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Hide glue clamp time?
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Father Haskell
Sep 18, 2011, 5:49:24 PM9/18/11
to
Hot dead horse glue, not liquid crap. How long to take down the
clamps?
As for HG's frequently cited indefinite shelf life, I confirm. The
sample
I tested was purchased from Woodcraft in January, 1979. Melted down
and brushed on perfectly.
clamps?
As for HG's frequently cited indefinite shelf life, I confirm. The
sample
I tested was purchased from Woodcraft in January, 1979. Melted down
and brushed on perfectly.
alcarruth
Sep 18, 2011, 8:42:07 PM9/18/11
to
I was told to clamp for two hours. I'm sure that's conservative. In a
demo one time I did a rub joint with some cutoff brace stock, planed
down level. I left the two pieces on the bench for about fifteen
minutes, clamped one in the vice, and whacked the other with a hammer.
I got 100% wood shear. Still, better safe...
Alan Carruth / Luthier
demo one time I did a rub joint with some cutoff brace stock, planed
down level. I left the two pieces on the bench for about fifteen
minutes, clamped one in the vice, and whacked the other with a hammer.
I got 100% wood shear. Still, better safe...
Alan Carruth / Luthier
Benoit Meulle-Stef
Sep 19, 2011, 5:16:13 AM9/19/11
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until the next day????
Benoit
Father Haskell
Sep 19, 2011, 4:53:59 PM9/19/11
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about twenty minutes to bond pressure treated wood so
hard that you need a sledge hammer to break the joint.
Not that I'd use it for instrument construction.
Jim McGill
Sep 20, 2011, 11:33:48 PM9/20/11
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Macedonian Tamburas) used to hot hide glue them on and then hold them in
place with hand pressure for 17 minutes (he liked prime numbers). He'd
just put on some music he liked (Bach Organ music usually) and sit there
and meditate while it set up. Never heard of one failing and he put them
on some very strangely curved tops. Of course he fit them so they almost
stayed on by suction before he glued them, that goes without saying
(though I just said it)
Jim
Tom from Texas
Sep 21, 2011, 4:38:48 PM9/21/11
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Tom from Texas
Benoit Meulle-Stef
Sep 22, 2011, 3:27:58 AM9/22/11
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Benoit
David Hajicek
Sep 22, 2011, 12:37:08 PM9/22/11
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"Tom from Texas" <tris...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:5e3038d2-b728-4025...@s20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Benoit has plastic bindings covered (superglue).
For wood, I would use Titebond (probably original because that is what can
be used for bracing), or the Lmii white glue (Martin white glue).
HHG is somewhat brittle and you want the bindings to be able to take abuse.
Dave
alcarruth
Sep 22, 2011, 2:05:35 PM9/22/11
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I've been gluing bindings for several years now with liquid fish glue.
Basically, it's like hot hide glue, but inherently does not gel as it
cools, so you don't have to heat it. Because it doesn't gel, it has a
long working time: on the order of a half hour if the weather is not
too hot and dry. This gives me plenty of time to get all the bindings
taped on and wrap the thing with a 'rubber rope' made from a truck
tire.
Fish glue dries like HHG; hard and a bit brittle. However, it is
tougher, in my limited experience, and quite difficult to get apart
unless you add moisture and heat. It does not seem to be any more
suceptible to humidity than HHG. Some other users have done more
experimentation along these lines, and all the reports I've seen so
far have been good That said, I don't use it for critical structural
joints.
Oh yes: liquid fish glue is _really sticky_. Also, it does'nt smell
like much of anything (unlike sturgeon glue, which smells awful).
Alan Carruth / Luthier
Basically, it's like hot hide glue, but inherently does not gel as it
cools, so you don't have to heat it. Because it doesn't gel, it has a
long working time: on the order of a half hour if the weather is not
too hot and dry. This gives me plenty of time to get all the bindings
taped on and wrap the thing with a 'rubber rope' made from a truck
tire.
