Acoustic Strings for Electric Archtop

[DanielleOM]

I was thinking of trying acoustic strings on my Eastman AR805CE.

I am debating on putting phosphor bronze or 80/20 bronze. Not sure if
there is any real difference from a magnetic response point of view.
Anyone know if there is a real difference.

The pickup I have is not adjustable.


Danielle

[Tony Done]

String-to-string balance will be very poor, because the bronze windings
are not ferromagnetic. The most obvious difference will be a hot plain
2nd string, and a low output 3rd string. I make soundhole pickups for
acoustic guitars from electric single coil pickups, and I usually have
to remove the 2nd string pole completely, and lower the 1st string to
get the balance right.

Conversely, I use 13-56 electric guitar strings (nickel-plated steel)
with a wound 3rd on my resos, because I use electric guitar pickups in them.

--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[Les Cargill]

DanielleOM wrote:
>
>
>
> I was thinking of trying acoustic strings on my Eastman AR805CE.
>
> I am debating on putting phosphor bronze or 80/20 bronze. Not sure if
> there is any real difference from a magnetic response point of view.

I doubt it.
Try it; they're what, six bucks?

> Anyone know if there is a real difference.
>
> The pickup I have is not adjustable.
>
>
> Danielle
>
>
>
>

People use magnetic soundhole pickups all the time. I think I'd
still put flatwound steel on an archtop all the same.


--
Les Cargill

[Tony Done]

Magnetic soundhole pickups that work as intended are balanced for
acoustic strings, they have very weak 2nd and 1st poles compared to
elctric guitar pickups, in which the poles only vary slightly in strength.

[DanielleOM]

I have come across a few Eastman archtops w/o the cutaway, and w/o out
the pickup. Every one of these just sounded great to me. (I find
myself wondering why. Was it the acoustic strings, the lack of a
cutaway, or do they actually do something different when they make an
AR805 in lieu of an AR805CE.

I am primarily using my Eastman AR371CE laminate top guitar with
flatwound strings these days.

Danielle

[David L. Martel]

Danielle,

That a guitar without pickups sounds good to your ears does not mean that
your guitar's pickups will "hear" acoustic strings well. Mr. Done's point
about improper string balance agrees with my memory of trying this.
But try it and see whether you like it.

Dave M.

[Tony Done]

<g> It ain't Mr, it's Dr.

It's true that the pickups "interpret" the guitars tone in their own
way, and it is really a question of choosing an interpretation that you
like. I've gone more towards magnetic pickups these days for a
potentially smoother tone. Good magnetic pickups do sense some of the
guitar's acoustic qualities, especially ones like the Baggs M1, which
are designed to do that.

Danielle, I don't know why the two versions of the same model would
sound different, it isn't what I would expect. Are you sure that they
really do, with the same strings? Electric guitar strings (nickel,
nickel-plated steel) aren't as bright acoustically as acoustic strings,
and flatwounds are as bright as roundwounds. If I was experimenting, I
would be trying stainless steel. What gauge do you use?

[DanielleOM]

On my Eastman AR805CE, I have been using the Thomastik Infeld Jazz Bepop
set with a 13 on top. They are fine wind nickel round wound set.
Gauges are 53 38 30 21 17 13. I have had D'addario jazz light round
wounds on there in the past. I have never had the opportunity to see
similar Eastmans cutaway and non cutaway at the same time. I still find
myself wondering if they approach things slightly differently when they
know the instrument is leaving the factory without a pickup.

Danielle

[Tony Done]

I had a typo in the previous post it should have read "flatwounds aren't
as bright" - blame it on senility.

None of my experience, nor anything I have read suggests that a basic
and a CE version of the same guitar would be built or sound much
different. Since this is an acoustic guitar with a magnetic pickup it is
possible that the pickup is designed for acoustic strings - a bit of
Google research on "Kent Armstrong floating pickup strings balance"
might find that for you. I know what I would be trying if it were my
guitar -13-56 (standard medium) roundwounds in nickel plated steel
(Ernie Ball), phos bronze (John pearse) and stainless - not sure which
make, I haven't bought them in years. As Les and David said, try it and see.

