Collings or Santa Cruz?
Jemsul
Hi, Jimmy
I just bought a Collings D1A and a Collings OM1. I had played a friend's Santa
Cruz (TR model) which felt and sounded great, but had been hearing more and
more about structural problems with the Santa Cruz's. My friend who owned the
SC bought a couple of Collings' and he reluctantly sold the SC. He loved the
sound of the SC, and he wasn't aware of any structural problems - he just felt
the Collings sound and setup were perfect for him. Unfortunately, I recently
heard that the guitar he sold has developed a buzz, which may be the beginning
of some real problems for it's new owner. I think most of the Santa Cruz's are
probably fine, and if you bought one, you'd probably have a fantastic
instrument. But with a Collings, you don't take a chance. Structurally, they're
sturdier, without sacrificing any tone or volume, and they're notorious for
consistency. It would be very unusual to get a hold of a Collings lemon.
My new Collings' are both dream guitars; perfect setup, perfect balance,
incredible tone and unbelievable volume. The OM (though smaller) is louder than
my other two dreadnaughts (a Martin SPDC16TR and a Taylor Dan Crary model).
I'll be selling my old guitars to justify the Collings purchases, although I
had entertained the thought of keeping the Martin, as I had grown pretty
attached to it. But having had the Collings' for a month or so, it's evident
that the Martin won't get played in this house. I spent a little more for the
Collings' than I did for the Martin or Taylor, but I don't think I'll ever have
to buy another guitar.
One more thing. I shopped around on the internet and found the best prices at
Gryphon Music in Menlo Park, CA.
Good luck with your purchase.
jem
SteveYetter
Robert Marsden wrote:
>
> I'd like to get people's opinions about these two makers. I know they
> both make amazing guitars, but what makes them different.
Hi Robert,
Collings is a smaller shop in Texas. I think they're both amazing brands. Dick
Hoover (SCGC) has a bigger operation, but the quality of either is just amazing.
And why is
> it that most people tell me to go with Collings?
Not sure really. The ones I've seen are great alright, but a bit more expensive.
Also, who really
> believes this is Martin's "second golden era"?
I actually think the "golden era" is in the flat-top genre right now, across many
brands. Great playing and sounding flat-top guitars are in demand, competitive,
and dialed in.
My feeling is that Martin optimized flat-top design in the 1930's. Lots of people
discovered those older Martins, and a market developed to meet the demand.
Now, with makers like Breedlove, Goodall, and many others trying to be
innovative and provide the most sound for the money, and other features, the
playibility, value, and quality control of the present offerings is great.
And how do the new
> Martins compare to these two makers.
Martin is competitive. They have a proven track record. I like Martins a lot, even
though I'm presently playing a Gibson. I like Santa Cruz guitars a lot too.
Breedloves are really neat, and Tacoma is in the hunt.
Richard Gellis, of Union Grove, here in Santa Cruz, showed me his presentation
grade Taylor spruce/koa guitar on Fri. Just amazing!
This truly is the second golden age of flat-tops. Wish I was able to collect, I'd
wind up with all new ones! Definitely a Santa Cruz: "OM," and a "vintage D."
Happy hunting,
Steve Yetter
> Jimmy Marsden
SBoyke
>Jimmy Marsden wrote:
>I'd like to get people's opinions about these two makers. I know
>they both make amazing guitars, but what makes them different. And
>why is it that most people tell me to go with Collings? Also, who
>really believes this is Martin's "second golden era"? And how do
>the new Martins compare to these two makers.
Both SC and Collings make wonderful instruments. I can't remember ever hearing
any negative comments on either brand.
I would give the nod to Collings for traditional (rosewood/spruce,
mahog/spruce) dreadnaughts destined for flatpicking (with the possible
exception of SC's D12 model, the Norman Blake one). I would give the nod to SC
for fingerstyle instruments (such as their OM, F or H models), particularly
with non-traditional wood combinations (e.g., maple/german spruce, koa/cedar,
walnut/englemann).
There are very few other makers that can match or rival Collings in the
dreadnaught arena. There are several (maybe numerous) makers that compare
favorably with or rival SC or Collings with other body styles/wood combinations
for fingerstylists. Many of these makers (e.g., Olson, Goodall) are in the
same general price range. Many others (e.g., David Webber, John Sullivan) cost
considerably less. Generally, these builders have less overhead and don't
"ornate-up" the instrument, concentrating on a more plain aesthetic with the
best sound (that particular maker) can produce.
