Amateur Installation of B-band or Dual Source
DReke
the B-band pickup/mic combination in my Taylor 714. Unfortunately I have not
found any luthiers in my area who have installed either. (In fact, they
weren't even familiar with the B-band.) So I'm thinking about just doing the
installation myself.
Is that a good or a bad idea? Have any of you installed either of those
yourself? How difficult would that be?
BTW - this is a great newsgroup. It seems like just about everyone wants to
help folks, and I greatly appreciate the good advice I've gotten.
Dan R.
Larry Pattis
Dan,
You haven't told us if you have some tools, or if you are "handy" with
things in general. The B-band doesn't require much, tool-wise, and since
you've got a Taylor, that means that the endpin is pre-drilled to the
correct diameter. Might be a piece of cake for you, then again, it might
not. No one here can give you a definitive answer about what you can
handle! There is only one small hole to drill through your bridge's saddle
slot, at an angle for both the Baggs and B-Band (so you need to be careful
to not drill through a brace), and that might well be the scariest part.
I have installed over a couple of hundred pick-ups, including dozens of
B-bands and Baggs equipment. Any reasonably intelligent person can do the
installation, but you may have problems with saddle height and/or string to
string volume balance.
The fact that your local shp(s) have not heard of the B-band is not
surprising, nor will it deter me from making this comment; that is, anyone
that has installed ANY of the current pick-ups can install a B-band (as
long as they can read!), in fact the B-band is easier to work with because
no soldering is required. This may also be true of the Baggs equipment, it
is not true for Fishman.
BTW, I had a good laugh while on the phone with Jeff Traugott today, since
I (finally) am having difficulties balancing a B-band in one of my own
guitars. Jeff mentioned that even with his perfect saddle slots (well he
didn't use the word perfect, but *I* am) and carefully produced saddles, he
has trouble more often than not with ALL of the pick-ups out there. (if
you don't know who Jeff Traugott is, well, let's just say that his guitars,
along with Linda Manzer and James Olson, are the most sought after guitars
in the business. While we were on the phone Colin Hay called...)
So it's really your call about what to do. The B-band comes with very
explicit instructions, I don't remember how the Baggs instructions compare,
but they are probably as good.
Best of luck,
Larry Pattis
Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
McCollum
you rave about Jeff's guitars , then your selling your's! then rave about
Goodall
now your saying jeff is one of the most sought after builders out their ??
give me a F@#@ing break ! He may have the biggest balls ! By priceing
his guitars @ 6,850.00 $........but has priced himself out of the range of
even the most secure musician's. were talking collecter's here !
Lance
p.s the balanceing problems with B-Bands sucks, If you want one send me
5.00$ and I'll send you one of the one's I've takeing out of my customers
guitar's
Larry Pattis wrote in message ...
Hojo2X
I've heard from other builders and guitar repair techs:
regardless of whether one likes the tone of the B-Bands, they do, in fact, have
a greater problem with getting a proper string balance than most of the other
brands out there. Trying to diminish the significance of the problem by
claiming it is spread out evenly with other brands is just not accurate.
Wade Hampton Miller
hed...@my-deja.com
You haven't told us if you have some tools, or if you are "handy" with
> things in general. The B-band doesn't require much, tool-wise, and
since
> you've got a Taylor, that means that the endpin is pre-drilled to the
> correct diameter. Might be a piece of cake for you, then again, it
might
> not. No one here can give you a definitive answer about what you can
> handle! There is only one small hole to drill through your bridge's
saddle
> slot, at an angle for both the Baggs and B-Band (so you need to be
careful
> to not drill through a brace), and that might well be the scariest
part.
I agree with the advice you have offered. I think that with the Taylor,
the hole through the saddle slot might not be a big problem either. I
am told (but have not seen) that in recent years Taylor has been
drilling a hole through all their bridges (but not the top). So, all
one would need to do is drill a .125" hole at the same place and angle
using the hole in the bridge as a guide.
When I installed a Baggs Dual Source in my Taylor (which was made in
'91), I drilled the hole on the treble side. I don't recall for sure,
but I think that is the side that Baggs recommended. On the B-band
website it says to drill on the bass side. Is this an important
consideration with the B-band?
About saddle height. The B-band is sufficiently thin that no adjustment
is recquired. Is that your experience? The Baggs RT is supposed to be
.048" thick, but it seems to compress a little so if I were doing it
again (actually, I did) I would probably shave only about .040 off the
bottom of the saddle.
Harold
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Larry Pattis
(Hojo2X) wrote:
I am not going to respond at all to Lance's angry post, but I will point
out a few things via Wade's calm, but not fully accurate post.
This has ALL been said (by me) before.
All saddle elements have a tendancy to string balance problems.
The original B-band was indeed more prone to these problems, but the
problems were fairly easy to correct, if you know how (NOT rocket science,
simple applications of pressure via paper shims, a common luthier trick).
The NEW B-band element (distributed with the Core99) has about the same
tendancy as any other pick-up to have balance problems. No more, no less.
If any one cares to dispute me on this, well, they had better have
installed (themselves) about two dozen of them, because I already have.
As I said, ALL of these things have been presented by me before on rmmga.
If anyone NOW does not make some distinction between the original gear
(which again, was not too hard to deal with) and the new gear (which is
extremely easy to deal with) from EMF, well, they are possibly (I said
possibly) guilty of having an agenda (just like folks think *I* have).
When Wade says "they do, in fact, have a greater problem with getting a
proper string balance than most of the other brands out there" I have a
problem with this, since he is NOT making a distinction between the the
original, and the new, current B-band.
I am NOT trying diminish any problems, as it is a well known fact (by any
reputable and honest repair person) that ALL saddle elements ARE prone
to this problem. I dispute your comment Wade, in that the builders and
guitar techs that *I* know do not think the B-band is much of a problem
(certainly not as big as is being made out here), and that includes the
original gear.
Are we in the middle of another B-band debate?
Why?
Any original condition B-bands that Lance has, I'd be more than happy to
buy for $5 a piece. Send 'em on over.
Larry "my agenda is the truth about things" Pattis
Larry Pattis
I don't think so, the B-band saddle element is uniform in response it's
last few inches. Probably a nod in the direction of custom.
>
> About saddle height. The B-band is sufficiently thin that no adjustment
> is recquired. Is that your experience? The Baggs RT is supposed to be
> .048" thick, but it seems to compress a little so if I were doing it
> again (actually, I did) I would probably shave only about .040 off the
> bottom of the saddle.
The new B-band element is a tad thicker than the original, so there may be
a small but noticable change in string height. Always best to measure
these things before hand, and write them down. That way, you'll know for
sure.
>
> Harold
Larry Pattis
John Zyla
am able to install b-band pickups without any balancing problems, the
first time every time - and without using those d**ned
post-it-shims, either. The shims are a real bummer, and hit or miss at
best. It's all in your process.
John Zyla
Bob Dorgan
>
> The B-Band just requires a different seating technique, that's all. I
> am able to install b-band pickups without any balancing problems, the
> first time every time - and without using those d**ned
> post-it-shims, either. The shims are a real bummer, and hit or miss at
> best. It's all in your process.
>
> John Zyla
>
can you elaborate on this, or is this one of those trade secrets you
guys keep to yourselves so the rest of us can be kept in the dark? <G>
Bob Dorgan
George Reiswig
I've got two guitars, and have beta-tested for B-Band from very early on.
As Larry says, the early versions were prone to balance problems: too much
*or* too little pressure underneath particular strings resulted in reduced
output. (Ville Numela (sp.?) gave some excellent reasons from the physics
perspective for this behavior) I had those problems, too, and told B-Band
about them. They were VERY aware of the problem, since all of their beta
testers were giving them the same feedback.
One of the things about the EMF folks...they never stop trying to respond to
the user feedback they get, which to me is the mark of a good company.
Heikki and friends went back to work, and I got (within the past few months)
newer pickups from them. I can honestly say that with each successive
design, they have gotten better: better balance right off the bat, better
signal/noise ratio, and actually somewhat better tone, IMHO. While I have
only installed a couple of Baggs Ribbons, I really think that the most
recent incarnation of the B-Band is at *least* as easy to balance. If you
get one and have trouble balancing it, e-mail me and I'll be happy to help
you tinker with it until it's right.
No, I am not a compensated endorser of EMF.
As for Traugott guitars...well, I think I'll stick with my Lowden and humble
Yamaha.
George "Satisfied Customer and not a Pattis Relative" Reiswig
Larry Pattis wrote in message ...
>In article <19990702023259...@ng-bg1.aol.com>, hoj...@aol.com
>(Hojo2X) wrote:
>
>> Well, Lance may have said it a bit harshly, but his opinion concurs with
what
>> I've heard from other builders and guitar repair techs:
>> regardless of whether one likes the tone of the B-Bands, they do, in
>fact, have
>> a greater problem with getting a proper string balance than most of the
other
>> brands out there. Trying to diminish the significance of the problem by
>> claiming it is spread out evenly with other brands is just not accurate.
>>
>>
>> Wade Hampton Miller
>
>
>Larry "my agenda is the truth about things" Pattis
hed...@my-deja.com
> Hi John,
> can you elaborate on this, or is this one of those trade secrets you
> guys keep to yourselves so the rest of us can be kept in the dark? <G>
> Bob Dorgan
Now, that's a good question. Some say that you are at least half a Bob
off, but I don't agree. Seems like a perfectly on the Bob question to
me.
The B-band seems to be a reasonably priced little deal and I am tempted
to buy one to install in an old 00-18 that I have laying around. John,
do you think you could elaborate a little on what you think are the most
technique sensitive aspects when installing one of these suckers?
Hojo2X
>The original B-band was indeed more prone to these problems, but the
>problems were fairly easy to correct, if you know how
>The NEW B-band element (distributed with the Core99) has about the same
>tendancy as any other pick-up to have balance problems.
Okay, Larry, fair enough - for the sake of gentlemanly discussion, I'll accept
that.
I will point out that during the time the original B-Bands were exhibiting
these problems, you were publicly denying that there were any problems at all,
instead choosing to blame the "incompetence" of the repair techs and luthers
who were having such difficulties installing them. My repairman, who has been
in the business for over 30 years, called the B-Band the most difficult
installation he has ever seen. And he is a high level thinker and mechanical
problem solver of the higherst order.
You continued:
>When Wade says "they do, in fact, have a greater problem with getting a>proper
string balance than most of the other brands out there" I have a>problem with
this, since he is NOT making a distinction between the the>original, and the
new, current>B-band.
