Settings of double horn
Michael Gros
husband to a 40+ mother who plays french horn for about 25 years. I do
not play any instrument but I'm becomiong part of an argument in the
family about the way a horn has to be set/pitched.
The history: For almost two years our boy learned on a lended Bb horn in
poor condition. Now we bought him a used double horn, recommended by the
former horn teacher of my wife. Both teachers agree the horn is in good
condition and offers good value for money.
The horn originally was set in F (you had to pull the trigger to play in
Bb). Our boy's teacher now made him change the settings (he has to pull
the trigger to play in F).
My wife finds this wrong. She does it the other way around (pulls the
trigger to play in Bb). I would like to have professional help to solve
the case - probably even find a new teacher. Is there anybody out there
willing and able to help me/us?
Regards,
Michael Gros
PS: This is no april fool's joke, it's a serious question.
Jonathan West
There is no right way or wrong way about this, it is just a matter of
different preferences, sometimes strongly held by different people because
one way or the other is what they are used to.
The fact is that *either* way is possible, and horn manufacturers make the
thumb valve adjustable to enable it to be set according to taste.
Whichever way it is set, your son will get used to it in time.
--
Regards
Jonathan West
"Michael Gros" <michae...@mgros.com> wrote in message
news:3CA89BC4...@mgros.com...
Mark
the change to Bb. In other parts of the world the horn is oftentimes set in
Bb with the change valve to F.
Some horns like the Alexander 103 and Conn 10D and 11D models allow the
player to set the instrument as he or she chooses.
It is no big deal. Since the fact that you son started with a Bb single
instead of an F single, having the horn set in Bb makes sense. Purists out
there will no doubt make an issue of the fact that he Bb horn oriented and
may lack the characteristic horn (in F) tone color...this is not necessarily
the case.
Mark L.
Michael Gros
I guess this settles it, mother & son have accepted it and I have regained my
peace and quite (hopefully!).
Regards,
Michael
SoloCorno
I'm a professional hornist of 20+ years who prefers to play in Bb and flip the
trigger for F (or even in my case high f). It just comes down to personal
preference at that time and the experiences that bring you to that particular
junction.
...willie...
James Buchholz
horn in F, throw the valve to move to Bb. The problem here is that most teachers
and "most" professionals I have talked to on the hornlist prefer the player to be
in F key for the tone and move to Bb for ease in some lower range notes and the
high register. Many band directors like to move players to the Bb horn so they
have a high register lead horn in the shortest possible time. I (and many others)
do play on the F side as much as possible because of the sound. I have a Conn 8D
now but I started on a single F horn. Also at the same time as starting I played
a Single F descant which is a single horn in key of F BUT fingering an octave
lower than the normal F single. This gives even greater security on the high
range. But any way you slice it, in my mind's ear, the sound of the F side I
prefer to the Bb and descant F.
I vote with your wife. I hope the teacher is encouraging the f side for
the sound benefit. Also I find if I can play the higher range on the F side I can
for sure play better on the high Bb side. Tone placement was easier for me.
I met a lady in her 40s who said she played French horn in High School years
ago. I offered to have her relearn on my Single F. She said no, since she only
learned the Bb side of the double horn in school----what a waste.
jim buchholz
Jim Purcell
seen anyone set the "default" setting to anything but "F."
Jim Purcell
j...@jimpurcell.com
Jim Purcell
seen anyone set the "default" setting to anything but "F."
Jim Purcell
j...@jimpurcell.com
In article <3CA89BC4...@mgros.com>, mg...@gmx.de wrote:
Jim Purcell
seen anyone set the "default" setting to anything but "F."
Jim Purcell
j...@jimpurcell.com
In article <3CA89BC4...@mgros.com>, mg...@gmx.de wrote:
Mark
Europe it is not uncommon for the horn to be set in Bb which is the primary
reason Alexander offers that option. This is not a personal slam towards
you, but I too have played the horn for the last 40 years and even made some
money at it, and I have seen the horn set Bb/F .
Best wishes for continued success with the horn.
Mark L.
Ex-austinite
"Jim Purcell" <jimpu...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:jimpurcell-06...@12-248-8-146.client.attbi.com...
> I've played horn for the last 30 years, even made some money at it. Never
> seen anyone set the "default" setting to anything but "F."
>
> Jim Purcell
> j...@jimpurcell.com
>
Good for you, but just because you haven't seen it doesn't make it that way
for everyone else. Ever been outside the US? Plenty of Bb-first doubles
across the pond.
Also, posting something more than once doesn't make your opinion mean more.
Check your posting software.
James Buchholz
putting the setting on the double horn to Bb rather than F---His reply.
"You just described the main problem with horn players of all ages worldwide as it
is now. If the beginner starts on the Bb-side or on the single Bb-horn, it will be
extremely hard later to convince him or her to learn the F-fingerings (later).