Another group of makers (e.g., Larrivee, Taylor, Martin) produce relatively
inexpensive guitars with very respectible sound and workmanship, definitely
good value.
If your interest in flatpicking, you can't go wrong with Collings. If your
interest is fingerstyle, I would suggest a somewhat different approach, in the
following order:
1) Determine what wood combination(s) speak to your soul (regardless of
brand of maker). Try the following combinations (at a minimum):
- rosewood with sitka spruce
- rosewood with englemann spruce
- rosewood with sitkared western cedar
- mahogany with sitka
- mahogany with cedar
- koa with cedar
- koa with sitka spruce
- walnut with cedar
- walnut with englemann spruce
- maple with german spruce
- maple with cedar
2) You would need to be in guitar heaven to be able to try all these
combinations on various body styles, but these body styles should be checked
out in several of the above combinations:
- OM
- OOO
- mini-jumbo
3) Now begin to think guitar maker, considering (mostly) the sound you
heard from your search.
In my case I spent about a year playing all the above wood combinations in
several body styles. I ended up choosing two guitars: a David Webber Koa/Cedar
in his Webber body (kinda a deep OM/quaisi-000) and a Santa Cruz F German
Maple/German Spruce: two very different sounding instruments which compliment
each other very nicely. I'm planning soon to get a third, probably an OM
rosewood/englemann.
There is no one guitar to suit all players or styles. For me the only
solution is several instruments.
--
SBo...@AOL.com
Larry Pattis
In article <3542EDB9...@earthlink.com>, Robert Marsden
<Goo...@earthlink.com> wrote:
> <HTML>
> I'd like to get people's opinions about these two makers. I know
> they both make amazing guitars, but what makes them different. And
> why is it that most people tell me to go with Collings? Also, who
> really believes this is Martin's "second golden era"? And how do
> the new Martins compare to these two makers.
> <BR>Jimmy Marsden</HTML>
Jimmy,
I have read several replies to your question...at least a couple of these
responses are quite innaccurate. Santa Cruz & Collings produce about the
same number of guitars from about the same sized operation. Santa Cruz
*absolutely* does not have any kind of reputaion for problems with their
guitars down the road. Collings is *not* a *sure thing*, as I have noted
major tonal differences between identical models.
BOTH build great guitars, the choice is a tonal toss up, with *you* being
the only relevant judge.
Martin's GE & VR guitars are every bit as good as the small shop guitars,
IMO, admittedly based on a relatively small sample population compared to
my experience with those small shop guitars. They don't sound like a
Collings or a Santa Cruz of the same model....they sound like a Martin.
Again, your choice. Prices are comparable as well, with these guitars
starting at over $3K (full retail). YMMV in terms of actual street price.
For instance the 000-28 GE (12 fret model) retails for more than either
SC's or Collings similar guitar, but it is discounted more...end result is
that the street price is about the same.
The average Martin (standard model...full retail up to the lo-2K range) do
not perform as well as the GE & VR's, and are more comparable in quality (I
said quality, not *qualities*) to the other high-end mass produced builder,
Taylor....both of whom build fine values for any given price range.
Larry Pattis
Larry Pattis
In article <35436680...@earthlink.com>, Robert Marsden
<Goo...@earthlink.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you so much for your replys. Do you know of any playability
> differences between Collings and Santa Cruz. Many people are
> telling me
> that Collings are more user friendly. Is this true?
No, this is not true. Each one is just as likely to be easy or difficult
to set-up, depending on your playing requirements.
And
> they both make
>
>roughly the same amount of guitars a year?
If anything, Collings may be producing slightly more than Santa Cruz, I
don't have the exact numbers.
Do you think
> that one, in
>the future, will be more collectable than the other?
No one can predict this, however Collings is in more demand right now (and
for a variety of interesting reasons, IMO, that I won't go into here). Old
Martin & Gibson guitars are "collectible" now because they have a tendency
to sound great & to have distinct "personalities." Also, like the saying
goes about land in the real estate industry, they aren't making any more
pre-war Martins; that is, a brand new guitar that sounds exactly like what
some consider to be the holy grail of sounds. You'll just have to wait a
while for *any* new guitar to have a 30 year old broken in sound. I think
Al Sato said that he didn't have time to wait 30 years for a new guitar to
sound great, so he tends to own older instruments that already sound
*great*. 25 years from now I suspect that current SC & Collings guitars
will also sound great (even better than they do now, and in their own
unique ways) and therefore have their own "following" of interested
collectors. And when I say "collectible", I mean great tone, not to just
own a rare guitar for it's collectible value. Do you want to own a guitar
that sounds great, or one that has a significant re-sale value? They may
be one in the same, but maybe not, for instance, I own a 1967 Brazilian
Rosewood Bozo that beats the pants off any 1960's D-28, yet it is worth
less in the "vintage" arena. Also, I personally own the first Breedlove
ever built, number 90-001. This guitar may or may not be worth a lot of $
right now...or in the future. Again, this is impossible to predict.