Once again, Larry, fair enough.
The B-Band you sold Mark Kuwada a year ago for his son's D-35 has gone south,
exhibiting (yes) severe string balance problems. This is after being extremely
difficult to get balanced in the first place. Once it was working, it worked
pretty well for about eight months, then started gradually deteriorating - at
least that's how I understand it.
The gentlemen in Finland are graciously sending out a new one, which,
presumably, will be the new model of which you speak. This will give us the
opportunity to examine both in an A-B comparison. Hopefully, though, the
problems will cease.
If the new B-Band is as good as you claim it is, I will be happy to say so.
Wade Hampton Miller
Larry Pattis
(Hojo2X) wrote:
> Larry Pattis wrote:
>
> >The original B-band was indeed more prone to these problems, but the
> >problems were fairly easy to correct, if you know how
>
> >The NEW B-band element (distributed with the Core99) has about the same
> >tendancy as any other pick-up to have balance problems.
>
> Okay, Larry, fair enough - for the sake of gentlemanly discussion, I'll accept
> that.
No Wade, not for the sake of "gentlemanly discussion", but for the sake of
the truth. You may be able to pontificate and sweet talk your way with
other folks here, but not, I think, with me. You are generalizing about
things that need to be considered separately, if you want to take a truly
honest look at things. Based on our previous interactions, I have the
feeling that once your mind is made up about something, the facts (or
specific details) somehow seem to get lost. I'm calling you on not having
the facts, and then generalizing about something to bolster your own
position.
> I will point out that during the time the original B-Bands were exhibiting
> these problems, you were publicly denying that there were any problems at all,
> instead choosing to blame the "incompetence" of the repair techs and luthers
> who were having such difficulties installing them. My repairman, who has been
> in the business for over 30 years, called the B-Band the most difficult
> installation he has ever seen. And he is a high level thinker and mechanical
> problem solver of the higherst order.
Bullshit. And I quote from a post of MINE from over a year ago (6-25-98,
to be precise):
"I have had to shim *under* the B-band. With balance problems on the
Matrix, one of the fixes
was to wrap the quiet area once or twice with aluminum foil (sort of like
the beer can fix in Zen
and the Art of Motorcycle Maint.). This did not prove to be enough with
the B-Band. I have used a
very hard plastic less than half the thickness of a credit card for shim
material. Hasn't affected the
acoustic response of any of my guitars."
In fact, I have never shied away from any pick-up having a balance problem,
I simply deal with it. All I have heard from you (over and over) is that
your very competent repairman friend with 30 years experience had a bad
problem. So what? I had a bad problem two days ago, as I mentioned with
my first post to this thread. I repeat, so what! Most of my installations
of the B-band, old system, new system, whatever, have not required more
than one or two thin shims, taking less than five to ten minutes of my
time. Are you questioning my honesty on this by pointing out that your
friend had a problem? Maybe I'm better at it than your friend, and maybe
not, but I'll bet the ranch that he hasn't done one tenth the number of
B-band installs that I have. I'm sure he's a hell of a repairman, but I
happen to believe that my experience outweighs his experience in this
particular situation. If you choose to believe otherwise, fine. My local
vintage shop (& Martin dealer) also has one of the best and most
experienced repairmen in the business, and he was working on a guitar that
I had installed a B-band in. When he got done with the work, something had
shifted, the balance was off, and he spent two whole hours fooling around
with the guitar, to no avail. I happened to stop by the store just then,
and took the guitar and made it right in less than five minutes. So what.
I'm no genius, but I knew what to do to fix the problem. So what.
>
> You continued:
>
> >When Wade says "they do, in fact, have a greater problem with getting
a>proper
> string balance than most of the other brands out there" I have a>problem with
> this, since he is NOT making a distinction between the the>original, and the
> new, current>B-band.
>
>
> Once again, Larry, fair enough.
>
> The B-Band you sold Mark Kuwada a year ago for his son's D-35 has gone south,
> exhibiting (yes) severe string balance problems. This is after being
extremely
> difficult to get balanced in the first place. Once it was working, it worked
> pretty well for about eight months, then started gradually deteriorating - at
> least that's how I understand it.
I suppose that you've never had any gear malfunction on you, and you point
this out because it is so unusual? EMF also has had a well documented
problem with their supplier of endpins, and are finally switching (no pun)
to Switchcraft. These things happen. Some folks around here like to blow
things a bit out of proportion, and since I am not shy about taking these
things on in a straightforward fashion, perhaps it seems that the B-band
product has more than it's share of problems. Not so. Period. McMeen and
I just played 5 weeks of concerts on the East Coast, and neither of our
guitars had any sort of problem at all, B-band-wise. We were complimented
regularly on our sound , and both of our guitars have the OLD system in
there. They were installed over a year ago, and no problems. Reviews were
posted here that directly complimented our plugged in sound, don't make me
search through Deja News to find them. I'm sorry Mark has had a problem
with his unit, but I know that this will be resolved.
>
> The gentlemen in Finland are graciously sending out a new one, which,
> presumably, will be the new model of which you speak. This will give us the
> opportunity to examine both in an A-B comparison. Hopefully, though, the
> problems will cease.
Gracious, yes. And good business people, too. As was pointed out by
George Reiswig (and others here), they are very responsive to commentary
from users. The product was modified successfully to deal with a real
problem, and people are still talking about the past.
> If the new B-Band is as good as you claim it is, I will be happy to say so.
Great, I'll be waiting.
You know, the funniest fucking thing about all this is that for some reason
there may be a (mis-)perception among some folks that I get something out
of all this. I buy my EMF gear for installations just like every other
retailer out there (which incidentally, I am no longer doing, since I don't
have the time...trying to focus on guitar and the business of booking when
I'm not wasting my time here). True, I got a couple of free units early on
for my guitars, but that was BEFORE *any* of this hullabaloo started. I
was just a beta-tester for them, and they were thanking me for that.
The B-band is the best sound for me. I have not had the kind of problems
that Wade's repair-friend has had. I'm sorry he has had problems. If I
liked the sound of the Baggs or Highlander or Fishman the best, I would use
them, and recommend them, and I wouldn't get anything from any of those
companies, either. And their products are not perfect either, as past
retailer of all this gear, I can assure you of that.
Well folks, here we are again.
Larry Pattis
Hojo2X
(a fairly indignant response to my continued reservations about the B-Band
pickups snipped.)
Fine, Larry. I'm not as endlessly fascinated with the subject as you are,
anyway, so I'm not about to track down all the posts you wrote on the subject.
All I can say is that the impression I have received from you, both on your
public posts and in private e-mails, has followed an arc something like this:
"There's not a problem!"
"There's not a problem!"
"There's not a problem!"
"Okay, there's a bit of a problem, but there's not a problem if you just do
this..."
"Okay, there WAS a bit of a problem, but it's all solved now, so there's not a
problem! If anyone claims there IS a problem, they're just talking about old
stuff, so they don't know what they're talking about!"
"There's not a problem!"
"There's not a problem!"
"There's not a problem!"
But, truthfully, Larry, I don't read your posts all that closely, so I may have
received an entirely erroneous impression.
My apologies if that's the case.
In any event, I'm done with the discussion, so please feel free to have the
(presumably scathing) last word.
Wade Hampton Miller
Larry Pattis
(Hojo2X) wrote:
Poor Wade. Do you feel scathed?
Your "characterizations" (since you apparently don't read things closely)
are awfully scathing (and inaccurate...to serve your needs). I actually
took the time to go to Deja News to retrieve some of the truth from a year
ago. Your "cute" commentary above only makes me snicker at your behavior.
But you don't like it when you are "called" on *your* inaccuracies, now, do
you? Your "impressions" are pretty meaningless to me, since the above
attack on me, however craftily presented, is again misrepresenting
something that I call "the truth."
Naw, you can have the last word here.
Bob Dorgan
>
> In article <19990702181243...@ng-bg1.aol.com>, hoj...@aol.com
> (Hojo2X) wrote:
>
> > Larry Pattis wrote:
> >
>
> Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
>
> Liberal Palette Records
> http://liberalpalette.com
> "Music Without Borders"
can I have the last word?
Peace.
Bob Dorgan
Larry Pattis
> Harold,,
>
> You're right - there is a pre-drilled hole in the Taylor saddle. I checked
> it out, and it was there. It looks like it was drilled at a 90 degree angle
> whereas the B-band instructions say to drill at a 30-45 degree angle. That
> might make my decision about which pickup to use a little easier to make.
> I'm sure glad I learned about the hole before I purchased a pickup that
> required a different angle. (Taylor endorses Fishman and Baggs, for what
> that's worth.)
>
> According to the Baggs web site, they recommend using a bridge made out
> Micarta or Corian because a bone bridge might not be flexible enough to
> enable the pickup to sense the vibrations (or is it pressure?) from the top.
> I checked my bridge and it looks like some kind of synthetic material with
> the words "Graph Tech" stamped on it. The Taylor specs say that it is made
> of tusq. Do you think my current bridge would be okay to use with the Baggs
> Dual Source?
>
> BTW, what do you use to shave the bridge? With previous guitars, I've just
> used a fine grade of sand paper.
>
> Thanks for all your great advice.
>
> Dan
Dan,
The Baggs (like the B-band) also requires a 30-45 degree hole, so make sure
you know what you are getting into there.
FYI you are mixing up terminology a bit, by calling the saddle a bridge,
and the bridge a saddle! You drill through the bridge, saddles are made of
bone, micarta, etc.
DReke
You're right - there is a pre-drilled hole in the Taylor saddle. I checked
it out, and it was there. It looks like it was drilled at a 90 degree angle
whereas the B-band instructions say to drill at a 30-45 degree angle. That
might make my decision about which pickup to use a little easier to make.
I'm sure glad I learned about the hole before I purchased a pickup that
required a different angle. (Taylor endorses Fishman and Baggs, for what
that's worth.)
According to the Baggs web site, they recommend using a bridge made out
Micarta or Corian because a bone bridge might not be flexible enough to
enable the pickup to sense the vibrations (or is it pressure?) from the top.
I checked my bridge and it looks like some kind of synthetic material with
the words "Graph Tech" stamped on it. The Taylor specs say that it is made
of tusq. Do you think my current bridge would be okay to use with the Baggs
Dual Source?
BTW, what do you use to shave the bridge? With previous guitars, I've just
used a fine grade of sand paper.
Thanks for all your great advice.
