excessive vibrato in older women's voices
Bruce Muskrat
Does anyone have a suggestion for dealing with excessive vibrato in older
women's voices?
--
aaron
the "in" way to sing, and they've been singing that way so long that they
probably would not be able to learn a different style now. Some may not be
willing to learn a different style now. Others may think that they know it
all, and that their way of singing is THE only way to sing.
I've also heard that, at that age, women's voices vibratto naturally, even
more so than when they were younger.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron W. Kenney
Southern Illinois University at Carbondale
Student of choir director Dr. John V. Mochnick,
and voice coach Richard Best.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"democracy is anarchy." -aaron kenney
MBPi...@aol.com
Aaron -
On what scholastic, scientific or musical basis do you dismiss the ability of
anyone to benefit from learning to manage the changes in their voices as they
age? You make some rather broad generalizations about voices, and I would be
interested in knowing more about how your conclusions were reached.
MBP
Fran Faulkner
rav...@siu.edu (aaron) wrote:
> I've also heard that, at that age, women's voices vibratto naturally,
> even more so than when they were younger.
Sorry to gainsay you here, but my mum's 65 and STILL has no trace of
vibrato. She learnt to sing (and taught us to sing) using the
Bel-Canto method. The girls (I'm 34, my sister 32) in our family are
constantly being told after singing solos in church services that 'You
sound just like a boy treble' I have to say that I take that as a
compliment.
--
__
|_ _ _
| |~(_|| |
Keith Haan
Bruce Muskrat wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a suggestion for dealing with excessive vibrato in older
> women's voices?
> --
Paul Salamunovich addressed that at a workshop in Iowa years ago.
He talked about giving direction to the phrase, with growth of
tone as you sing into the phrase. An old Barbershop interp idea
is to alway crescendo or diminuendo. When the singers "stays the
same" the vibratos fight or the tone "goes dead" with a real dull
sound. The whole concept has worked for me in all my choirs
regardless of age.
Roger Doyle
To All--
What an ignorant response has been given to a worthy question! Once again
the Pepsi generation dismisses the old--in this case as having neither
aesthetic sensitivity nor the will to make a disciplined sound.
Though I have no expertise in the physiology of vocal production,
it seems clear that as the body ages, humans (not just women) naturally have
less control over the phonation muscles just as they have less control over
other muscles. While it is unlikely that a mature (older?) adult will be
capable of sounding like a boy soprano, it is not impossible for older
singers to achieve a high degree of uniformity of sound. But, it
requires the conductor to develop a regimen of vocalises which allow the
singers to develop their discipline. It also requires the conductor to
continually insist on the singer's attention to his/her sound and that of
the other singers in the choir.
I conduct a small chorus of men whose average age is somewhere in the
late 60's. Make no mistake! They want to sound good and they are willing
to work pretty hard to make a good sound. This group is not associated
with a church or fraternal organiztion so their only reason to come to
rehearsal each week is that they simply love the fellowship engendered
by singing--and singing well.
As I said above, I have no secrets about the vocal training of these older
singers except that one has to love their enthusiasm and be willing to
use their enthusiasm as the reason to insist on a disciplined sound.
Roger O. Doyle
University of Portland OR
do...@uofport.edu
******************************************************************
> >Does anyone have a suggestion for dealing with excessive vibrato in older
> >women's voices?
> >--
> It's best just to let it go. Back when they learned how to sing, that was
> the "in" way to sing, and they've been singing that way so long that they
> probably would not be able to learn a different style now. Some may not be
> willing to learn a different style now. Others may think that they know it
> all, and that their way of singing is THE only way to sing.
> I've also heard that, at that age, women's voices vibratto naturally, even
> more so than when they were younger.
Stesk...@aol.com
In a message dated 97-01-31 22:45:15 EST, Bruce writes:
<< Does anyone have a suggestion for dealing with excessive vibrato in older
women's voices? >>
God bless these dear ladies who sing. I am certain they want to contribute
rather than detract from the choral sound. Just singing softer can help a
great deal--but with a greater concentration on beautiful tone, support, etc.
Bringing the voice a tad forward toward a brighter tone (which will carry
further w/o as much volume) will make singing much more enjoyable, as well as
help the overall choral tone.
How you communicate this will be MORE IMPORTANT than what you communicate.
One's voice is so personal that to criticize the voice is often perceived as
criticism of the person. I suggest that there be as much affirmation as
possible, and the assurance that singers can make a lovely sound well into
their 90's, if they want to. I am aware of a number of elderly ladies (some
of whom had big voices in their younger years) who are singing beautifully,
albeit with less volume than they used to, but beautifully nevertheless
Steve Skinner
First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant
Erie, PA
JJFaux
Try asking the singers to feel like they are using more air to produce the
tone than they normaly would - It has worked for me.