Larry Pattis
dor...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net
Larry Pattis has surprised me a bit, in that he states he has heard
"major tonal differences" within particular Collings models. One thing
I've noticed in playing a boatload of Collings dreadnoughts, and
owning two, is the consistency of tone and volume in Collings guitars.
They are much more consistent than Martins, for example, which I
suppose is understandable given the difference in sheer volume of
guitars produced every year. And Larry, you have to tell us why you
think Collings are in vogue right now- I would assume because of build
quality and sound quality, which is why I bought Collings twice.
Regards, Dorin Luck
Larry Pattis
In article <3543b25e...@news.campus.mci.net>,
dor...@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net wrote:
I guess I was being a bit cryptic about those "major tonal
differences"...I've never met a Collings I didn't like, but I have heard
great guitars and then some tremendous, unbelievably great guitars by them.
Same goes for Santa Cruz. So there is quite a bit of variability...on the
up side, however!
My beliefs as to why Collings are more popular than Santa Cruz is really a
subjective thing, and I am admitting that I have no facts to support this
little idea of mine...just a feeling, based on what I believe is a *very*
comparable quality of their guitars (high quality, that is). I lived up in
Montana (and Seattle) for several years, and California-bashing is truly a
high art in those places (no, I don't approve). At the same time, it seems
to me that "all things Texan" are regarded as too cool (pretty much
everywhere, from what I can tell), especially in the world of music.
Simple as that. I believe that if Collings and Santa Cruz were to simply
switch locations (and names) the popularity would be reversed. No, I am
not currently on any medication, it's just a little theory that I have.
Larry Pattis
Norman Draper
Jimmy,
I may have something to add. I'm fortunate enough to own a gaggle of
Santa Cruz and Collings (Martins, too, but let's concentrate on these for
now). Here is my take on the two.
They are both of the highest structural quality imaginable. The fit and
finish is as good as I have seen in any consumer product, although that's
hardly how I think of them.
With the exception of one from each maker that is Brazilian, on any
given day any one of the remaining number is my favorite. It might be my
mood, the age of the strings, the way the sunburst looks, how guilty I'm
feeling about spending this much money on guitars, or some other
unconsidered factor. OM, Dred, 12 Fret D, rosewood, mahogany, sitka,
Adirondack- they all sound wonderful to my ear.
Which to go with? Get to Acoustic Roots (you're welcome, Larry!) in
Jenkintown, PA, or another small piece of heaven and settle in for several
long, wonderful afternoons of sublime torture. Try everything; ignore
nothing.
Among the everything you should try are Martins. It's not for nothing
that they have their reputation. There is a D-18VRS in the waiting room at
the factory that is the equal of anything made (at a comparable level) by
the other folks. I have an HD-28 that is really a pleasure....
It's time to stop. Have a great time selecting what may well be your
second most important companion. Let us know how things work out.
Norman
norbert sharp
My recent trip to Dusty Strings and A# Music in Seattle really taught me
a lesson in not paying too much attention to the opinions of others and
to base my choice on my ears and not those of others.
I played 3 Collings, 3 Taylors and 2 Lowdens and was most disappointed
in the sound of all of the Collings guitars. Yes, they looked beautiful
but didn't sound anywhere near as good as the S32 Lowden which was my
favourite.
A# had 5 or 6 Santa Cruz guitars in and if finish work would be my only
basis for making a choice I would give Santa Cruz the nod in this
department. Their OM and H models sounded just superb: not just a
little bit better then the Collings but a WHOLE LOT BETTER.
You really have to play the guitars on your shortlist. Let others play
them while you listen and don't make your final decision until you have
played and listened to the guitars with new sets of identical strings
installed.
Good luck
BERT
*****************************
Robert Marsden wrote:
>
> I'd like to get people's opinions about these two makers. I know they
> both make amazing guitars, but what makes them different. And why is
> it that most people tell me to go with Collings? Also, who really
> believes this is Martin's "second golden era"? And how do the new
> Martins compare to these two makers.
