Glue for Violin Fingerboard
Fritz
was wondering if anyone has an educated opinion of the required glue
strength for a violin fingerboard? I have read Wake, Strobel etc. but
don't find much data on this
TNX
Fritz
Peter Schug
sonn...@berkshire.net wrote on 12/12/06 5:54 PM:
I got a pound or so can of ground up hide glue from Behlin (I think that was
the name) and I have no idea what the strength of it is, but I had to take
the top off right after I put it on, and even though I had used the glue a
bit thin. (the top is supposed to remain easy to remove) Despite that I had
a tough time removing it. Like probably about 45 minutes of careful work
while the top make the most horrendous cracking noises.
On the other hand, I made my fingerboard removeable by only gluing it at
three spots, and it came off when my case toppled over. I had just taken it
out of my locker at work, stood it on end and a second later it fell over.
The fingerboard was off and I could see that my three spots of glue had
never penetrated the ebony. It is still on that way since I still want to do
some work on both the neck and fingerboard, but haven't got the time.
I think if you want the fingerboard to stay on it would pay to heat it
before glueing so the glue has time to penetrate a bit before it starts to
gel.
I wouldn't worry about the details of how strong this particular glue is,
good grades of hide glue are probably oll stranger than they have to be.
That said I will add that seams open over time not due to glue drying out,
but because the wood works with changes in humidity and where the grain of
the top or back and the ribs run at a right angle the joint will come apart
over time because the wood fibers themselves start to tear on a microscopic
level. I didn't get this out of any violin book, but from the writings of L.
Francis Herreschoff. He described the deterioration of glue jointe on boats
in "The Common Sense of Yacht Design" and looking at the pattern of failure
on violins and my cello I have to conclude that the failure is as he
described it in his aptly named books.
Pete
Pete
Fritz
I used Behlin's a lot for repairing pianos and organs. They do not
specify the strength, nor whether or not it is bone or hide based glue.
Glue starts at 190g, which is much stronger than any wood, so I am
predisposed to buy that, however I know that some of the purveyers of
violin glue recommend the 315g strength. I am inclined to think I
should use 315g for the neck which one does not often pry, but 190g for
the belly and fingerboard.
I had my violin rebuilt professionally and did not like the work, so
I am proceeding myself this time (I build harpsichcords but I suppose I
can make minor violin adjustments). After the professional rebuild, the
fingerboard promptly fell off. An inspection revealed what appeared to
be a "cold" joint. Also the glue was only spotted as you mentioned.
Most of the tombs on this topic seem to indicate spreading the glue
evenly on the whole contact area of the fingerboard. I will probably do
this, and thus I am considering using the weaker 190g stuff. You make a
good point about ebony-it is basically non porous like bakelite
plastic. I use a few 150W lightbulbs in "clam shell" lamps to warm up a
glue job.
One big problem with any hide glue procurement is the lack of
vendors who sell based upon strength. Here in the US I am aware of only
2 vendors, who sell only wholesale. There is a violin vendor in Canada
who is very nice to deal with, however I hate to pay 12$ postage for $5
worth of glue.
Thanks for your note
Cheers
Fritz
bill
I got my hide glue from Kremer Pigmente in New York (mail order).
http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/englisch/infosheet.htm#hideglue
As you can see, they sell 240 Bloomgram strength. But I thought mine
was 295. It is in storage now so can't check it.
This type was recommended to me by a Geigenbaumeister not far from me,
who is highly regarded by professional musicians in New England and
beyond.
I have also read that the extremely high strength types are actually
not desirable (counter-productive) for violin construction. See below
links and quotes.
Here's a link that I found extremely useful in preparing for my first
ever foray into hide glue. (I am a trained professional boatbuilder so
epoxy, polyester, weldwood, plastic resin glue, urea formaldyhide,
phenolic are more my experience):
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/hideglue.html
(Note that this guy uses 192 gram strength).
Another link that I found extremely useful for that first foray:
http://www.player-care.com/hide_q-a.html
Another I read:
http://www.deller.com/newpage8.htm
and another:
http://www.violins.on.ca/luthier/glue.html
This last guy states, "I recommend the medium strength (315 gram
strength) glue. All strengths of hide glue are capable of making a
joint stronger than the wood. The major differences in the glue is the
working time. The strong glue (380 gram) tacks faster, and the weaker
glue (195 gram) gives more working time. In my opinion, the 315 gram
gives the best of both worlds, and IS rated stronger than the weak
one."
And another:
http://www.inthewoodshop.org/2005/hideglue.shtml
who states, "Hide glue is graded by its gram strength and this can vary
from under 100 gm to over 500 gm. Gram strength is measured in grams
(gm) and is equivalent to how many grams of force needed to push a half
inch plunger down into a solution of glue, where the protein level in
the solution is 12.5% by weight and the temperature is 10° Centigrade.
That's more information than you wanted to know but you'll need it
when choosing what strength to buy.
"As you decide on a grade of hide glue, remember this important
generalization; as the gram strength of the glue increases, its bond
strength increases but its working time is reduced. Hence a balance
must be struck between strength and open time. Although the hide glue
you find in your average woodworking store may have a gram strength of
250 gm, I prefer a glue closer to 200 gm because I like a little extra
working time before it gels. This is nice when you have a complicated
assembly, or when working with dovetails. Anything less than 150 gm is
too weak for practical woodworking purposes. Being a natural product,
some variation should be expected so when you purchase new glue, make a
test batch in case you need to adjust the recipe."
