How to spot a fake Martin?
Randy MacKenna
I'm a "strat guy", so I'm very confident in my ability to evaluate a
vintage strat, for authenticity. I haven't dealt with too many
Martins, however. The person selling it spent some time in the
military, in the far east -- so this guitar could have easily been a
"bring home" from the Orient.
I'm a little worried about looking at this Martin. I know enough to
id the wood species on the guitar, and to check the headstock label
and impressed model/serial number inside the guitar -- but if it is a
fake, it could be "good enough" to pass those remedial checks.
I plan on bringing my digital camera, extra lighting, and dental
inspection mirror. I won't make an offer on this guitar until I've
had a day or two to go over the information I collect when looking at
it tonight. I also don't really want to get an outside appraiser
involved, if possible. It'll just complicate the deal.
Can anyone give me an extended set of things to look at, when
examining the guitar? Are there any good websites, showing
architectural details of early 1960's Martin D-28s?
Thanks,
Randy
hobart xaxinojo
http://www.themomi.org/museum/articles/Dreadnoughts/Frets_Mart_Dread_Story.html
"Randy MacKenna" <randym...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3fc97b9f.0406...@posting.google.com...
Colin Irvine
MacKenna) squeezed out the following:
>Tonight, I'm going to go look at a 1962 Martin D-28. Private sale.
>I'm a "strat guy", so I'm very confident in my ability to evaluate a
>vintage strat, for authenticity. I haven't dealt with too many
>Martins, however. The person selling it spent some time in the
>military, in the far east -- so this guitar could have easily been a
>"bring home" from the Orient.
>
>I'm a little worried about looking at this Martin. I know enough to
>id the wood species on the guitar, and to check the headstock label
>and impressed model/serial number inside the guitar -- but if it is a
>fake, it could be "good enough" to pass those remedial checks.
I don't think appearance is the best criterion.
If it's a good enough fake to not only to look like, but to feel and
sound like a good Martin should, then it's probably worth buying
anyway. If it isn't, then it's not worth buying even if it's a Martin.
--
Colin Irvine
http://www.colin.irvine.dsl.pipex.com/
Inyo
>From: randym...@yahoo.com (Randy MacKenna)
>Message-ID: <3fc97b9f.0406...@posting.google.com>
>Tonight, I'm going to go look at a 1962 Martin D-28. Private sale.
>I'm a little worried about looking at this Martin.
>I plan on bringing my digital camera, extra lighting, and dental
>inspection mirror.
Personally, I also prefer to use a dental inspection mirror on a guitar when
trying to decide whether to purchase a specific instrument. That way, you can
more advantageously figure out just how much of a bite the guitar will take out
of your wallet.
I know, I know. Somebody stop me...I'm out of control...
Seriously, considering all of the doubts you already have voiced regarding the
provenance of the D-28, my personal recommendation--unless quality of sound is
so uniquely extraordinary that you must go through the arduous paces to
pronounce it definitively authentic, I would advise you to look elsewhere for a
used D-28.
"Deep Night"--my solo, acoustic, instrumental 6-string guitar arrangement of a
Rudy Vallee song from 1929
http://members.aol.com/geowrs/music/deepnight.html
paul asbell
>>Tonight, I'm going to go look at a 1962 Martin D-28. Private sale.
>>I'm a "strat guy", so I'm very confident in my ability to evaluate a
>>vintage strat, for authenticity. I haven't dealt with too many
>>Martins, however. The person selling it spent some time in the
>>military, in the far east -- so this guitar could have easily been a
>>"bring home" from the Orient.
>>
>>I'm a little worried about looking at this Martin. I know enough to
>>id the wood species on the guitar, and to check the headstock label
>>and impressed model/serial number inside the guitar -- but if it is a
>>fake, it could be "good enough" to pass those remedial checks.
>>
It's awfully rare to find an out-and-out "fake" as you're alluding to.