Fish glue dries like HHG; hard and a bit brittle. However, it is
tougher, in my limited experience, and quite difficult to get apart
unless you add moisture and heat. It does not seem to be any more
suceptible to humidity than HHG. Some other users have done more
experimentation along these lines, and all the reports I've seen so
far have been good That said, I don't use it for critical structural
joints.
Oh yes: liquid fish glue is _really sticky_. Also, it does'nt smell
like much of anything (unlike sturgeon glue, which smells awful).
Alan Carruth / Luthier
Tom from Texas
Sep 23, 2011, 11:36:26 AM9/23/11
to
have to buy at a time?
Tom (ye got that fish smell, Baby. Where ye been tonight?) from Texas
alcarruth
Sep 23, 2011, 2:10:30 PM9/23/11
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I'm actually still working on a batch that one of my students got
years ago. At that time you had to buy a gallon, iirc, and he gave me
some. I think it's available now in smaller lots, but since I haven't
been looking, I can't tell you where to get it.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
years ago. At that time you had to buy a gallon, iirc, and he gave me
some. I think it's available now in smaller lots, but since I haven't
been looking, I can't tell you where to get it.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
tommyboy
Sep 23, 2011, 2:16:03 PM9/23/11
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On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:05:35 -0700 (PDT), alcarruth
<alca...@aol.com> wrote:
>I've been gluing bindings for several years now with liquid fish glue.
Hello Al,
<alca...@aol.com> wrote:
>I've been gluing bindings for several years now with liquid fish glue.
Could you explain why you use fish glue instead of original Titebond?
Thanks,
tb
Chuck Morrison
Sep 24, 2011, 10:22:46 AM9/24/11
to
I can't answer for Al, but I've been using fish glue for a bit over a
year. I've slowly been moving towards using it for everything on an
instrument. For me It has the following advantages:
1. Not nearly as messy as hhg & cleans up just as easily
2. much longer open time than hhg but still dries quickly
3. dries just as hard as hhg and has the other advantages without the
hassle or paraphernalia
4. Better tack than titebond, doesn't slide around as much under a
clamp
5. Better open time than titebond
6. Easier to "redo" a joint than titebond
7. Dry color is better than titebond where it shows, like wood binding/
purfling. IMHO
I'm sure there are other reasons. The disadvantage is availability in
smaller quantities, but it comes in quart bottles, so you can split an
order, which is how I got mine.
I keep the titebond and Lmi white around for jigs.
On Sep 23, 12:16 pm, tommyboy <to...@boy.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:05:35 -0700 (PDT), alcarruth
>
year. I've slowly been moving towards using it for everything on an
instrument. For me It has the following advantages:
1. Not nearly as messy as hhg & cleans up just as easily
2. much longer open time than hhg but still dries quickly
3. dries just as hard as hhg and has the other advantages without the
hassle or paraphernalia
4. Better tack than titebond, doesn't slide around as much under a
clamp
5. Better open time than titebond
6. Easier to "redo" a joint than titebond
7. Dry color is better than titebond where it shows, like wood binding/
purfling. IMHO
I'm sure there are other reasons. The disadvantage is availability in
smaller quantities, but it comes in quart bottles, so you can split an
order, which is how I got mine.
I keep the titebond and Lmi white around for jigs.
On Sep 23, 12:16 pm, tommyboy <to...@boy.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:05:35 -0700 (PDT), alcarruth
>
David Hajicek
Sep 24, 2011, 4:49:38 PM9/24/11
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Chuck,
I see Lee Valley has fish glue. Is this the same stuff?
Dave
"Chuck Morrison" <chuck.m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7f61aeb7-be1b-4ae3...@t11g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
I see Lee Valley has fish glue. Is this the same stuff?
Dave
"Chuck Morrison" <chuck.m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7f61aeb7-be1b-4ae3...@t11g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
alcarruth
Sep 24, 2011, 5:26:09 PM9/24/11
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Yes: I believe the Lee Valley stuff is the same as what I've been
using.
