Boiling/Soaking Trough and Side Bending Mehods

[Allen]

Hello all.
I'm about to embark on a spiritual journey; the construction of an
acoustic guitar. I have meditated long and patiently on side bending
methods and have decided to experiment with both pipe bending and form
bending. I would like to try boiling some of the wood.
In Irving Sloan's slender, but informative, CLASSIC GUITAR
CONSTRUCTION, he prescribes a 32" x 4" x 6" trough, "...made of 24
gauge galvanized tin and soldered with soft solder," for boiling wood.
There is a photograph of one in the book, "...made by a tin smith for
ten dollars."
Mr. Sloan's book was published in 1966 and what cost him $10
now costs, according to my local tin smith, "at least" $75. Does
this price sound reasonable? If not, then could someone suggest
another source for this simple, sturdy device?
Perhaps an exchange is in order on the merits of bending
soaked wood on a pipe as opposed to fitting boiled wood to a form. I
am not interested in whether one method is thought to be "more
authentic" than another; rather, I would like some feedback on the
benefits and drawbacks, the pit-falls and the quality of result one
can expect using either method.
Thank you, in advance, for your thoughts. Between all our
fine minds a rich and thoughtful text cannot but emerge.
Peace.
Allen

[Betty Lee]

A third option you may not have considered is Charles Fox's "universal
Side Bender". A "kit" is available from LMI, though I can't vouch for it
one way or the other.

Pipe bending is preferable to form bending for several reasons:

1. you don't have to wait a day or two for each side to dry on the form.

2. there will be a fair amount of spring-back with the form, which will
have to be bent on a pipe anyway to conform to the correct shape (i.e.
remove the spring-back)

3. there is potentially greater risk of breaking the side on a form

4. you need not invest in a boiling trough (I still use a piece of scrap
pipe that cost me under $5)

5. for each shape you make, you need to create a new form

The major disadvantage with a pipe is that it requires a certain amount
of "feel" and practice to do. In other words, practice on scrap first.

Charles Tauber

On

[Mark Middleton]

Allen wrote in article <331f4cd3...@news.virginia.edu>...

> Hello all.
> I'm about to embark on a spiritual journey; the construction of an
> acoustic guitar. I have meditated long and patiently on side bending
> methods and have decided to experiment with both pipe bending and form
> bending. I would like to try boiling some of the wood.
> In Irving Sloan's slender, but informative, CLASSIC GUITAR
> CONSTRUCTION, he prescribes a 32" x 4" x 6" trough, "...made of 24
> gauge galvanized tin and soldered with soft solder," for boiling wood.
> There is a photograph of one in the book, "...made by a tin smith for
> ten dollars."
> Mr. Sloan's book was published in 1966 and what cost him $10
> now costs, according to my local tin smith, "at least" $75. Does
> this price sound reasonable? If not, then could someone suggest
> another source for this simple, sturdy device?

-------- (snip)------------

Allen,

You can use a piece of aluminum roof flashing 18" wide and bent it to form
a trough suitable for boiling guitar sides. The flashing is available in
most any hardware store at a reasonable price. The aluminum is soft and
easily bent by hand. It does not require a sheet metal break to bend, but
it is best to bend it against a straight edge. The ends of the trough
should be bent in such a way that it will hold water. Take a look at the
folds on any chinese carry-out box for the right idea. The soft metal and
thin gauge cause this to be a little on the flimsy side but it could be
easily reinforced. The aluminum can be soldered with aluminum solder and
flux if you have a good hot iron or small torch but it is not really
necessary to simply hold water. As long as it remains filled with water it
will boil wood without any problems.

Good Luck,
Mark

[Unknown]

>The ends of the trough
>should be bent in such a way that it will hold water. Take a look at the
>folds on any chinese carry-out box for the right idea.

>Mark

M,
Ingenious. Well done. Thank you.

