violin with crack in neck
Astrid Bierworth
looking to make money, he just feels it should go to better use than to
collect dust. I took it to my teacher for a look. He said there are two
things which make this violin almost worthless. There is a crack right at
the base of the neck which has been repaired. He said there is a
possibility that it can go again. The other is the lack of a label. It
appears there was one at some time but it is gone. Other than that, it
appears to be a fine old instrument. He said to get the neck replaced would
cost around $800 (Cd), and then it could maybe be worth something. There is
absolutely in indication of its age or heritage. The lady had owned it for
maybe 30 years.
Is a repaired crack really enough to make a violin almost worthless?
My teacher suggested if I could buy it off my friend for a hundred dollars
or so, take it to a luthier and have about $300 worth of work done
(cleaning, new bridge, new sound post, new chin rest, new tail piece, etc),
and take my chances on the crack, it might make a nice instrument for me.
(I am an adult beginner with 3 1/2 years under my belt).
Any thoughts on old repaired instruments like this? If I obtained it, it
would not be as an investment or to make money, just hope to make some nice
music with it some day. The instrument I am currently playing is a new
violin I purchased 3 years ago for $400 and is not a bad sounding instrument
for the money, but apparently this old one is overall a better quality
instrument.
Thanks,
Astrid.
Kenneth
<loneoa...@storm.ca> wrote:
>There is
>absolutely in indication of its age or heritage.
Hi Astrid,
Perhaps there is no indication to your teacher, but...
The right person would be likely to know just what the instrument is.
My suggestion would be to find someone in your area who is competent
to appraise the fiddle.
Of course, it might not be worth the repair, but if it is an
instrument of quality the repair you describe might be a very fine
investment.
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
PeteSchug
There are two possibly different things going on here. One is the value of
an instrument with a neck that had a break in it. The other is the
playability of the violin if you are not interested in it as an investment.
Replacing a neck is a lot of work. The question is: how strong is the
repair. If it is high on the heel of the neck, close to the neck itself,
then it will be mechanically weak. The further down the crack is the less
important it becomes. Hide glue is very strong stuff and on well done
repairs where the grain runs parallel it never (well, seldom) comes apart
unless exposed to moisture or some other damaging environment. Seams open up
at the place where the grain of the ribs is 90° to the top or back, but
center seams last hundreds of years.
Yes, I know, luthiers glue tops on with thinned glue, but glue doesn't hold
in cross grain applications because the wood fibers at the joint eventually
fail. Look at unprotected plywood that has been exposed to weather for a few
years.
Since I can't see the violin but your teacher has I would follow his advice.
Pete (who would take a chance himself, but can replace a neck if he had to)
in article c6733b$c93$1...@news.storm.ca, Astrid Bierworth at
loneoa...@storm.ca wrote on 4/21/04 7:20 PM:
Eric Fretheim
You have already received plenty of good advice, but one thing
missing I would consider important. Find a violin maker.
Specifically, find out who is the guy (or gal) in your area who
the professionals go to. I accomplished this years ago by
calling the local symphony orchestra. Bring the violin there
and get a quote, and an opinion. You may have bought a good
player for $400, but there is a good potential here (not a
certainty) for finding a truly satisfactory instrument for the
rest of your life (if you keep playing, I'm betting the $400
instrument is not that.
The lack of a name is not an issue. I have a nameless
instrument that appraised at $1000.00 USD. (by the above
mentioned violin maker) as it turns out to be a
nineteenth-century well-made violin. Not a master instrument,
just a run-of-the-mill violin of the day, but it would be
easily worth the repair you described if it needed it, because
it is just a beautiful player.
You could also temper this with the information you are able to
apply about the previous player. Your friend's late wife owned
the instrument for 30 years. Did she play throughout this
time, or was this just her high-school/college instrument she
never touched again but never parted with? There is a big
difference. Someone who actually plays an instrument for 30
years is a good possibilty to have been playing a much better
instrument than you could buy new for $400 (even if that was
USD instead of CD.)
