Non classical nylon string guitar
Robert Orr
classical guitar design that still sounds good acousticly? Most of the ones
that I have tried are very weak acousticly. I have not played the Taylor or
the Lowden. I have tried the Wechter, and was very underwhelmed, even after
the salesperson assured me it was as loud acousticly as any classical. I
don't know what classical guitars he has been listening too, but my meager
Yairi blew it away.
I'm looking for one with a more narrow neck and a cutaway to use on gigs to
play jazz and "gypsy" jazz.
I
John Sorell
"Robert Orr" <robe...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:v09t7fg...@corp.supernews.com...
Robert,
You might take a look at the Breedlove nylon string. It has a small neck non
traditional body. I didn't particularly care for it, but it might be just
your thing. I don't know that any nylon string guitar would be very good for
Gypsy jazz since it is so percussive. I would think nylon strings would work
for fingerstyle jazz. One that comes to mind is the Buscarino Cabaret.
John
vibrajet
"Robert Orr" wrote...
> Is there such a thing as a nylon string acoustic that is not of the
> classical guitar design that still sounds good acousticly?
The Cordoba Gypsy Kings model is nice. Thin body, cutaway, flamenco style.
Not sure of the neck width.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=021221091753207044041197523571/searc
h/g=guitar/detail/base_id/41716
I played one at GC and was impressed by the unamplified sound. Liked it a
lot.
They bill this one as a cross-over for jazz - has a narrow neck -
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=021221091753207044041197523571/searc
h/g=guitar/detail/base_id/55554
Also, the strings can make a big difference. I've been using LaBella Super
Folksingers, with a wound nylon G & B string, and I play all sorts of jazz
and blues with it. (On a mahogany-topped Guild classical)
Timothy Juvenal
Henry Tan
Although the shape may look strange, it's got excellent playability and a
wonderful tone that's as good as anything I've heard.
Warmest Regards,
Terence/Henry
Henry
"Robert Orr" <robe...@charter.net> wrote:
> Is there such a thing as a nylon string acoustic that is not of the
> classical guitar design that still sounds good acousticly?
> I'm looking for one with a more narrow neck and a cutaway to use on gigs to
> play jazz and "gypsy" jazz.
>
Robert,
The Ephiphone Chet Atkins model seems to cover all the bases: it's a
cut-away so you can easily reach notes up to the 16th-18th frets, it's a
solid body so there's no feedback, and best of all, it's a nylon
string... and it sounds GREAT acoustically (very clear). I LOVE mine!
Perhaps a local music store has one you can try.
You can hear mine in action at http://5EasyGuitarLessons.com
Just click on the link near the top of the page:
"Click Here to listen to a chord progression..."
Out
H.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"A coupla quartsa beer Would fix it so the intonation
Would not offend yer ear" -- F. Zappa
http://5EasyGuitarLessons.com | Free Weekly Audio Guitar Tip
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Al Carruth
The sound of nylon strings is fudamentaly different from that of steel: there
is far less upper harmonic in the tone. It's _very_ difficult to build a nylon
string guitar that will approach the 'brightness' of even a mediocre steel
string. Such guitars exist, but you don't want to know what they cost!
I have built a couple of archtop nylon string guitars, and they have quite a
bright and 'cutting' tone. They are also more powerful overall than the usual
classical instrument. The 'problem' with them is that they don't have the
"Spanish" sound. Sigh. Several people have said they would work well for jazz,
though.
You could try the Thomastic "S" series strings on any classical guiar, if you
really want brightness. They have steel cores, but are designed to have the
tension of nylon strings. They sound much more like steel strings than 'normal'
classical nylon strings.
Classical guitar players relish the aleability of the tone on thier
instruments. A steel string guitar always sounds 'bright' by comparison. One
player I know likens it to Julie Andrews as Maria Von Trapp in 'Sound on
Music": a nice tone but there's no 'darkness' there. Maybe it's an aquired
taste.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
http://www.alcarruthluthier.com
William D Clinger
> Is there such a thing as a nylon string acoustic that is not of the
> classical guitar design that still sounds good acousticly?
Yes. I play a Takamine NP-65C, which sounds better than my Takamine
C-132S (a popular student-quality classical). The NP-65C has been
replaced by the EAN-60C, which has a solid mahogany back instead of
the NP-65C's laminated rosewood.