Usually, they use the F-side only for the g1 (2nd line). They lose so many chances
to get a real help by the Bb-horn, so as to "push" in with the thumb trigger for -
let´s say - the first slur in Strauss no.1, just an example. They lose all the
chances to correct intonation by switching back & forth between Bb & F.
They will never experience the real beauty of the horn tone, the many colors in
the horn tone. ... They will not have any sound concept related to the true horn.
Impossible."
They will lose the chances for so many lip slurs, lip trills, riding on the
overtones. Seems, that these teachers, this sort of teachers, have never
experienced the advantage of both sides & still struggle with their horn to
produce the right notes. If that would count alone ?
And endurance related ? If they play a lot on the F-side, they develop more
endurance. In a demanding piece, if you play a lot on the F-side, well, getting
tired, you still have the Bb-side for emergency. If you start all on the Bb-side,
the F-side will not be any help, if the piece´s demand has made you tired.
Pass this on to the "teacher" involved & the young boy.
jim buchholz
.............................................
Mark
matter is that many German players use horns set in Bb/F. If you ever try a
horn set in Bb/F do the opening of the Strauss First, and while it may seem
awkward to you because you are not used to it,the effect is the same whether
you depress the thumb lever up or the thumb lever down. In other words, T1
to open, the effect is the same whether it is thumb forward or thumb back
and to say that players who start playing on the Bb side are doomed to have
an inferior sound is downright ludicrous. It all depends on the training and
the teaching. It shouldn't matter how the double horn is set to acquire the
technique that Hans is talking about. A sloppy player will play everything
possible on the Bb side of the horn even if the horn is set F/Bb. It is all
in the teaching.
One major complaint that I have regarding most F singles made today by most
major manufacturers is that they are simply dreadful to play. Jim if you
have ever played on a pre-world War II Schmidt, Kruspe, or Alexander single
F as I have, then Han's argument makes more sense. I found the two Vienna
horns that I have had the opportunity to play on to be extremely responsive.
I recently acquired a piston valve Reynolds Military Model Single F circa
1943 and it is a wonderfully responsive horn. I had a friend of mine who is
an active professional try it and she was amazed. I plan to use the horn
this summer for some outdoor concerts I have to play in, so I am not
anti-single F.
I do think, however, that there is an inherent danger in becoming dogmatic
and I also feel that it is very dangerous to generalize. Technique is
technique regardless of how your horn is set and you have to learn it, there
are no shortcuts.
Without trying to denigrate Han's position in the horn world, I would point
out that he is not actively engaged as a regular teacher of the horn. His
title of Professor is one that is granted by the State of Bavaria in
recognition of his achievement as an artist not because of an affiliation
with any hochschule fur musik. He is a superlative artist, and an important
person in the world of the horn but he has never spent one day intimately
involved with the American Music Education system. You may recall that
Philip Farkas advocated the use of single Bb horns to high horn players
playing in school ensembles in those situations where the double horn was
not an affordable option.
I would think that in the specific case that generated this thread, that
since the boy's mother is a horn player, she will monitor his progress and
ensure that he receives the proper training on both sides of the double
horn. If it is really a big deal, then the horn should be easily modified to
allow it to set in F/Bb.
Jim, I have always admired your many observations and posts to the Elmhurst
Horn List, but this time to run and get Hans to back you up on one list so
you can put in on another list is a bit disappointing. You are enough of a
horn player and a person in your own right that you should be able to stand
on your own two feet to present your argument. I have no quarrel with you
and I have no quarrel with Hans, but frankly I think if you wanted someone's
opinion you would be better advised to get Paul Mansur's or Wilbert
Kimple's. They are American horn educators. They might end up agreeing with
Hans, I don't know, but they understand horn playing in the context of
American music education, Hans does not. Also too the original scenario as
presented was unique, I think.
Mark L.
"James Buchholz" <buch...@acegroup.cc> wrote in message
news:3CB08DA0...@acegroup.cc...
Ex-austinite
> Without trying to denigrate Han's position in the horn world, I would
point
> out that he is not actively engaged as a regular teacher of the horn. His
> title of Professor is one that is granted by the State of Bavaria in
> recognition of his achievement as an artist not because of an affiliation
> with any hochschule fur musik. He is a superlative artist, and an
important
> person in the world of the horn but he has never spent one day intimately
> involved with the American Music Education system. You may recall that
> Philip Farkas advocated the use of single Bb horns to high horn players
> playing in school ensembles in those situations where the double horn was
> not an affordable option.
Since you *are* denigrating Hans Pizka as well as someone who respects his
work, your qualifiations are ... ? And the fact that he is not "intimately
involved with the American Music Education system" adds exactly what
relevance to this thread?
Mark
Well, I am not denigrating Hans Pizka's work at all. Hans Pizka has not only
performed impeccably as solo horn with the Bavarian State Opera for many
years, continues to serve on the IHS Advisory Council, and has done much to
examine performance practice in the past, his work regarding Mozart and the
horn is soon to be out. I have a high confidence level that it will be a
significant contribution to the horn world and I am on the list to purchase
a copy. Are you ?