For one thing, building a modern replica of a '62 D-28 would involve
using some almost completely unavailable straight-grained Braz RW,
building a replica that would probably be worth a lot on its own, and
then distressing it credibly to look 40+ years old. Naaahhh... I
wouldn't worry too much about that, BUT...
If your concern is with somehow being "taken" monetarily/market
value-wise, then I'd turn your attention to
repair/modification/refinish/overspray issues. These are more likely to
come up w/ a '60's-era Martin than "fakery"- and they can take a fairly
trained eye to accurately assess.
Finally- if you've played enough older Martin D's to know what you're
looking for, and what a "good 'un" sounds like... then let your ears be
the main deciding factor, IMO.
>>
>>
Paul
Paul Asbell
www.paulasbell.com
Randy MacKenna
> try this for some history :
>
> http://www.themomi.org/museum/articles/Dreadnoughts/Frets_Mart_Dread_Story.html
>
>
Thanks! That did help. I also found this site, which was very good:
http://www.provide.net/~cfh/martin.html
I did look at the guitar tonight. Here's what I found:
1. It is a 1969, pre 254xxx serial number - so it looked to be
Brazilian rosewood (this is a big plus).
2. No structural repairs, no cracks.
3. The neck was straight. The action was a teeny bit low, but a
saddle adjustment should take care of that. No buzzing frets at all.
4. Clearly had a recent re-fret job. The job was mechanically well
done, but when viewing the neck from the side, it's obvious that the
frets were redone (you can see the filing/sanding marks).
5. Plastic nut. I'm not sure, but it didn't appear to be something
that was originally on the guitar.
6. The pickguard (black plastic) is correct for the year -- but it
has either shrunk or it had been replaced. I'm thinking it was
replaced, because there is no clear finish over it, and it is a good
1/8" smaller all the way around (you can see the footprint of the old
pickguard underneath it).
7. There was a 3/8" hole drilled into the guitar near the bottom
strap peg, where a pickup had been inserted at one time.
8. Tuners, headstock, binding, back strip, inside back brace, company
name, logos, etc. all look to be 100% correct.
9. The soundboard top has a good amount of wear - like from years of
someone's fingers resting outside the pickguard. The surface grain of
the wood is also raised up a bit, just south of the bridge (it is
"rough" feeling, if run your fingertips over it. Overall,
cosmetically, I'd rate the it to be about 8/10
10. (most important!) It feels and plays great. Feels like an old
baseball mit, and it really sings.
So...what would be a good price for this 1969 Brazilian rosewood
Martin D-28, given all the points I listed above? There is no way
this guitar is in "excellent" condition, I'd say it's "good" to
"fair". Also, I don't know how the non-original nut, pickguard and
re-fret would affect the value of the guitar?
I'm new here, so thanks in advance for your advice. I do hope to
return the favor, if given the chance.
-Randy
Ty Ford
(in article <3fc97b9f.04061...@posting.google.com>):
I'm only repeating what someone told me when I told them about my D28S from
around 1971.
I apparently missed the Brazillian Rosewood by months. Had I bought earlier,
they said it would now be worth $8k. So mine's only worth $4k.
Regards,
Ty Ford
-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at http://home.comcast.net/~tyreeford
Joe McNamara
around 1971.
I apparently missed the Brazillian Rosewood by months. Had I bought earlier,
they said it would now be worth $8k. So mine's only worth $4k. >><BR><BR>
Don't feel so bad. You missed it by a couple years, and the guitar is STILL
worth a ton more than it sold for in 1971.
Best
joe
Wayne Harrison
> "hobart xaxinojo" <xaxi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<XZCdnVJRk9W...@comcast.com>...
> > try this for some history :
> >
> >
http://www.themomi.org/museum/articles/Dreadnoughts/Frets_Mart_Dread_Story.h
tml
> >
> >
>
> Thanks! That did help. I also found this site, which was very good:
>
> http://www.provide.net/~cfh/martin.html
>
> I did look at the guitar tonight. Here's what I found:
>
> 1. It is a 1969, pre 254xxx serial number - so it looked to be
> Brazilian rosewood (this is a big plus).
