Neck Joint: Mortise-tenon vs dovetail
Danielle E
offerings have mortise/tenon neck joints in lieu of the traditional dove
tail.
Anyone know the pros and cons?
Danielle
KenS
dovetail may improve the sound of the guitar. I personally don't see
it as an issue - Collings uses a bolt-on neck and their guitars are
some of the best sounding around. I think that as long as the neck
joint is tight and results in the proper neck angle one is equally fine
with either. The woods, bracing, and overall build quality are much,
much more important. I would never buy or not buy a guitar on the
basis of the design of its neck joint.
On con of the dovetail: it is the most difficult design to deal with
when it comes to doing a neck reset - a repair which all acoustics need
sooner or later.
Ken
Misifus
The dovetail is traditional and it works well. If properly made, neck
resets are routinely done with dovetails. The mortice/tenon, or
"bolt-on" necks are newer technology and some folks really don't like
them. However, as has been noted, Taylor uses the bolt-on and so do a
number of well-known builders. The bolt-on is easier to build and
easier to reset. IMO, if properly done, either will work well.
-Raf
--
Misifus-
Rafael Seibert
mailto:raf_s...@cox.net
http://www.ralphandsue.com
JD
The only thing the dovetail has going for it is its "traditional"
cachet. Built right they're as good as anything else *but* they're also
more labor intensive and give more opportunities for gaps. Sound
doesn't transmit through gaps. When it come to the inevitable neck
reset a dovetail is at best a PITA to disassemble. This assumes the
joint was designed to be disassembled. Martins and Gibsons are.
Larrivees and Framuses (Framii?) aren't and it isn't pretty when they
need to come apart. A stroll through the aisles at Healdsburg would
tell you that more than half of the best guitars availble are being
built with bolt-ons, most likely for pragmatic reasons. The question to
ask is if the dovetail depth extends to the 15th fret. If not, pulling
that fret and drilling a few steam hole is futile and is much more
likely to result in breakage when the joint is separated.
JD
David Hajicek
"Misifus" <raf_s...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:2PS%e.29142$hp.79@lakeread08...
> The dovetail is traditional and it works well. If properly made, neck
> resets are routinely done with dovetails. The mortice/tenon, or "bolt-on"
> necks are newer technology and some folks really don't like them.
> However, as has been noted, Taylor uses the bolt-on and so do a number of
> well-known builders. The bolt-on is easier to build and easier to reset.
> IMO, if properly done, either will work well.
>
> -Raf
>
> --
> Misifus-
> Rafael Seibert
> mailto:raf_s...@cox.net
> http://www.ralphandsue.com
I think the majority of new guitar designs use a bolt-on neck. The reason
is that it is easier to get an accurate neck setup and should adjustment be
needed, it isn't a big deal.
I've heard people say that they can "hear" the bolts in the neck. I kind of
doubt that, though it does add a little mass at a point which is
acoustically not active. I think the dovetail is mostly a tradition and a
sales point (differentiator) for those who use a dovetail. But it was also
traditional to have poor setup on the action.
Stradivarius has a bit of a rep in violin making. He used nails to hold his
necks on. So if we really wanted tradition, maybe we should be using nails?
;>)
The kit guitar I built has a bolted-on dovetail. So I've got all bases
covered.
Dave Hajicek
JD
David Hajicek wrote:
<snip>>
> I've heard people say that they can "hear" the bolts in the neck.
I've never heard of anyone who can hear the bolts in a blind test. I
think when one is predisposed to prefering one joint or another that
they subconsciously hear what they want to to hear. I'd bet the farm
that handing these folks a series of guitars that they weren't already
familiar with while blindfolded would yield different results.
JD
Tony Done
Bolt-on is a plus factor for me when choosing a guitar, in any price range.
My two modern flattops, a Martin D-16 and a Bourgeois both have bolt-on
necks. The Bourgeois neck is fully removable with screws (ie no glue at
all), and it sounds ***good***.
FWIW, I think that the new Martins, such as the 16 series, have other design
advantages over the traditional ones in addition to the neck joint. I've
posted on this a couple of times.
Tony D
"Danielle E" <danie...@reply.to.group.com> wrote in message
news:XiQ%e.6$bn...@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
McCollum
"JD" <jdblac...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128275029.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>. A stroll through the aisles at Healdsburg would
> tell you that more than half of the best guitars availble are being
> built with bolt-ons, most likely for pragmatic reasons.