(See http://www.takamine.com/?fa=detail&mid=123&sid=62 .)
The Taylor, Lowden, and Breedlove nylon-string guitars are similar.
For the folk, cowboy, and classical music that I play, I prefer the
acoustic sound of my Takamine to that of the one Taylor nylon-string
that I have tried, but the Taylor sound is probably more appropriate
for jazz. I haven't played a Lowden or Breedlove nylon-string.
The Gibson and Epiphone Chet Atkins models are nearly silent when played
acoustically, so you should think of them as nylon-string electric guitars
like the Godin nylon-stringers.
Will
jtougas
Skip Helms (www.ziaguitars.com) has started making a jazz model. The
instruments of his that I've played I've been very impressed with
(shameless plug: I helped him build the website *wry grin*).
jtougas
listen- there's a hell of a good universe next door
let's go
e.e. cummings
Mark Horning
If you can find one, Tacoma makes a nylon with a narrow neck and cutaway.
I've never personally seen one though, so I can't voutch for the sound.
Mark E. Horning, Physicist
Phoenix, Arizona
Joe McNamara
>>
Martin will be shipping the 00016SGTNE early in 2003. (y'all can call it "thay
new martin nylon string") Cedar/mahogany/rosewood f-board/saddle, 12 fret 000
w/ a 14 fret cutaway (like the Merle Haggard), Fishman UST/SBT dual source,
gloss top with a simple pearl rosette and classic Martin slotted headstock. 1
7/8' at nut, 2 5/16' at bone saddle, 18" radius. Loud as hell acoustically,
list for $1899 w/HSC.
Joe
Hojo2x
>If you can find one, Tacoma makes a nylon with a narrow neck and cutaway.
>I've never personally seen one though, so I can't voutch for the sound.
Well, if it's the nylon string Chief that you're referring to, I HAVE played
several: a couple at the factory, and one in a store.
They were underwhelming. They sounded okay plugged in, but even there they
were just okay, nothing to get delirious about. Even a lowball Yamaha solid
top classical with laminated sides and back would blow any of those nylon
string Chiefs that I tried out of the water in every respect: tone, volume,
projection.
Then Joe McNamara excitedly piped up, in his "kid just before Christmas" voice:
>Martin will be shipping the 00016SGTNE early in 2003. (y'all can call
it>"thay>new martin nylon string")
Okay, now this sounds interesting.
>Cedar/mahogany/rosewood f-board/saddle, 12 fret 000>w/ a 14 fret cutaway (like
the Merle Haggard), Fishman UST/SBT dual source,>gloss top with a simple pearl
rosette and classic Martin slotted headstock. 1>7/8' at nut, 2 5/16' at bone
saddle
>Loud as hell acoustically,>list for $1899 w/HSC.
Well, I won't buy one, (simply because nylon strings are not my THANG,) but
I'll bet you sell a bunch of them. Sounds very interesting indeed,
particularly since the top can be braced more lightly and that's one of
Martin's greatest body shapes ever.
Very cool, Joe. Thanks for the heads-up.
Wade Hampton Miller
Chugiak, Alaska
Robert Orr
classical style nylons that I have tried are not as loud as the good
classicals. It seems like some of the companies put out a model with nylon
strings just to have one out there with that option, without actually trying
to make it sound like a viable acoustic intrument that a musician would want
to perform with. I know that some people would just like to have one to play
around the house, and that's OK, but a good acoustic tone is necessary for
me to enjoy a guitar.
"Hojo2x" <hoj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021224170806...@mb-cp.aol.com...
misifus
>Martin will be shipping the 00016SGTNE early in 2003. (y'all can call it "thay
>new martin nylon string") Cedar/mahogany/rosewood f-board/saddle, 12 fret 000
>w/ a 14 fret cutaway (like the Merle Haggard), Fishman UST/SBT dual source,
>gloss top with a simple pearl rosette and classic Martin slotted headstock. 1
>7/8' at nut, 2 5/16' at bone saddle, 18" radius. Loud as hell acoustically,
>list for $1899 w/HSC.
>Joe
>
>
Gosh (snif), does this mean my OO-16C is obsolete?