(snip)
> So...what would be a good price for this 1969 Brazilian rosewood
> Martin D-28, given all the points I listed above? There is no way
> this guitar is in "excellent" condition, I'd say it's "good" to
> "fair". Also, I don't know how the non-original nut, pickguard and
> re-fret would affect the value of the guitar?
>
> I'm new here, so thanks in advance for your advice. I do hope to
> return the favor, if given the chance.
i have a '69 d28, braz, that i bought, new, 35 years ago. i took it for
a checkup when i got back into playing about a year ago, and our local
dealer offered me $4k for it. the condition is very similar to that which
you described, save for the fact that mine hasn't been changed in any
fashion.
i doubt you will see many offers at the 8k level, unless the guitar is
in mint condition, and you are dealing with a very wealthy kid down in
bluegrass country.
wayne harrison
Ty Ford
(in article <20040616061226...@mb-m28.aol.com>):
Thanks Joe,
The other good news is that it looks great, plays really well and sounds
good.
Regards,
Ty
Randy MacKenna
Anyone have any idea what the guitar I described should price at? No
way is it worth $8K -- that's almost 2x the "book" for an instrument
in "excellent - original" condition.
I was hoping to get some feedback about how to figure out the price
based on the condition issues I mentioned in my original append...
-Randy
Larry Pattis
MacKenna <randym...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'll estimate somewhere between $2500 and $3500......I would be
reticent to pay much more than $3K for the guitar as described.
--
Larry Pattis
LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
Guitar Odyssey
http://www.LarryPattis.com
Cyberserf
My estimate is about $4500-$5250 Cnd. So...$3-4K US. Pickguard curling is
normal, as is refret, but it sounds kinda sloppy (you can see the marks?
Yuck!). The plastic nut is a no brainer (as are any bizarre bridge pins or
saddles...so long as the slot is not modified). Structurally, you should
examine the braces with a light and mirror (shine the light behind the
braces to check for leakage). Also check the bridge plate...they get chewed
up. Finally, some examinatino of the kerfing and binding (cracks in the
binding side/top/back finish betray movement due to yhumidity maltreatment.
Look at the neck angle (straightedge to the bridge should ride close to the
top of the bridge...up to a 1/32nd below or above but no more). The End pin
PU jack hole isn't a problem, butv you can take a good $500 off for that. I
would be a bit concerned about the wood fur on the south side of the
bridge...could be moisture cause by a bridge being reglued (the heat and
humidity is used to remove the old bridge and if the caul is not large
enough, the damage can manifest itself). So....a wee bit of suspicion about
the bridge, but regardless, if it sounds nice and plays well, $4500Cnd would
be a decent price...braz, hond or Indian Rose aside.
Cheers, CS
--
---
The opinions, comments, and advice offered by me, are mine alone.
As such, they carry as much weight as a feather in a snow storm.
Gear Page at: http://www3.sympatico.ca/cybrserf/Gear/Gear.htm
Randy MacKenna
<snip>
Thanks for your help, and thanks to the other nice folks who answered
my question. I'm thinking that the sloppy fret job might be able to
be cleaned up by a competent tech. At least the fret job was done
well, in terms of the height of the frets. You're right about the nut
and the pins...I can always replace them with the "real thing".
I'm going to go back again in a couple of days to look at the guitar
again. I'll take a really good look at the wood near the bridge, as
you suggested.
One last question: When I ran my hand across the top of the guitar,
just south of the bridge, I noticed that the top of the guitar was not
*perfectly* flat. It arches up a bit near the bridge. Are these
Martins supposed to be perfectly "flat topped"? Or, is it normal for
a slight arch in the top of the guitar, near the bridge? If not, then
is this an indication that the bridge is "pulling up" the surface of
the guitar, and there's a bracing problem underneath?
