staining process for acoustic guitar?
GarageGuitar
jumbo acoustic I'm working on. What I'd like to do is stain the back,
sides and neck a transparent red, leaving the spruce top natural. I'd
also like to bind body, headstock and fingerboard with natural maple
bindings.
My thoughts here are to stain the back/sides/neck before attatching
the fingerboard or routing binding channels. This way I can apply the
natural bindings and apply clearcoat without risking staining the
spruce top or the maple bindings.
Can anyone back me up on this approach before I botch the job? Thanks
JimLo...@aol.com
The musings of an amateur builder:
I can tell you that aniline dyes are usually prefered over stains,
especially over the oil based stain variety. You may also wish to
consider dying the finish, rather than the wood. Aniline dyes are
available as both alchohol or water based. I am not sure if there is
a huge advantage of one over the other. IMHO the dye is more
transparent than stains and allows more of the grain to show through.
I just like it better. Again, MHO, but I do not consider soaking the
wood with a penetrating oil based stain to give the best results
regarding tone.
Best wishes,
Dr. Jim Lowther
Kevin Hall
doing some noticeable damage to the stained finish with the router guide or
what ever system you're using for routing. I guess you could stain, then
seal that with a couple of coats of lac to protect it, but you still have
binding glue ooze and scraping to contend with.
If the maple has any figure at all, it pays to highlight that by washing
the body in an alcohol based stain a shade or two darker than you intend to
end up with. The 'curls' in curly maple are just end grain surfacing where
it shouldn't, and end grain picks up stain faster and deeper than does the
surrounding long grain. After you've darkened the back and sides, sand
them back 'til you have almost the raw wood colour everywhere except the
curls ( or what ever figure you're working with). The figure will now stand
out much more against the plain background than it will if you just stain
the whole thing overall. Now stain again with the colour you want to end up
with, seal and finish. You'll be amazed at how much the figure jumps out
at you as compared with a straight stain job. It makes a relatively plain
maple set look twice as fancy, and costs very little compared with a great
set of maple.
I often use a combination of staining as above with alcohol based stain,
then adding to the depth of that colour with a little tint in the first set
of lac. coats. With a bit of practice on suitable bits of scrap you can
come up with your own system which suits your taste and available materials
and equipment.
I do my staining after the body is bound and all carpentry, scraping and
sanding is completely over, and I suspect the vast majority of builders do
as well. The problem of keeping or taking unwanted stain or colour off the
bindings can be handled a number of ways. Some guys use good quality
body-shop masking tape to protect light wooden bindings, others choose to
scrape after the fact. If you like you can protect the light binding by the
application of a couple of wash coats of clear sealer or lac. applied
carefully with a brush before the staining operation. You'll still probably
have a little scraping to do, but a whole lot less than you will if you
leave the binding unsealed.
As for the top, that's easily protected with a couple of light washcoats of
sealer or lac prior to kicking off the festivities. It is a good practice
to apply a washcoat on the spruce or cedar etc. anyway, prior to routing
for binding. The dried lac. protects the soft top from nicks, scratches
etc. as you run the router guide around and it also stiffens up the grain of
the softwood which results in a cleaner fuzz-free cut. A side benefit is
that it stops glue ooze out from getting into the pores of the top while you
are binding the thing. That makes post-binding clean-up much faster and
easier and reduces the chance of sanding little hollow spots in the softer
top just inside the purfling as you chase glue puddles that have penetrated
the surface. You'll be amazed at how much damage you see in that thin lac.
coating after you've done the routing, binding and scraping. Of course
it's easy to scuff sand that thin layer of lac off again immediately prior
to proper finishing, and you won't need to inadvertently thin the top at
all while cleaning it up.
Good luck.
KH
Timberline Guitars and Ukes,
Canada.
"GarageGuitar" <charle...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:72dc0349-3e51-4716...@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Kenneth
wrote:
>You may also wish to
>consider dying the finish, rather than the wood.
Howdy,
That approach is likely to cause problems:
Modest differences in the thickness of a finish with little,
or no color, will not make much difference.
If the finish carries the color however, even modest
differences in thickness will cause significant variation in
color.