> Jimmy Marsden
Frank & Kim Basile
Norman Draper wrote:
> Among the everything you should try are Martins. It's not for nothing
>that they have their reputation. There is a D-18VRS in the waiting room at
>the factory that is the equal of anything made (at a comparable level) by
>the other folks.
I know the exact guitar you're talking about! I took a trip to the factory
in Nazareth in February. While the wife & daughter & I were waiting for the
tour to begin I took that guitar down, not really expecting to like it. I
was floored! Nothing else in the room even came close. I assumed that
since it was in the waiting room at the factory that it wasn't for sale but
I've been thinking about that guitar ever since.
Frank Basile
Bob Cadman
RE: Re Collings or Santa Cruz
Remamber that the sound that you hear from a new guitar is not the sound
that you're going to hear from the guitar after it has been played for a
couple of years. The finest guitars that I've ever heard in music stores
have always been the used ones. I recently played a 4 year old Manzer
and 5 year old Laskin that were in a different league to the new
Lowdens, Taylors, Santa Cruz, Bourgeois, Breedlove,Goodalls and other
fine instruments that I've had the pleasure to play. They get sweeter
but keep the distinct character of their sound as they get played and
age. Go for the one that has the sound character that you need or
prefer. Remember as well that the stings are an important ingredient to
the sound a guitar produces. They are all superb instruments. I'd love
the chance to play an older Goodall or Breedlove but alas I don't have
any friends who own them and people find it hard to part with them so
its rare to see used ones.
Have any guitar makers out there tried maple back and sides with
a cedar top. I curious about your ideas on this combination. The guitar
will be a cutaway grand auditorium size with scalloped graphite
reinforced top bracing.
Bob
Capt Banjo
I played 3 Collings, 3 Taylors and 2 Lowdens and was most disappointed
in the sound of all of the Collings guitars. Yes, they looked beautiful
but didn't sound anywhere near as good as the S32 Lowden which was my
favourite.
I agree with your opinion regarding using your own judgement over the opinion
of us wise sages. I went to Mandolin Bros in New York expecting to leave with a
Taylor. I played some nice sounding Collins also. But in the end, a Santa Cruz
Tony Rice model was my choice. The playability was good. But the sound was
superb. Also, someone else mentioned the need to remember that used guitars
will generally sound 'better' than new ones. This is because they open up over
time and almost all new guitars sound better in a year or two. So, use the
knowledge of veterans, but (as Dylan said)" trust yourself" when it comes time
to take the plunge. May the force be with you.
Wayne
"I pick. Therefore, I am."
Hojo2X
Captain Banjo writes: >I played 3 Collings, 3 Taylors and 2 Lowdens and was
most disappointed >in the sound of all of the Collings guitars. Yes, they
looked beautiful >but didn't sound anywhere near as good as the S32 Lowden
which was my
>favourite.
My comment on this is that all three have distinctly different design
philosophies and distinctly different sounds. The Lowden has what I think of
as a "European" sound, the Taylor is a distinctly different, clean sound, and
the Collings is an "evolved Martin."
Of course, there will exceptions to this with individual instruments, and no
doubt someone will write in to tell us so. ("Man, you're so FULL OF IT - my
Collings sounds just like the best Ovation you ever heard, only it cost five
times as much, so it must be better, right?") But I think it's safe to say
that there are substansive differences between the three.
I like the Lowden well enough, but the ones I've played would not make good
backup instruments for fiddlers, for example.
All three of these makers put out very fine instruments Once you get into that
price range, you're going find that they are ALL superb - it just becomes a
question of how THIS particular guitar sounds compared to THAT particular
guitar. You will also find that some instruments will suit your music, your
playing style and your hands better than others.
So, while I don't like Lowdens well enough to go buy one, I'm glad they're on
the planet and I'm glad Mr. Lowden had the courage and vision to open a guitar
factory in a suburb of Belfast, Northern Ireland. While Martin and Gibson and
all the rest have their production problems, dealing with terrorists and the
murderous "hard men" of the various Irish political factions is not one of
them.
Moving back to a previous post, Bob Chatman wrote:
>Have any guitar makers out there tried maple back and sides >with a cedar top.
I curious about your ideas on this combination. >The guitar will be a cutaway
grand auditorium size with scalloped >graphite reinforced top bracing.