Hans is an extremely opinionated fellow who has both his advocates and his
detractors. The problem, of course, is when someone disagrees with an
"expert" then they don't know what they are talking about. There is a group
of horn players who subscribe to the Elmhurst list who absorb every word the
man says, they are usually younger players. There is another group who
thoroughly detest everything he writes even if it has merit, and oftentimes
it does have merit. I am in the middle group. I respect his standing in the
horn world, but I don't necessarily agree with everything he says.
Apparently you feel that anyone who does not have his standing must
immediately kow tow and subordinate their views. In this particular
instance, it is unfortunate I think, that Jim went to the Elmhurst hornlist
cast his line out, and got Hans to respond, and then used Han's response
(without his permission, I'll bet). Jim has many fine posts on the Elmhust
list, and I have respected his writing, so I was a little surprised by this.
I think, based on his previous writing that he is knowledgably enough about
the horn without having to use the opinions of someone else.
You asked for my credentials and background. I have no problem responding to
that, but will not pander to anyone who chooses to write and criticize me
under the cloak of anonymity. Hans has enough character and integrity that
he writes what he writes under his own name. Jim Bucholz has enough
character to write under his own name, I write under my own name. I will not
pander to the likes of someone who hides behind some internet handle. To me
it indicates a lack of character and integrity. If in the interest of
Internet privacy you elect to have a "nom de internet" write me privately at
mlout...@net1plus.com and identify yourself and I will be happy to share
my background with you publicly in this forum. I'm guessing that you are a
bit on the youthful side and that you must have resided in Texas at one time
and that you are argumentative (that's okay) and probably don't think for
yourself, but since I really don't know who my critic is, I should not, in
all fairness to you, jump to conclusions. I will defer sharing until I know
who you are, your background and where you are coming from. This is not an
unreasonable request, I do believe.
The fact that Hans is not intimately involved with American Music Education
or in music education at all is relevant as he frequently condemns those who
teach. Since we do not know how effective the boy's teacher is in the
particular instance cited, I don't think it is fair to condemn that teacher
out of hand simply because he started the boy on the Bb single horn and now
the boy has a chance to acquire a double horn that is set in Bb/F rather
than F/Bb. Not everyone starts beginners on the single F. Frankly, there is
no difference at all between a beginner starting on a single F and a
beginner starting on a single Bb. They sound the same. Where the Bb single
horn has the advantage, and on this point I agree with Farkas (even if
Farkas hadn't written one word on about the Bb single, I still would have my
opinion) on the advantages of the single Bb horn, is that the student can
master the basics with greater facility and ease. Nothing is more
frustrating than seeing young horn students trying to keep up with their
woodwind counterparts in a beginning mixed ensemble or band situation, and
they are already lagging behind their peers. The parts that they have to
play are boring enough, and I think many become frustrated with the horn and
leave it but would otherwise stick with it, if it were made a little easier.
This is where the single Bb can be advantageous. You must remember that the
goal of American Music Education is not to produce professional horn
players, but to provide students with an outlet for making music and hence
achieve greater self-expression, and to develop a life long appreciation for
music. The fact that the system overall, produces thousands of wonderful
horn players who go on to study in universities and conservatories every
year speaks well of it. Virtually all of the top players in the leading
symphony orchestras of the United States are American born and American
trained (yes I know that James Sommerville is Canadian) and are products of
our system.
In a perfect world, I would like to see everyone starting on the horn study
privately for a year before playing in any ensemble, and I would like to see
beginners starting on doubles or at least compensating doubles if weight is
a factor. But it is not a perfect world. Most kids are not going to get
private instruction, and many are not going to develop a good fundamental
horn sound regardless of what equipment they use. It is all in the teaching
and the student's willingness to learn.
Anyone who studies the horn and is serious about the horn is going to master
what Hans is talking about. Sound is first and foremost a mental concept and
to a large degree, in the context of my experience anyway, the pupil is
going to imitate the teacher. If the teacher is competent, then everything
will fall into place.
Mark L.
James Buchholz
coming in from a horn player in Leeds England. Both you and I both know Hans is
sometimes off-the-wall on some of his observations. But around me locally I see
to many shortcuts being taken by teachers (non-horn players at that) to get
instant. horn players. I came across a method book on horn playing in the local
music story by the way that gives horn history referrences and Hans Pizka is
mentioned with the notation that as far as history of the horn, his publication
listed is full of inaccuracies---I doubt if Hans will quote this text.