Dan
hed...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7licm8$apd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>About saddle height. The B-band is sufficiently thin that no adjustment
>is recquired. Is that your experience? The Baggs RT is supposed to be
>.048" thick, but it seems to compress a little so if I were doing it
>again (actually, I did) I would probably shave only about .040 off the
>bottom of the saddle.
>
George Reiswig
90-degree hole (straight down) was probably put there to accommodate a
Fishman-type piezo pickup, which has a wire perpendicular to the transducer.
That said, you can always put the 45-degree hole on the *other* end of the
slot!
GR
Larry Pattis wrote in message ...
>In article <7ljejb$1o0$1...@cletus.bright.net>, "DReke" <dr...@bright.net>
wrote:
>
Larry Pattis
<george....@intel.com> wrote:
> I agree with Larry here...the Ribbon does ask for a 45 degree hole. The
> 90-degree hole (straight down) was probably put there to accommodate a
> Fishman-type piezo pickup, which has a wire perpendicular to the transducer.
>
> That said, you can always put the 45-degree hole on the *other* end of the
> slot!
>
> GR
>
Doh. (= thanks George!)
Or you can actually go in with a drill (carefully!), or with a small, round
hand-held file and re-work the existing hole. Bridges and bridge plates
can easily handle this, if you know what you are doing.
George Reiswig
keys to drilling these holes is to AVOID DRILLING THROUGH BRACES! That's a
BAD thing to do.
If you don't feel confident with that part of it, take it to a competent
luthier and they can do it for you, even if it is (as Larry says) just
re-routing an existing hole.
Then you can experience the transcendent joy that is installing your very
own pickup yourself...and can let us know how much of a balance problem you
had to deal with, so that we have some more REAL, OBJECTIVE data points to
work from.
Again, if you do end up with balance problems on a B-Band, I'd be happy to
try to help you fix 'em.
Happy Independence Day, everyone...enough fireworks surrounding the B-Band
for now, eh?
GR
Larry Pattis wrote in message ...
shrimer
Trance REWLS!!
Fred
Bob Dorgan wrote:
>
> Larry Pattis wrote:
> >
> > In article <19990702181243...@ng-bg1.aol.com>, hoj...@aol.com
> > (Hojo2X) wrote:
> >
> > > Larry Pattis wrote:
> > >
> > Larry Pattis
> >
> > Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
> >
> > Liberal Palette Records
> > http://liberalpalette.com
> > "Music Without Borders"
John Phillips
but I think both of you should take into consideration that it's
possible for both sides of the arguement to be one-sided and false. Two
arguements, which I might add, are filled with very good points from
either perspective. Just because you happen to be proffesional
musicians doesn't exclude you from the list of people who are NOT
perfect. I know for a fact that Wade is a very nice guy and helps me
out very much whenever I need advice on something. I've never
corresponded with Larry, but I'm sure he's just as nice a guy. Just
look at the topic and make sure you answered the guy's question.
Thanks.
John
DReke
Dan), I felt around to see how close the braces are for a 45-degree-angle
hole. They seemed awfully close. I think it's probably better for me to let
a luthier do the drilling and installation instead of me doing that at the
risk screwing up the one Taylor I'll probably be able to buy in my lifetime.
Thanks again for your advice,
Dan
Larry Pattis wrote in message ...
Nelson Foster
your guitar aren't symmetrical - there's lots of room to miss the brace on
the treble side (which I believe is the way B-Band suggests in their
installation booklet). I just pulled the saddle off my 514C and looked -
it's probably the same. There doesn't seem to be enough room to miss the
brace on the left (bass) side. Ignore that pre-drilled starter hole. But if
you are nervous about this at all - go ahead and find a good tech.
Nelson
DReke <dr...@bright.net> wrote in message
news:7ljplh$455$1...@cletus.bright.net...
: While looking for the hole in the....bridge (let's get it right this time
:
:
JD BLACKWELL
whom are top drawer guitarists themselves, you cant give a B-Band away,
Dusty Strings wont carry them and no competent luthier will waste his time
or your money on installing them. Thats enough to make me wonder what
inducement could make someone endorse them so heartily. Sorry fans, the
emperor is buck....ass.....nekkid.
JD
Hojo2X wrote in message <19990702181243...@ng-bg1.aol.com>...
Nelson Foster
the hole is indeed supposed to be drilled on the bass side - sorry if this
confused anyone following this thread -
But I also noticed that the angle to be drilled is mentioned as 45 to 60
degrees (and not the 30 -45 figure which refers to angle of string break
over the saddle) so there might be enough room -
Nelson
Larry Pattis <ab...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:abuse-ya02408000...@news.xmission.com...
Dick Schneiders
>inducement could make someone endorse them so heartily. Sorry fans, the
>emperor is buck....ass.....nekkid.
>
>JD
Maybe someone put a gun to their head.
Or, just maybe, they like them better than all of the other systems out there.
I have heard several guitars with B-bands in them and they do sound better than
any other system I have ever heard. I will not put them into any of my
guitars, because I have too many that I like to play on a regular basis and
cannot afford to install that many of them. Also, when I play gigs, I use one
of my archtops for most of the songs we do, so it is a moot point. However, if
I was playing a flattop in a solo gig on a regular basis, I would go with a
B-band, if I could pin down which guitar to use.
There appear to be a lot of emperors out there.
I would speculate that the wonderful luthiers in Seattle simply have found
systems that they are satisfied with and don't like changes.
Dick Schneiders
Larry Pattis
dicks...@aol.com (Dick Schneiders) wrote:
Yes, and no one wanted to carry Elixirs at the beginning, either, VERY
experienced (=stubborn, narrow-minded, tradition-bound?) shop owners
scoffed at the idea. Let's see now, the list of OEM users now includes
Tacoma, Larrivée, Taylor, Webber, Goodall, Alvarez-Yairi....who else?
Larry "fully clothed, but no emperor" Pattis
JD BLACKWELL
Dick Schneiders wrote in message
<19990703084514...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>>Thats enough to make me wonder what
>>inducement could make someone endorse them so heartily. Sorry fans, the
>>emperor is buck....ass.....nekkid.
>>
>>JD
>
>Maybe someone put a gun to their head.
>
>I was playing a flattop in a solo gig on a regular basis, I would go with a
>B-band, if I could pin down which guitar to use.
If the pickup is *that* good the choice should be easy.
>
>There appear to be a lot of emperors out there.
Nothin'`wrong with being nekkid either.......if you cop to it.
>
>I would speculate that the wonderful luthiers in Seattle simply have found
>systems that they are satisfied with and don't like changes.
In my considerable travels I've found Seattle and the PacNW to be one of the
most acoustically sophisticated areas in terms of clientele and the depth
and breadth of luthiers here. That just about anything but Trance and B-band
can be found suggests that we aren't suffering from lockstep resistance to
change rather that there are an awful lot of finely tuned bullshit detectors
around here.
JD
JD BLACKWELL
Larry Pattis wrote in message ...
>> >Thats enough to make me wonder what
>> >inducement could make someone endorse them so heartily. Sorry fans, the
>> >emperor is buck....ass.....nekkid.
>> >
>> >JD
>
>Yes, and no one wanted to carry Elixirs at the beginning, either, VERY
>experienced (=stubborn, narrow-minded, tradition-bound?) shop owners
>scoffed at the idea. Let's see now, the list of OEM users now includes
>Tacoma, Larrivée, Taylor, Webber, Goodall, Alvarez-Yairi....who else?
>
>Larry "fully clothed, but no emperor" Pattis
To fully use your Elixir analogy, one has to understand that a lot of those
shop owners got Elixirs crammed down their throat by customers like me who
in essence told them "I'm shopping where I can get the strings I want" . No
such phenomena has occurred here with B-band despite your exhortations.
JD
xyzj...@primary.net
pickup, and that they are, indeed, harder to balance than other saddle pickups. 'Course,
being the backwater that this area is, it'll be a while before the new, improved B-Bands
show up.
Folks around here also noticed that Elixir strings seem to have more breakage than other
brands on the D and G strings, but that must be some regional anomaly.
Jeffrey L. Suits
Born to tinker
Larry Pattis
<oneey...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Just wait.
You are right about what happened with Elixir in the stores, but your
Elixir/B-band analogy doesn't hold (IMO, for this short term that we are
now experienceing as EMF starts out) because EMF doesn't have the re$ource$
that Elixir had to get the word out (advertising & sponsoring acoustic
oriented festivals), nor are pick-ups such a common every-day purchase as
with strings. If EMF can hold on (of which I have no doubt) for the long
term, more and more folks will begin to discover the benefits. The two
main shops that do after-market electronics installs in acoustics here in
SLC are sold on B-Band, and it sure has nothing to do with anything I said
to them. They used their ears, did a few installations themselves, and now
it's their top recommend when folks ask.
I hadn't been to EMF's web site lately (until yesterday), but some pretty
top flight players (like Tim Sparks <Winfield winner> and Jamie Findlay...I
was amazed when I saw Jamie play at the L.A. NAMM) are using the B-band,
and I suppose that you would surmise that they do so for reasons other than
"great plugged in sound"? Touring and recording professionals making a
decision to use equipment from a start-up company, with no past history,
and you imply that their bullshit detectors aren't as good as those honed
in the Pacific Northwest? Too large a generalization, IMO, and no
substance at all. How about the guys from the California Guitar Trio
(studied with Robert Fripp), that all happen to play custom Ervin Somogyi
guitars (one of my top 3 favorite builders, BTW)? Yes, these top players
have been fooled into thinking that their guitars sound better with the
B-band, and some sort of mind control has been exerted over them? Come on,
JD, we know that Wade doesn't like them, and we now know that you don't
like them, but continually putting down the product and the folks that do
use them doesn't do you, me, or the other folks out there any good,
regardless of how many shops you know in your area that don't carry B-band.
I might smirk a bit behind the back of folks, when I hear their piezo
transducer quacking all over the place, but I don't tell them the sorts of
things that you are saying. I simply have my choice, this is a newsgroup,
and folks are asking for opinions and *experience.* I'm happy to share my
opinion when asked (and stated as an opinion), and when my experience is
relevant. I have had, at one time the other, every major brand of pick-up
installed in one of my personal guitars, including Highlander, Baggs,
Fishman, etc. for the sole purpose of HOPING that this would be THE answer
for me, tonally. Don't you think it would be quite a bit easier on my
psyche and spirit if I said that I loved the Baggs product the best? Then
Wade and I would be best friends, and he wouldn't use his pontificating
ways to subtley and insidiously abuse me. If you want to question the
value of this product in a way that challenges MY direct hands-on
experience, well, then you will get a logical, fact-filled response from
me. I won't snip your post to edit things that don't fit my reply, and I
will make my points. I am not a sweet talkin' southerner, but I will get
my point across. For every shop you come up with that has actually had
experience with this product and doesn't like it, I'll bet that I can come
up with two shops that like B-band and recommend it to folks (and that, my
friends, is pure conjecture, but people are using the B-band all over the
country now, where they have had the chance to be exposed to it in a
positive light). And the list of pros using B-band is growing. Think back
to the early days of Fishman, when Barcus-Berry and Frap had the market by
the tail. Larry Fishman (nice first name, eh?) probably had all the same
problems as a start-up company that EMF is now dealing with. And in that
sense alone, with all the nay-sayers out there, I think that my analogy
with Elixir does hold water.
