Mahogany: How to distinguish Honduran from African
Bob
(African, etc)
Also, any opinions on how they differ tonally?
David Hajicek
"Bob" <b...@nope.com> wrote in message
news:f1pcg5hiebgr9crvp...@4ax.com...
> Is there any easy way to tell Honduran mahogany from other types?
> (African, etc)
>
> Also, any opinions on how they differ tonally?
Ask the person you are buying the wood from. If you can't trust him, don't
buy. LMII has a good description and pictures. Honduran usually has
pronounced grain and pores (but so does African). The African tends to have
more pronounced stripes.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/African_Versus_Honduras_Mahogany.html
The African is more easily available these days. Honduran is getting hard
to find at times. The African has the reputation for not being "real"
Mahogany. But I don't agree. I have stock of both for my own use, as well
as some Asian (Sapele) Mahogany.
I see a number of name brand guitars (e.g. Taylor) are using African. This
is not a criticism. I think it looks very attractive and more interesting
than Honduran. The Asian I have is kind of bland looking with a less
pronounced grain and pores and usually a lighter color.
Sound wise, I think there is more variation between individual boards than
between species. Also, construction is probably more important in bringing
out the tone you want than which type of Mahogany.
So it comes down to appearance (or maybe price or availability), in my
thinking.
Dave Hajicek
alcarruth
American mahogany, but have never seen that in African. It's not a
perfect way of telling them apart: if it does have them, I figure it's
South American, but if it doesn't, it still could be.
African mahogany is said to be closely related botanically to
Honduras, and certainly seems quite similar judging by my limited
experience with it. As Dave says, there's a lot of variatino within
any species, and you have to work with the wood you've got without
worrying so much about the species name.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
David Hajicek
"alcarruth" <alca...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:b21d5180-4110-4d5b...@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
Thanks Al. I'd forgotten about the white spots. That could be part of what
the OP was seeing.
Dave Hajicek
JimLowther
At one time (long ago, in the infancy of modern plant taxonomy--1700s)
African Mahogany and New World Mahogany were classified in the same
Genus. They were seperated some time back, and I cannot tell you
which was originally called Mahogany, etc. It is always difficult to
talk about two tree species being "related." At some level they are
all related. Added to this difiiculty is that traditional plant
taxonomy focuses much more on flowering and reproduction similarities
rather than growth habit or wood quality. There are timbers that are
sold under the same name when cut into lumber that nonetheless are
from two not so closely related species.
They are different trees, but I have to agree that the appearance of
the wood is very similar (and I have noticed the more pronounced
banding on African). I have never worked with African, but I
associate what I think is a rather pleasant smell with working with
Honduran Mahogany. Some ten years ago I bought enough Honduran to
last me for years to come (bear in mind I just work with this stuff as
a hobby).
Certainly a reputable seller knows where the wood came from. I
suspect that people who resaw the wood must have a pretty good idea
which is which.
Best wishes,
Dr. Jim Lowther
Bob
Sorry for the late reply. I've been sidetracked on another project,
but thanks to all for the interesting info. That helps to put things
into perspective.
I originally thought that this looked much like Honduran, aside from
the odd mottling in the lower section. but despite the warmer color,
it's almost definitely African, given the streaks (and their asking
price):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320458724860
The grain on the following looks a bit more like Honduran, but again,
it's probably not:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190356878202
The following strat body is is from a vendor who sells both African
and Honduran. This one may be Honduran, as the grain is more uniform:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170406690628
I don't see any evidence of white specks, though I know you said that
they're not always present. Maybe the example above looks more uniform
cause it's quarter-sawn?
BTW, clicking on the photo will display a larger picture. The last one
in particular looks nice.
(NOTE: I'm not the seller of any of those items. Just realized that
Ebay was a good place to find photos for reference. All auctions are
already closed)
David Hajicek
"Bob" <B...@znospam.com> wrote in message
news:5768i5tnh7m85m4v3...@4ax.com...