No, most of the new makers don't have enough experince to tackle a dove tail
joint!
Lance
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JD
McCollum wrote:
> "JD" <jdblac...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1128275029.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >. A stroll through the aisles at Healdsburg would
> > tell you that more than half of the best guitars availble are being
> > built with bolt-ons, most likely for pragmatic reasons.
>
> No, most of the new makers don't have enough experince to tackle a dove tail
> joint!
>
> Lance
Yrah, that's another story altogether having to do with the difference
between mere luthiers and journeyman woodworkers. Still, there are a
lot of great guitars being built with bolt-ons. Better a well executed
bolt-on than a marginal dovetail anyday.
JD
McCollum
Harvey Leach
--
Visit Leach Guitars website at
http://www.leachguitars.com
"McCollum" <mcco...@mccollumguitars.com> wrote in message
news:11283204...@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
>
> "JD" <jdblac...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1128314176.9...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> McCollum wrote:
>> > "JD" <jdblac...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:1128275029.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> > >. A stroll through the aisles at Healdsburg would
>> > > tell you that more than half of the best guitars availble are being
>> > > built with bolt-ons, most likely for pragmatic reasons.
>> >
>> > No, most of the new makers don't have enough experince to tackle a dove
> tail
>> > joint!
>> >
>> > Lance
>>
>> Yrah, that's another story altogether having to do with the difference
>> between mere luthiers and journeyman woodworkers. Still, there are a
>> lot of great guitars being built with bolt-ons. Better a well executed
>> bolt-on than a marginal dovetail anyday.
>>
>> JD
> Yea, and some of us still here the difference between bolts and dove tails
> !
> Lance
>
I know that dovetails don't sound that good after they've been folded in
half and carried off in a backpack.
Harv
JD
McCollum wrote:
> "JD" <jdblac...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1128314176.9...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > McCollum wrote:
> > > "JD" <jdblac...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1128275029.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > >. A stroll through the aisles at Healdsburg would
> > > > tell you that more than half of the best guitars availble are being
> > > > built with bolt-ons, most likely for pragmatic reasons.
> > >
> > > No, most of the new makers don't have enough experince to tackle a dove
> tail
> > > joint!
> > >
> > > Lance
> >
> > Yrah, that's another story altogether having to do with the difference
> > between mere luthiers and journeyman woodworkers. Still, there are a
> > lot of great guitars being built with bolt-ons. Better a well executed
> > bolt-on than a marginal dovetail anyday.
> >
> > JD
> Yea, and some of us still here the difference between bolts and dove tails
> !
> Lance
I know anyone who builds guitars as nice as yours has to have golden
ears but I'm a bit skeptical on this one. I'll bring a blindfold to the
'07 HGF.
JD
Fletch
KenS wrote On 10/02/05 06:17,:
> I would never buy or not buy a guitar on the basis of the design of its neck joint.
>
So you'd be fine with one of those old Aria fender style bolt on neck acoustics? ;)
--fletch (showing his age)
JD
I can't recall being impressed with any acoustic guitar I've ever
played with that style of bolt-on jointive it but I guess I'd have to
don the blindfold before I could give it a fair shake.
JD
David Hajicek
"McCollum" <mcco...@mccollumguitars.com> wrote in message
news:11283204...@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
>
> !
> Lance
>
goes "Plink" when you drop it on the floor and a dovetail goes "thunk"?
Dave Hajicek
McCollum
"David Hajicek" <haj...@skypoint.com> wrote in message
news:FaadnfbhT5B...@skypoint.com...
Fletch
JD wrote On 10/03/05 14:53,:
These old Aria acoustics were just plain bizarre. Some actually sounded pretty good. But a Fender
style bolt on neck?? I suppose if you had to... and couldn't afford anything else... I guess...
Oh, the humanity!!
--fletch
Zeke Skarland
> > "McCollum" <mcco...@mccollumguitars.com> wrote in message
> > news:11283204...@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
> > >
> > > Yea, and some of us still here the difference between bolts and dove
> tails
> > > !
> > > Lance
> "David Hajicek" <haj...@skypoint.com> wrote in message
> news:FaadnfbhT5B...@skypoint.com...
> >
> > Do you mean one sounds better than the other to you, or do you mean a bolt
> > goes "Plink" when you drop it on the floor and a dovetail goes "thunk"?