-Ralph
PS My Martin is fairly loud and has a pretty good classical sound. I
have heard better pure classicals - primarily in the bass. The little
OO body doesn't have as big a bass sound as a larger concert grade
classical. However, it does have a 2" nut.
--
Misifus-
Ralph Seibert
mailto:rsei...@cox-internet.com
http://www.ralphandsue.com
foldedpath
> That Martin does sound interesting. My main
> complaint is that the non classical style nylons
> that I have tried are not as loud as the good
> classicals. It seems like some of the companies
> put out a model with nylon strings just to have
> one out there with that option, without actually
> trying to make it sound like a viable acoustic
> intrument that a musician would want to perform
> with. I know that some people would just like
> to have one to play around the house, and that's
> OK, but a good acoustic tone is necessary for
> me to enjoy a guitar.
Does that apply to the higher-end "nylon jazz" models (for lack of a
better term) by Lowden and Breedlove?
I wouldn't expect either guitar to have the volume or projection of
a $5,000-$10,000 classical guitar. But are they at least comparable
to classical guitars in the same price zone (say, $2,500 or so,
street price)?
I know David K. has the Lowden model (S25J), so maybe he can comment
on volume relative to classical guitars in the same price range. I
haven't heard anyone here say much about the Breedlove nylon string.
Mike Barrs
(Happy ChanuKwanzaMas)
John Sorell
"foldedpath" <mba...@NOSPAM.nightviewer.com> wrote in message
news:v0k2jhp...@corp.supernews.com...
I played a Breedlove a couple years ago. It did not have much volume at all.
It also had a 1 11/16 inch neck.. .a little small for nylon strings. It was
a beautiful guitar but didn't have much character at all.
John
David Kilpatrick
The Lowden is certainly as loud as a typical $1000 classical but perhaps
not as loud as a $2500 classical - which is its price bracket. But
that's not the whole story, because the Lowden has a darkness and depth
to the tone which would be quite out of place in a classical, where
puriity in the bass and sweetness in the treble are sought. The S25J has
a rushy, rumbling bass; a very dark middle range; and a treble with
great attack and 'bark' but none of that concert-classical sweetness. It
can easily be mistaken for a slack strung steel string, and produces
Django-like jazz attack when played that way.
I can remove some of this feel if I string it using regular old
classical strings, but they don't work well at all for intonation. It
needs high tension, and it prefers composite or wound G.
The reaction of classical players to trying the guitar has been 'this is
something entirely different and I want it, but not for classical
playing'. I guess it was designed as a jazz guitar and that shows. I
play celtic/folk fingerstyle personally and it suits that perfectly.
It can be substantially louder than a typical steel string when played
hard, especially on the lower strings, and I often use it as a bass
guitar substitute because a dropped D bottom string just sounds perfect
as a bassline string - same pitch as the second string of a bass guitar,
but considerably easier to handle!
David
foldedpath
news:3E0A1614...@btconnect.com...
>
>
<snip>
David,
Thanks for the feedback. I love your description of the tone...
"rushy, rumbling bass"... "bark" in the treble. :-)
> The reaction of classical players to trying the
> guitar has been 'this is something entirely different
> and I want it, but not for classical playing'. I guess
> it was designed as a jazz guitar and that shows. I
> play celtic/folk fingerstyle personally and it suits that
> perfectly.
>
Well, it sure does sound good on your online recordings!
Speaking of jazz.... how would the Lowden sound for bossa nova? I
know all the original '60's Brazilian stuff was played on
concert-type classical guitars, if not always very high-grade ones
by today's standards. Even if it's not exactly a concert-type sound,
I imagine the Lowden would still be better than a steel string for
bossa nova?
I've been learning a few Brazilian pieces lately, and I've been a
little frustrated by the brightness when played on a steel string
acoustic. This music wants a darker sound, I think. It actually
works pretty well on an electric guitar using a neck pickup and a
clean/dark jazz tone on the amp. It just doesn't seem to sit so well
on a steel string acoustic guitar. Or maybe I just haven't figured
out the right attack to soften or darken it up.
Thanks to John also, for feedback on the Breedlove. I figured if it
was a really outstanding guitar, we'd hear it mentioned more often.
