A Troubled Aria 12 String Guitar
JimLowther
significant issues. For an overview, this is one of those East Asian
produced acoustics, with solid Spruce top and laminated back and
sides. I would guess a MSRP was around $400 or less. This one has a
neck with a significant bow (say about 1/8 inch worth at the 9th fret)
and a split in the top about 6 inches long. This is a sad situation
of a guitar not protected adequately from the environment. Otherwise
it has little if any playing wear. What do you do with these cases?
To me it would seem the cost of repair exceeds the value of the
instrument. Is it a total write off?
Even though this is an entry level guitar, it is really painful to see
something like this.
Best wishes,
Dr. Jim Lowther
Kevin Hall
cherry J model; back bow and several significant top cracks clearly brought
about through exposure to extreme dryness. He got it in a pawnshop for $500
and called to ask what he should do with it. I suggested humidifying the
hell out of it for a week or so, then having the cracks ( which are wide
open) cleated to hold things still and play it 'til the appearance bugged
him badly enough to have it re-topped, providing he likes it well enough to
go to that extreme.
One of those cheap square-section plastic suit bags makes an ideal
humidification chamber if you don't have anywhere in the house where you can
crank it up. Lay a pan of warm water in the bottom of the bag, hang the
guitar in there for a week or so and check to see if some of the bow has
come out and the cracks closed up a little. Doing extensive splinting work
properly is expensive and in my experience a lot of splints tend to work
their way out again over the years, no matter who does them or how
skillfully.
On the Aria it's not worth retopping, but it shouldn't take any significant
amount of cash to at least make it playable as a 'beater'. Perhaps a rod
adjustment, maybe a little fret dressing, adjustments to nut and saddle,
and you may well be able to play it sooner than you thought. A couple of
cleats under the crack and you may well be in business. Maybe not, but
it's always worth a shot.
KH
"JimLowther" <JimLo...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Tony Done
"JimLowther" <JimLo...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Lap steel?
Tony D
David Hajicek
and then heat up the neck and let it cool in the jig. Let it sit in the jig
for a week or more to stabilize.
Do that after trying the other options first.
Dave Hajicek
"Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
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Tony Done
"David Hajicek" <haj...@skypoint.com> wrote in message
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> It's possible to straighten the neck by making a jig to put back bow on it
> and then heat up the neck and let it cool in the jig. Let it sit in the
> jig for a week or more to stabilize.
>
> Do that after trying the other options first.
>
> Dave Hajicek
That works. I bought an old National reso with a fairly badly bowed neck -
maple, but it didn't have a truss rod. My music store mate has a special
heating iron for the job, and we did it by applying heat to the fretboard
until the back of the neck felt hot, *then* applying the bending pressure
and removing the heat. The neck was still left with a slight but acceptable
bow but it hasn't moved in about 10 years. - With 13-56 strings tuned to
open D or open G.
On a cheap job I would try apply the bending pressure with the aid of the
jig, then heating the fretboard with a clothes iron
Tony D
JimLowther
All good ideas. I am writing from a southwest province of the Middle
Kingdom in East Asia (I avoid using the "C" word because as a frequent
temporary resident my NG posts are routinely data-mined), so I don't
have a workshop at hand. Most guitar stores here are open to the
elements all year around. Shops are commonly three sided stalls with
the front open during shopping hours and closed with a shop width
rolloer door when closed. I first spotted this particular guitar a
few years back, realized that it was just not selling (I figured
because it as a 12 string, no onboard electrics, and not a cutaway).
I sort of convinced myself that it would make sense to purchase a 12
guitar to leave with friends. When I first saw this guitar it was in
great shape. All of the damage has come from hanging on the wall of
the shope.
Almost all guitars here are either electric or acoustic electric. 90+
percent of acoustics are cutaway. I found about five acoustics I
would consider above entry level, including three CFM X1's, going for
8100 local currency, or about 1200 USD. There are a lot of guitars
here in opaque sunburst finish, many with day glow colors.
The store told me the Aria 12 string is virtually unsalable, so I
might try a low ball price and conspicuous re-hydration. A deal
breaker for me would be if the truss rod is unusable.
So once getting the bow out, wouldn't fret leveling or even pulling
the frets and planing the fretboard be in order?
Kevin Hall
Before making any judgements on how to fix the bow you need to know exactly
how much will come out once it's properly re-hydrated. Actually I'm a bit
surprised there's low-humidity damage, given where you and the guitar are.
I assume you are using the proper term when you say 'bow'. It is generally
accepted that when the middle of the board is lower than the ends it is
called a 'warp', and when the middle is higher ( common when built wet and
subsequently dried out) it's a 'bow'.