Bob: The pictures were not good enough to see some of the detail. While
some of the wood could be Honduran, I think it would be advertised as such
if it were (They could get a higher price). All the pictures are consistent
with some Asian Mahogany I've seen, and there must be a hundred different
varieties.
It does not have the "Tiger Stripe" like I have on the African Mahogany I
have. This feature is very pronounced and can be quite attractive.
In any case, at those prices, I would not worry and simply buy a body that
looks attractive to you. The sound should be fine.
Dave Hajicek
Bob
<haj...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>
>"Bob" <B...@znospam.com> wrote in message
>news:5768i5tnh7m85m4v3...@4ax.com...
>>
>> I originally thought that this looked much like Honduran, aside from
>> the odd mottling in the lower section. but despite the warmer color,
>> it's almost definitely African, given the streaks (and their asking
>> price):
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320458724860
>>
>> The grain on the following looks a bit more like Honduran, but again,
>> it's probably not:
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190356878202
>>
>> The following strat body is is from a vendor who sells both African
>> and Honduran. This one may be Honduran, as the grain is more uniform:
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170406690628
>Bob: The pictures were not good enough to see some of the detail. While
Thanks for your reply, David. Sorry that the pics weren't clear. Did
you double-click to show the enlarged version? I'm especially curious
about the last one.
>some of the wood could be Honduran, I think it would be advertised as such
You'd think so, but some vendors don't seem to specify. For example,
the last link above is a known, Fender-licensed manufacturer. They
usually don't say anything about origin. But they did say (via email)
that the body above is Honduran. I wouldn't know how to tell for sure.
The other bodies are anyone's guess.
>if it were (They could get a higher price). All the pictures are consistent
>with some Asian Mahogany I've seen, and there must be a hundred different
>varieties.
Oh great...now there's Asian too.
>It does not have the "Tiger Stripe" like I have on the African Mahogany I
>have. This feature is very pronounced and can be quite attractive.
I'll keep looking then.
>In any case, at those prices, I would not worry...
>The sound should be fine.
They're all probably "OK" but I'm after one thing in particular. I
have a nice quality older Honduran strat body that sounds beautiful.
You can instantly tell the difference from alder/ash unplugged--
gorgeous, rich midrange and tons of presence. My alder and ash bodied
strats sound sort of 'distant' by comparison. I'm looking to get as
close as possible to that Honduran body, but haven't found anything
similar yet.
Some guitar makers that I've spoken to say that Korina may be sort of
close, and that African and other mahoganies will probably sound
closer to light ash. If Asian mahogany sounded like my Honduran
strat, I'd go for it in a second. I kind of doubt it though.
Steve
I have made bass bodies from Honduran (the hardwood dealers call it
"Genuine") mahogany and from African mahogany AKA Khaya. In general the
African is a darker color, and has a characteristic stripe to it that
runs parallel to the grain. Also, the African seems to be a heavier
wood than Honduran. Other than these differences, the grain structure
of the two are very similar.
I have access to Honduran and African (Khaya) mahogany, and I would be
happy to make a Strat body for you from either of these woods. The
price would be $145 for Honduran and $125 for African. My turnaround
time is 3 to 3-1/2 months these days, so you probably would be looking
at the end of March as a delivery time. Shipping would probably be
between $25 and $30, depending on where you are.
Contact me privately if you are interested:
stephen<dot>cyr<at>smctek<dot>com
--Steve in Roseville
David Hajicek
"Steve" <sm...@sureNOSPAMwest.net> wrote in message
news:d0a43$4b26ffab$453ed4ce$94...@EVERESTKC.NET...
> Bob;
>
> I have made bass bodies from Honduran (the hardwood dealers call it
> "Genuine") mahogany and from African mahogany AKA Khaya. In general the
> African is a darker color, and has a characteristic stripe to it that runs
> parallel to the grain. Also, the African seems to be a heavier wood than
> Honduran. Other than these differences, the grain structure of the two
> are very similar.
>
> I have access to Honduran and African (Khaya) mahogany, and I would be
> happy to make a Strat body for you from either of these woods. The price
> would be $145 for Honduran and $125 for African. My turnaround time is 3
> to 3-1/2 months these days, so you probably would be looking at the end of
> March as a delivery time. Shipping would probably be between $25 and $30,
> depending on where you are.