I use fish glue for binding specifically for the long working time. I
used to use Titebond, and it was often a stuggle to get everything
taped down and wrapped with the rubber rope before it started to set
up. I would do the back, and then unwrap it, and do the top. The rope
is a fair amount of effort, too.
With the fish glue I can glue and tape both the top and the back, and
then wrap once, without coming close to exceeding the working time.
The one drawback is that you have to leave it clamped for at least a
couple of hours: we undid one in about an hour and a half, and the
bindings were trying to peel loose at one end. To be safe, I just plan
it so binding is the last thing I do at the end of a day/class, and it
can sit over night to really set up.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
using.
I use fish glue for binding specifically for the long working time. I
used to use Titebond, and it was often a stuggle to get everything
taped down and wrapped with the rubber rope before it started to set
up. I would do the back, and then unwrap it, and do the top. The rope
is a fair amount of effort, too.
With the fish glue I can glue and tape both the top and the back, and
then wrap once, without coming close to exceeding the working time.
The one drawback is that you have to leave it clamped for at least a
couple of hours: we undid one in about an hour and a half, and the
bindings were trying to peel loose at one end. To be safe, I just plan
it so binding is the last thing I do at the end of a day/class, and it
can sit over night to really set up.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
David Hajicek
Sep 24, 2011, 5:51:31 PM9/24/11
to
"alcarruth" <alca...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:05349dac-e9b5-4ecc...@f8g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
Dave
Chuck Morrison
Sep 25, 2011, 9:45:07 AM9/25/11
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What I use is labeled "Norland". It may be the same, but Lee Valley is
labeled "LV". I doubt there's much, if any difference. I put most of
it in the fridge and just have a small amount in a small Elmer's
squeeze bottle in the shop. I've had HHG go bad but so far I haven't
had fish glue go bad.
labeled "LV". I doubt there's much, if any difference. I put most of
it in the fridge and just have a small amount in a small Elmer's
squeeze bottle in the shop. I've had HHG go bad but so far I haven't
had fish glue go bad.
Chuck
On Sep 24, 3:51 pm, "David Hajicek" <haji...@skypoint.com> wrote:
> "alcarruth" <alcarr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > Yes: I believe the Lee Valley stuff is the same as what I've been
> > using.
> > Alan Carruth / Luthier
alcarruth
Sep 25, 2011, 1:58:58 PM9/25/11
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Mine's been out on the shelf in the shop for a couple of years with no
issues.
issues.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
Tom from Texas
Sep 26, 2011, 4:40:27 PM9/26/11
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Hey, guys, thanks so much for all this information!! I'm getting
ready to put new binding on the '37 Epi Zenith. I got what I thought
was the same measure as the original. It fits perfectly on the back
but sticks out some across the top so I guess I'll have to do some
sanding there to get it smooth to the top surface. Anyone want to do
a roadtrip to Texas to help out? I'll supply all the beer and chili
ye want.
BTW, the book from Stew-Mac says I need a explosion-proof fan and
lights. I was planning on using my shed which is a stand alone one-
car garage. I was gonna open the big roll-up door and open the
backdoor, then use a home-style fan. Am I playin' with my life here?
Tom from Texas.... still breathin' and hopin' to keep it that way
David Hajicek
Sep 26, 2011, 6:05:53 PM9/26/11
to
news:9c36e20c-3ca9-4889...@n12g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Hey, guys, thanks so much for all this information!! I'm getting
ready to put new binding on the '37 Epi Zenith. I got what I thought
was the same measure as the original. It fits perfectly on the back
but sticks out some across the top so I guess I'll have to do some
sanding there to get it smooth to the top surface. Anyone want to do
a roadtrip to Texas to help out? I'll supply all the beer and chili
ye want.
BTW, the book from Stew-Mac says I need a explosion-proof fan and
lights. I was planning on using my shed which is a stand alone one-
car garage. I was gonna open the big roll-up door and open the
backdoor, then use a home-style fan. Am I playin' with my life here?