[DanielleOM]

I found a package of John Pearse 80/20 bronze strings here, light gauge,
(12 on top). I will see how those sound on the AR805CE. It's a good
time for me to try this. I have not been using this guitar for gigs
ever since I got the AR371CE. Although I questioned the magnetic
response it's not really a big concern at this time. It might be just
the thing to bring to an acoustic song circle I have been going to lately.

Danielle

[Tony Done]

>
> I found a package of John Pearse 80/20 bronze strings here, light gauge,
> (12 on top). I will see how those sound on the AR805CE. It's a good
> time for me to try this. I have not been using this guitar for gigs
> ever since I got the AR371CE. Although I questioned the magnetic
> response it's not really a big concern at this time. It might be just
> the thing to bring to an acoustic song circle I have been going to lately.
>
> Danielle
>
>
>
>
>

That's a good place to start. If you do plug it in, listen first a
difference the relative outputs of the 2nd and 3rd string, best done by
fretting them to the same note, eg open and 5th fret, 7th and 12th. A
lot of folks seem to be happy with moderate differences, even small ones
really bug me

[Tony Done]

On 8/22/2014 8:47 AM, Tony Done wrote:
>
>>
>> I found a package of John Pearse 80/20 bronze strings here, light gauge,
>> (12 on top). I will see how those sound on the AR805CE. It's a good
>> time for me to try this. I have not been using this guitar for gigs
>> ever since I got the AR371CE. Although I questioned the magnetic
>> response it's not really a big concern at this time. It might be just
>> the thing to bring to an acoustic song circle I have been going to
>> lately.
>>
>> Danielle
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> That's a good place to start. If you do plug it in, listen first a
> difference the relative outputs of the 2nd and 3rd string, best done by
> fretting them to the same note, eg open and 5th fret, 7th and 12th. A
> lot of folks seem to be happy with moderate differences, even small ones
> really bug me
>

Oops, that should read open and 4th etc for the 2nd and 3rd strings. I'm
more use to worrying about the balance of 3rd and 4th on electric
guitars with a plain 3rd.

[DanielleOM]

On 8/21/2014 6:47 PM, Tony Done wrote:
>
>>
>> I found a package of John Pearse 80/20 bronze strings here, light gauge,
>> (12 on top). I will see how those sound on the AR805CE. It's a good
>> time for me to try this. I have not been using this guitar for gigs
>> ever since I got the AR371CE. Although I questioned the magnetic
>> response it's not really a big concern at this time. It might be just
>> the thing to bring to an acoustic song circle I have been going to
>> lately.
>>
>> Danielle
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> That's a good place to start. If you do plug it in, listen first a
> difference the relative outputs of the 2nd and 3rd string, best done
> by fretting them to the same note, eg open and 5th fret, 7th and 12th.
> A lot of folks seem to be happy with moderate differences, even small
> ones really bug me
>

I got those strings changed and it was an interesting experiment. My
perception was that putting the 80/20 bronze strings in lieu of an
electric round wound set really made the guitar sound much more like an
acoustic guitar to me. I had often thought of trying this. I find it
odd that 9 years went by before I got around to doing it.

I have rarely used this guitar (Eastman AR805CE) since obtaining the
AR371CE approximately 8 months ago. For some reason I often found
myself struggling with that guitar to get real clear notes especially on
the lower gauge strings above the 8th fret. I have never really
understood what the reason for that was. What could it be? (Fret
shape? Fretboard width? Radius?)

I have been playing flatwound strings the past months where I am used to
sliding a little more. It would appear my technique changed enough
where the round wounds were really squeaky!

I have never been good at playing multiple guitars. I usually play one
while all of the others get ignored.


Danielle

[Tony Done]

I'm the opposite, I swap guitars all the time, just for variety. The
problems you had could be due to some physical property of the frets or
board, but I'd only be guessing. I've got small hands, and I have to
work hard to play cleanly on the low strings on the high frets.

I'd be very interested to know how it sounds plugged in with the
acoustic strings.