Sitting in on local USA midwest bands I see first-hand some of the beginning
youngsters technique. Around where I live, young players of the horn opt for
security on the horn unfortunately rather than the sound---and for that reason
alone they "choose to play" the Bb side of the horn. In front of their teachers
they may not do the same.. They also seem to ridgely adhere to the taught method
of some (non-horn) teachers that ALL the notes from 2nd line G# and up are to be
played on the Bb side and don't know the benefits of using the Bb side in the
mid-range of the horn when the horn "speaks better". But even beginners might be
fortunate enough to have a Mom who is also a horn player to tidy up loose ends
of the teacher; unfortunately some moms and dads don't know anything about horns
and go out and get their kids shiney "4 paddle Parrot horns".
While I am my own person when it comes to playing, practicing horn (as well
as other instruments), and have my training back in college in Music Ed with
Woodwind background, I am only impressed locally with the American music system
for horn training mostly when a horn player instructor does the teaching (some
exceptions of course). Teachers anywhere walk a fine-line to teach but not
discourage when instructing on the horn since it is considered a difficult
instrument. While the settings of the change valve is in reality for adults
insignificant---since horn playing involves personal choices and tradeoffs do
adults reset the valve when they run into a piece better played all the way
through on the Bb side? The answer of course is no. But for a beginner level
player the setting of the change valve I believe does send a message to those
not yet schooled in musical literature, that Bb is what you most of the time
want to play in on the horn. Most horn players I hope know that the classical
horn literature lends itself better to the F horn side and far as overtone
progression in the music as well as fingering (with exceptions).Everyone seems
to want to be 1st horn player in the high range. Few high school players around
where I live aspire to be 2nd horn (or 4th horn players) for long. When you say
" the original scenario as presented was unique, I think." I hope you are right.
While I hope, I don't see the uniqueness around where I live.
jim buchholz
Mark wrote:
> > let愀 say - the first slur in Strauss no.1, just an example. They lose all
> the
> > chances to correct intonation by switching back & forth between Bb & F.
> >
> > They will never experience the real beauty of the horn tone, the many
> colors in
> > the horn tone. ... They will not have any sound concept related to the
> true horn.
> > Impossible."
> >
> > They will lose the chances for so many lip slurs, lip trills, riding on
> the
> > overtones. Seems, that these teachers, this sort of teachers, have never
> > experienced the advantage of both sides & still struggle with their horn
> to
> > produce the right notes. If that would count alone ?
> >
> > And endurance related ? If they play a lot on the F-side, they develop
> more
> > endurance. In a demanding piece, if you play a lot on the F-side, well,
> getting
> > tired, you still have the Bb-side for emergency. If you start all on the
> Bb-side,
> > the F-side will not be any help, if the piece愀 demand has made you tired.
Jonathan West
concerned which way round the thumb valve should be set. It *wasn't*
concerned with which side of a double horn should be used more when
learning. To that extent, Hans Pizka has managed to provide an answer to a
completely different question from the one asked.
Whichever way round the thumb valve is set, I think you will find little
disagreement that it is necessary for a player to become proficient on both
sides of a double horn.
--
Regards
Jonathan West
"James Buchholz" <buch...@acegroup.cc> wrote in message
news:3CB1E94C...@acegroup.cc...
James Buchholz
facts:
1. If you give this child a single Bb horn, what fingerings will be learn?
2. If you give this child a double horn which with no action on his part plays
as a Bb horn, will he learn faster the F fingerings, the F side tonal
characteristics, the F side overtone progressions found in a lot of classical
horn music. While a double horn is the best solution to general horn playing,
maybe taking away the double and handing the child a single F horn during a
lesson in the near future would give the horn teacher a rude awakening. Maybe
the horn teacher could have the student play his/her double horn set up in F
side as primary. As adults we don't have problems knowing that horn players
have to know the whole instrument, have to know all the fingerings, have to
know pretty much everything we can possibly know about the horn and horn
playing. Even hand horn technique of the days gone by develops if not
admiration of the players of Mozart's time, a greater understanding of tonal
centering, intonation, blending. But for a child they need to learn the basics
on horn. Fingerings I include as pre-basics. The basics are tone,blending,
intonation matching with other instruments when it comes to high school level
music or less. Any beginner horn player should know up-front that the horn
entails tradeoffs and choices especially between the Bb and F sides. The
beginner in the case being discussed---single Bb horn to double (again
probably Bb) horn I don't believe is the best approach.. Hans of course has
lived through the "no pain no gain" and "sink or swim" teaching methods of his
past. He not only has lived through it but survived and prospered as a horn
player. I don't aspire to travel his road to professional expertise if at all
possible. While it's true his opinions sometimes are quite different than many
others who reside in the USA; especially his understand (or mis) of our
educational system, I still respect him in areas he is good in. I don't think
there is any disagreement in our total final objective for this young starting
player, only in the methods taken to reach the goal. If your path to learning
horn was different how about we maybe thing about making a path to learning for
the child being discussed a little different also.
jim buchholz
Mark
I appreciate your most recent posts to this list and the clarification of
your position. I will agree with you that there are lots of problems with
American Music Education and none of them are going to get fixed in the near
future.