It was about 2 years ago that I tried it for the first time. My son's
ukulele neck broke off. I fixed it with complete success. Then a few
months later, his sister sat on his fiddle and broke the neck off
*that* instrument cleanly. I glued that back on with complete success.
Both isntruments are going strong.
Roland Hutchinson
> http://www.violins.on.ca/luthier/glue.html
>
> This last guy states, "I recommend the medium strength (315 gram
> strength) glue. All strengths of hide glue are capable of making a
> joint stronger than the wood. The major differences in the glue is the
> working time. The strong glue (380 gram) tacks faster, and the weaker
> glue (195 gram) gives more working time. In my opinion, the 315 gram
> gives the best of both worlds, and IS rated stronger than the weak
> one."
Now someone is going to have to explain to me why you would want glue that
is stronger than the wood in lutherie work.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Fritz
Thanks for all the good information. I will try to get the glue from
Kremer.I am suprised that most of the US luthier dealers don't give
bloom ratings. At any rate I am sure that my violin won't mind if I
sneak in a little 240 instead of 290. I suppose that in the final
analysis, a lot has to do with consitancy of mix, amount of
application, and the type of wood. Usually maple is easier to break
apart then spruce for obvious reasons. I run rather thin for most music
work.
Jeessh- sounds like your kids are rough on instuments. Reminds me of
the stories my friend who did music store repairs used to tell-some
were pretty funny.
PS-Do you build boats in New England? I work out here on Cape Cod for
Woods Hole Oceanographic.
Cheers,
Fritz
Fritz
primarly the strong stuff dries faster. Usually there is no need for
speed in our kind of work, but ocassionally for a really difficult to
clamp setup, one winds up using their hands and speed is valuable.
Bone glue tends to have the faster/stronger rating from my somewhat
limited experience.
Fritz
Peter Schug
sonn...@berkshire.net wrote on 12/12/06 10:43 PM:
I made a Zukermann clavichord a bunch of years ago, and I always wanted to
make a harpsichord, but room and money always seemed to get in the way.
I started out making a viola da gamba and backed down and made a violin
instead. The viola da gamba mold took up a lot of room and I could see where
I might have to give up my bed at some point as the place filled up with
half completed parts. People who live in studio apartements have to think
small.
I wonder if the woman I made the clavichord for ever plays it. I will have
to give her a call one of these days.
Pete
darnton...@gmail.com
up, then clamp fast and hard, with a lot of clamps, you can use the
strongest glue made, and have the board fall off three weeks later
because you squeezed all the glue out and it's as dry as a bone inside
the joint, with no evidence that there was ever any glue there. (How
would I know something like this?)
So I would concentrate on technique, not the glue.
After a decade or so with the high-priced spread, I now will use
whatever is available, and modify my method to suit the glue. As
someone says, below, they're all stronger than the wood, in theory.
-Michael
Roland Hutchinson
> Strength doesn't matter as much as technique. IF you heat everything
> up, then clamp fast and hard, with a lot of clamps, you can use the
> strongest glue made, and have the board fall off three weeks later
> because you squeezed all the glue out and it's as dry as a bone inside
> the joint, with no evidence that there was ever any glue there. (How
> would I know something like this?)
>
> So I would concentrate on technique, not the glue.
>
> After a decade or so with the high-priced spread, I now will use
> whatever is available, and modify my method to suit the glue. As
> someone says, below, they're all stronger than the wood, in theory.
So what am I missing here: I thought that the idea was to have the glue bond
be weaker than the wood, so if the wood shrinks the glue will let go
instead of the wood splitting.
Perhaps the explanation is that the glue only needs to be weaker than the
wood under shear?
Ecnerwal
darnton...@gmail.com wrote:
> After a decade or so with the high-priced spread, I now will use
> whatever is available, and modify my method to suit the glue. As
> someone says, below, they're all stronger than the wood, in theory.
And for easy-access to small quantities:
Someone in the woodworking newsgroups did a nice writeup (some years
ago) on using unflavored cooking gelatin (eg, Knox) as hide glue
(perhaps technically bone glue?) Anyway, easy to get in small amounts,
anytime a grocery store is handy and open, and less nasty-smelling than
some variants of hide glue.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Fritz
strength in gel based glues is measured in terms of "bloom
strength". I am not sure of the technique but I believe it is one of
those NBS techniques. Wood, to my knowledge is not rateable with this
technique thus saying that a glue is "stronger" than a wood is not
entirely accurate.
That said, most strengths of hide glue applied to wood will cause
varying degrees of tearout when prying. It helps to warm and even wet
the glue if possible, further weakening it. If the glue was one of the
weaker ones to begin with the chances are better for a clean break.
(A small number of chips are actully somewhat helpful at times to
realign the parts)
Peter Schug
Lawren...@SOuthernVERmont.NyET wrote on 12/14/06 11:58 AM:
Wake wrote about it, but people who put it to the test said it was pretty
weak.
I don't remember where I read about it having been tested, but I did keep
the gelatin idea in mind for a few years, until I read the test. It doesn't
matter, because almost anyone who knows about it has access to hide glue
anyway. I bought a pound a few years ago and I probably still have more than
fifteen ounces. Whenever I made glue I kept it in a borosilicate glass that
fit my glue pot. When I was done I covered it with saran wrap with a couple
of rubberbands and used it several times. Eventually there would be a spot
of mold and I'd wash it out and start again. I never had as much as an inch
of glue in the glass.
Pete
Pete