Jeffrey Faux
Nicole P. Aldrich
Roger Doyle said:
>What an ignorant response has been given to a worthy question! Once again
>the Pepsi generation dismisses the old--in this case as having neither
>aesthetic sensitivity nor the will to make a disciplined sound.
I think being a member of said generation (now we're Gen X'ers, not that I
like that better) has caused me to cultivate a highly-developed sense of
irony, because I got a big kick out of watching someone indict an entire
generation for making generalizations about older people. Anyone with me here?
That said, I must agree with Roger that the problem here is probably one of
muscle control. I see excessive vibrato among younger singers here at
school, as well as among older folks at church. The kids with the wobble
don't have a really good idea yet of how to use their breathing muscles, and
I suspect that the older people, even those who had vocal training as
youths, have simply lost some of that stamina as a result of the aging
process. Muscles atrophy, particularly if one doesn't demand that they stay
active. The other possibility (again, for young singers and older) is that
they assume lots of vibrato is the sign of a well-trained voice, whether
that sound is "hooked up" or not.
I think the key here is to remind these wonderful ladies (or teach them for
the first time, as the case may be) about breath connection. Any voice
teacher can recommend good breathing exercises that he/she uses with
beginning singers; I'm sure most of us have a few favorites of our own.
It's worth considering doing exercises that deal solely with breathing
(e.g., blowing out candles, panting, etc.) in addition to the vocalises
Roger suggests. It's important most of all to do these every time your
group gets together, and to encourage them to take ten minutes on their own
to practice every day. It might be a good idea to write down a description
of these exercises to be posted on refrigerators, the choir room wall, and
the like. It will take some time to get everyone back in touch with the
sensation of a well-supported sound, but once they get there, they'll want
to stay!
I believe this will also help the folks who think you simply must have
vibrato to sound like a grown-up--a good reinforcement of proper technique
will even out the vibrato they have, and they'll become aware of how to give
you more or less as you require.
I've enjoyed the other responses to this question, too. Good luck,
patience, and endurance to all of us who work with wobblers.
Nicole Aldrich
MM '97; GenX '74
npa...@nwu.edu
Northwestern University
aaron
Sorry to gainsay you here, but my mum's 65 and STILL has no trace of
vibrato.
Well- that's cool... not everyone has that problem, and I think I was
refering to someone a little older than 65.
Yes, I too have also heard some great tone out of 65 year olds.
David Topping
On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Fran Faulkner wrote:
> Do you mean vibrato (i.e. a coming and going of the volume with the
> note remaining in tune) or tremulant (where the tuning of the note
> fluctuates up and down around the true note)?
Sorry, Fran, but these just aren't the commonly accepted
(internationally) definitions of these two terms. In "The Structure of
Singing", by Richard Miller (who has travelled the world studying the
various national variations of singing pedagogy), he quotes Carl
Seashore's classic definition of "vibrato":
"A good vibrato is a pulsation of pitch, usually accompanied with
synchronous pulsations of loudness and timbre, of such extent and rate as
to give pleasing flexibility, tenderness and richness to the tone."
So you see that vibrato is actually a combination of the two things that
you are talking about, Fran. The term "tremolo" is commonly applied to a
voice that vibrates "too quickly" or faster than the "normal rate" of
about 6 to 7.5 cycles per second. Vocal vibrato is always accompanied by
fluctuation of pitch, while the "tremulant" on a pipe organ, similar to a
"bellows shake" of an accordion is the "coming and going of volume" you
are calling "vibrato", so in a way, you have them reversed.
I'm a doctoral candidate in Choral Music and a professional chorister and
soloist who has taken several graduate courses in vocal physiology and
technique, along with having colleagues who have done clinical research
in vibrato, just to lay down some credibility on this topic.
David Topping
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dtop...@imap1.asu.edu - David....@asu.edu - ChoralNet co-manager
http://www.public.asu.edu/~dtopping/ - http://www.choralnet.org/
The 21st century starts on 1 Jan 2001, not in 2000! Please pass it on.
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Colin Douthwaite
Keith Haan (Ha...@GSCAXP.WVNET.EDU) wrote:
>Bruce Muskrat wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone have a suggestion for dealing with excessive vibrato in older
>> women's voices?
> An old Barbershop interp idea is to alway crescendo or diminuendo.
I don't believe a vibrato singer would ever gain entry to a
Barbershop Chorus...and a Male Voice Choir that holds entrance
auditions would think hard about admitting vibrato singers.