Tom from Texas.... still breathin' and hopin' to keep it that way
+++++++++++
The Stew-mac thing is correct if you are spraying lacquer. After all, it is
mostly lacquer thinner, which ends up in the air.
Can you spell fuel-air-explosive?
But if you open the garage door, don't have any open flames or sparks and
wear a NIOSH mask, you should be ok (don't quote me when you blow up).
Except for bugs and stuff in the air, you are better off doing it outside.
You can get overspray on everything in your garage. If you are using the
spray cans, that is not as big a problem but the solvents in the can are
worse than lacquer thinner. So a respirator isn't a bad idea.
Dave
Hey, guys, thanks so much for all this information!! I'm getting
ready to put new binding on the '37 Epi Zenith. I got what I thought
was the same measure as the original. It fits perfectly on the back
but sticks out some across the top so I guess I'll have to do some
sanding there to get it smooth to the top surface. Anyone want to do
a roadtrip to Texas to help out? I'll supply all the beer and chili
ye want.
BTW, the book from Stew-Mac says I need a explosion-proof fan and
lights. I was planning on using my shed which is a stand alone one-
car garage. I was gonna open the big roll-up door and open the
backdoor, then use a home-style fan. Am I playin' with my life here?
Tom from Texas.... still breathin' and hopin' to keep it that way
The Stew-mac thing is correct if you are spraying lacquer. After all, it is
mostly lacquer thinner, which ends up in the air.
Can you spell fuel-air-explosive?
But if you open the garage door, don't have any open flames or sparks and
wear a NIOSH mask, you should be ok (don't quote me when you blow up).
Except for bugs and stuff in the air, you are better off doing it outside.
You can get overspray on everything in your garage. If you are using the
spray cans, that is not as big a problem but the solvents in the can are
worse than lacquer thinner. So a respirator isn't a bad idea.
Dave
Jack Campin
Sep 26, 2011, 8:30:37 PM9/26/11
to
>> the book from Stew-Mac says I need a explosion-proof fan and lights.
> The Stew-mac thing is correct if you are spraying lacquer. After all,
> it is mostly lacquer thinner, which ends up in the air.
> Can you spell fuel-air-explosive?
> But if you open the garage door, don't have any open flames or sparks
> and wear a NIOSH mask, you should be ok (don't quote me when you blow
> up). Except for bugs and stuff in the air, you are better off doing
> it outside.
One of the most alarming work processes I have ever seen was a luthier
> it is mostly lacquer thinner, which ends up in the air.
> Can you spell fuel-air-explosive?
> But if you open the garage door, don't have any open flames or sparks
> and wear a NIOSH mask, you should be ok (don't quote me when you blow
> up). Except for bugs and stuff in the air, you are better off doing
> it outside.
in Konya. He made both sazes and uds and had a pretty high turnover.
To get the finish on, he had a pole sticking out from the first floor
of the building, right out over the street. He did the lacquering
at the end of the day when there was no traffic. Hang a bunch of
instruments off the pole, stand back a few yards, and let fly with
what I think was a converted backpack weed sprayer. It let off an
enormous cloud of lacquer that drifted as high as the building. You
could smell it a block away. One stray spark and his workshop would
have been a smoking hole in the ground.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
David Hajicek
Sep 26, 2011, 11:28:35 PM9/26/11
to
"Jack Campin" <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bogus-6FA942....@four.schnuerpel.eu...
it might drip and run a little bit.
There are commercial airless sprayers. Mostly for house painting and the
like. Mater of fact, I think I have some of those around here some place.
Maybe I should give one a try just to see what happens. I wouldn't expect
much, but who knows?
Dave
alcarruth
Sep 27, 2011, 1:54:07 PM9/27/11
to
Jack's post reminded me of Richard Schneider's account of sitting in
the alley behind Pimental's shop in Mexico City, wet sanding guitars
using gasoline as the lubricant.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
the alley behind Pimental's shop in Mexico City, wet sanding guitars
using gasoline as the lubricant.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
David Hajicek
Sep 27, 2011, 5:48:28 PM9/27/11
to
news:f0c52d37-0d32-4c86...@j19g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
ROTFL. What is the average lifetime of a luthier there?