[DanielleOM]

Hi, I just gave it a quick listen and my initial reaction is that the
acoustic strings on this guitar are only suitable for acoustic only
use. Plugged in the two plain strings were louder, and the wound
strings had this kind of strange muted tone.

Years ago I had tried DR Zebra strings on this guitar and they did seem
to work OK. I quit using as them as they felt a little stiff to me at
the time. They did warm up the tone a little and still worked with the
magnetic pickup.

Danielle

[Tony Done]

>
> Hi, I just gave it a quick listen and my initial reaction is that the
> acoustic strings on this guitar are only suitable for acoustic only
> use. Plugged in the two plain strings were louder, and the wound
> strings had this kind of strange muted tone.
>
> Years ago I had tried DR Zebra strings on this guitar and they did seem
> to work OK. I quit using as them as they felt a little stiff to me at
> the time. They did warm up the tone a little and still worked with the
> magnetic pickup.
>
> Danielle
>
>
>

Pretty much what I expected, but good to have it confirmed. I've never
tried DRs, but it seems like a good compromise to me.

[hank alrich]

Tony Done <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> On 8/21/2014 1:03 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
> > DanielleOM wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I was thinking of trying acoustic strings on my Eastman AR805CE.
> >>
> >> I am debating on putting phosphor bronze or 80/20 bronze. Not sure if
> >> there is any real difference from a magnetic response point of view.
> >
> > I doubt it.
> > Try it; they're what, six bucks?
> >
> >> Anyone know if there is a real difference.
> >>
> >> The pickup I have is not adjustable.
> >>
> >>
> >> Danielle
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > People use magnetic soundhole pickups all the time. I think I'd
> > still put flatwound steel on an archtop all the same.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Les Cargill
>
> Magnetic soundhole pickups that work as intended are balanced for
> acoustic strings, they have very weak 2nd and 1st poles compared to
> elctric guitar pickups, in which the poles only vary slightly in strength.

That wouldn't seem to apply to BIll Lawrence pickups, as the one I have
is a single magnet.

How would a maker of an after-market soudhole pickup get pole spacing
proper for the range of guitars into which the pickup might fit? String
spacing varies considerably.


--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Tony Done]

I just had a quick look at some pics of the BL pickups. They seem to
have screw poles o a similar design to Gibson pickups, so these act as
magnetic conductors to a bar magnet. So, effectively the screw poles,
that can be adjusted, are part of the magnet. It is also possible that
the 1st and 2nd string have a smaller magnet under them than the other
for strings. I once pulled a non-adjustable Shadow pickup apart, and it
had a small bar magnet under the first two strings and a bigger one
under the other four. - But I thought the first two were still too hot,
which is why I dismantled it. That was about the same time I got
interested in making my own. The non-adjustable BL pickups might be
similar in design to the Shadow. There has also been a design for dobro
pickups (I forget by who) where the string balance was adjusted by
sliding a ferromagnetic shield over the poles to reduce their sensing
efficiency, so the BL might be designed like that.

String spacing doesn't seem to be a big issue. My old L-00 has a wide
string spacing compared to the Baggs M1 pickup I use in it, all I have
to due is raise the pole heights to compensate for the outer strings not
sitting right over the poles. It seems to me that if the string is
sitting anywhere over the pole, it doesn't need to be centered. Electric
players apparently have a problem when string bending, but I guess that
is when the string is pushed right away from the pickup pole.

[Spook]

The Tomastik-Infield Jazz BeBop's (round wound) in a .013 mentioned earlier are a good compromise. They produce a decent acoustic tone while making a magnetic pickup happy. If you run purely acoustic strings you'll be picking up the steel core as opposed to the whole string as you would with electric strings. It works but not that well. I also tried the zebra strings but found them to be not very good in the role of either acoustic or electric.

Of course, you could just set your Eastman up as an acoustic. I have a couple of acoustic archtops running K&K pickups (one is a Definity, the other inside the body transducers). They sound good as acoustics and good plugged into an acoustic amp.

[rlet...@gmail.com]

I play rhythm and fingerstyle on an 805CE strung with phosphor bronze through a PA with no problems, though my electric-centric partner notices the wound-to-unwound difference in volume when he plays it. I've tried nickel rounds and always thought them dull. Same for flatwounds, only moreso. Zebras were OK but not always easy to find.