A

[Jim M. Holler]

All this talk of boiling! I do not boil any side material before
bending. I have bent Indian and Brazilian rosewoos, cocobola, bibinga,
mahogany, cherry, curly maple.... ect. Use any "tank" that will
hold water. I fill it with hot tap water and soak the wood for 20 mins.
Add 5 mins for harder woods like Brazilian, cocobola and bibinga. This
soaking is plenty preperation for any bending proces. I have pipe bent,
and form bent with this method. I use and Oberholtz form for my
classical guitars and a LMI side bender for steel strinng guitars. I
have yet to break a side in the bending process. You do not tend to
lose as much color with the soaking as you will in boiling. I do not
use any stains in my finist so a color change in the sides wil be
noticable on my guitars.

Jim Holler, Luthier
Trinity Guitars
2089 Camp St.
Jamestown, 14701 3/8/97 (t

[Roger Sorensen]

Although I do not consider myself an expert, my "boiling trough"
consists of a plastic wallpaper dipping tray that I got at the hardware
store when I wallpapered my kitchen. It is about 5" x 36" and I fill it
with hot water from the bath tub and let is soak for a little while.

[John How]

Jim M. Holler wrote:
>
> All this talk of boiling! I do not boil any side material before
> bending. I have bent Indian and Brazilian rosewoos, cocobola, bibinga,
> mahogany, cherry, curly maple.... ect. Use any "tank" that will
> hold water. I fill it with hot tap water and soak the wood for 20 mins.
> Add 5 mins for harder woods like Brazilian, cocobola and bibinga. This
> soaking is plenty preperation for any bending proces. I have pipe
> bent, and form bent with this method. I use and Oberholtz form for my
> classical guitars and a LMI side bender for steel strinng guitars. I
> have yet to break a side in the bending process. You do not tend to
> lose as much color with the soaking as you will in boiling. I do not
> use any stains in my finist so a color change in the sides wil be
> noticable on my guitars.
>
> Jim Holler, Luthier
> Trinity Guitars
> 2089 Camp St.
> Jamestown, 14701 3/8/97 (t

I agree with this fellow, you can soak it in the bath tub for 20 minutes
or so if your going to bend on a pipe or bending iron. If your using
something like the universal side bender all you need to do is run it
under
some tap water. When bending wood such as curly maple, if you where to
boil
it would fall apart on the bending iron. The water is just there to keep
the
wood from scorching and to carry the heat into the wood, the heat is
what
causes the wood fibers to slide past each other on the inside curve and
bend.

Good luck, John How

[Betty Lee]

Ditto. I don't even soak the wood before bending - I just surface wet it.

Charles Tauber

On 8 Mar 1997, Jim M. Holler wrote:

> All this talk of boiling! I do not boil any side material before
> bending. I have bent Indian and Brazilian rosewoos, cocobola, bibinga,
> mahogany, cherry, curly maple.... ect. Use any "tank" that will
> hold water. I fill it with hot tap water and soak the wood for 20 mins.
> Add 5 mins for harder woods like Brazilian, cocobola and bibinga. This
> soaking is plenty preperation for any bending proces. I have pipe bent,
> and form bent with this method. I use and Oberholtz form for my
> classical guitars and a LMI side bender for steel strinng guitars. I
> have yet to break a side in the bending process. You do not tend to
> lose as much color with the soaking as you will in boiling. I do not
> use any stains in my finist so a color change in the sides wil be
> noticable on my guitars.
>
> Jim Holler, Luthier
> Trinity Guitars
> 2089 Camp St.
> Jamestown, 14701 3/8/97 (t
>
>

.

[R & A Whitaker]

Richard Wilson wrote:

>
> On Thu, 6 Mar 1997 23:37:21 GMT, Allen wrote:
>
> >Hello all.
> >I'm about to embark on a spiritual journey; the construction of an
> >acoustic guitar. I have meditated long and patiently on side bending
> >methods and have decided to experiment with both pipe bending and form
> >bending. I would like to try boiling some of the wood.
> > In Irving Sloan's slender, but informative, CLASSIC GUITAR
> >CONSTRUCTION, he prescribes a 32" x 4" x 6" trough, "...made of 24
> >gauge galvanized tin and soldered with soft solder," for boiling wood.
> >There is a photograph of one in the book, "...made by a tin smith for
> >ten dollars."
> > Mr. Sloan's book was published in 1966 and what cost him $10
> >now costs, according to my local tin smith, "at least" $75. Does
> >this price sound reasonable? If not, then could someone suggest
> >another source for this simple, sturdy device?