Kerosene would have been better in many ways.
I use Mineral Spirits (oderless paint thinner) for a sanding lubricant or
else soap and water, depending.
Dave Hajicek
Kerosene would have been better in many ways.
I use Mineral Spirits (oderless paint thinner) for a sanding lubricant or
else soap and water, depending.
Dave Hajicek
Clifford Heath
Sep 28, 2011, 4:03:52 AM9/28/11
to
On 09/28/11 07:48, David Hajicek wrote:
> "alcarruth"<alca...@aol.com> wrote...
Gasolene isn't that much more explosive than many other spirits.
The village silversmiths of Burma use vapours taken from the top of a
slightly pressurised can of gas to feed their soldering torches. You
can smell a small amount of gas in the air, and there's obviously flame
present, yet they seem to survive. The work-rooms are open to the breeze,
of course.
Clifford Heath.
> "alcarruth"<alca...@aol.com> wrote...
>> Jack's post reminded me of Richard Schneider's account of sitting in
>> the alley behind Pimental's shop in Mexico City, wet sanding guitars
>> using gasoline as the lubricant.
>> the alley behind Pimental's shop in Mexico City, wet sanding guitars
>> using gasoline as the lubricant.
> ROTFL. What is the average lifetime of a luthier there?
As long as you don't let the vapours reach the LEL, you should be ok.
Gasolene isn't that much more explosive than many other spirits.
The village silversmiths of Burma use vapours taken from the top of a
slightly pressurised can of gas to feed their soldering torches. You
can smell a small amount of gas in the air, and there's obviously flame
present, yet they seem to survive. The work-rooms are open to the breeze,
of course.
Clifford Heath.
David Hajicek
Sep 28, 2011, 11:21:35 AM9/28/11
to
"Clifford Heath" <no....@please.net> wrote in message
news:4e82d4e8$0$2444$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
it is pretty nasty stuff from that point of view.
Gasoline would ignite at lower concentrations than say kerosene. Also it is
hard to get the kerosene to vaporize in the first place whereas gasoline
evaporates quickly. Those are some of the reasons it is used in cars.
Dave Hajicek
alcarruth
Sep 28, 2011, 1:16:11 PM9/28/11
to
Iirc, Schneider died fairly young, of some form of skin cancer....
Alan Carruth / Luthier
Alan Carruth / Luthier
Nick Odell
Sep 30, 2011, 3:11:25 AM9/30/11
to
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 22:28:35 -0500, "David Hajicek"
<haj...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>There are commercial airless sprayers. Mostly for house painting and the
>like. Mater of fact, I think I have some of those around here some place.
>Maybe I should give one a try just to see what happens. I wouldn't expect
>much, but who knows?
>
I used one of those when I was building a lot of
<haj...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>There are commercial airless sprayers. Mostly for house painting and the
>like. Mater of fact, I think I have some of those around here some place.
>Maybe I should give one a try just to see what happens. I wouldn't expect
>much, but who knows?
>
'hand-built-but-low-cost' Appalacian Dulcimers a number of years ago.
I used it essentially to build shellac coats before finally flatting
and then rubbing out with the usual alcohol/oil pad. The final result
was perfectly acceptable and saved a lot of time over traditional
methods however I was never tempted to use the same technique to
french polish classical/early guitars in the same way.
Nick
David Hajicek
Sep 30, 2011, 12:09:33 PM9/30/11
to
"Nick Odell" <gurzhfvp...@ntlworld.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:37qa87l5ft8haqbd6...@4ax.com...
Thanks Nick.
That's good to know. It would reduce the amount of overspray that is a
problem in my shop as well as a waste of finish material. It could be
useful for "build" of the finish. Then go to a proper sprayer after that?
Dave
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