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
McCollum
"GarageGuitar" <charle...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:72dc0349-3e51-4716...@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
You have to do the binding before you do the tint. There is no way to level
it flush with the sides without screwing up the tint. You can seal the
binding with shellac or lacquer to help prevent the dye from bleeding into
it. Then you have to decide whether you want to try to stain the wood with
red dye, or if you just want to do it a tinted lacquer coat to give that red
see-through appearance, which, in your case, would be the first option. This
is a very difficult task if you haven't built many guitars. Staining woods
and getting the color right is not as easy as it sounds. But if you decide
to go that route, get the metal acid dyes from LMI. The ones that are
soluble with MEK. Which you could also use to tint the lacquer.
Lance
Kevin Hall
are serious health hazards unless used under controlled conditions.
Alcohol stains may not be as fade resistent, but they are easy to wash back
if the rookie gets his colour wrong. They also are kinder to guns and
equipment than are acid-based stains or dies if the operator leaves them in
the gun.
KH
"McCollum" <mcco...@mccollumguitars.com> wrote in message
news:LIxoj.64$at3....@news.sisna.com...
GarageGuitar
the rookie warnings! Your staining process for maple sounds very
interesting. The maple I'm using is not particularly figured, so
anything I can do to enhance the appearance in the finishing is great.
I'll also look into some good masking tape for protecting the bindings
during the staining process - I'm really not that good with a small
brush! If tape will do the trick, that's better for me!
As an asidem, and at the risk of sounding the rookie again, is anyone
using water-based finishes? I know nitro lacquer is "the" finish for
guitars, and I have some experience using it, but I'm not particularly
fond of the noxious vapurs associated with it. (I'm building at home
with kids around). If there's a good water-based system out there, I'd
be interested in checking it out - no fumes, easy cleanup and safe to
have around the house, etc.
Thanks again for the advice.
David Hajicek
Charles:
If you are good with tape, put the tape on the to-be-stained parts and do
several light wash coats of lacquer or blond shellac (less fumes) to seal
the wood binding. I do not trust tape with dyes as they can wick under the
edge even when everything is perfect. If you have a black line in the
binding between the side and the binding, this gives you a line to follow
and hides imperfections. Then just the tape on the bindings will work fine.
Put tape on the bindings for the staining and initial coats over the stains.
There are some good water based finishes out there now. Getting "good"
results is pretty easy (not as good as lacquer, but acceptable). Just spray
the stuff on. Don't brush a fresh stained surface as the finish will pick
up the stain and show streaks. Once the stained surface is sealed, you can
brush if you prefer.
If you can stand a little lacquer, it makes excellent first coats to spray
over the stain to bring out the color of the wood and seal in the stain.
I'd recommend at least two coats. Don't sand through this or you will
regret it. Shellac sprayed on will also work well and doesn't stink so
badly. You will need more coats of shellac to get a little pore fill. But
I think it is trickier to spray than lacquer as it doesn't want to flow out
like lacquer. But for the first coats, this shouldn't be a problem. Once
sealed in this fashion, the waterborne finishes can give excellent results.
Do the same sealing on the top to bring out the grain.
My favorite waterborne coating is Target Coatings: Oxford Ultima Spray
Lacquer (USL). It is very forgiving and sands and buffs out much like NC
Lacquer. The deadly "blue haze" of most waterborne finishes goes away as it
fully hardens. It also burns in between coats a bit like lacquer. This can
be sprayed or brushed.
Good luck.
Dave Hajicek
Kevin Hall
I've used recently is the Classic Instrument Lacquer sold by Mohawk, and it
is available up here from a number of sources. I know there's an outfit
near Toronto that handles it, as most of the Toronto builders are using it
these days.
Dave Hajicek is right; the Target Ultra waterborne is about the best of
its' type that I've used, although it isn't in the same class as a good
'real' lac like the Mohawk.
KH
"GarageGuitar" <charle...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:72dc0349-3e51-4716...@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Tony Done
"Kevin Hall" <timbe...@webhart.net> wrote in message
news:13q6dnu...@corp.supernews.com...
> I'm hesitant to recommend that stuff to beginners, since MEK, MIBK etc.
> are serious health hazards unless used under controlled conditions.
>
> Alcohol stains may not be as fade resistent, but they are easy to wash
> back if the rookie gets his colour wrong. They also are kinder to guns
> and equipment than are acid-based stains or dies if the operator leaves
> them in the gun.