One last thing. My normal player is of uncertain vintage (it
has no date and a maker I can't locate information on), a
spliced neck (the neck, the pegbox, and the instrument are of
three separate vintages!) and dozens of repairs in various
places. It is appraised at $3000.00 USD because it is, a,
another beautiful player, b, probably dates from the 18th
century (according to the same guy mentioned above) and c, is
made of all good-quality material. These are much more
important issues to me than pedigree, because I'm not
collecting, I'm playing.
--
Regards,
Eric Fretheim
J. Teske
noted that the vast majority of pre 1800 violins have a neck other
than the one they were built with. Changes in bow technology +/-
20 years from that date...that is when the modern recurve bow was
developed...mandated a different type of neck than was customary on
18th century and before violins. In many of them, the scroll was cut
off and spliced onto a new neck. While a certain amount of violins
were never converted and thus are prized by the historic instruments
folks, most were converted included the BIG name violins. New bass
bars were also installed to handle the bigger tone and the increased
string pressure the new bow provided. I haven't noticed any decrease
in the price of Strads because of this change. Whether this change
can be justified in the case of your violin of course only a pro can
advise. I have no idea of what the going rate is for this since I
have never had the need to ask. In one of my orchestras, there is a
lady who had a new neck carved for her cello after it was involved in
an automobile accident with totalled the neck and scroll and left the
rest of the cello mostly unharmed. This lady...a somewhat whimsical
sort...had the luthier carve a gargoyle-like dragon figure in place of
the normal scroll. The gargoyle apparantly was courtesy of the other
guys insurance company.
Jon Teske
Astrid Bierworth
> repair. If it is high on the heel of the neck, close to the neck itself,
> then it will be mechanically weak. The further down the crack is the less
> important it becomes. Hide glue is very strong stuff and on well done
> repairs where the grain runs parallel it never (well, seldom) comes apart
> unless exposed to moisture or some other damaging environment. Seams open
up
> at the place where the grain of the ribs is 90° to the top or back, but
> center seams last hundreds of years.
The crack runs parallel to the base of the neck and looks like it is almost
an extension of the base of the neck. It runs at a 90º angle to the grain
of the wood. My friend does not remember his wife having the violin
repaired, so it was done before they met. She died in 2001 at age 39
(cancer). According to my friend, she did not play it a lot. The crack was
very well repaired, however it is noticeable.
I suggested to my friend that he take it to 3 places. One is a good quality
and honest violin shop. The second is a luthier who makes good quality
violins. If I buy or obtain the instrument, he will be the one to do any
minor repairs for me. The other is a shop that sells violins and is owned
by a fiddle player who also makes a few violins. I suggested he ask them
all what they would give him for the violin, then report back to me. If
they don't want it, then I will offer him $100 for it, have the minor
repairs done and take my chances on the neck. If the neck breaks over time,
I will then spend the bucks to get it replaced if I like the instrument.
I played it for my husband last night (he is an accordion player) and he
said it sounds better than mine. This is with an old set of strings and
repairs that are needed.
Astrid.
PeteSchug
was in a car accident. He took the fingerboard off and after gluing the neck
together he routed a channel in the neck and glued in a piece of wood so
there was something solid running across the break. That plus the finger
board is what is holding that violin neck together. I would love to peek
under the fingerboard and see if this repair has been done in a similar way.
I would trust a fix like that if well done.
Pete
in article c69cfb$8mg$1...@news.storm.ca, Astrid Bierworth at
loneoa...@storm.ca wrote on 4/22/04 4:12 PM:
Tho X. Bui
photos of the repair was amazing to see, and pretty much the only
solution for this type of fracture (other than doing a full neck-graft).
Without that procedure, an end-grain glue job like that wouldn't last long.
I often use the local hospital x-ray facility to do quick check on
internal repairs of various things. This would be an appropriate
application if it is available, and certainly will raise the worth of
the repair--if not the violin.