> >
> > Dave Hajicek
McCollum wrote:
> I usually don't try to drop one of my guitars or a Ryan : 0
>
> Lance
This is asked inall seriousness (and agreeing with JD that an
accomplished luthier undoubtedly has MUCH better ears than moi.). Do
you think there's an inherent diff. between an excellent bolt neck and
an excellent dovetail neck? Such that, assuming both are well done by
excellent guitar builders (factory or hand built), and the rest of the
guitar itself is excellent... that a dovetail is superior in sound.
Again, I'm asking because I don't know and really can't hear it. But i
know I don't have a "great" ear. A LOT of guitars sound super to me,
probably many of which aren't considered "great" by a person w/ a
better ear than me. thanks - zeke
jgo...@my-deja.com
>>>"Danielle E" >>> mortise/tenon neck joints in lieu of the >>>traditional dove tail. >>>Anyone know the pros and cons?
>>>Zeke Skarland >>>Do you mean one sounds better than the >>>other to you, Do you think there's an inherent diff. >>>>>between an excellent bolt neck and an excellent >>>dovetail neck?
I am of the school that holds that EVERYTHING affects the sound of
the guitar. Change brand or gauge of strings, get a different sound.
Change picks, get a different sound. Change a plastic saddle for bone,
get a different sound. Change the relative humidity, get a different
sound. So, if you are looking for the True Traditional Martin Sound
(which does exist), you think dovetail. Its not a matter of better or
worse.
Zeke Skarland
i absolutely agree with you about everything affecting sound. Even to
an tin ear like mine, string diff. are huge. But round and round, what
I was trying to say was, is there really an inherant difference in
sound between the two joints. For example, is it impossible to get a
Martin sound by designing the entire guitar (and making it well) around
the Martin design except for using a bolt on neck? Don't Collings
guitars, some of them, have an excellent martin sound? Again, not
trolling, just curious. -zeke
Ed Edelenbos
news:1128556287.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> jgo...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> I am of the school that holds that EVERYTHING affects the sound of
>> the guitar. Change brand or gauge of strings, get a different sound.
>> Change picks, get a different sound. Change a plastic saddle for bone,
>> get a different sound. Change the relative humidity, get a different
>> sound. So, if you are looking for the True Traditional Martin Sound
>> (which does exist), you think dovetail. Its not a matter of better or
>> worse.
>
> i absolutely agree with you about everything affecting sound. Even to
> an tin ear like mine, string diff. are huge. But round and round, what
> I was trying to say was, is there really an inherant difference in
> sound between the two joints. For example, is it impossible to get a
> Martin sound by designing the entire guitar (and making it well) around
> the Martin design except for using a bolt on neck? Don't Collings
> guitars, some of them, have an excellent martin sound? Again, not
> trolling, just curious. -zeke
>
That was exactly what came to my mind... Collings. There are a few that
sound more like Martins than Martins do. I've heard a few of 'em.
(grin...) Assuming a well executed joint, any of the methods can be great
sounding. All things considered (IMNS educated O), the neck joint is well
below many of the other differences stated, including things as simple as
string material or gauge. Again, assuming well executed joints, I would
think the weight of a different set of tuners or even bridge pins would
affect the sound more.
Ed
JD
The caveat is "assuming well executed joints". I just got my Larrivee
OMV back from its reset. It had an extraordinarily poorly executed
dovetail with huge gaps and 4+ layers of *paper* shims. Cat epoxied on
some veneer to build up the male side of the dovetail and fitted it
from there. No gaps, full contact. It sounds better than when it went
in by an order of magnitude. I don't think a well executed dovetail
sounds any different than a well executed bolt-on. It's just that it's
much easier to come up with perfect mating surfaces with a Bolt-on as
opposed to dovetail and it costs a lot more to find out how good or bad
a dovetail is. Some people are good at dovetails; Roy McAlister's are
quite robust and fit together like a Chinese puzzle box. Roy is also
the difference between a mere luthier and a master woodworker.
JD
JD
I think it still gets down to the quality of the joint. Martins of the
'70's were reknowned for being wildly inconsistent. By the same token,
Martin dovetails of that era that I've seen were just as likely or not
to have poorly fitted dovetails. I think there's a connection. It's not
whether the neck joint is a bolt-on or dovetail that counts, it's the
quality of the joint itself.
JD