Maybe the dealer will allow you to slack the rod off before you buy. Could
be as simple as someone over-revving the rod nut. If the rod slackens off
and you re-hydrate the thing you may get lucky and need no further work.
I'm not a great believer in the magical heating straighteners. In most
cases the neck will go back again. Ironically the outfit which marketed
Arias for years over here sold those jigs with built-in heat elements to
dealers. All they really do is soften the glue between board and neck
enough to let the joint slip, then when you unplug and let it cool under
tension the joint 'heals' again and it may hold for a while, or maybe not
depending on what the original adhesive is.
I don't remember the Aria model numbers, but they made a lot of guitars
with bolt-on necks in the 70s, and that makes neck work a lot easier of
course. If the fingerboard is a reasonable thickness there's no reason you
couldn't pull the frets, level the board and refret if you don't consider
that too much work for what you've got.
Many years ago I remember buying a whole shipment of Washburn 'seconds',
mostly classical guitars. They'd all been built wet and had dried out in
the warehouse, all the necks had gone back and rendered them unplayable.
The Canadian importer sold me a small mountain of 'em for about 20 cents on
the dollar.
At the shop we set up a production line with one guy taking off strings and
pulling frets, one guy levelling the fretboards on a stationary belt sander
( took seconds to do) and a third member of our happy band whapping in a new
set of frets. A bonus to that operation was that the fingerboards had all
been painted black to look like ebony, but underneath they were all lovely
rosewood which looked 100% better once skinned. Seems to me that we spent
about half an hour on each unit then plainly labelled them on the wall as
'scratch and dent specials' and sold them at retail for normal wholesale
price. Went through about a gross of 'em in a matter of a few weeks.
Of course then, as now, I bought my fret wire by the pound in large rolls
rather than in terminally expensive 2 or 3 foot straight lengths, so each
job cost us very little.
They were nice little solid-topped guitars which were otherwise fine, and
very good value for the loot.
KH
"JimLowther" <JimLo...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Tony Done
"JimLowther" <JimLo...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Best wishes,
Dr. Jim Lowther
Something I thought of yesterday. Has the bridge rotated? I recently saw a
Washburn where the bridge had rotated so much that the strings on the back
pins had lifted clear of the saddle. This put a very high limit on how much
the saddle could be lowered to lower the action. I couldn't think of any
cost-effective fix except the lap steel option with a sufficiently high
saddle. I've tried flying braces (like the JDL Bridge Doctor) to crank them
back into line. They may be OK for preventing that kind of problem, but in
my experience they won't fix it, I split a bridge trying.
Kevin, I was surprised at the durability of the heat treatment, my
expectations weren't high. Another repair was surprised me in its stability
was replacement of all the lower bout braces in my old L-00. The guitar had
gone banana-shaped, and the repairer opted for a rebrace rather than neck
reset. He steamed the old braces off, which left the top looking like an
arch top, but when he put the new braces in (through the soundhole) it went
back to a decent shape. It has stayed that way for about 16 years now,
though I only use light gauge strings on that guitar. With the wisdom of
hindsight he might have been better taking the back off, but it all worked
out OK in the end.
Tony D
JimLowther
>
> - Show quoted text -
Kevin,
Probably I am talking what you call a "warp." If you put a straight
edge on the fret boars there would be a big gap under the middle
frets. I have no tools or I would have tried backing off the rod nut
myself just to get an idea if someone had played with it. This is not
an unatractive guitar. I get really puzzled by model lines and
numbers with Arias. If I really serioulsy wanted this guitar (which I
am questioning) I would insist on a pretty extensive investigation. I
just get tired of carrying guitars through airports!
It is interesting to me that most East Asian guitars here actually
come out costing about the same as they would in the US (or even a
little higher), even after haggling.
Best wishes
Dr. Jim Lowther
JimLowther
> "JimLowther" <JimLowt...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
It does not appear that the bridge has rotated. However, I did not
examine the guitar at tension. The shop had de-tuned the strings (a
little late, I guess) and discouraged me from tuning it up.
JimLowther
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oh--meant to add that this city is in mountains, at about 2000 meters
altitude, and gets very dry at some parts of the year, but very wet at
other tmes.
Kevin Hall
in order to try to corrrect that condition. If the warp is serious enough
that the rod adjustment won't do it, or if the rod itself is busted (
fairly common) then the one relatively easy way to make it work is to pull
the frets, measure the slots and refret using wire with tangs anywhere from
2 to 5 thou larger than what you'd usually use on a fingerboard of the same
material. Rosewood frets easier than ebony, so you'd to up an extra thou
or so tang size for that. By compression fretting with the tangs well
oversized you effectively put 20 little wedges in the fingerboard, all
shoving the neck back to where you want it. It takes a while to get a feel
for estimating just how many thou to go up on tang size, but once you have
the knack, and a good supply of wire in a full range of tang widths, you
can pretty much straighten out most necks in a hurry.