Tho
PeteSchug wrote:
>
> Henry Strobel wrote about repairing a neck broken like that on a violin that
> was in a car accident. He took the fingerboard off and after gluing the neck
> together he routed a channel in the neck and glued in a piece of wood so
> there was something solid running across the break. That plus the finger
> board is what is holding that violin neck together. I would love to peek
> under the fingerboard and see if this repair has been done in a similar way.
> I would trust a fix like that if well done.
>
> Pete
>
> in article c69cfb$8mg$1...@news.storm.ca, Astrid Bierworth at
> loneoa...@storm.ca wrote on 4/22/04 4:12 PM:
>
> > The crack runs parallel to the base of the neck and looks like it is almost
> > an extension of the base of the neck. It runs at a 90º angle to the grain
> > of the wood. My friend does not remember his wife having the violin
> > repaired, so it was done before they met. She died in 2001 at age 39
> > (cancer). According to my friend, she did not play it a lot. The crack was
> > very well repaired, however it is noticeable.
> > ...
> >
> > Astrid.
> >
> >
Astrid Bierworth
Astrid.
"Tho X. Bui" <bla...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:40886772...@earthlink.net...
Unknown
<loneoa...@storm.ca> wrote:
>A friend of mine is trying to sell his late wife's violin. He is not
>looking to make money, he just feels it should go to better use than to
>collect dust. I took it to my teacher for a look. He said there are two
>things which make this violin almost worthless. There is a crack right at
>the base of the neck which has been repaired. He said there is a
>possibility that it can go again. The other is the lack of a label. It
Lack of a label will not make a violin almost worthless. The experts I
know never look for a label first. They studie the style, the wood,
the varnish etc. / the (use of) material and the way the violin is
made. There is a lot to see, if you know what to look for.
If you have a digital camera, you maybe could take some pictures and
show them on your website or on some free webspace?
With kind regards/
Groet,
Peter Polderman.
Astrid Bierworth
them anywhere? I have a web site, but do not know how to add pictures. It
was created by a professional web designer. Perhaps you could tell me how
to post them on free web space.
Astrid.
<Peter> wrote in message news:aP6IQCOggZFZFx...@4ax.com...
Astrid Bierworth
the crack quite well. My teacher looked inside and said that the top was
either made in 2 pieces, or it cracked and was repaired. If so, the repairs
were very well done.
http://www.freewebs.com/loneoak/
Astrid.
<Peter> wrote in message news:9i+JQHgX=iJPnifSeu4Rs=NGkI=X...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:41:08 -0400, "Astrid Bierworth"
> <loneoa...@storm.ca> wrote:
>
> >I do have a digital camera. I will take some pictures, but how would I
post
> >them anywhere? I have a web site, but do not know how to add pictures.
It
> >was created by a professional web designer. Perhaps you could tell me
how
> >to post them on free web space.
>
> An easy way is to open a free account at http://members.freewebs.com/
> With the - SiteManager - you can easily upload some pictures.
> The links to your pictures could be:
> http://www.freewebs.com/YourAccountName/picture1.jpg
> http://www.freewebs.com/YourAccountName/picture2.jpg
> etc.
>
> Maybe their are easier ways, but I would not know at this moment.
>
> With kind regards,
>
> Groet,
> Peter Polderman.
Paul Howland
> Thanks, Peter. Here are pictures I took of the violin. One of them shows
> the crack quite well. My teacher looked inside and said that the top was
> either made in 2 pieces, or it cracked and was repaired. If so, the repairs
> were very well done.
>
> http://www.freewebs.com/loneoak/
>
> Astrid.
You can tell your violin teacher that all violin tops are made in two
pieces. Backs can be one-piece or two-piece. Fronts are (nearly?)
always two piece.
Astrid Bierworth
> they do exist.
This is something I know nothing about.
> I also would say that the violin needs expert-cleaning and touch up
> of scratches and I wouldn't be surprised if the bridge is not fitted
> completely well, but this is difficult to see from a picture. If the
> strings lay rather high above the end of the fingerboard near the
> bridge, it could be caused by the neckproblem.