It is really hard to ask someone to change or leave a choir once
they have been admitted in the first place. Entrance auditions are
very necessary to meet the envisaged standards of the choir.
Bye,
Keith Haan
I'm really concerned about the term "vibrato singer." Is not vibrato of
pleasant depth and speed the result of good singing? Is there really such
an animal as a "non-vibrato singer?" Please explain. Throughout this
"conversation" I have been reminded of singing under directors who were
very manipulative of their choristers voices, often compromising good
vocal training in order to achieve the sound they were after. As a
"choral" person with "vocal" experience, I have listened to and entered
into a number of conversations with "vocalists" who were convinced that
choral directors ruin voices.
I think the gulf between some choral people and some vocal people could
be explored further.
Keith Haan
Glenville State College
Glenville, West Virginia
Ha...@glenville.wvnet.edu
Vivian Adelberg Rudow
Why older women's voices? Older men have that excessive vibrato as well.
Ruth Drucker, faculty at Peabody Conservatory of Music of Johns Hopkins
University, specializes on how to sing
as the voice gets older.
This seems to require a new vocal technique as age creeps up on us. It's
not old bad habits but new challenges to overcome.
Best,
Vivian Adelberg Rudow
David Martin
I must say that I disagree with Fran Faulkner totally. I sing in a
Cathedral Choir which has boys as its top line, but I also sing with
various choirs with sopranos on the top line. I know countless numbers of
females who DO NOT HAVE any vibrato.
Try listening to a recording of the choir of Trinity College, Cambridge
(UK) and you will see what I mean. There are also various Cathedrals in
England, including Exeter, Wells and Salisbury, who maintain a full girls
choir to sing occasional services with the Lay Vicars. If you listen to
these you will hardly be able to tell the difference. I have played a
Guild Music recording 'Canticum Novum', of the boys and girls choir of
Salisbury Cathedral to many professional musicians and choir trainers, and
most of them will sware that they are listening to boys when in actual fact
they are listening to girls.
David Martin
Lay Clerk Belfast Cathedral
Choral Scholar Elect Exeter Cathedral
D.Ma...@BTInternet.com
Fran Faulkner <fr...@barium.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<n559...@barium.demon.co.uk>...
> rav...@siu.edu (aaron) wrote:
>
> > I've also heard that, at that age, women's voices vibratto naturally,
> > even more so than when they were younger.
>
> Sorry to gainsay you here, but my mum's 65 and STILL has no trace of
Fran Faulkner
"David Martin" <D.Ma...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> I must say that I disagree with Fran Faulkner totally. I sing in a
> Cathedral Choir which has boys as its top line, but I also sing with
> various choirs with sopranos on the top line. I know countless numbers
> of females who DO NOT HAVE any vibrato.
Re-read my post, David. What I was saying is that females DON'T necessarily
have vibrato - I don't, my sister doesn't, my mother doesn't.
Your post is actually AGREEING with mine!!
> Try listening to a recording of the choir of Trinity College, Cambridge >
(UK) and you will see what I mean.
Yes, I know all about Trinity College, Cambridge - in fact an acquaintance
of mine is a (female) choral scholar there.
> There are also various Cathedrals in England, including Exeter, Wells
> and Salisbury, who maintain a full girls choir to sing occasional
> services with the Lay Vicars. If you listen to these you will hardly be
> able to tell the difference. I have played a Guild Music recording
> 'Canticum Novum', of the boys and girls choir of Salisbury Cathedral to
> many professional musicians and choir trainers, and most of them will
> sware that they are listening to boys when in actual fact they are
> listening to girls.
And doesn't this concur with my statement? - they swear they are listening
to boys, just like the members of my congregation do!!
(I somehow feel cheated that when I was of an age, no English Cathedral
would have had me - wrong gender, and it's even now a shame that the girls
only get to sing OCCASIONAL services with the ATB sections. Equality moves
in, but slowly!!)
Donald Sosin and Joanna Seaton
For an upcoming concert to raise money to build wells in Haiti, I would
be interested in hearing from anyone who has any Haitian folk music in
choral arrangements.
Peace,
Donald Sosin
FARMHOUSE WINDOW PRODUCTIONS
41 Horseshoe Lane Lakeville CT 06039
860-435-4687 farm...@li.com
Doreen Simmons
By now I'm not quite sure who wrote - maybe Keith Haan?
> I'm really concerned about the term "vibrato singer." Is not vibrato of
> pleasant depth and speed the result of good singing? Is there really such
> an animal as a "non-vibrato singer?" Please explain.