I respect Paul Kampden and Lawrence Yates work very much, they are not only
professional players but teach at all levels. They also teach in the United
Kingdom which may or may not be irrelevant.
There was a period in my life when I was a music teacher and in addition to
public school music, I also taught beginning and intermediate horn students.
All in all in period of about five years I had about twenty five private
students. The opinions that I express then, are not based on theory or what
someone else may say based on their own experiences, but on mine. In the
context of my experience these are the conclusions that I have drawn:
1. You really have to get into the mind of a fifth or sixth grader, some of
the concepts regarding technique, choices about style etc.all go out the
window. At the beginning point, they want to play in the school band.
2. It doesn't really matter if the student starts with a Bb single or an F
single. Most of my students had F singles but some (four or five) had single
Bb horns and two (as I recollect) actually had doubles.
3. IN THE CONTEXT OF MY EXPERIENCE, the single Bb students made faster
progress and had more confidence than the single F students.
4. In terms of sound, the student DOES imitate the teacher, and there, I
think Suzuki had it right. If you demonstrate to your students the proper
sound, they are going to try to emulate it. Key to producing sound is
mental concept.
5. These are students who are trying to master tunes like "Lightly Row" and
the collected band works of James D. Ployhar (who BTW was a horn player and
wrote some nice beginning band piece that have decent and sometimes
prominent parts for the horn). Elementary and junior high school bands and
orchestras (becoming rarer I regret to say) don't do Ein Heldenleben or
excerpts from the Ring that often.
6. If you teach your students the basics, how to count, how to play
scales, how to produce a decent sound, how to articulate correctly, they
will become competent school musicians. Try working with a student beginner
who is struggling to get a fourth space written D out of an inferior (not
Chinese which are the worst) F single, and thoughts about tone, trills,
slurs go right out the window. Give the same student a single Bb and it
becomes easier, and then you are not fighting the horn and you can teach
music, and eventually start refining technique. In the American Music
Education System in GENERAL, music instruction revolves around the band, not
a class of same instruments, much less private instruction, and often taught
by someone who hasn't a clue about the horn (would you feel confident
teaching the bassoon or oboe ? I had the double reed methods class, but it
is not enough in my opinion). A kid who gets private lessons is lucky and
sometimes the half hour private lesson that the kid gets is more music than
a student will get in two or three forty five minute band periods a week.
7. As the student progresses to the intermediate level, you must push tone,
and the way to do this is to: listen to the teacher and imitate he or she,
have the student begin practicing long tones. Ideally if you can get them to
listen to recordings that is optimal, but unlikely. You begin to look at
the fine points of musical interpretation and this includes sound quality,
BTW how today do we even define what a good horn "sound" is ? When I was
younger it was the big American 8D influenced sound, but now we are moving
to a more international sound which is brighter and less expansive, that is
a concept.
At a certain point, there are going to be compromises. Why, because our
system of music education is based on competition. Ego driven band directors
will do whatever it takes to get that top prize or first division rating, if
they don't their jobs are on the line. Do I like that ? Of course not. Do I
think it is right ? No it is a travesty, but it is reality. Like I said in
an earlier post, it is amazing that our system produces so many fine
players, but it does.
Now the biggest culprit in creating bad student horn players in my
opinion is the G** D*** MARCHING BAND. When a kid gets to that intermediate
level and you are just about ready to do something really great with him or
her, they go to high school and are issued a mellophonium or maybe an alto
or sometimes are even stuck playing third cornet or trumpet. All the years
of tone production, and musicality go right out the window.
Now I know that there are DCI and marching band fans out there who are
going to jump me and say that marching bands play musically and there are
tremendous opportunities etc. This is true, but it is also true that the
typical high school horn players spends up to four months each year (or
maybe longer if there is a parade invitation or if the high school goes on
to championship games) on a completely different instrument and in some
cases with a completely different mouthpiece (you don't know how many
non-horn playing band directors disdain adaptors and make the kids play on
mellophonium mouthpieces). Since today, bands do the same show and the same
parade music all season, the student is only exposed to a limited amount of
music. If a half dozen or so pieces are drilled into someone, sooner or
later they will sound good on those half dozen pieces.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion about horn pedagogy, and we can
have theories out the wazoo, but unless you have been there and done that,
you really don't know on the experiential level.
I would urge all horn players who are decently grounded in their
instruments to volunteer with their local school music programs. Perhaps
give a Saturday morning master class, or teach privately. Even if you only
have one or two students, you can make a difference in their lives. I would
also encourage you go into demographic areas of lesser socio-economic levels
and work with the music program there if you can. I must confess that I have
not done any of these things recently, however I am participating in a
recital given by one of the local horn teachers here. She thought it would
be fun for me to play on the same program as her beginning students. I am
looking forward to meeting them and performing with them, and from this, I
hope to become more active with our beginning and intermediate players,
regardless of whether they have single F's, single Bb's, or double horns set
in F/Bb or Bb/F.