Just wait.
Larry Pattis
Robert L. Abramowitz
LARRY AND WADE, BOTH LISTEN UP!!
What brand of detergent do you think gets clothes the cleanest?
I like Tide myself.
Bob A.
Larry Pattis
<abram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Ok, now let's get really personal. Ready?
>
> LARRY AND WADE, BOTH LISTEN UP!!
>
> What brand of detergent do you think gets clothes the cleanest?
> I like Tide myself.
>
> Bob A.
Here at the Pattis household we prefer the "no perfume or scents added"
version of Arm & Hammer.
JD BLACKWELL
Larry Pattis wrote in message ...
><abram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> LARRY AND WADE, BOTH LISTEN UP!!
>>
>> What brand of detergent do you think gets clothes the cleanest?
>> I like Tide myself.
>>
>> Bob A.
>
>
>version of Arm & Hammer.
>
>Larry Pattis
>
JD
Bob Dorgan
>
> >Thats enough to make me wonder what
> >inducement could make someone endorse them so heartily. Sorry fans, the
> >emperor is buck....ass.....nekkid.
> >
> >JD
>
>
> I have heard several guitars with B-bands in them and they do sound better than
> any other system I have ever heard. I will not put them into any of my
> guitars, because I have too many that I like to play on a regular basis and
> cannot afford to install that many of them. Also, when I play gigs, I use one
> I was playing a flattop in a solo gig on a regular basis, I would go with a
> B-band, if I could pin down which guitar to use.
>
>
> systems that they are satisfied with and don't like changes.
>
Hi Dick,
Hell of a nice way to say- "you're full of shit JD."
A lot nicer way than I would have used.
Both you and JD are right: The emporer is naked. But just who is the
emporer?
Bob ( fully clothed and you should be happy I am) Dorgan
DReke
;-)
After reading all of the messages about which pickup is the best and who's
the smelliest skunk for recommending the other ones, I'm sure glad I live in
a country where the available products are determined by a market economy
instead of some bureaucrat based on his opinion. Aren't you? So let's all
just get out those Martins, Taylors, Alvarez, Seagulls, small-shop-crafted
and other guitars with whatever brand of pickup you have (or don't) and make
some patriotic music.
(BTW - This has absolutely no hidden political or ideological meaning - I'm
just glad to live in America on this 4th of July weekend.)
Dan (just trying to learn as much about guitars as I can) Reke
Bob Dorgan
>
> Rolling Stones version: Hey you get off of my cloud!
> Scottish version: Hey MacLeod, get off of my ewe!
>
> We need to lighten up this group a bit don'tchathink?
>
> Bob Alman
>
Bob,
I wish you ( and everyone else here) knew the scope of how dirty this
little war was.
I wish I didn't know.
Bob Dorgan
Bob Alman
Scottish version: Hey MacLeod, get off of my ewe!
We need to lighten up this group a bit don'tchathink?
Bob Alman
RMMGA CD -> http://www.sonic.net/gus/rmmga/RMMGACDI.htm
Healdsburg GT -> http://www.sonic.net/gus/rmmga/NorCal_GT.htm
hedberg
>Bob Alman wrote:
>>
>> Rolling Stones version: Hey you get off of my cloud!
>> Scottish version: Hey MacLeod, get off of my ewe!
>>
>> We need to lighten up this group a bit don'tchathink?
>>
>> Bob Alman
>>
>Bob,
>I wish you ( and everyone else here) knew the scope of how dirty this
>little war was.
>I wish I didn't know.
>Bob Dorgan
Bob
My sister is a shrink in Red Hook, NY. I'm going to send her this
thread and see what she thinks.
Oh, my.
Harold
DReke
topic for her. Something like: Jungian Analysis of Brand Loyalty and
Intragroup Dynamics of Subjects With Common Hobbies.
hedberg wrote in message <377ea318...@news.hal-pc.org>...
Lon Smith
I started reading it I have found Wade's posts to be intelligent informative
and apparently honest. I noticed when he posted his "opinion" of John
Pearse strings he made sure to state in the post that he is an artist
endorser. When he first disagreed with you Larry, it seems like a Harley
rider addressing Japanese (just a side note it wasn't until my spell check
that I almost used the wrong term for these motorcycles FHEW) bikes. So he
seems to dislike the b band enough to wonder if you were a paid endorser.
You know how mean those Harley riders can be. A lot of what has come down
since seems to me to be an attack or a question on your integrity. I must
say that after reading this thread I believe you , Larry, are not an
endorser just like you said. I don't have a clue whether you or Wade are
full of shit regarding the B-Band, because I haven't heard it or installed
it, but I just wanted to finally weigh in on this thread to try to make some
sense of what has gone on. Larry, I think that the information about the
B-Band pros and cons which are addressed in this thread are very good
reading. I wish that the thread had been just the professional arguments
not the attack on your integrity, so maybe it would be good to start a new
thread about the pros and cons of the B-Band without the history of this
one. I for one am interested in the real information that has been provided
here.
--
remove no garbage from address when replying.
misc...@juno.com
jeez, i wander about elsewhere for a day or two and find things somewhat
in disorder upon my return.
first, an answer about taylors and saddles, and then a bit of musing...
i just sold a taylor 420pf with a baggs ribbon transducer. the stock
saddle is made of a material called tusq, manufactured by graphtech
(just making sure that there's no confusion here, as imprecise language
doesn't seem to be aiding us toward our goal of greater understanding,
technical *or* personal). like corian and micarta, tusq is a synthetic
material designed to mimic bone's weight and rigidity while addressing
bone's sometimes inconsistent density. given the similarity in function
(if not in execution, since there are some esoteric/tonal differences
between the materials), i wouldn't think there to be anything to worry
about. however, i don't think, i know. the baggs rt (done right, as
we're all well aware is essential) sounds *great* in combination with
the tusq saddle and taylor design. as for their comments regarding
bone... i haven't had a bone saddle per se, but i did carve one from
fossilized ivory, and following a bit of tweaking, had a fine sound on
my hands, and a bit more robust than with the stock saddle. the baggs
worked well with the ivory saddle, just as with the synthetic. in fact,
i could hear something of the difference between the two materials in
the amplified sound. in both cases, i had great, positive contact
between the saddle and pickup, and consequently, a strong tone.
so... it's great that you're being careful about materials and making
every effort to achieve a fine amplified sound. i think you can rest
easy about this particular aspect of the process. the baggs will work
*very* well with the stock saddle on your taylor.
which brings me to the following: has anyone else noticed that taylor
refers to the amplified sound of the baggs as more "brittle" than that
of the fishman? i can't remember whether this is at the website or in
their printed material, but c'mon... if "brittle" means "less like
plastic", then maybe so, but i'd have to take exception otherwise.
i'm a little ways off from putting the electronics in my new instrument,
but i'm considering (leaning toward?) the b-band, if only for the sake
of experience. i've had a couple of baggs systems and love them. what
has me rather curious is the jack emf is using that will allow an
additional input. i know most folks are using this for an internal mic,
but i'd be inclined (indeed, i *am* inclined, though not fiscally able)
to use it in conjunction with a fishman rare earth pickup. the
highlander is the only other system that i'm aware of that would allow
this. baggs, to my knowledge, doesn't yet manufacture a product along
these lines, though i suppose you might be able to *remove* the mic from
the double barrel... still, i don't want to be paying for product when
i have no intention of using it. experience, suggestions, and/or good,
old-fashioned belligerence would be welcome here.
as for the contentiousness earlier in the thread, here's my spare
change: *if* emf has addressed the apparent balance problem (and i'll
go ahead and state my confidence that they have. by all indications,
the company is as responsive and proactive in these matters as any),
then the base product (pickup and preamp, no mic) represents an
incredible value at $80-90 retail. the highlander is certainly more
expensive, and while i've heard that the baggs has become more
affordable of late (i think i payed around $130 or so for the rt plus
from elderly several years ago), i don't know that they've covered that
entire distance. emf appears to have taken the opposite approach of
trance, by making price/value a fundamental consideration and offering a
*very* attractive product. and i applaud that. present differences of
opinion and/or religion (so intense is the fervor) laid aside for a
moment, the b-band has garnered enough thoroughly positive attention for
me to consider it, despite my longstanding and stated preference for the
baggs product. otherwise it's like the center of the tootsie roll pop:
the world will never know...
michael "gimme one'dem dean markley thangs" schultz
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Bob Dorgan
>
> On Sat, 03 Jul 1999 21:50:58 GMT, Bob Dorgan <d77...@epix.net> wrote:
>
> >Bob Alman wrote:
> >>
> >> Rolling Stones version: Hey you get off of my cloud!
> >> Scottish version: Hey MacLeod, get off of my ewe!
> >>
> >> We need to lighten up this group a bit don'tchathink?
> >>
> >> Bob Alman
> >>
> >Bob,
> >I wish you ( and everyone else here) knew the scope of how dirty this
> >little war was.
> >I wish I didn't know.
> >Bob Dorgan
> Bob
>
> My sister is a shrink in Red Hook, NY. I'm going to send her this
> thread and see what she thinks.
>
> Oh, my.
>
> Harold
Dorgan
Larry Pattis
<swampedn...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Lon,
Since you are new here, I will reiterate my relationship with EMF. I *do*
consider myself an *endorsing artsist* for EMF via the B-band and their
internal mic, because as I said in one of the recent posts, I have gotten a
couple three pieces of free gear from them for services performed. And in
a larger sense, since I use their equipment on-stage, well that surely
constitutes an endorsement on my part of their products.
This "endorsement" thing is tricky, because some folks really figure that
an endorsement (even in our little end of the acoustic guitar world) means
that one has sold their soul to the devil for some sort of benefit to
themselves. Other folks do realize that by and large, at this level of the
business, gear is used because it works best for the performer in question.