I think you could have a very fine guitar built out of these woods. I haven't
heard a guitar with this combination, but a few years ago I had Bob Baker at
Blue Lion Musical Instruments build me a mountain dulcimer with them.
The cedar gives it warmth and a nice bass response, and the maple adds
brightness and clarity.
You'll definately want to string it with light strings only - my 12 fret Triple
O, which I had made with koa back and sides and a cedar top, failed because it
was just strung too heavily with mediums.
Wade Hampton Miller
Art Edelstein
I recently acquired a used SC OM built in 1988. The guitar was pristine
and I am now using it for both flatpicking and fingerstyle. I love the
neck and the sound which is BIG for such a small guitar. It is very well
made. But beyond this I've found Richard Hoover a real nice guy. The
original tuners needed replacing and he sold me better ones at cost and
will pay for their replacement. This on a used guitar! The man stands
behind his instruments which is very important in this day and age.
Taylors, my other guitars, are also well backed by the company.
I prefer to go with companies that go the extra mile.
Art
--
Art Edelstein RR1 Box 83 East Calais VT 05650
Homepage @ http://www.sover.net/~arte/
Bits & Bytes Internet Column http://www.caledonian-record.com/
"Despite The Cost Of Living Have You Noticed How It Remains So Popular!"
Shrike
We have owned Collings and Santa Cruz guitars, and I must say that the
Collings guitars are set up so perfectly IMHO that you might not ever want
to play another guitar. The Santa Cruz 12-fret D that we had was a
different beast, I suppose, because of the 1-7/8" wide neck. It was not as
comfortable to play as any of our Collings. We have a Collings 000-1A
12-fret with a 1-13/16" neck width and a D1A with a 1-3/4" neck. We just
sold a D2HaaA Braz./Adirondack with a 1-3/4" wide neck and the all the
Collings play GREAT. The Santa Cruz had a tone I've never heard anywhere
else (it was Indian RW/Sitka.) We sold it because neither of us sing and it
needs to be played by a singer. Also, the Santa Cruz was not comfortable
for me to play at all, and my husband started to show symptoms of tendonitis
form playing it, so it went to another very good home. As to the number of
guitars each makes in a year, I don't know. I think Collings are destined
to become classics myself, but I think you need to buy a guitar because it
speaks to you and you will love it and want to play it every day, because it
enriches your life, not because you're thinking about how much you can sell
it for in the future.
Kim
Do you know of any playability
differences between Collings and Santa Cruz. Many people are telling me
that Collings are more user friendly. Is this true? And they both make
roughly the same amount of guitars a year? Do you think that one, in
the future, will be more collectable than the other?
Thanks again!
Jimmy
Shrike
Shrike
Shrike
Shrike
danielleom
Shrike
I have been playing a Santa Cruz OM for a few years now. The response seems
to be consistent regardless of where I play on the neck. I have not played
a Collings.
I do find the small cutatway Breedloves to be curious. I guess I am always
amazed at how much bass comes from such a tiny guitar. At the same time I
am not sure that this would appeal on a long term basis.
Danielle
Capt Banjo
I think you need to buy a guitar because it
speaks to you and you will love it and want to play it every day, because it
enriches your life, not because you're thinking about how much you can sell
it for in the future.
You're right. That's why I bought a Tony Rice Santa Cruz. (But I bet the resale
value is decent nonetheless.)
Wayne
Tim Phipps
Shrike wrote in message <6igfnl$9...@cobia.gulf.net>...
>We have owned Collings and Santa Cruz guitars, and I must say that the
>Collings guitars are set up so perfectly IMHO that you might not ever want
>to play another guitar. The Santa Cruz 12-fret D that we had was a
>different beast, I suppose, because of the 1-7/8" wide neck. It was not as
>comfortable to play as any of our Collings. We have a Collings 000-1A
>12-fret with a 1-13/16" neck width and a D1A with a 1-3/4" neck. We just
>sold a D2HaaA Braz./Adirondack with a 1-3/4" wide neck and the all the
>Collings play GREAT.
Since I just bought a D2-HaaA V with a 1 3/4" neck from someone named Kim, I
would find it rather surprising if you were not the same Kim! I still love
it--thanks for parting with it! The set up is perfect, and the intonation
is spot on--even better than my other Collings! I also have a Collings
000-12 with a German Spruce top that I love for fingerstyle. I have had it
2 years now and it has opened up amazingly.
How do your like your 000-1A and the D-1A? I'll admit, I was thinking about
the D-1A before I lost my head and bought the Brazillian :-)
Cheers,
Tim