>
> KH
I don't have anything specific in mind, but I had been wondering before this
thread started about staining by applying diluted alcohol-based stain
through a (HVLP) spray gun. Good idea for an amateur who is more than a bit
ham-fisted?
Using lac as a mask is a great idea too, haven't read that one before.
Tony D
Kevin Hall
work. They have small venturis and seem to atomize something as thin as
alcohol stain well. The beauty of using the alcohol base is that you can
wipe it off again using a rag wet with alc. if you don't like the look when
it's dry. To my feeble mind, that makes it ideal for relatively
inexperienced builders.
I well remember having a good old DeVilbiss EGA touchup gun pretty much
destroyed by one of the crew at Martin Canada leaving acid based stain in it
and forgetting about it.
If you have a fine needle and cap for your HVLP gun, it should be fine,
but it is possible to buy the little door wedge guns at auto supply joints
for around $25 or less.
KH
"Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:2PLoj.9900$421....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Tony Done
>I use cheap little 'door wedge' guns for shooting stain and other small
>work. They have small venturis and seem to atomize something as thin as
>alcohol stain well. The beauty of using the alcohol base is that you can
>wipe it off again using a rag wet with alc. if you don't like the look when
>it's dry. To my feeble mind, that makes it ideal for relatively
>inexperienced builders.
>
> I well remember having a good old DeVilbiss EGA touchup gun pretty much
> destroyed by one of the crew at Martin Canada leaving acid based stain in
> it and forgetting about it.
>
> If you have a fine needle and cap for your HVLP gun, it should be fine,
> but it is possible to buy the little door wedge guns at auto supply joints
> for around $25 or less.
>
> KH
> "Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:2PLoj.9900$421....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
The HVLP is a cheap Wagner, all plastic. The critical bits seem virtually
indestructable by solvents and dried paint, (just peels off) and spares are
readily available. The trigger is adjustable for output, plus cone or fan
settings, but that's it. I can get a very low output with thin liquids, no
good for anything heavy though. The only real cricism I have is that it only
comes with a big pot. For Oz$200, I was pretty pleased with it.
Tony D
Mike Brown
I've just bought a HVLP (15 - 40 psi) top feed gun to paint my car
project with.
It only cost me $58 Aus, and is all alloy and stainless steel with a
1 litre pot.
I'm hoping it will work well. My experiences with top feed guns suggest
that it will.
MJRB
Tony Done
"Mike Brown" <rock...@chariot.net.au> wrote in message
news:47a40...@news.chariot.net.au...
I did a bit of research on this before I bought the Wagner - which is pumped
by a "vacuum cleaner" type device, a fan and a wide tube. The advice I got
from one of the spray gun trade stores in town is that you need a fairly big
compressor to deliver all that wind to make them work properly. I'll be
interested to hear how you get on.
Tony D
Clifford Heath
> I've just bought a HVLP (15 - 40 psi) top feed gun to paint my car
> project with.
> It only cost me $58 Aus, and is all alloy and stainless steel with a
> 1 litre pot.
Hey Mike, tell us Aussies a little more. What brand/model, where did
you buy it, and what sort of compressor do you use/need to run it?
Clifford Heath.
Mike Brown
I'm not absolutely sure that my compressor will be big enough, the
instructions with the gun say a 2hp unit, it should be OK.
I'll let you know what brand and model when I get out to the workshop to
have a look (it's 11.00pm and I'm not going out now).
It came from "Super Cheap Auto".
MJRB
GarageGuitar
Kitchener, ON. I've seen the Mohawk lac for sale through a Mississauga
company. I've also used the stuff Lee Valley sells in spray cans -
useful for those of us without spay equipment! I was pleased with the
overall results, just didn't like the funes.
Any idea where to lay hands on the Target Coatings products in
Ontario? Thanks to Dave as well for passing on the Target info!
Charles
Kevin Hall
were good to deal with and fast. Found 'em on the net.
KH
"GarageGuitar" <charle...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:13813dfe-cb65-4a0a...@f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
GarageGuitar
> I had my Target waterborne stuff shipped from a distributor in BC. They
> were good to deal with and fast. Found 'em on the net.
>
Thanks. Found them at www.waterborne.ca