Most of us in this end (and level) of the business fall into the latter
category. I noticed just now that in another thread Wade recommends the
Pearse armrest (as he has many times before), and lest he come under fire,
clearly states two things (as you have noticed); 1) that he is an official
endorser of Pearse products, AND 2) that he has used these sorts of
products from John for 10 years, *before* having any official relationship.
I believe that he really likes this product, and therefore wants to turn
other folks on to something that works for him. I too find gear that works
the best for me, and then use it and recommend it!
I am constantly making disclaimers all the time about my relationship with
both Elixir Guitar Strings and with EMF Acoustics, lest there be any
misunderstanding.
And I also wish that the pros and cons could be the sole discussion, but
that, unfortunately is not the world we live in....even on the relatively
civil group that rmmga has become. Egos get involved, information is
"mis-remembered" and misrepresented from the past, and folks do tend to
have "agendas," unfortunately. One of the prices we pay for free speech.
hedberg
>Is your sister a Ph.D.? If not, this thread might make a good dissertation
>topic for her. Something like: Jungian Analysis of Brand Loyalty and
>Intragroup Dynamics of Subjects With Common Hobbies.
>
>
>hedberg wrote in message <377ea318...@news.hal-pc.org>...
>>On Sat, 03 Jul 1999 21:50:58 GMT, Bob Dorgan <d77...@epix.net> wrote:
. . .
>>My sister is a shrink in Red Hook, NY. I'm going to send her this
>>thread and see what she thinks.
>>
Actually, my sister is a medical doctor psychiatrist. That's sort of
funny 'cause everyone else in my family is either a nut case or a
junkie of some sort (some of us are both).
Two things she has talked to me about brought her to mind when I was
reading this thread. One , she says that crazy is doing the same
thing over and over again expecting different results. The other
thing is the need that people have, from time to time, to engage in
behavior that is antithetical to their objectives. We all have, for
example, standards that we set for ourselves -- visions of the sort of
people that we desire to be -- and yet we willfully engage in behavior
which is in direct conflict with how we perceive ourselves and how we
want others to perceive us. Behavior that is almost guaranteed to
prevent us from getting what we want.
My sister is a very sharp person and I love her dearly which explains
why we haven't been speaking to each other for several years.
Harold
Greg N. <Greg N.
"JD BLACKWELL" <oneey...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> In my considerable travels I've found Seattle and the PacNW to be
> one of the most acoustically sophisticated areas in terms of
> clientele and the depth and breadth of luthiers here.
I'm not goint to take sides here, but:
JD, you are not seriously suggesting, that your viewpoint must have
extra merits because you live in the land of the "acoustically
sophisticated", where people are somehow (genetically? culturally?
intellectually?) superior to the rest of the world, are you?
--
Greg N.
http://www.neatone.com
Charles & Joan Park
world chess competition.
Charles(so I'm over-dramatic)Park
Bob Dorgan
There ain't gonna be no next move.
I'm scrapping all the pick-ups and mics and all that shit.
If I have to plug in from now on, I'm just gonna pick harder.
Who makes the best pick?
Bob (only trying to help) Dorgan
JD BLACKWELL
Bob Dorgan wrote in message <37821B...@epix.net>...
The buttrock shred wankers seem to prefer quarters
JD
Charles & Joan Park
JD BLACKWELL wrote on Bob Dorgans request of best pick.
> The buttrock shred wankers seem to prefer quarters
>
> JD
Thanks JD, now we have another dilemma, heads or tails?
CP
Hojo2X
>> The buttrock shred wankers seem to prefer quarters
Charles Park wrote:
>Thanks JD, now we have another dilemma, heads or tails?
It gets even more involved than that, Charles. You get the best sound from
PRE-WAR quarters.
I prefer quarters from the Denver Mint - they get that high, lonesome mountain
sound. The ones minted in 1939 and 1940 are best, and command the highest
price on the vintage market.
At least that's what I read in one of George Gruhn's articles.....
Wade Hampton "Vintage Guy" Miller
Chuck Murphy
where the endpin was and 1/8" hole at a 45 degree angle at the bass side of
the saddle slot. I checked to make sure I was not hitting any braces. To add
the mic would not have been any extra effort in that everything on the
B-Band plugs in to the Core Pre-Amp. The only thing that slowed me down was
trying to get the end pin jack through the hole I had drilled (my arm
wouldn't fit that far in). Eventually, I just put a Phillips screwdriver
through the hole I had drilled, from the outside. Inside the guitar, I slid
the jack/pre-amp over the end of the screwdriver and guided it into place. I
used a very small screwdriver (the kind used to tighten eyeglass screws)
through the hole on the outside of the pre-amp jack to hold it in place
while tightening the outside nut. This keeps the Core Pre-Amp from turning
and twisting wires inside the guitar.
--
Chuck Murphy
Richmond, RI
DReke <dr...@bright.net> wrote in message
news:7lgvjn$ee5$1...@cletus.bright.net...
| I am thinking about installing either the L.R. Baggs Dual Source System or
| the B-band pickup/mic combination in my Taylor 714. Unfortunately I have
not
| found any luthiers in my area who have installed either. (In fact, they
| weren't even familiar with the B-band.) So I'm thinking about just doing
the
| installation myself.
|
| Is that a good or a bad idea? Have any of you installed either of those
| yourself? How difficult would that be?
|
| BTW - this is a great newsgroup. It seems like just about everyone wants
to
| help folks, and I greatly appreciate the good advice I've gotten.
|
| Dan R.
|
|
|
Chuck Murphy
problems at all.
--
Chuck Murphy
Richmond, RI
Larry Pattis <ab...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:abuse-ya02408000...@news.xmission.com...
| In article <19990702023259...@ng-bg1.aol.com>, hoj...@aol.com
| (Hojo2X) wrote:
|
| > Well, Lance may have said it a bit harshly, but his opinion concurs with
what
| > I've heard from other builders and guitar repair techs:
| > regardless of whether one likes the tone of the B-Bands, they do, in
| fact, have
| > a greater problem with getting a proper string balance than most of the
other
| > brands out there. Trying to diminish the significance of the problem by
| > claiming it is spread out evenly with other brands is just not accurate.
| >
| >
| > Wade Hampton Miller
|
|
| I am not going to respond at all to Lance's angry post, but I will point
| out a few things via Wade's calm, but not fully accurate post.
|
| This has ALL been said (by me) before.
|
| All saddle elements have a tendancy to string balance problems.
|
| The original B-band was indeed more prone to these problems, but the
| problems were fairly easy to correct, if you know how (NOT rocket science,
| simple applications of pressure via paper shims, a common luthier trick).
|
| The NEW B-band element (distributed with the Core99) has about the same
| tendancy as any other pick-up to have balance problems. No more, no
less.
| If any one cares to dispute me on this, well, they had better have
| installed (themselves) about two dozen of them, because I already have.
|
| As I said, ALL of these things have been presented by me before on rmmga.
| If anyone NOW does not make some distinction between the original gear
| (which again, was not too hard to deal with) and the new gear (which is
| extremely easy to deal with) from EMF, well, they are possibly (I said
| possibly) guilty of having an agenda (just like folks think *I* have).
|
| When Wade says "they do, in fact, have a greater problem with getting a
| proper string balance than most of the other brands out there" I have a
| problem with this, since he is NOT making a distinction between the the
| original, and the new, current B-band.
|
| I am NOT trying diminish any problems, as it is a well known fact (by any
| reputable and honest repair person) that ALL saddle elements ARE prone
| to this problem. I dispute your comment Wade, in that the builders and
| guitar techs that *I* know do not think the B-band is much of a problem
| (certainly not as big as is being made out here), and that includes the
| original gear.
|
| Are we in the middle of another B-band debate?
|
| Why?
|
| Any original condition B-bands that Lance has, I'd be more than happy to
| buy for $5 a piece. Send 'em on over.
|
| Larry "my agenda is the truth about things" Pattis
Nelson Foster
half - most of the time was spent getting up enough courage to drill the
holes into the saddle - that brace thing can be a bit of a tense moment.
I'm surprised (and happy for you) that you didn't have balance problems -
must have been a good fit between the saddle and the bridge.- I've been
trying to get a Taylor balanced for a week now - What kind of guitar did you
install yours in?
Nelson
Chuck Murphy <crmu...@ids.net> wrote in message
news:Id6j3.2808$8c3.1...@typ41.nn.bcandid.com...
: I've only installed one (the *new* '99 Core Pre-Amp) B-Band...no balance
:
:
John Zyla
There's been some talk about methods of balancing B-Bands. Here's a
slightly edited version of a descriptive email I sent to L. Pattis on
my method. This is not sanctioned by EMF in any way, and I have no
connection with EMF outside of the fact that I use B-Bands and love
them. In fact, the folks at EMF think the public might think putting
clay into a guitar is weird, so - remember this is John Zyla speaking
- not EMF ..... Anyway, it works extremely well in my limited
experience using this method - perfect balance the first time on
guitars that were giving me fits otherwise.
<< start text >>
You've installed a great number of B-Bands, I understand, so you might
appreciate this. I love the B-Band, but I don't like balancing any
pickup using shims. It's too much of a hit or miss process.
Well, I got to thinking about the possible causes of balancing
problems, and it all boils down to, in one way or another, a failure
to completely and *evenly* transfer pressure from the top of the
saddle down through the "sandwich" structure of the pickup, to the
wood of the bottom of the saddle slot. From reading of other luthier's
experiences, it seems that just making sure your saddle is flat on the
bottom, and the slot is flat, doesn't always guarantee a trouble-free
balancing especially with the B-Band, because it's stiffness tends to
exaggerate the effect any (even miniscule) sloping of the saddle or
slot routing.
So, the task at hand was to devise a method by which one could ensure
a pretty much consistent transferance of pressure, without having to
go through the trial and error exercise of shimming. Shimming is fine,
it's just not an efficient use of the luthiers time, because results
aren't predictable.
I got to thinking about how fine target rifle barrels are "bedded" to
the stocks using fiberglass and other compounds, and this lead me to
consider using bedding in this application. Actually, I considered
this very early on, just had not decided on a bedding material.
I do a bit of ceramics work as a hobby, and am quite familiar with the
properties of various clays, and it hit me that this may be the
answer. The properties *I* wanted for a bedding material were:
1. The material must not be adhesive, except to itself - i.e. we do
*not* want to "glue" the sandwich together!
2. The material must conform to surfaces, but be hard - so that it
would *transparently* transfer pressure. A soft material would color
the sound. This would not be acceptable.