>
> Contact me privately if you are interested:
>
> stephen<dot>cyr<at>smctek<dot>com
>
> --Steve in Roseville
>
What are the differences you hear between guitars made with Honduran vs.
African Mahogany?
My guess is that if Bob has a preference for Honduran, he should take up
your offer and not hesitate. It is getting really hard (for me, at least)
to get Honduran. And you can bet that the bodies on e-bay were not
Honduran, nor did they look African.
Dave Hajicek
Steve
instruments are a couple of alder Strats (warm), a swamp ash Tele
(bright - I love it!), a hard ash Jazz Bass (pretty bright tone), a
maple Jazz bass (very bright) and a walnut 5-string bass (about like
swamp ash for brightness).
Warmoth is using African mahogany these days, and they claim the tone is
pretty warm. Based on handling the woods, I think Khaya is going to be
a little brighter than Honduran.
--Steve
Steve
joined at the center line, 1-5/8" thick.
--Steve in Roseville
Bob
wrote:
>I just built the bodies and shipped them to customers. My personal
>instruments are a couple of alder Strats (warm), a swamp ash Tele
>(bright - I love it!), a hard ash Jazz Bass (pretty bright tone), a
>maple Jazz bass (very bright) and a walnut 5-string bass (about like
>swamp ash for brightness).
I'm not a big fan of swamp ash in general. Nice for clean chords but
I've never had any luck with even slightly overdriven sounds (and I'm
not a heavy overdrive user or shredder).
>Warmoth is using African mahogany these days, and they claim the tone is
>pretty warm. Based on handling the woods, I think Khaya is going to be
>a little brighter than Honduran.
Yeah, that's what I've heard as well. I've also spoken to Tommy at USA
Custom Guitars, and I trust his opinion (far more than the current
Warmoth crew). If memory serves, Tommy said that a lot of
African/Khaya sounds warm but can tend more toward swamp ash territory
as compared to Honduran.
I'd love to find other types of wood with the sound that I've heard
from good Honduran mahogany guitars. Doesn't matter what the wood
looks like. Basswood is used by many who want to roll off the top, but
I find that's all it does...no real richness and depth to the tone.
(Of course you acoustic guys can't use it anyway, cause it's like
balsa).
I love the redwood tops on Lowden guitars--very nice, complex sound.
I've always wondered how that would translate to solid body. But that
would probably be an expensive experiment. Another very dent-prone
wood, but wouldn't matter quite as much for a solid body.
Korina has a rep for sounding 'close to mahogany' but I've also heard
that it can be bright and swamp-ash-y.
Rosewood should sound good, but I haven't heard many favorable
comments about rosewood solid bodies. Perhaps because they're anvils,
but some say they're bright. Surprising.
Goncalo Alves supposedly has a darker, dense sound, but I've only ever
seen it used for necks. Not sure if anyone has used it for solid
bodies.
I've also been curious about pine. Not sure why no one seems to use
it. Maybe it's tough to work with.
Among normal woods, I do like alder. But of course I'm already stocked
up on all the alder strats that I need. <g>
Bob
wrote:
>Just one point to clarify my offer - this would be a 2-piece body,
>joined at the center line, 1-5/8" thick.
>
>--Steve in Roseville
How thick is a regular strat? I should know that. Probably did at one
time. <g>
I will email you about that later, Steve.
Steve
2002. When I first started, I was building parts instruments, and all of
the bodies I bought (whether used or new) were all 1-5/8" thick, so
that's the thickness I used when I started making my own. The used
Fender MIM bass body I bought once was also 1-5/8"
When I want to reduce weight and chambering is not an option, I've been
known to reduce thickness of a bass body to 1-1/2"
--Steve in Roseville
JimLowther
> "Bob" <b...@nope.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f1pcg5hiebgr9crvp...@4ax.com...
>
> > Is there any easy way to tell Honduran mahogany from other types?