> > Perhaps an exchange is in order on the merits of bending
> >soaked wood on a pipe as opposed to fitting boiled wood to a form. I
> >am not interested in whether one method is thought to be "more
> >authentic" than another; rather, I would like some feedback on the
> >benefits and drawbacks, the pit-falls and the quality of result one
> >can expect using either method.
> > Thank you, in advance, for your thoughts. Between all our
> >fine minds a rich and thoughtful text cannot but emerge.
> > Peace.
> > Allen
>

> I have been building mountian dulcimers for 23 years and have made
> over 4000 of them. I boil the sides for 2-3 hours and clamp them to a
> form and let dry for about 2 - 5 days. I read Sloan's book back when
> I began and based my method roughly on his. I have never had a
> problem using this method other then the occaisional side that breaks
> during the bending process. It is very efficient, especially when you
> construct more than one instrument at a time like I do. I have 6
> forms which hold 3 sides so I bend 18 at a time.
>
> Instead of using Sloans plans for the trough, I went to the farm store
> and purchased a Pig trough (about $15). They're cheap and they last a
> long time. I use a propane camp stove and a 30lb bottle of lp gas. For
> the lid I use aluminium foil. I failed to touch up paint one trough
> about 10 years ago and it rusted out but this one is in like new
> condition.
>
> I tried the heat bending method once in the first year using a torch
> heating up a piece of exhaust pipe. I recall that the process worked
> fine but for my situation I would rather boil enough sides for 9
> dulcimers and build other parts while this boiling is in progress.
> Also, I feel that you can get a more symetrical instrument using a
> well built form. Tone-wise, I produce a very rich well rounded
> instrument. I don't beleive this process is a problem where tone is
> concerned.
>
> Hope this helps. Richard Wilson. Diamond Designs. Manitou Beach,
> Michigan.

I'm glad that this way of doing it works for your application, but if
you are ocasionally breaking a side on a dulcimer it would be a little
harder to do it your way on a tight waisted guitar. This is assuming
that your dulcimers are shaped in the most traditional shapes. Also it
has been my experience that maple with high curl content will almost
fall apart when boiled very much. I think that I agree with Charles
Taubers' take on the subject. I don't want to have to wait so long for
the sides to dry out.
Ray Whitaker

[Richard Wilson]

[Betty Lee]

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, R & A Whitaker wrote:

> Richard Wilson wrote:
> >
> > I have been building mountian dulcimers for 23 years and have made
> > over 4000 of them. I boil the sides for 2-3 hours and clamp them to a
> > form and let dry for about 2 - 5 days. I read Sloan's book back when
> > I began and based my method roughly on his. I have never had a
> > problem using this method other then the occaisional side that breaks
> > during the bending process. It is very efficient, especially when you
> > construct more than one instrument at a time like I do. I have 6
> > forms which hold 3 sides so I bend 18 at a time.
>

> I'm glad that this way of doing it works for your application, but if
> you are ocasionally breaking a side on a dulcimer it would be a little
> harder to do it your way on a tight waisted guitar. This is assuming
> that your dulcimers are shaped in the most traditional shapes. Also it
> has been my experience that maple with high curl content will almost
> fall apart when boiled very much. I think that I agree with Charles
> Taubers' take on the subject. I don't want to have to wait so long for
> the sides to dry out.
> Ray Whitaker
>
>

Obviously, Richard's method works fine.

For the roughly 150 dulcimers that I made, I adapted Charles Fox's
Universal Side Bender to suit dulcimer sides. It worked well, giving two
dry, bent, ready to use sides in about 30 minutes per bender.

Charles Tauber

.

[Wawawayne]

Have you tried a garden supply store for galvanized window boxes? You
might find one of the right length.