3. The material must have a fine grain structure so that it can be
used in a very thin layer so saddle height is not affected
appreciably. It's important to note here that the only function the
material must perform is to ensure even pressure transfer, so a thin
layer is all that is needed. Indeed, a *more than thin" layer would be
detrimental.
The material I decided to try is a self-hardening modeling clay. This
clay hardens without firing, is adhesive only to itself, and has a
very fine grain structure. Amoco "Mexican" or "Marblex" self hardening
clay is what I have used. This is available at art supply stores or
university book stores that have an art supplies section. It's
important to find a source that sells it once in a while, so you get a
reasonably fresh box. A 32 oz brick costs about $5.50 around here.
Enough to do about 30,000 saddles, or a few saddles and some neat
sculptures.
Here's the applcation method simplified. If you're interested and want
to try, I can go into more detail, let me know.
1. Lay down a very thin layer of bedding in the saddle slot, tamping
reasonably flat.
2. Install the pickup over the first layer.
3. Lay down another very thin layer on top of the pickup.
4. Install the saddle, and string the guitar, tuning to pitch.
5. The whole "sandwich" will cure in a day or so.
So there you have it.
<< end text >>
John Zyla
dunwell...@dorje.com
Zyla) writes:
<<<< Lots of good stuff snipped here >>>
>Here's the applcation method simplified. If you're interested and want
>to try, I can go into more detail, let me know.
>
>1. Lay down a very thin layer of bedding in the saddle slot, tamping
>reasonably flat.
>
>2. Install the pickup over the first layer.
>
>3. Lay down another very thin layer on top of the pickup.
>
>4. Install the saddle, and string the guitar, tuning to pitch.
>
>5. The whole "sandwich" will cure in a day or so.
>
>
>So there you have it.
>
>
><< end text >>
>
>John Zyla
>
John,
Good idea, I didn't realize that there were self-hardening clays, perfect!
Some more questions:
- Can you please be a bit more specific as to what a "ver thin layer" means in
aprox. inches or mm?
- Do you just make a small roll and then tamp it in place, or do you try to
flatten it ahead of time?
- Have you ever had the clay squish by the pickup and bond the upper and lower
layers together and if so, does it matter? How good is the non-adhesive nature
of this clay, is the pickup separable from the clay afterwards?
- What sort of total thickness do you end up with for the two layers and the
pickup, ie: how much do you need to route?
Thanks for the info,
Alan
John Zyla
Alan, I'll imbed some answers to your further questions below ….
>John,
>Good idea, I didn't realize that there were self-hardening clays, perfect!
>Some more questions:
>- Can you please be a bit more specific as to what a "ver thin layer" means in
>aprox. inches or mm?
As far as layer thickness, I haven't measured exactly, but it's just
really really thin -think as thin as you can make it and get a solid
layer (without holes). I'm estimating .25 mm or less. I actually leave
a bit of open space around the perimeter (think the "walls" of the
saddle slot) so that the stuff will squish out toward the walls as
saddle pressure is applied. This ensures that I end up with a thinner
layer than I could apply by hand.
>- Do you just make a small roll and then tamp it in place, or do you try to
>flatten it ahead of time?
I actually apply the clay with a Popsicle stick that I have trimmed a
bit on one angle to make it pointier. Dab up a bit of the clay on the
stick, then tamp into the slot. I tried the roll method and it seemed
that I could not make a small enough roll - important to realize the
layer is just as thin as you can possibly make it. I also use a
technique where I get some of the clay on the end of the stick, then
wipe it on the side of the slot - think of cleaning a peanut-butter
knife on the edge of the jar - same idea. Then I tamp down into the
slot.
>- Have you ever had the clay squish by the pickup and bond the upper and lower
>layers together and if so, does it matter?
Yes, in fact I consider it a good thing, but that's not a scientific
estimation - just a feeling.
>How good is the non-adhesive nature
>of this clay, is the pickup separable from the clay afterwards?
The clay when dried (hardened) can be broken easily in thin layers -
so it's extremely non-adhesive. I've removed B-Bands from slots
installed this way - just take the same Popsicle stick tool and
lightly scrape an edge of the layer off on the free end of the pickup,
then pull the pickup up and out. I use a dental probe to snag the end
of the B-Band (these are great tools - ask your dentist for a couple
of them - when they dull, the dentists throw them into a box in the
back room (cleaned) - mine gave me a handful of them). Any remaining
clay can be wiped off of the pickup between two dry fingers. A
slightly damp paper towel is just effective too. One can clean the
stuff out of the saddle slot with a dry toothbrush - the wood is
porous so wiping only may leave a few tiny bits in there - hence the
need for the soft toothbrush. . . Very non-adhesive as I say. There
is zero permanent adhesion to anything of a smooth nature such as the
B-Band element. In fact, the layers will tend to settle over time, -
improving the contact layer - but if you remove the saddle you may
have to re-do the clay installation if any of it falls out. I tape the
saddle on to the bridge with a single strip of scotch tape if I've
taken off all of the strings for any reason.
>- What sort of total thickness do you end up with for the two layers and the
>pickup, ie: how much do you need to route?
Again - I've not measured, it's less than one half millimeter. I
don't like to route if I don't have to, and these installations added
so little that I just took a bit off of the top of the saddle and
re-profiled a bit. I probably wouldn't even have had to do that except
I'm way too picky (anal?) and am fanatical about achieving low
actions.
I apologize for the long post.
Grace and Peace,
John
Nelson Foster
consuming, I hadn't thought of the modeling clay tho' - that seems like a
great idea. I tried using some flour (it isn't self adhesive - in fact it
doesn't adhere to anything ) and it almost worked - it was better than
shimming. So I had stuck this idea of using a packing material aside for
now - thanks to you I might make another attempt.
I got an email from B-Band a week or so ago and they mentioned that any
material used to shim should not compress (such as a strip of thin rubber)-
because they were concerned about preserving the tone of the guitar. I
assume that modeling clay is not going to compress. . . so before I try this
. . . how does it affect tone? especially on the higher strings?
Thanks in advance,
Nelson
Larry Pattis
<nelson...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Nelson,
Remember, John is using "self-hardening clay," not modeling clay (if there
is a difference?). Since I have not yet embarked on my own experience with
John's technique, I cannot yet comment about the compression/acoustic sound
issue.
Larry Pattis
Nelson Foster
misquoted John - he even mentioned the brand he used "Amoco "Mexican" or
"Marblex" self hardening clay..."
I've heard of splitting the saddle into 6 pieces, using the Fishman saddle,
shims, etc but this does seem to make sense. The clay is certainly harder
than the wood it sits on (harder anyway than post it note shims which do
work but are such a time consumer) - especially after it dries, so it fits
the description of non-compressing.
BTW I think the reason that so many professional tech types might be shying
away from the B-Band is the time issue iow if shimming is necessary then it
doesn't seem cost effective to spend all that time doing this. If this
method works, provides easier balancing, preserves tone and volume and
withstands changes in humidity and use I think John may have made everyone
happy. It's a tall order I suppose but the B-Band sounds to good to give up
on.
I just have to give this a try - I'll hit the art supply stores tomorrow and
I'll post my results after a couple of days of "drying time" -
thanks,
Nelson
Larry Pattis wrote
:
: Nelson,
John Zyla
mentioned, )It's a leveling function) . I
was concerned about tone, so I decided against the non-hardening clays
like
"Sculpey (tm)" et. al. The function I was after was to transfer
pressure and
that's it. I found that a hard material does this better. I could
discern no
difference in tone, on any of the strings when using the clay
material. In
fact, the perfect balance brings out the beauty of the B-Band - and
believe me,
I am quite enamoured of the sound I get with B-Bands. This is as I had
expected
and hoped. I would not find acceptable a material that changed the
tone. Please
experiment with this method - it's easy to remove, and I welcome
others to try
it - since the method is in it's infancy - I know folks like you and
some
others will come up with refinements especially in application. There
are no
real rules here! This is such a new application. I must say I was
extremely
excited at the results I've been getting, especially since I got
perfect
balance on a guitar that had been giving me fits. Good luck - and
lease let me
know if you try this - I'd be interested in your objective evaluation
of the
results you gain.
One more mention - I keep saying this but I can't say it enough - an
extremely
thin layer is all you need on both sides of the B-Band.
Grace and Peace,
John Zyla
On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:49:17 -0400, "Nelson Foster"
John Zyla
wrote:
>In article <7mm33c$fs5$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Nelson Foster"
><nelson...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>> John - I also thought about the problem with the shims and how it is time
>> consuming, I hadn't thought of the modeling clay tho' - that seems like a
>> great idea. I tried using some flour (it isn't self adhesive - in fact it
>> doesn't adhere to anything ) and it almost worked - it was better than
>> shimming. So I had stuck this idea of using a packing material aside for
>> now - thanks to you I might make another attempt.
>>
>> I got an email from B-Band a week or so ago and they mentioned that any
>> material used to shim should not compress (such as a strip of thin rubber)-
>> because they were concerned about preserving the tone of the guitar. I
>> assume that modeling clay is not going to compress. . . so before I try this
>> . . . how does it affect tone? especially on the higher strings?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Nelson
>
>
>Nelson,
>
>Remember, John is using "self-hardening clay," not modeling clay (if there
>is a difference?). Since I have not yet embarked on my own experience with
>John's technique, I cannot yet comment about the compression/acoustic sound
>issue.
>
Larry is right. Even though the Amoco self hardening stuff is
"modeling clay per se", there is also non-hardening modeling clay. You
will see a brand called "Sculpey (tm) " on the shelf next to the self
hardening stuff. I have not tried this, but it did not meet my specs
according to my hypothesis of what properties I wanted in a bedding
compound. I believe a soft pliable modeling clay such as Sculpey (tm)
might tend to color the sound, and my prime goal is to not affect the
tone in any discernable way. As I have mentioned to some folks, I use
the clay when I seat all of my saddles whether I am installing a
B-Band pickup or not. The reason I do this is to ensure a perfect
transfer of pressure from the saddle to the bridge (saddle slot
bottom). I do notice that I get a better (actually - I should use
the words "more consistent") sound when I do this. I am a firm
believer that the saddle is an extremely important link in the
transfer of modulated pressure (sound!) in the guitar. This is why we
all have opinions on what saddle material is best, and all that - it's
an important link. I use bone! - Tried 'em all (except carbon fiber)
and settled on bone. I need to try the carbon fiber composite stuff
cause high tech materials interest me. I think I'll end up staying
w/bone though - it's a gut feeling.