I've had the same experience with my other archtops, all of which are solid carved and built as acoustics. The Eastman has a stock Kent Armstrong, while the others have old DeArmond-style single-coils. They all tend to wear PB mediums, and they all sound find to me when amplified.

BTW, I don't think that a light set of anything is going to sound as good on that Eastman as mediums--that kind of archtop really only starts to sing with mediums.

[DanielleOM]

It's been a while since I have used this guitar (Eastman AR805CE) on a
regular basis. I think I have lost my mental frame of reference. I have
been primarily playing my AR371CE lately with flat wound strings.

I found for swing style rhythm, (or slow Gypsy ballad), I liked the
80/20 bronze. However, I found I was not liking what I was hearing for
chord melody. Last few months I have spending time working up chord
melody stuff primarily using the top 4 strings or the middle 4 strings.
Not sure if it was the guitar or the strings I was not liking for that.

Interesting you mention mediums. There was a time when would not play a
Martin D18 with light gauge strings. I always had to have a medium set
with a 13 on top. After playing shorter scale guitars for a while I
found myself reducing the gauge on my longer scale guitars.

Not sure where I am going with all of this. I have never been good at
actively using multiple guitars. I tend to focus on one ignoring the
rest. However, I have been going to an all acoustic song circle lately,
(no amplification), causing me to use the acoustics more often.


Danielle

[DanielleOM]

On 8/22/2014 11:09 PM, Spook wrote:
> The Tomastik-Infield Jazz BeBop's (round wound) in a .013 mentioned earlier are a good compromise. They produce a decent acoustic tone while making a magnetic pickup happy. If you run purely acoustic strings you'll be picking up the steel core as opposed to the whole string as you would with electric strings. It works but not that well. I also tried the zebra strings but found them to be not very good in the role of either acoustic or electric.
>
> Of course, you could just set your Eastman up as an acoustic. I have a couple of acoustic archtops running K&K pickups (one is a Definity, the other inside the body transducers). They sound good as acoustics and good plugged into an acoustic amp.

For the time being, I am not planning any pickup installation. Actually
don't need one for the small acoustic song circle. For most events I
the AR371CE seems to be more appropriate for what I am doing. I am not
quite sure why, but I seem to have an easier time playing chord melody
with the AR371CE, and getting clear notes. I have not quite put my
finger on the reason, but I find I struggle to get the clarity I want
with the AR805CE. Not sure if it's the fretboard shape or something
else that makes me struggle with that guitar. It does produce some
strange vibrations at times that I wonder about. Sometimes wonder if
there is something coming from the pick guard assembly. I was
experimenting this morning, and right now I have a piece of paper under
the 5th string at the nut, a paper between the pickup and pick guard and
a rubber band woven between strings in front of the tailpiece.

I have a K&K pure western mini in an Eastman archback guitar. I like
the pickup. I like the sound of that guitar for chord melody.

I am wondering what archtops you have. Have any trouble with weird
noises that you had to sort out?

Do you have a preference for the two types of pickups you referenced?

I have been wanting to see an Eastman AR403CE and have not found one
nearby. I have been tempted thinking the shallower body would be better
playing standing up.

Ever see a Godin Composer? I keep wondering how that compares to the
AR371CE. Both guitars are similar in weight. (approx 5 lbs)


Danielle

[Spook]

I'm using a K&K Pure Archtop in one guitar (transducers installed near F holes inside) and a K&K Definity in another. They both sound good but you have to really zap the mid's out of the Definity to get a good acoustic sound. The Pure Archtop, on the other hand, is easy to dial in. Overall I really prefer the Pure Archtop. BTW, the Pure Archtop is the exactly the same pickup as a Pure Bass.

My archtops are made by Yunzhi. Similar to your 805. Solid woods, carved, based on Benedetto designs. Kind of went crazy and have six of them with another on order.

Yea.. Song Circles. I always take an archtop. Not only can I get over any given dreadnaught in volume and punch when playing in groups, but there are points for style. Interesting how few people know just how versatile an archtop is.