-Randy
paul asbell
Randy MacKenna wrote:
>...
>
>One last question: When I ran my hand across the top of the guitar,
>just south of the bridge, I noticed that the top of the guitar was not
>*perfectly* flat. It arches up a bit near the bridge. Are these
>Martins supposed to be perfectly "flat topped"? Or, is it normal for
>a slight arch in the top of the guitar, near the bridge? If not, then
>is this an indication that the bridge is "pulling up" the surface of
>the guitar, and there's a bracing problem underneath?
>
>-Randy
>
>
I suspect you'll get other opinions on this... this is indeed one where
opinions vary... but many folks will agree that a bit of 'belly" is
inevitable in ANY good-sounding, not overly built and braced flattop
guitar.
Lutherie is generally an art of striking the "perfect" compromise
between rigid structural strength (which can be achieved, but will lack
optimal tone) and toneful, sensitive, woody responsiveness (which
sometimes is achieved at the expense of long-term structural stability).
Generally, getting the tradeoff "right" will mean that over time, the
string tension WILL pull the top into a bit of belly as you described.
Many experienced players who have a taste for older Martins (Norman
Blake, for one) want to see more than a bit of belly, as they feel that
a guitar built to sound good will have a fair amount of it.
Usually, the belly that occurs will go just "so far", and no further.
It's possible at a later date that this will necessitate a neck reset,
to get the instrument back to optimal playing action, as it was
originally. Usually, once the reset is done, the owner has a stable,
good-sounding instrument that won't need further work for a good long while.
However, it must be said that it's POSSIBLE that there is a loose brace
in the guitar in question, causing or at least aggravating the belly.
It's always a good idea to have an experienced tech or luthier look over
a vintage guitar, prior to purchase. There are quite a few things
involved in purchasing an older Martin or similar acoustic that affect
value, longevity, etc that one tends to learn only thru a lot of experience.
Good luck!
Paul
Paul Asbell
www.paulasbell.com
Randy MacKenna
<snip>
Thanks so much for that insight, Paul. This is my first exposure to a
vintage Martin, so I appreciate the help. I'd say that the amount of
'belly' south of the bridge is just about or slightly less than 1/8"
in height, compared to the flat part of the rest of the top of the
guitar. I'll get to check that out again when I see the guitar in a
couple of days.
-Randy
Cyberserf
> "Cyberserf" <nospam....@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:<2r1Ac.23271$nY.8...@news20.bellglobal.com>...
>
>
> One last question: When I ran my hand across the top of the guitar,
> just south of the bridge, I noticed that the top of the guitar was not
> *perfectly* flat. It arches up a bit near the bridge. Are these
> Martins supposed to be perfectly "flat topped"?
No, they do belly a bit over time (or I should say, the can get pregnant
behind the bridge and dip in front of it (near the soundhole)). However, so
long as the bracing (X-braces and fingers) underneath appears good (e.g.
there is no light bleeding from the joint when you shine a small bulb behind
the brace), it can be a simply top deformation....the more pressing concern
for me is that you describe this hump as "fur". Fur in wood means raised
grains, raised grains in a localized area of an otherwise pristine top seems
to indicate some previous damage. Perhaps the bridge had seperated and been
reapplied, perhaps it has been shaven. Barring a complte history, you best
bet is to take it into a warranty shop and get their assessment.
Or, is it normal for
> a slight arch in the top of the guitar, near the bridge? If not, then
> is this an indication that the bridge is "pulling up" the surface of
> the guitar, and there's a bracing problem underneath?
>
Some bellying is to be expected in a working instrument of this vintage.
However, if is beginning to affect the break angle of the string over the
saddle (into the pinholes), or if it is causing unacceptably high action
around the 12th fret, this *may* be a warning sign that a neck reset is in
the guitars near future....check your braces, check your bridge plate...if
all is well and things have stabilized, this could all be for naught.
Cheers, CS
-