My violin teacher suggested some immediate repairs, like a new bridge,
strings, chin rest, good cleaning, etc. It's a nice sounding instrument,
even in its current condition. The crack in the neck which was obviously
repaired has been holding for many years now and I can only assume it will
continue to hold. My friend is taking to some places next week, including a
good violin maker.
There is evidence of damage on the pointy things at the one side (I'm
sorry - I don't know what they are called but I sometimes catch my bow hair
on them) which would indicate some kind of previous accident.
Thanks for your input.
Astrid.
Dave Curtis
-dave
"Astrid Bierworth" <loneoa...@storm.ca> wrote in message news:<c6b9u5$2p8$1...@news.storm.ca>...
Astrid Bierworth
http://www.freewebs.com/loneoak/
Astrid.
"Dave Curtis" <n6...@arrl.net> wrote in message
news:458f7cc6.04042...@posting.google.com...
Craig Wisted
The neck crack is "with the grain" not at 90 deg. as mentioned earlier. The
flame in the neck is not the grain. Althought the neck repair is visible,
it may be a solid repair and I'd leave it alone for now. Looking at the
pictures, it does appear to be a nice violin, if it sounds nice, don't get
hung up on it not having a label. Accept it for its sound and beauty. From
the pictures, I see no need to replace the chin rest, it might need new
cork. The pegs look OK, not worn or protruding too far out the side of the
peg box. What does need attention is the tail gut so have that replaced.
If you will be using gut or synthetic strings you may want to switch to
different tailpiece, the one that is on it is OK but unless I'm using steel
strings, I don't like all the fine tuners, even though they are built in.
Have fun with it..
Craig
Tho X. Bui
Craig Wisted wrote:
>
> "Astrid Bierworth" <loneoa...@storm.ca> wrote in message
> news:c6blin$6pd$1...@news.storm.ca...
> >
> > My violin teacher suggested some immediate repairs, like a new bridge,
> > strings, chin rest, good cleaning, etc. It's a nice sounding instrument,
> > even in its current condition. The crack in the neck which was obviously
> > repaired has been holding for many years now and I can only assume it will
> > continue to hold. My friend is taking to some places next week, including
> a
> > good violin maker.
> >
> > There is evidence of damage on the pointy things at the one side (I'm
> > sorry - I don't know what they are called but I sometimes catch my bow
> hair
> > on them) which would indicate some kind of previous accident.
> >
> > Thanks for your input.
> >
> > Astrid.
> >
> I've been away on business so I didn't get in on this discussion earlier.
> The neck crack is "with the grain" not at 90 deg. as mentioned earlier. The
> flame in the neck is not the grain. Althought the neck repair is visible,
> it may be a solid repair and I'd leave it alone for now.
I agree with Craig, it is along the grain and not perpendicular to the grain.
I find that type of repair easy, and when well done can be stronger than
the wood itself.
However, I also expect this type of repair to be practically invisible,
and I personally would consider the work done in the photo to
be...well...let's say that I wouldn't pay for it.
it could be the photography, but it looks like the scroll side of the
crack is slightly more opened than the other side, suggesting that it
wasn't sufficiently clamped or the joint has creeped open before the
glue fully cure.
Nevertheless, it is most likely a very strong repair, and if the
instrument is playable, there is no point in doing anything else to it.
Repair of repair is very, very difficult.
The quality of the wood is very nice, suggesting that it must have been
a better grade than a "student" instrument.
One tip on photography: details is very important. Close-up pictures
of the scroll, bee stings, etc., shows the level of workmanship. It may
not tell you that your instrument is a Cremona classic*, but it would
show that the builder poured his heart onto it--and that should worth
something to somebody.
Tho
*p.s.: some of the Cremona classics can have rather awful workmanship.
The Guarnerius featured in the current "the Strad" is a perfect example:
tool marks all over the place, mismatched F-holes. Of course, it's
worth a gazillion dollars, so what does _that_ tell ya?
Christian Tessier
"Tho X. Bui" <bla...@earthlink.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
4089BA1E...@earthlink.net...