Here I've gone and written a too-long post - again I apologize for the
bandwidth usage. Please forgive me I get carried away.
Grace and Peace,
John
Larry Pattis
(John Zyla) wrote:
I think that an interesting point has been made here by John. Since SO
MUCH bandwidth has been used about B-band, it may have gone unnoticed that
"other saddle pick-ups" also have balance problems. John mentions that he
"seats" ALL his pick-up installations this way.
Tell your local shops about John's methods!
John Zyla
wrote:
>I think that an interesting point has been made here by John. Since SO
>MUCH bandwidth has been used about B-band, it may have gone unnoticed that
>"other saddle pick-ups" also have balance problems. John mentions that he
>"seats" ALL his pick-up installations this way.
Actually Larry, my sentence indicated that I seat all of my "saddles"
this way - I wrote this to indicate I do that even if I'm not
installing a B-Band - e.g. just a new bone saddle, or compensating an
existing saddle. It's important to note I've never tested any of this
with any other pickup other than the B-Band. My point was I think
there is benefit in a more consistent pressure distribution in a
regular pickup-less saddle installation. Though it's probably a
miniscule improvement in that case. I encourage other builders to do
some peer review testing and let is know if they gain the same results
with the B-Band as I have, which have been phenomenal. (gad! I sound
like I've found a non-traditional cure for some dread disease! Come
down to this Mexican clinic! Laetrile! )
Grace and Peace,
John
Larry Pattis
(John Zyla) wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:30:38 -0600, ab...@127.0.0.1 (Larry Pattis)
> wrote:
>
> >I think that an interesting point has been made here by John. Since SO
> >MUCH bandwidth has been used about B-band, it may have gone unnoticed that
> >"other saddle pick-ups" also have balance problems. John mentions that he
> >"seats" ALL his pick-up installations this way.
>
> Actually Larry, my sentence indicated that I seat all of my "saddles"
> this way - I wrote this to indicate I do that even if I'm not
> installing a B-Band - e.g. just a new bone saddle, or compensating an
> existing saddle. It's important to note I've never tested any of this
> with any other pickup other than the B-Band. My point was I think
> there is benefit in a more consistent pressure distribution in a
> regular pickup-less saddle installation. Though it's probably a
> miniscule improvement in that case. I encourage other builders to do
> some peer review testing and let is know if they gain the same results
> with the B-Band as I have, which have been phenomenal. (gad! I sound
> like I've found a non-traditional cure for some dread disease! Come
> down to this Mexican clinic! Laetrile! )
>
> Grace and Peace,
>
> John
Oops. I sit corrected. I'll bet we get a bunch of rmmga'ers to try this,
and with a variety of saddle pick-ups. We can create our own "sample
population."
I still believe in the following comment:
Tom Loredo
John's method is fascinating and certainly worthy of exploration.
I just wanted to note one slight complication.
> 2. The material must conform to surfaces, but be hard - so that it
> would *transparently* transfer pressure. A soft material would color
> the sound. This would not be acceptable.
It is absolutely true that a soft material will color the sound. I
just want to point out that a hard material can color it, too. The
most relevant parameter is probably not hardness per se, but acoustic
impedance. Whenever a vibration has to pass from a material of
one impedance to a material of a different impedance, part of the
wave gets reflected at the interface. One of the cool things about
the B-band material is that it has very similar acoustic properties
to wood, so the B-band/slot interface should be essentially transparent,
and the saddle/B-band interface should behave just like a saddle/slot
interface. Adding stuff to either side could influence the tone
even if that stuff is very hard. The fact that the added material
here is very thin might complicate or simplify matters, depending
on the speed of sound in the material (I would guess that what matters
is the size of the material relative to the wavelengths of interest).
That said, if the added material makes the mechanical contact more
consistent across the whole slot, the improvement from that (with or
without a pickup!) could very well completely mask some slight
complication due to additional mismatched impedances.
Peace,
Tom Loredo
Larry Pattis
<lor...@spacenet.tn.cornell.edu> wrote:
From now on, Tom (with your permission of course), I will be running all
of my "tech" posts by you for evaluation and approval first!
YOU are very CLEARLY da' Man!
Thanks, for about the ba-zillionth time, for adding your wisdom to all of
our existences.
John Zyla
may even be a better substance (probably is!) for the bedding
material. I encourage folks to experiment with this.
Grace and Peace,
John Zyla
On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:47:07 -0400, Tom Loredo
hed...@my-deja.com
Tom Loredo <lor...@spacenet.tn.cornell.edu> wrote:
> It is absolutely true that a soft material will color the sound. I
> just want to point out that a hard material can color it, too. The
> most relevant parameter is probably not hardness per se, but acoustic
> impedance. Whenever a vibration has to pass from a material of
> one impedance to a material of a different impedance, part of the
> wave gets reflected at the interface. One of the cool things about
> the B-band material is that it has very similar acoustic properties
> to wood, so the B-band/slot interface should be essentially
transparent,
> and the saddle/B-band interface should behave just like a saddle/slot
> interface. Adding stuff to either side could influence the tone
> even if that stuff is very hard. The fact that the added material
> here is very thin might complicate or simplify matters, depending
> on the speed of sound in the material (I would guess that what matters
> is the size of the material relative to the wavelengths of interest).
Awe jeez, Tom!
You are right about the reflection at the interface (of course, you
don't need me to tell you that). The greater the contrast in the
acoustic impedances the greater the reflection. Acoustic impedance is a
function of density and acoustic velocity. Layers that are thin with
respect to the wavelength tend towards invisibility, though, so even
though the layer (hardened clay, for example) may have an acoustic
contrast with respect to the bridge material and the bone of the saddle,
it might still be acoustically invisible if it is sufficiently thin.
You allude to this as well. My suspicion is that a thin layer of
hardened clay shouldn't affect the Tone (as Pierre would write it) a
whole lot. As it gets thicker, though, it becomes non-invisible to
frequencies with shorter wave lengths (higher frequencies) first. I
think this is called "dispersion" -- frequency selectivity with respect
to reflection, attenuation, and velocity.
One thing that should be pointed out, I guess, is that impedance does
not imply attenuation (i.e. energy dispersal). Attenuation is
inversely related to hardness though not only to hardness. In any event,
I doubt if a thin layer of clay (hardened or slightly viscous) would
have much of an effect either because of reflection or attenuation.
Best I can gather from John's description of his technique, it seems
that the clay serves as a very thin bedding layer to insure good contact
between the saddle, the transducer, and the bridge -- implying that
balancing problems are due to uneven acoustic coupling along the length
of the saddle. I would suspect that the clay would tend to "smush" out
when compressive force is applied and that it would become very very
thin in areas where there already was very good contact and coupling
from the saddle through the transducer to the bridge.
I read an article in Taylor's propaganda letter (Wood and Steel) a
couple years ago about the importance of fit between the saddle and the
bridge slot. What they claimed is that a very good flat fit along the
entire length of the saddle is not really very important. They also
claimed that good contact at the ends of the saddle (slightly concave
shape to the bottom of the saddle) was superior in sound transmission to
a saddle which had good contact in the middle but poor at the ends
(slightly convex shape). This seems to make intuitive sense to me. If
Taylor is correct in what they wrote, I think this is strong support
for what John is suggesting.
Those areas along the saddle that have good acoustic coupling will keep
it as the clay layer will probably be very thin (if not absent) there.
Where the clay is less thin would be areas where there is less than
perfect contact between the layers and the clay will ameliorate that
poor coupling. This will help the B Band but probably not have
significant effect on the acoustic properties of the guitar itself.
All this technical mumbo-jumbo is, of course, just that. The proof lies
in the results and apparently John is getting good results without a lot
of dicking around. If I had a B-band with balance problems, I sure
would give it a shot--using the material that John suggests. Seems like
a low risk option.
Harold
Tom Loredo
>
> Thanks for the comments. This is what is needed - peer review. There
> may even be a better substance (probably is!) for the bedding
> material. I encourage folks to experiment with this.
Well, as I mentioned, the fact that you are improving the contact
may well completely overwhelm impedance matching issues. I just don't
know enough acoustics/material science to know what will matter most
here. It is very probably complicated enough that having the
cleverness (and audacity?!) to experiment as John has is the only
way forward.
One possibility for experiment, besides trying different materials,
would be to try using the material only on one side. For example,
if the hardened clay is acoustically more like bone than like
wood, then any impedance-mismatch effects should be minimized if
you use it only between the saddle and the B-band. It could be
that using just one layer provides enough "stuff" to squeeze
around and deal with the slot/saddle/B-band imperfections, and
putting it where it essentially just extends the acoustically
similar saddle is enough. Though for all I know hardened clay is
acoustically more like wood than bone, in which case.... Well,
you get the idea! Trying just one layer might also reduce the
action increase. The B-band itself is pretty flexible, so I would
guess that the problems can be dealt with by "bedding" just one side.
Larry wrote:
> From now on, Tom (with your permission of course), I will be running all
> of my "tech" posts by you for evaluation and approval first!
No permission granted; you certainly don't need any such evaluation!
Nor does John, or many others here, and in any case I'm not the one
to be giving it. I just get a kick when a bit of my physics training
ends up having some relevance to music, and I make comments like
the acoustic impedance stuff more just out of my excitement about
the connection than out of any direct relevance to the practical
issues, which are usually too complicated for me to really grasp at
a theoretical level! With this stuff, it's fun to theorize, but
you really just have to play around. And *play*, of course!
> Thanks, for about the ba-zillionth time, for adding your wisdom to all of
> our existences.
Back at you! And also to John, who is clearly the real clever man in
this thread....
Peace,
Tom
Highcoyote
may even be a better substance (probably is!) for the bedding
material. I encourage folks to experiment with this. >>
Good thread!
From what i have read about materials science, the lighter and more rigid the
interface between BBAND and saddle, the more accurate the energy transfer into
the Bband transducer (think golf clubs)...thereby letting more of the guitar's
ringing spruce/mahogony/cedar top get through to the BBAND and out to the
audience.
Larry Pattis
Anyone notice how a bunch of good and useful information has finally been
generated from this thread?
I have.
No sarcasm directed at folks supporting B-band. No "making fun" of
products that "a certain individual" doesn't happen to use. No irrational
challenges or commentary.
Kind of nice, if you ask me.
Nelson Foster
installing a B-Band (which I included below from two earlier posts)
I used the same type of clay he used - a "fresh" brick of Amaco's Marblex
self hardening modeling clay (cost me 5.95) I found it in a craft store at a
local mall. This is a grey colored clay which I thought would be easier to
see while applying.