> > (African, etc)
>
> > Also, any opinions on how they differ tonally?
>
> Ask the person you are buying the wood from. �If you can't trust him, don't
> buy. �LMII has a good description and pictures. �Honduran usually has
> pronounced grain and pores (but so does African). �The African tends to have
> more pronounced stripes.
>
>
> The African is more easily available these days. �Honduran is getting hard
> to find at times. The African has the reputation for not being "real"
> Mahogany. �But I don't agree. �I have stock of both for my own use, as well
> as some Asian (Sapele) Mahogany.
>
> I see a number of name brand guitars (e.g. Taylor) are using African. �This
> is not a criticism. �I think it looks very attractive and more interesting
> than Honduran. �The Asian I have is kind of bland looking with a less
> pronounced grain and pores and usually a lighter color.
>
> Sound wise, I think there is more variation between individual boards than
> between species. �Also, construction is probably more important in bringing
> out the tone you want than which type of Mahogany.
>
> So it comes down to appearance (or maybe price or availability), in my
> thinking.
>
> Dave Hajicek
BTW, I have never really liked the appearance of heavily "striped" or
"banded" Mahogany type woods, especially on the back of an acoustic.
It seems just about impossible to bookmatch in all three demensions,
and the visual result is a back in which one half is sort of the
negative image of the other. This actually is what prompted my
question about using dissimilar wood on the back and sides.
David Hajicek
"JimLowther" <JimLo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a4ed1bfe-a4b2-437f...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 22, 12:12?am, "David Hajicek" <haji...@skypoint.com> wrote:
BTW, I have never really liked the appearance of heavily "striped" or
"banded" Mahogany type woods, especially on the back of an acoustic.
It seems just about impossible to bookmatch in all three demensions,
and the visual result is a back in which one half is sort of the
negative image of the other. This actually is what prompted my
question about using dissimilar wood on the back and sides.
Best wishes,
Dr. Jim Lowther
++++++++++++
I was at a Chinese joint two weeks ago. The large tables were some great
(but flat sawn) H. Mahogany and the2" wide edges of the tables were Indian
Rosewood. He had maybe 15 of those tables in the joint. The finish brought
out the colors wonderfully.
I told the guy how much I liked his tables. I don't think he quite knew how
to take that. Some kind of weirdo. ;>)
Dave Hajicek
JimLowther
> "JimLowther" <JimLowt...@aol.com> wrote in message
I am amazed of how much good tonewood in years past went into table
and doors and such. I know of an exterior door at my school that is
solid H. Mahogany (painted white to match the others). I remember
once seeing a office door in an older building made of figured Koa.
Now I would never demolish a nice piece of furniture for wood, but it
is hard for me to get sentimental about doors.
David Hajicek
On Dec 30, 10:35?pm, "David Hajicek" <haji...@skypoint.com> wrote:
> "JimLowther" <JimLowt...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a4ed1bfe-a4b2-437f...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 22, 12:12?am, "David Hajicek" <haji...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>
> BTW, I have never really liked the appearance of heavily "striped" or
> "banded" Mahogany type woods, especially on the back of an acoustic.
> It seems just about impossible to bookmatch in all three demensions,
> and the visual result is a back in which one half is sort of the
> question about using dissimilar wood on the back and sides.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dr. Jim Lowther
>
> ++++++++++++
>
> (but flat sawn) H. Mahogany and the2" wide edges of the tables were Indian
> out the colors wonderfully.
>
> how
> to take that. ?Some kind of weirdo. ?;>)
>
> Dave Hajicek
I am amazed of how much good tonewood in years past went into table
and doors and such. I know of an exterior door at my school that is
solid H. Mahogany (painted white to match the others). I remember
once seeing a office door in an older building made of figured Koa.
Now I would never demolish a nice piece of furniture for wood, but it
is hard for me to get sentimental about doors.
Best wishes,
Dr. Jim Lowther
============
Maybe you can work a deal. Supply them a "better" door in return for that
crappy old door because you might have a use for the wood. ;>)
Dave Hajicek