This post should have been my first one, not my last one on the subject.
I hope it clarifies my views. Remember, we need to encourage and train our
replacements, because if we don't, it isn't going to happen the way we want
it to.
Mark Louttit
James Buchholz
Getting back to the original debate before it went off in left field on
general education etc, I see it this way as to
what is best for your child. In context what we have is if a
Mom who thinks setting the horn up as Bb primary is not-ok; a
Father who is not sure. I think Mom and Dad should go with their
instincts for THEIR child (not all children). Mom as a horn
player would know if the child hits a "frustration barrier" playing
the horn on the F side if set as primary. If you decide to keep the horn set
as Bb without the triggerpull I would every so often place a single F horn
in his hands and see what happens (or another double set as primnary F). If
your son says any of the following you will know all is not well:
"I don't know the fingerings for the F side!"
OR you see that the Bb side is always on then it's time to take
action. The horn developed as a F key horn for a reason. That reason is
mainly it's sound. The Bb side came along mainly for security in the upper
notes of the range. And you cannot fight history. If you try someone loses.
Before 1830 the french horn came in all sorts of keys in many flavors. The
dust mostly settled on the F and Bb combo. The discussion in progress has
not covered really your unique child. Since there is a horn player in the
family I say "Mom knows best!"
jim buchholz
Mark
So you are saying that Mom knows more than the teacher ? I take it that the
teacher is a horn player.
Again,. Jim, what is your experience as a teacher of the horn ? More theory,
I think. How many beginning and intermediate students have you taught ? (Now
I guess I sound like somebody on the other list). Do you really know how to
teach a beginning student a fundamentally good horn sound ? Just lopping
along with a single F is no guarantee at all. How many students have you
taught ? What are your credentials as a teacher of music ? Can you back your
ideas with experience, or are you just another amateur player who has lots
of theory but little in the way of practical experience in horn pedagogy ?
The basic question is: How does the kid sound ? Is he developing a good
fundamental horn sound ? That is the question that Mom needs to determine
and ask, and that is answer that we don't know.
Personally, I'd side with the teacher who makes his or her living doing that
sort of thing, unless it is apparent that the student is not coming along.
Why do you assume that everyone is going to automatically go to the Bb side
of the double and BTW what kind of horn did you learn on, especially since
you came to the horn relatively late, since, if memory serves me correctly,
you were a woodwind player, right ? Is that what you did, start on a double
horn and use the Bb side exclusively until somebody told you that you
sounded like a bad mellophone player ?
Actually you need to look at the history of the French (sic) horn a little
more carefully. 1830 is a bit early for determination of establishing a key
center as horn in F. Valve horns in a variety of keys were the norm until
the late 19th Century, and many composers continued to write for in the
style of the hand horn until the early 20th Century (Puccini is a good
example of this, the Strauss 2nd Concerto which was written in the middle
1940's was written for horn in Eb, who know why, maybe Richard was having a
senior moment). The modern double horn didn't really come into being until
around the turn of the last century (circa 1898-1900) and was a compensating
horn developed by Kruspe, the first true double came around in about
1910-1911, made by Alexander. Hand horn technique did not completely die out
either, I believe that hand horn was taught by at the Paris Conservatory
until just before WWI.
This is just extraneous information. Sorry, I did not mean to go on a
tangent. There are other things besides just sound. Is the student learning
how to read music properly, is he learning articulation, is he performing
literature for the horn appropriate for his abiilty level, is he learning
scales and how they are constructed, is the proper right hand position being
taught (a major error, especially among non-horn playing teachers), is some
attention being given to ear training ? These are all important questions
and part of the total instructional package. To harp on one teaching point,
fails to address the whole issue of competentcy.
You of course, are entitled to your opinions, but until you have been there
and done that, that is all they are, opinions grounded in someone else's
theories and experiences.
I say this without rancor and wish you all the best.
Mark Louttit
James Buchholz
and that she has not delegated away even to the music teacher. The plus also is
Mom is a horn player. Rule number one is parents make decisions for their
children period. As to stating my credentials especially in a chatroom it is a
lesson in futility---who knows who is what.. Why are so many people interested
in show and tell time. I thought I was expressing an opinion and not making a
deposition. For the record I do have a Masters in Music Education out of TCU but
have never really used it over the years much. As far as teaching it was under a
year in a middle school environment for band instruments, 2 years as a teacher
assistant in grad school, 1 yr in a Milwaukee WI inner city school teaching Math
(my minor taken with my Vocal/Instrumental double major). Then there was the
draft and the Vietnam war, and my attendance was mandatory. Since then it was
work and supporting a family in something other than music. I have been playing
oboe and woodwinds since 1959, valve and slide trombone since about 1961.