The new Martin nylon string sounds interesting, but (speaking for
myself), the rosewood fingerboard bothers me. I wish they had
charged just a few more bucks and put an ebony board on there. Maybe
Martin is leaving room in the product line for a higher-end model
with an ebony board, and Indian rosewood back and sides? That would
compete more directly against the Taylor, Lowden, and Breedlove
rosewood/cedar "jazz" nylon string guitars in the mid $2k range.
Mike Barrs
Al Carruth
were both lightened up to go with the lower string tension. It was plenty loud,
and, in some ways, the best 'classical' guitar I've made (at least, some of my
students thought so). It doesn't have a 'Spanish' sound, though it has enough
'darkness' in it to be useful for the part of the repertoire that calls for it.
I suspect that the Martin will work well _if_ they have the guts to lighten up
on it enough.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
Hojo2x
>My main complaint is that the non
>classical style nylons that I have tried are not as loud as the
good>classicals. It seems like some of the companies put out a model with
nylon>strings just to have one out there>with that option, without actually
trying>to make it sound like a viable acoustic intrument that a musician would
want>to perform with.
Actually, the companies are TRYING diligently to come up with a viable acoustic
instrument, the PROBLEM is that it's actually very, very difficult to get nylon
strings to drive ANY guitar design effectively.
The reason that classical guitars have evolved to the shape that you commonly
see is NOT because the classical players are these rock-ribbed conservatives
who refuse to buy anything else, but because that's the size and shape that
works the best for nylon strings.
Those nylon strings themselves are just woefully inefficient at driving the top
when compared to the energy-transmitting qualities of steel strings. It's
because of the STRINGS themselves that steel string guitars can be built in so
many wildly varying shapes and sizes and still manage to sound very cool in
most applications.
But the same does not apply to nylon strings, unfortunately. Their treble
response in particular is pretty lacking, so the guitars have to be engineered
very carefully to get that.
Robert Orr
a somewhat "jazz friendly" neck would be what I am looking for. I would
think a good acoustic tone could be built into a box like that. Maybe some
of the designs are just trying to be a little too radical for a nylon string
to sound good. Of course, the pickup system would have to be perfect also
:>) I played a Takamine 132SC recently, and it was really pretty close, but
when plugged in, the high e was much louder than the other strings, so I
didn't buy it. It also didn't have solid back and sides, and I think that
would really affect the acoustic tone as well.
Wouldn't the overall cubic feet of "airspace" inside the box have a lot to
do with the volume? I would think that the shape would have less effect than
the volume of air involved. I have built three acoustics myself, two steel
strings and a classical, but I don't know nearly enough about it all to have
a definite opinion.
"Hojo2x" <hoj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021225182445...@mb-fd.aol.com...
Hojo2x
wrote:
>I think that a good classical shape 12 fret body with a gentle cutaway and>a
somewhat "jazz friendly" neck would be what I am looking for. I would>think a
good acoustic tone could be built into a box like that.
Oh, sure. It's been done.
The big honkin' necks on classicals, in particular, could be reprofiled easily
enough.
As it happens, that width of fingerboard never became standard for classicals
until Andres Segovia reached a worldwide audience, and there are still parts of
Spain where guitars are made with a somewhat narrower fretboard.
Robert continues:
>Maybe some>of the designs are just trying to be a little too radical for a
nylon string>to sound good.
Could be.
I know for a fact that with the nylon string Chief the Tacoma Guitar Compan
design team said: "What the heck, let's just run it up the flagpole and see if
anyone SALUTES..." They already had the forms for the body shape, so the only
real re-engineering that had to be done was in designing a neck and programming
the CNC machine to carve it.
That cost them some development costs, of course, but it was minor compared to
tooling up for an entirely new body design.
Robert concludes:
>Wouldn't the overall cubic feet of "airspace" inside the box have a lot to
>do with the volume? I would think that the shape would have less effect than
>the volume of air involved. I have built three acoustics myself, two
steel>strings and a classical, but I don't know nearly enough about it all to
have>a definite opinion.
Truthfully, I don't know enough about classical guitars to have developed my
own opinion on the topic, I'm just passing along what one very good builder of
classicals has told me, and what I've observed along the way. There really DO
seem to be a lot more limitations on what works well with those strings.
Hope that makes sense.
Al Carruth
part of the spectrum of nylong strings, In addition nylon strings have about
1/2 to 2/3 the total tension of steel, so there's that much less _total_ energy
to begin with. You can make up for it by using a high action, which is possible
on nylons because of the wide fingerbaord and low tension. Some of the better
classical players I know have the action high enough that they can actually put
_more_ energy into the strings than most steel string players can, but there's
still the treble problem.