When I was a slip of a girl in England, I knew a music teacher who
distinguished between 'vibrato' and 'tremolo'.'Vibrato' for a singer was
exactly the same as for a string player, though produced differently: the
subtle imperceptible vibration that gives richness and fullness to the
tone. 'Tremolo' was used to distinguish the excessive, audible beat that
is so irritating in a soloist and so deadly in a small choir, especially
in tenors and sopranos. It is not a gender thing, it is a high-voice
thing.I think it's a pity that this distinction between vibrato and
tremolo has been lost.
As other contributors to this thread have observed, this technique that I
would like to call 'tremolo' is a way of singing that some generations,
and some cultures, consider good; it has nothing to do with the age of the
singer, except that as a person who sings that way gets older, the
vibration gets wider. And as an Anglican chorister and a madrigal singer,
no, I don't know any way of dealing with the problem except to make it
clear that the choir cannot accept a vibrato. When I was a choir
director, I told the problem lady to sing more quietly; then even more
quietly; then .... eventually she faded out. Incidentally, she was ten
years younger than I was.
Doreen, the perpetual treble
Zzzzzzippp...
In regards to the volume of posts upon this interesting subject, I have a
question. I have been singing in choirs for several years, so I am not an
expert.
However, there are some kinds of vibrato that I enjoy, and some that I do
not. I heartily enjoy opera. However, in many untrained singers, vibrato
comes out horrible-sounding. Is it possible that there are two kinds of
vibrato -- a supported kind and an unsupported kind? The operatic classic
vibrato always sounds very strong and rich. The stereotypical "elderly
church choir" vibrato (yes, there seems to be a stereotype, folks), is
sort of breathy and quavery. I'm not referring to the difference between
tremolo and vibrato (I've read the thread); because I've also heard
tremolo done both well and badly (I don't particularly like the effect,
but I do think it can be done "well").
Is this possible, or is it just a different style of breath control?
Zzzzzzippp...
--
Erin Hope Blockley gt6...@prism.gatech.edu
One day I shall burst my buds of calm and blossom into hysteria.
- Barbara Johnson
Mark Gresham
On 4 Feb 1997, Zzzzzzippp... wrote:
> In regards to the volume of posts upon this interesting subject, I have a
> question. I have been singing in choirs for several years, so I am not an
> expert.
>
> However, there are some kinds of vibrato that I enjoy, and some that I do
> not. I heartily enjoy opera. However, in many untrained singers, vibrato
> comes out horrible-sounding. Is it possible that there are two kinds of
> vibrato -- a supported kind and an unsupported kind?
There are not just "two kinds" of vibrato. There is actually a continuum
of features and degree of application. A voice doesn't simply "have a
vibrato" although some people attempt to teach as if it is a "fixed"
vocal obligation, even with a fixed "ideal" speed. If you actually
listen to many of the finer opeeratic singers, you will notice that
vibrato and its application varies from singer to singer, sometimes with
sensitivity to the type of literature, and (at its very best) with
sensitivity to the overall musical phrase and the musical moment.
One can heartily enjoy opera without failing to recognize that what is
popularly identified with an "operatic" solo sound is not applicable to most
choral literature. In the first place, what adds "color" and warmth for
one singer singing alone becomes an obscuring factor with a group singing
a unison line. (This is true for instrumental performance as well, BTW.)
What is "expressive" for a single voice can be horrific in a group
situation. Where a group is singing a single line, a great bit of that
"color" and warmth is created by the fact that multiple voices are
involved--called the "chorusing effect" for obvious reasons. The
principle is used in "pop" commercial recordings where a singer will
overdub their own solo line in order to add the "fat" sound that comes
with multiple tracks providing the "chorusing effect"--which derives from
the fact that no one sings *exactly* the same micro-tuning and
micro-diction twice; the tiny differences give the combined tracks the
"body" lacking from the unaltered single voice track. (Certain electronic
alterations can also produce a chorusing effect.) Try that with an
"operatic" voice and it sounds terrible. Same problems with groups using
that same kind of production.
What about opera choruses? Look at the differences in the *writing*.
Opera choruses (as says Carlisle Floyd in an interview by John Noel Wheeler)
are written for delivery of the text and drama in a more declamatory
style. (Choruses in opera are also relatively small; 35 actually singing
(rather than silently carrying spears) would be a rather large
group according to Floyd (Houston Opera/Houston Studio Opera). Yet it is
considered a chamber chorus by concert choral standards.)
Cheers,
* Mark Gresham, composer President, Norcross Music Associates, Inc. *
* mgre...@america.net Ask me about my new book, CHORAL CONVERSATIONS *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * [.sig edited 02/01/97] * * * * * * * * * * * * *