Currently play clarinet/soprano sax in a dixieland band, sax in a big 13 piece
dance band, either my flugelhorn, trumpet or woodwind in the local church
contemporary music band (either improvise or transpose) and horn in the local
city band. I did try my Single horn on 3nd alto sax part and it worked well in
the big band group. I believe Dennis Brain played tenor trombone parts at a club
in London. As far has horn playing I am recent on the scene. The only serious
study on any instrument was back on my grad school days when I studied oboe with
Marcel Dandbois. Back in my college years (and grad school) I really had little
to do with horn players. Horn players then were into what was called having
"mystical" experiences with Philip Farkas. The players drove the 90 miles to
take lessons with him. In general back then we who played instruments other
than horn found the horn players boring and sometime obnoxious, some not fun
being around. They were caught up in their own little world and had the music
world cornered; or so they thought. Fortunately things have changed from then to
now.
The date of about 1830 sticks in my mind from a horn history book. Valves by
Blumel (and others) came about in 1813 but the first musical score part for
valve horn is in Halevy's La Juive (dated 1835). The history book stated
simplistically that the double as we know it came about in roughly 1830, add a
few years plus or minus if you so wish. The handhorn horn did continue for some
time past that date of course.As was pointed out earlier a 15yr old may or may
not be able to grasp all the fine points on horn playing. Playing horn has no
guaranties whether you go the route I went single F horn to double, or single Bb
to double. I'm sure the 15 year old horn player will do fine with Mom and Dad
helping; and maybe even a few horn teachers also thrown in.
Ex-austinite
"Mark" <mlout...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Jogs8.38145$l7.39...@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
> Ex-austinite,
>
> Well, I am not denigrating Hans Pizka's work at all. Hans Pizka has not
only
> performed impeccably as solo horn with the Bavarian State Opera for many
> years, continues to serve on the IHS Advisory Council, and has done much
to
> examine performance practice in the past, his work regarding Mozart and
the
> horn is soon to be out. I have a high confidence level that it will be a
> significant contribution to the horn world and I am on the list to
purchase
> a copy. Are you ?
I dunno. I guess I could ask Hans, since we've been on good terms at past
IHS conferences. I'm not fit to carry his horn around, but that doesn't
stop him from dealing with me politely and in a friendly manner.
>
>
> You asked for my credentials and background. I have no problem responding
to
> that, but will not pander to anyone who chooses to write and criticize me
> under the cloak of anonymity. Hans has enough character and integrity
that
> he writes what he writes under his own name. Jim Bucholz has enough
> character to write under his own name, I write under my own name. I will
not
> pander to the likes of someone who hides behind some internet handle. To
me
> it indicates a lack of character and integrity. If in the interest of
> Internet privacy you elect to have a "nom de internet" write me privately
at
> mlout...@net1plus.com and identify yourself and I will be happy to share
> my background with you publicly in this forum. I'm guessing that you are a
> bit on the youthful side and that you must have resided in Texas at one
time
> and that you are argumentative (that's okay) and probably don't think for
> yourself, but since I really don't know who my critic is, I should not, in
> all fairness to you, jump to conclusions. I will defer sharing until I
know
> who you are, your background and where you are coming from. This is not an
> unreasonable request, I do believe.
Fair enough. I'm Ron Boerger, 42, contributing editor for the Horn Call and
avocational hornist very much ordinare. My guess is that you would be Mark
Louttit of the Chelmsford Community Band?
The questions in my previous message remain. A guy asks about settings of
the F/Bb trigger. James Bucholz posts a reply by one of the world's leading
hornists. You slam James, call him a Pizka sycophant, question Pizka's
qualifications to make the statements attributed to him, call one of the
statements "ludicrous," and launch into a long-winded reply regarding
"American Music Education." That certainly sounds like, your
protestations aside, denigrating Hans' opinions, which are certainly part of
his body of work. And there is plenty of difference between music education
from one state to another (not to mention from county to county and district
to district), so the term "American Music Education" seems a misnomer.
Given the original question I saw little relevancy between the discussion of
AME objectives and F & Bb trigger settings.
Ron Boerger
Hiding from more spam
Mark
Thank you for your reply. I am Mark Louttit and yes I do play in the
Chelmsford Band. In addition to playing four years in USAF Bands I played
professionally as a member of the Tucson Symphony Orchestra and Tucson Civic
Ballet Orchestra in the middle 70's. I taught high school music for two
years in Casa Grande Arizona (had an instrumental program of approx 200
students, three bands 9 thru 12). Later I moved to California where I worked
in the retail music business serving as manager of the instrumental music
department of Keynote Music Service in Los Angeles. I also played
semi-professionally with a group known as the West Los Angeles Chamber
Orchestra and with several community groups in addition to being a member
of the 562nd Air Force Band of the Air National Guard. During this time
frame (from the middle 70's to the early 80's) I had, as previously
indicated, I had approximately 25 beginning and intermediate horn students
who studied privately with me. I hold a Bachelor of Music Degree in
Instrumental Music Education from the University of Arizona and an
additional B.A. in History from the same institution.
In 1982 I left music as a livelihood and decided to return full time to the
armed forces. An opportunity existed for me to do get into Army Intelligence
(the history B.A.'s focus was in Central European and Russian/Soviet
History) so I pursued that for sixteen years until I retired in 1998 as a
Chief Warrant Officer. During this time I played in various community groups
whenever my duties allowed and in 1995 spent a year studying the horn
privately again with Robt. Murray who teaches at Colorado College and is
principal horn with the Colorado Springs Symphony. The primary reason is
that for a year prior to this I had extensive dental work because of
condition that I developed and had to have a total rebuild of my mouth and
teeth. At that juncture, I literally had to start playing the horn over
again, and it was a most interesting experience and caused me to reflect on
what I had previously learned about both playing and teaching the horn
before and caused me to rethink some aspects of horn pedagogy. When I
retired from the Army, I got a job with the state civil service and continue
to play avocationally. I hope that this is an adequate explanation of who I
am.
Ron, I have appreciated your fine work with both the Horn Call and the Horn
FAQ that you have posted on the Internet and would recommend that anyone who
is interested in the horn would not only join the IHS and get the Horn Call
but also go to your site as well. You have made many contributions to the
horn world, and I am, for one, very grateful and appreciative of all that
you have done.
I do detect anger and rancor in your post, which is indeed most unfortunate.
If I am incorrect about this, I do apologize, as you know it is sometimes
difficult to discern emotion from just the written word. I know that as a
somewhat public person in the realm of the horn, people have occasionally
written you or accused you of things via letter or email with rancor and
malice for no good reason. I believe that you have alluded to this from time
to time, and I fear that this may have made you see smoking guns or hidden
agendas where there are none. I am appreciative of the fact that you did
share with me and the others on this list who you are and where you are
coming from.
I think that I have accurately summed up Hans Pizka's contributions to the
horn, and certainly I give him credit where credit is due and I would
respectfully ask that you reread what I wrote. The simple fact is that
teaching the horn and teaching young beginners is not Han's area of
expertise no matter how accomplished he may be as a horn player, horn
builder, and horn scholar and music publisher. There is a tendency, I think
to want to fall in line with the big names in the horn world, rather than
evaluate where they are coming from. All I was suggesting to Jim was that he
need only think for himself. I do not feel that my experiences as a teacher
of beginning and intermediate students of the horn are any less valid
because I am not a world class player. I have brought to the table, so to
speak, my life and my experiences and based on that I would disagree with
Hans on this particular issue. It is important not to be in "awe of rank" as
we say in the military, but to be our own persons. In my private email
correspondence with Hans, he has always been both personable and cordial, I
like the man, I just don't agree with him on this issue, does that make me a
bad guy, or necessarily wrong because the context of my experience is
different?
It was Jim who brought up the subject of Music Education in America, not me,
and he was relating his experiences with it. I chose to respond to it. I am
relating my experiences first hand as a former music educator in one state
and as a person who made his livelihood for several from customers who were
music educators in another state. I would agree that it is difficult to
draw conclusions from only two regions, however I have lived in Texas,
California, Colorado, Arizona, New Jersey, Georgia and Massachusetts in the
last twenty five years and have maintained an interest in music education
and instrumental music programs wherever I have lived. I honestly think with
all of my heart, that the marching band as it exists across the board is far
more detrimental in the development of horn players than starting someone on
a Bb horn or mandating that the horn be set in Bb/F rather than F/Bb.
Ron, if you want to paint me as some amateur who doesn't even deserve to mop
the moisture droppings from Han Pizka's horn that is okay. I can assure you
that we are on the same side, and I will continue to support your endeavors
with the IHS and your website regardless of what you may think of me, but I
will not waver from my position on this particular issue.
I have enjoyed corresponding and posting with both you and Jim and hope that
we can continue to have a lively dialog on various issues regarding the
horn. This newsgroup has been kind of dead for a long time.
Best wishes for continued success in all of your endeavors,
Mark Louttit
Jonathan West
> I don't understand why you say Hans's answer is entirely off.
I didn't. I said that your post addressed something rather different from
the subject of the question.
> Here are some
> facts:
<irrelevant facts snipped, because they are still not to do with the
question.>
You (and Hans) are talking about which side of the horn you should spend
more time learning. That is not relevant to which way round the thumb key is
set. You can do a perfectly adequate amount of practise on the F side with
the thumb key set on the Bb side, and I would hope that the boy's teacher is
competent enough to make sure that this is done.
--
Regards
Jonathan West
tom...@eircom.net
> "James Buchholz" <buch...@acegroup.cc> wrote in message
> news:3CB316D9...@acegroup.cc...
> > I don't understand why you say Hans's answer is entirely off.
>
> I didn't. I said that your post addressed something rather different from
> the subject of the question.
>
>
> > Here are some
> > facts:
>
> <irrelevant facts snipped, because they are still not to do with the
> question.>
Tom Mc Manus