The key to making a loud classical is to keep the top really light. It's a big
help to start off with the very best grade of top, which is usually somewhat
stiffer in the cross grain direction than the lower grades. This 'free'
stiffness allows you to make the top thinner and lighter. This works against
the factories, where material costs are a higher part of the final tally than
with most individual luthiers.
An individual can also 'push' the top a little more than a factory. In mass
production you have to use designs that will work for the _worst_ piece of wood
you are going to use. Good quality control in wood selection can help, of
course, but it's still impossible fo them to work with each piece the way a
hand maker can.
As Wade says, the reason classical guitars tend to be similar is that that
design works well. The 'selective pressure' on usical instruments is very high,
and they evolve quickly toward an optimum. X-bracing allows for a somewhat
larger top, but it doesn't sound 'Spanish', and so may never catch on, even
though it can be louder. In fact, very few of the 'radical' designs sound very
much like 'traditional' classical guitars. But we luthiers keep trying!
Alan Carruth / Luthier
Rolavine
rather than a 1 7/8" width, they could check out some of the new Yamaha cutaway
classics, and some of the Spanish made electric acoustic flamenco style
guitars.
I find that a 1 7/8" witdth nut on a nylon string guitar is not useful at all.
One of the greatest things about a classical guitar is being able to ring clear
open strings adjacent to strings that are fretted. With a narrow nut you can't
do this.
David Kilpatrick
foldedpath wrote:
> I imagine the Lowden would still be better than a steel string for
> bossa nova?
>
> I've been learning a few Brazilian pieces lately, and I've been a
> little frustrated by the brightness when played on a steel string
> acoustic. This music wants a darker sound, I think.
It's not quite as good as a regular classical for the barre chord shapes
needed for bossanova on the middle and bass strings - the extra 4mm on
the classical nut width gives a bit more room for shifting fingers
around. I would probably raise the action a touch on the Lowden for the
rythmic chops needed, as with the standard action provided it's fairly
low for a nylon string, and can clatter a bit on frets.
Have you tried fitting the steel string with JOHN PEARSE FOLK STRINGS?
These are strange things - silk core basses, and trebles with a
microfilament core wrapped in flatwound steel tape. They are low tension
and give this really unusual sound, very dark mids, very twangy highs
and with purring basses.
they don't last a thousand years, being quite complex and delicate
strings, and they are not cheap either, but they MIGHT transform a
lightly built steel string into something very jazzy.
JP also does a special gypsy jazz string set, again, nothing like normal
strings, which was intended for South American and gitane music. they
would be another possibility.
David
foldedpath
>
> Have you tried fitting the steel string with
> JOHN PEARSE FOLK STRINGS?
>
> These are strange things - silk core basses,
> and trebles with a microfilament core wrapped
> in flatwound steel tape. They are low tension
> and give this really unusual sound, very dark
> mids, very twangy highs and with purring basses.
>
<snip>
David, thanks for the suggestions. I may try those JP Folk strings.
It's cheaper than buying a new guitar!
Mike Barrs
Ian Jackson
> >> I'm looking for one with a more narrow neck and a cutaway to use on
gigs to
> >> play jazz and "gypsy" jazz
If you have not already come across them, Maccaferri guitars can also be had
with nylon stings. When Mario Maccaferri originally went into partnership
with Selmer as well as the Steel Strung 'D' hole that most people are aware
of, a classical style guitar was also available. Mario himself was a
classical guitarist of some standing. I've seen nylon strung guitars being
exhibited by luthiers at the Gypsy Jazz Festival at Samois in France (they
are great to play) and I know that some luthiers still make such a model. Do
a search for -Maccaferri Guitar luthier- on the net and I sure you will come
up with something. They are I would suggest the ideal Jazz/Gypsy nylon
strung guitar. That's what they were designed for. I've tried a variety of
other nylon strung and given the choice I would go with the Maccaferri style
every time for the style of music you mention. If you want me to point you
in the direction of some luthiers come back to me.
All the best
Ian
www.nuages.co.uk
"Joe McNamara" <jom...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021224163650...@mb-ch.aol.com...