point -- singing in front of someone, especially if
>you're new at it, is a fairly intimate activity. One friend of mine
had
>a teacher who made her so nervous she couldn't sing at all at her
>lessons. You will make MUCH better progress dealing with a teacher
who
>makes you comfortable and can work with what you want to sing, and
how
>you want to sing it.
>
Absolutely! Singing should not be about satisfying the coach, but
rather YOU. You're the one handing over money to learn. If you don't
apply yourself, it's not the coach's problem, and they still have your
money!
I remain more than a tad suspicious of folks who can't bear for their
customers to pay and "waste their time." Give me a break!
csv...@my-dejanews.com
First off, I have not read all the responses so forgive me if this is
repetitive. I, too, have found singing and playing guitar a challenge from a
breathing perspective. I have related some of this challenge to the fact
that I have a gut that the guitar rests against. Now, I consider myself
significantly overweight, but others look at me funny when I say I need to
lose weight, so I wouldn't clasify myself as fat. Anyway, the fact that the
guitar is at a slight angle contributes to the pressure it exerts on the ol'
tummy. Does any of this sound familiar to you?
If it does, what I have found helps considerable is doing a little exercise to
get some air moving. You know, jumping jacks or even a little jumping around.
When I was in choir in college, the director would have us do situps before
rehearsal to get the blood flowing. It really helped.
All of this will help compensate for the extra effort it takes to breath while
playing the guitar. Anyway, this works for me.
Regards,
Scott
In article <19990503210921...@ng-fb1.aol.com>,
cly...@aol.com (ClydeII) wrote:
> I am not a trained singer and I'm hoping that someone out there has thought
> about this. I went to a 3 hr. workshop with a real voice teacher. I realized
> later that it was very hard to sing the way she told us - supporting your
> breathing from your diaphram - with a big flat guitar back pressing against
> your stomach. At least when playing standing up - she said singing while
> sitting was hopeless regardless. I asked the teacher about this after the
> workshop and she looked at me like I had manure on my boots. Anyone have any
> ideas? Have I explained the problem adequately?
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
ClydeII
event originally described was a one-time thing - a workshop for about 20
people designed to get us started. So I don't have to worry about whether this
would be a good longer-term relationship. I wish I had time for regular
lessons.
Olin Murrell
four lessons with a good coach can accomplish.
Good luck.
ClydeII wrote in message
<19990505184932...@ng-fw1.aol.com>...
TheMonk
diaphragm. No one is supposed to look pretty when they sing, so if you have
a gut and you sound good, so be it.
--
Cedric Satterfield,
Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, Xi Alpha chapter
"Cum saxum saxorum induersum montum oparum da,
In aeribulum In quinatum,
Draconis!"
-Book of Pherllyt