I applied it thin using a toothpick I had cut in half, using the thicker
part of the cut toothpick to apply a little clay at a time. A popsicle stick
was to thick for me to maneuver in the slot. But I still ended up applying
it a little thick I suspect. The action is just a tad to high at the 12th
fret for me to consider acceptable.
I tuned to standard and hooked the guitar up to the amp and watched the
LED's on the mixer - balanced all the way across except for the high E which
was about 30% lower. So I played a while and after about 15 minutes it had
balanced out! After 30 minutes more it hadn't changed any...It stayed
balanced! I *am* impressed with "the Zyla" technique and I'm very, very
happy with the result. The tone isn't affected much at all - and the clay is
still wet. I am going to wait till tomorrow and see what happens to the
tone in the morning after it dries a bit.
Then I'm going to take it apart and try again for lower action - John
mentioned apply thin and leave room around the sides of the slot. He's right
on there and I think I can do that better.
For 5.95 and less than an hours time! John your technique is fabulous!
grinning the big grin,
Nelson
For those just joining this thread - John's technique is described by him
below
<< start text >>
2. The material must conform to surfaces, but be hard - so that it
would *transparently* transfer pressure. A soft material would color
the sound. This would not be acceptable.
3. The material must have a fine grain structure so that it can be
used in a very thin layer so saddle height is not affected
appreciably. It's important to note here that the only function the
material must perform is to ensure even pressure transfer, so a thin
layer is all that is needed. Indeed, a *more than thin" layer would be
detrimental.
The material I decided to try is a self-hardening modeling clay. This
clay hardens without firing, is adhesive only to itself, and has a
very fine grain structure. Amoco "Mexican" or "Marblex" self hardening
clay is what I have used. This is available at art supply stores or
university book stores that have an art supplies section. It's
important to find a source that sells it once in a while, so you get a
reasonably fresh box. A 32 oz brick costs about $5.50 around here.
Enough to do about 30,000 saddles, or a few saddles and some neat
sculptures.
Here's the applcation method simplified. If you're interested and want
to try, I can go into more detail, let me know.
1. Lay down a very thin layer of bedding in the saddle slot, tamping
reasonably flat.
2. Install the pickup over the first layer.
3. Lay down another very thin layer on top of the pickup.
4. Install the saddle, and string the guitar, tuning to pitch.
5. The whole "sandwich" will cure in a day or so.
So there you have it.
<< end text >>
John Zyla
Alan asked some good questions here which John answered below - this really
adds detail to Johns process.
John Zyla <zylaN...@joymail.com> wrote in message
news:378e1bd2...@news.cs.ohiou.edu...
: On 15 Jul 1999 15:36:42 GMT, dunwell...@dorje.com wrote:
: Alan, I'll imbed some answers to your further questions below ..
:
:
: >John,
:
Andy Schreckenghost
enough to do about 500 guitars). Could only get the gray.. they had really
great colors in other stuff but the 30 minutes at 275 degrees for curing
presented special issues. Anyway.. off we go to sculpt my lousy sounding B
Band in the Goodall GC.. will report results.
Andy Schreckenghost
Houston TX
hed...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <378F7E2B...@spacenet.tn.cornell.edu>,
> Tom Loredo <lor...@spacenet.tn.cornell.edu> wrote:
>
> <snip.. a lot of interesting saddle / bridge interface stuff>
M.DeLalla/Falling Mountain Music
you, Nelson, for taking the trouble to compile/digest the thread. It's a
keeper.
--
Michael DeLalla
Falling Mountain Music
fal...@monumental.com
http://www.monumental.com/fallmtn
John Zyla
<snip>
>Best I can gather from John's description of his technique, it seems
>that the clay serves as a very thin bedding layer to insure good contact
>between the saddle, the transducer, and the bridge -- implying that
>balancing problems are due to uneven acoustic coupling along the length
>of the saddle. I would suspect that the clay would tend to "smush" out
>when compressive force is applied and that it would become very very
>thin in areas where there already was very good contact and coupling
>from the saddle through the transducer to the bridge.
Harold has written a very good interpretation of what one hopes
should happen here. The clay must be able to "smush" out - in effect,
it performs the same function as shimming with paper, except it's
automatic, and much more "accurate" than paper shims. At least that's
my analysis of the process going on under there.
As I mentioned before, even though we can try our darndest and with
the best tools to make a saddle and a saddle slot bottom perfectly
flat and square, it's extremely difficult to achieve the desired
result. The bedding material simply "fixes" any miniscule error's
we've left.
Once again, an extremely thin layer is essential.
<snip>
Nelson Foster
applying clay to the B-Band setup. If you remember yesterday I posted that
the action at the 12th fret was a little higher than I liked.
So this morning I took it all apart - the clay was hardened from last
night - (it was relatively easy to get out with a toothpick and a can of
compressed air). I saw that the thickest (although thin) portions of clay
were underneath the B-Band.
I feel the problem with this guitar is the saddle and not the slot, so this
time I didn't put a bed underneath the pickup at all, and seated the b-band
in the slot. Then instead of using the toothpick to apply the clay, I used
my fingers and made 6 small balls of clay just a bit smaller than the width
of the slot. Then I put one ball of clay on top of the b-band where each
string would be when the saddle was in place. At the high E where I had a
drop out yesterday I put a little extra clay with the toothpick. Then I put
in the saddle and used the saddle to squash the balls across the slot. I
pulled out the saddle and looked and the clay had moved into the areas
between the string locations. I could see that it was very thin as some
spots of the b-band (where the clay hadn't migrated when squashed) could
still be seen.
Basically as Harold and John have pointed out - accurate and automatic
shimming.
I put a fresh set of strings on the guitar and tuned up. Action is now
right where I like it and the B-Band is balanced - volume is great and the
tone is all B-Band.
I'm going to leave this guitar as is and give it a couple of days to settle.
If the clay shrinks as it dries I might see some volume drop out on
individual strings but I don't think it can be improved upon right now.
Nelson (watching clay dry in Virginia Beach) Foster
John Zyla <zylaN...@joymail.com> wrote in message
news:379095eb...@news.wirefire.com...
:
John Zyla
Nelson. Although I prefer a layer on both sides, this is good, and
most important, it worked for you - you've got a nice B-Band
installation now!
Grace and Peace
John Zyla
hed...@my-deja.com
Andy Schreckenghost wrote:
> Anyway.. off we go to sculpt my lousy sounding B
> Band in the Goodall GC.. will report results.
>
Andy
What is the problem with the Goodall and the B-Band? Is it a balance
problem or something else?
Chuck Murphy
--
Chuck Murphy
Richmond, RI
Nelson Foster <nelson...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:7mjkqd$975$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...
| Nice unit isn't it ;-)- It took me about the same - about an hour and a
| half - most of the time was spent getting up enough courage to drill the
| holes into the saddle - that brace thing can be a bit of a tense moment.
|
| I'm surprised (and happy for you) that you didn't have balance problems -
| must have been a good fit between the saddle and the bridge.- I've been
| trying to get a Taylor balanced for a week now - What kind of guitar did
you
| install yours in?
|
| Nelson
|
| Chuck Murphy <crmu...@ids.net> wrote in message
| news:Id6j3.2808$8c3.1...@typ41.nn.bcandid.com...
| : I've only installed one (the *new* '99 Core Pre-Amp) B-Band...no balance
| : problems at all.
| :
| : --
| :
| : Chuck Murphy
| : Richmond, RI
| :
| :
| :
| :
| : Larry Pattis <ab...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
| : news:abuse-ya02408000...@news.xmission.com...
| : | In article <19990702023259...@ng-bg1.aol.com>,
| hoj...@aol.com
| : | (Hojo2X) wrote:
| : |
| : | > Well, Lance may have said it a bit harshly, but his opinion concurs
| with
| : what
| : | > I've heard from other builders and guitar repair techs:
| : | > regardless of whether one likes the tone of the B-Bands, they do, in
| : | fact, have
| : | > a greater problem with getting a proper string balance than most of
| the
| : other
| : | > brands out there. Trying to diminish the significance of the
problem
| by
| : | > claiming it is spread out evenly with other brands is just not
| accurate.
| : | >
| : | >
| : | > Wade Hampton Miller
| : |
| : |
| : | I am not going to respond at all to Lance's angry post, but I will
point
| : | out a few things via Wade's calm, but not fully accurate post.
| : |
| : | This has ALL been said (by me) before.
| : |
| : | All saddle elements have a tendancy to string balance problems.
| : |
| : | The original B-band was indeed more prone to these problems, but the
| : | problems were fairly easy to correct, if you know how (NOT rocket
| science,
| : | simple applications of pressure via paper shims, a common luthier
| trick).
| : |
| : | The NEW B-band element (distributed with the Core99) has about the
same
| : | tendancy as any other pick-up to have balance problems. No more, no
| : less.
| : | If any one cares to dispute me on this, well, they had better have
| : | installed (themselves) about two dozen of them, because I already
have.
| : |
| : | As I said, ALL of these things have been presented by me before on
| rmmga.
| : | If anyone NOW does not make some distinction between the original gear
| : | (which again, was not too hard to deal with) and the new gear (which
is
| : | extremely easy to deal with) from EMF, well, they are possibly (I said
| : | possibly) guilty of having an agenda (just like folks think *I* have).
| : |
| : | When Wade says "they do, in fact, have a greater problem with getting
a
| : | proper string balance than most of the other brands out there" I have
a
| : | problem with this, since he is NOT making a distinction between the
the
| : | original, and the new, current B-band.
| : |
| : | I am NOT trying diminish any problems, as it is a well known fact (by
| any
| : | reputable and honest repair person) that ALL saddle elements ARE
| prone
| : | to this problem. I dispute your comment Wade, in that the builders
and
| : | guitar techs that *I* know do not think the B-band is much of a
problem
| : | (certainly not as big as is being made out here), and that includes
the
| : | original gear.
| : |
| : | Are we in the middle of another B-band debate?
| : |
| : | Why?
| : |
| : | Any original condition B-bands that Lance has, I'd be more than happy
to
| : | buy for $5 a piece. Send 'em on over.
| : |
| : | Larry "my agenda is the truth about things" Pattis
| :
| :
|
|
Nelson Foster
8^)
Nelson
Chuck Murphy <crmu...@ids.net> wrote in message
news:OS2m3.4140$4P4.1...@news3.ispnews.com...
: I installed it in a Seagull.
: