Intervocalic "s" in Church Latin - Promisisti, Praesepio

[Avi Jacobson]

Considerable discussion has taken place here about intervocalic s in
Italianate ("Church") Latin, and the rule seems to be "voiced between
vowels, voiceless elsewhere, voiceless when doubled". However, I am
wondering about the first s in "promisisti" ("Quam olim Abrahae
promisisti et semini ejus...") and the s in "praesepio" ("Animalia
viderent Dominum Christum jacentem in praesepio"). I have never heard
either of these words pronounced with a voiced [z] sound. Are they
exceptions of some sort, or were the performers I have heard simply
mistaken?

I am asking specifically about Italianate Latin, not about
reconstructed Classical Latin pronunciation nor about German
conventions for pronunciation of Latin.

Thanks in advance for any enlightenment.

[Alan Jones]

"Avi Jacobson" <av...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:32f3deb5.01110...@posting.google.com...

A standard reference book is Harold Copeman's "Singing in Latin". Following
the Liber Usualis, he says of modern Italian church Latin ("Roman" Latin) "S
is hard as in [English] 'sea' [i.e.voiceless] but is *slightly softened*
when coming between two vowels (misericordia)". I assume that implies
"slightly voiced". He points out that in Italian itself the sound varies
from full voicing in the North to completely unvoiced in the centre and
South, while in Tuscany it varies with the word; and that the Liber Usualis
is not followed strictly in all parts of Italy. His discussion of Italian
Latin pre-1550 gives some startling information, but nothing relevant to
your question.

It's clear from liturgical recordings that there are differences from
"Roman" Latin in France and to a lesser extent in Spain and Portugal. An
unvoiced "s" seems usual in every position, even when beginning a word after
a voiced consonant such as "d".

Alan Jones

[Warren Steel]

[mailed and posted]

Avi Jacobson wrote:
> Considerable discussion has taken place here about intervocalic s in
> Italianate ("Church") Latin, and the rule seems to be "voiced between
> vowels, voiceless elsewhere, voiceless when doubled". However, I am
> wondering about the first s in "promisisti" ("Quam olim Abrahae
> promisisti et semini ejus...") and the s in "praesepio" ("Animalia
> viderent Dominum Christum jacentem in praesepio").

I don't have the full-length Copeman book, just the McGee and
the "pocket" Copeman. In McGee, the author of the Italian Latin
section (Copeman) says that the strict "Liber Usualis" pronunciation
is used by hardly anybody in Italy. Italian choral directors here
and in the early music list/newsgroup have been unanimous, for
example, that only non-Italians utter the prescribed K sound in
"mihi" and "nihil." In northern Italy, the vowels may vary
somewhat, and in Tuscany there is a distinction between open and
closed E and O. In central and southern Italy, intervocalic S is
pronounced as S--not a bad approach for foreigners, I'd say. In
the north, there is some "softening" or voicing of intervocalic S,
but, as you say, there are exceptions: "eleison," for one, and
words where S follows a prefix such as de-, prae-, etc.--the
examples given are "desuper" and "praesepio," both pronounced /s/.
But I can see no reason for not vocalising "promisisti" if you're
vocalizing intervocalic S in general. At least that's how I
read it. But I emphasize, as McGee and Copeman do, that the
Liber Usualis pronunciation is an idealized, not a real
pronunciation, peculiar to the 20th century, and of questionable
application even in that period, since it's clear that French,
German, Spanish, and regional Italian pronunciations of Latin
are still flourishing in the 21st.

--
Warren Steel mu...@olemiss.edu
Department of Music University of Mississippi
http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/

[Avi Jacobson]

[mailed and posted]

Thank you very much indeed, Warren, for your detailed response.

"Warren Steel" <mu...@olemiss.edu> wrote in message
news:3BE9A48E...@olemiss.edu...

[Alan Jones]

"Sherry Humes" <sherr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3BEA87BD...@home.com...

> Warren Steel wrote:
> In central and southern Italy, intervocalic S is
> > pronounced as S--not a bad approach for foreigners, I'd say. In
> > the north, there is some "softening" or voicing of intervocalic S,
> > but, as you say, there are exceptions: "eleison,"
>

> Just wanted to point out that "eleison" is Greek, not Latin.

Yes, but in the context of the Latin Mass it is treated as Latin and so
pronounced, whether according to local tradition or the rules of the Liber
Usualis. We (C of E village church) sing the Kyrie only in Advent and Lent
or at memorial Eucharists, and use the "z" sound. For other music, we use
the usual English modification of Italian Latin ("ex-chel-cease" etc). The
choral society I conduct uses the same "Anglo-Italian" pronunciation, except
for Austrian or German music such as Haydn and Mozart masses, where we
approximate to German Latin consonants with hard "g", "kv" for "qu" and so
on.

Alan Jones

[np]

I think American Latin should be standardized-- the Europeans have already
had their chance and no one can agree. Think how much rehearsal time we
could save by grinding the r's, choking on the L's, and singing a short i's
and o's whenever they appeared in something like an English word.

Nick

[Mike McManus]

"np" <nich...@bignet.net> wrote in message
news:9si2hj$7jo$1...@news.bignet.net...

This particular notion reminds me of singing the Verdi "Requiem" under the
direction of Maurice Casey at Ohio State and being told not to sing "Rex"
(of "Rex Tremendae Majestatis") as though we were calling a dog...

[Alan Jones]

<Ello...@aol.com> wrote in message news:97.1dfd958...@aol.com...
> "Sherry Humes" <sherr...@home.com> wrote

> > Just wanted to point out that "eleison" is Greek, not Latin.
>

> Alan Jones" <a...@blueyonder.co.uk>wrote

> >Yes, but in the context of the Latin Mass it is treated as Latin and so
> >pronounced, whether according to local tradition or the rules of the
Liber
> >Usualis. We (C of E village church) sing the Kyrie only in Advent and
Lent
> >or at memorial Eucharists, and use the "z" sound.
>

> Which perhaps simply shows how impossible it often is to generalize about
the
> Church of England! In various churches where I've been Director of Music
> 'eleison' has always been pronounced as Greek with an 's' rather than a
'z'
> sound when singing Latin masses liturgically, or indeed when said
> congregationally - a pronunciation requested by the clergy in each place.
It
> may or may not be correct, but it is certainly widespread in UK CofE town
> churches with a catholic inclination.

Ah, but our village church is (I should say "churches are" - two churches,
one choir) not of "a catholic inclination", or not very conspicuously so.
Alas, we haven't the competence to sing the whole Ordinary in Latin, though
we have (sort of) mastered the Kyrie from Palestrina's Missa Aeterna Christi
munera and have hopes of learning the simpler setting of the Agnus Dei. The
"z" in the Kyrie is what I found when I took over, and there seemed no point
in trying to change local custom. We also sing "Gloria in ex-chell-siss",
though only in carols, as the actual Gloria is always sung in English;
perhaps you prefer "eggs-shell-cease".

Alan Jones