KH
"JimLowther" <JimLo...@aol.com> wrote in message
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JimLowther
> OK, warp it is. In that case of course the rod would need to be tightened
> in order to try to corrrect that condition. If the warp is serious enough
> that the rod adjustment won't do it, or if the rod itself is busted (
> fairly common) then the one relatively easy way to make it work is to pull
> the frets, measure the slots and refret using wire with tangs anywhere from
> 2 to 5 thou larger than what you'd usually use on a fingerboard of the same
> material. Rosewood frets easier than ebony, so you'd to up an extra thou
> or so tang size for that. By compression fretting with the tangs well
> oversized you effectively put 20 little wedges in the fingerboard, all
> shoving the neck back to where you want it. It takes a while to get a feel
> for estimating just how many thou to go up on tang size, but once you have
> the knack, and a good supply of wire in a full range of tang widths, you
> can pretty much straighten out most necks in a hurry.
>
You know, Kevin, if I were serious about becoming a professional
repair lutier, I'd come up to your place and just hang out for about a
year. I will visit the guitar tomorrow and see if it is worth it to
me to fool with it to be playable. All depend on how low they will go
to get it off their hands.
alcarruth
for a local shop. The guitars would come in from the wholesaler (the
store owner's dad) with the rod and the string slack. The store clerks
would unpack them, tighten up the strings, and hang them on the wall.
With any luck they sold in a few months, before the string tension had
pulled the neck up significantly. They'd come back about a year after
purchace with the action at 1/4" or so at the 12th fret. and still no
tension on the rod. SOMETIMES (but not always, drat it) you could
slack off the strings, put a LOT of pressure on the rod for a week or
two, and get it back to some semblance of usability. Usually the kid
who owned it needed the guitar yesterday.
I offered several times to give the clerks lessons in basic setup:
most of them were students at one or another music school, and didn't
know much about the nuts and bolts end of things. With a half hour or
so of work any of those guitars would have played much better, and not
come back for warrenty work. They'd have sold more, too: the kids
coming in had no idea about 'setup'; all they knew was that after that
bit of attention the guitars were a lot easier to play and sounded
better.
The clerks were all for the idea: one even took me up on the offer on
the side. He complained that whenever an interesting guitar came in
he'd do a setup on it so he could play it, but it would get sold right
away so he didn't get much of a chance. The owners, OTOH, just could
not get past that 'extra' half hour of time up front: the fact that
the clerks were mostly sitting around during the day practicing guitar
never occurred to them. In the end the penny-wise thinking killed the
store. *sigh*
Alan Carruth / Luthier
Kevin Hall
"alcarruth" <alca...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Unfortunately Al, that sort of thinking has been the norm in retail stores
for quite a while, and the owners just sit around and bleat at each other
about how the economy, big box stores and the internet have ruined the
musical instrument industry. When a kid gets no better service from his
local mom-and-pop music store than he does from Walmart or Ebay, of course
he's going to buy at the cheapest source. It's a no-brainer. Guys who
think about such matters the way you and I do are rapidly becoming extinct.
When I had my store in Toronto we only bought guitars we could consistently
make easy to play. I think our bottom end was about a $125 Yamaha ( late
'70s/early '80s dollars). Every instrument that went on the wall was run
through the shop first and set up, and we gave special emphasis to the
entry level stuff. A pro can play almost anything, and expects to have a
tech set his expensive axe up after he buys it, but a brand new beginner
needs all the help he or she can get. That means their cheap instruments
have to be easy to play. If they aren't, 9 out of 10 of those who start
will quit with sore fingers within a month or less, and there goes your
future market for good stuff right out the door.
About half of my 12 employees at the time could do a simple setup and the
rest could all tell when an instrument needed one. They all knew how to
measure action and neck relief. Even the student I had out front to look
after music school bookings and phone calls knew that if she wasn't busy she
was expected to dust every guitar every day and tune 'em. If she pulled one
off the wall for cleaning and tuning and it felt stiff to play she'd bring
it into the back where one of the techs would attack it and make that right
before it went back up. If the strings were dead they were changed. I
bought strings in bulk with no packaging, so the net cost was less than
half regular wholesale. We put a lot of strings on customer guitars in the
course of a week, so it made sense to buy bulk. It also made a lot of
sense to never have stock on the wall with moldy strings, given the cost of
a set of bulk wires vs. the cost of a lost sale.
And that, gentle reader, is the difference between a real music shop and
buying your stuff at Walmart, Costco, Ebay or direct from our good friends
in the Peoples Republic.
KH
Tony Done
"alcarruth" <alca...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Can I just ask a semantic question of you and Kevin (and anyone else who is
following this). I call bow = neck relief; back bow = a hill in the middle
of the fretboard opposite of bow; twist = neck has a spiral but the strings
can still be set in a reasonable relationship to the frets; warp = the neck
is disfigured in a way that places the string in an uneven relationship with
the frets. Do you use different definitions?
I once owned a Gibson 12-string with a twisted neck, but the action was
good.
Tony D
Kevin Hall
I've known have referred to a condition in which the middle of the board is
lower than the ends as 'warp' and the one in which the middle of the board
is higher than the ends as a 'bow' or 'back bow'. Mild warp within
controllable limits is merely neck relief. A neck with one condition on
one side and the opposite on the other is 'twisted'.
Another condition common to older Gibsons and other guitars which anchor
their truss rods in the same way Gibson did for years exhibits the dreaded
'12th fret hump'. In that case you often have significant warp to the neck
and board, but when you tighten the rod sufficiently to deal with that the
body end of the rod starts to hump up around the 12th to 14th frets and make
it impossible to make play properly without a lot of fretwork.
Lots of the old, skinny Gibson necks exhibited creative combinations of all
of the above.
KH
"Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
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Tony Done
"Kevin Hall" <timbe...@webhart.net> wrote in message
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Thanks Kevin. This particular Gibson was a 12-25 with a very chunky neck
(think musical orangutan) that had spent a long time in the tropics and the
neck was badly warped (your usage). I can't recall it having a hump at the
body, but it was a long time ago. I tried fixing it with the truss rod and
broke the rod just at the nut. I didn't apply much torque, so someone must
had a go at it before me. Anyway, the point of this little tale is that Gary
Brown of Mooloolaba Music, (the same guy who rebraced the old Gibson)
managed to rescue it by finding enough thread remaining on the end of the
rod. A nice piece of work, I think in the days before Stewmac sold their
rescue tool, that fixed the truss rod and subsequently the warp. He was a
good repairer and luthier, but went out of it because he found he could make
more money just selling stuff. Pity, now I'll have to send my guitars to
Sydney if they need serious work.
Tony D
alcarruth
"Every instrument that went on the wall was run
through the shop first and set up, and we gave special emphasis to
the
entry level stuff. A pro can play almost anything, and expects to
have a
tech set his expensive axe up after he buys it, but a brand new
beginner
needs all the help he or she can get. That means their cheap
instruments
have to be easy to play. If they aren't, 9 out of 10 of those who
start
will quit with sore fingers within a month or less, and there goes
your
future market for good stuff right out the door. "
Which was the argument I made all the time. These kids coming in for a
first guitar don't know why it's hard to play, or whether it can be
fixed: they just know it hurts.
The hecks of it was that the owners had taken over a store that had
been there for decades and ran it into the ground. They were nice
enough guys, but could not see past the short term bottom line. After
a while I gave up trying to talk to them. They, of course, blamed all
of their troubles on the chain store that opened up down the street,
but the decline had started much earlier. You could see it coming when
the pros stopped coming in, and more and more of what was on the wall
was lower end stuff. Ah well.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
JimLowther
> "alcarruth" <alcarr...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Kevin and Al,
I have to agree with your points regarding basic setup. I have often
tried to convince novice buyers that "setup" also affects the "tone"
of the instrument, at least on the psychoacoustic level. A guitar
that feels better in the hands and plays better is also more likely to
deliver the pleasurable feeling of being played. It is also much
easier to get the tone out of it that you want. I hate a guitar that
works you to death just to play.
Kevin Hall
store in Toronto it took the new owner less than a year to kill it stone
dead. Neither he nor any of the folks with which he replaced my old crew
knew how to do a setup, and none of 'em were bright enough to care.
At the moment times are extraordinarily difficult in the retail music trade
and I have sympathy for small dealers who are suffering, but it has to be
said that for many of them much of their agony is self-inflicted. The only
way small independents can even pretend to compete with the big box stores
and internet is through first class service and serious, in-depth product
knowledge. It takes time and effort to learn how to deliver both. Dealers
who do their homework and upgrade their skills will find that there are
significant numbers of players still out there from beginners through
experts who understand the wisdom of dealing with someone who knows what the
hell he or she is doing.
KH
"alcarruth" <alca...@aol.com> wrote in message
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JimLowther
I am back in the States--I did not get a chance to go back to the shop
to haggle over the Aria. If it is still there in May I might try to
get it cheap and try to rehabilitate it as a player. It is not worth
it to me to haul it back to the US for anything too extensive. If I
feel I can address the top crack without taking off the back I might
give it a go. But I will also check it over carefully for loose
braces, etc.