That some people are ready to pay very big bucks for a name, whatever the
quality of wormanship.
Christian
PeteSchug
at cste...@sympatico.ca wrote on 4/24/04 8:57 PM:
[snip]
>
> That some people are ready to pay very big bucks for a name, whatever the
> quality of wormanship.
>
> Christian
>
>
Oh yeah, del Gesu's workmanship on the Cannone is really not all that great.
I can't imagine what Paganini wanted with such a crude piece of workmanship,
or why the town of Genoa seems to regard it as such a treasure.
Stradivari's problem is that he just made so many violins and del Gesu made
so few, I suppose.
Who knows?
Just beginner's luck on del Gesu's part.
Pete
Tho X. Bui
PeteSchug wrote:
>
> in article m4Eic.100714$Gp4.2...@news20.bellglobal.com, Christian Tessier
> [snip]
> >
> > That some people are ready to pay very big bucks for a name, whatever the
> > quality of wormanship.
>
> Oh yeah, del Gesu's workmanship on the Cannone is really not all that great.
> I can't imagine what Paganini wanted with such a crude piece of workmanship,
> or why the town of Genoa seems to regard it as such a treasure.
>
> Stradivari's problem is that he just made so many violins and del Gesu made
> so few, I suppose.
>
> Who knows?
>
> Just beginner's luck on del Gesu's part.
:-)
That del Gesu, he's such a hack.
I've read that his craftsmanship (different from his ability to make a
really nice sounding instrument) vary greatly from instrument to
instrument. Are his nicer looking instruments of similar quality as
those of A.Strad?
Tho
PeteSchug
bla...@earthlink.net wrote on 4/27/04 1:40 AM:
I don't know. I saw a del Gesu close-up a bunch of years ago, but it was way
before I got seriously interested. Same for a Strad.
I came across some graduation measurements of the Cannone and approximated
the contour lines with some bezier curves. There are two places where it
looks like del Gesu lifted a chip and blended the error in. The contour
lines don't look like he had any particular goal except thinning the top to
some eyeball value. Some of his scrolls are pretty bad and The Strad had an
article a while back speculating that is wife carved the scrolls for a
while, then went on to become a luthier in her own right.
Who knows. So much is speculation, and so many things from that era have
been regraduated by well meaning luthiers, some of whom may even have
improved the instruments while destroying the historical record.
We are all left to wonder and speculate.
Pete
DGoree
> really nice sounding instrument) vary greatly from instrument to
> instrument. Are his nicer looking instruments of similar quality as
> those of A.Strad?
>
> Tho
and Pete said,
<<I don't know. I saw a del Gesu close-up a bunch of years ago, but it was way
before I got seriously interested. Same for a Strad.
>>
I believe del Gesus are generally even more highly esteemed than Strads.
Mary Ellen
J. Teske
That is what I have heard as well. Among the Del Gesu owners I am
aware of Stern, Heifetz (who also had a Strad). I have played both a
Strad and a Guarneri, both owned by former teachers,...ever so
briefly, and not at the same time...both were of course quite nice but
since the incidents were ten years apart a comparison was almost
impossible. I'm also convinced that you have to play a number of
these instruments a lot to really get a true appreciation of their
worth. I'm not convinced they sound much better than lesser violins
from the players perspective (which is quite different from the
auditors' perspective). What did impress me though was the ease of
drawing sound from them and the ability to project softer playing.
I once heard a comment made by a violin maker who I frankly did not
hold in high regard. He said something to the effect that Guarneri
"Del Gesu" could only make a good violin when he was drunk. It has
been said that he did not have very good work habits, particularly
compared to the workaholic Stradivari. He made far fewer violins than
the prolific and long lived Stradivari who is credited with something
like 1100 instruments
BTW the nickname "del Gesu" comes from that particular Guarneri's
(there were several famous Guarneri's) habit of putting the symbol
"IHS", a trigraph representing Jesus Christ, on his labels. In modern
times this has been embellished upon as the two Guarneri's I have seen
up close has that symbol put on the tailpiece.
Jon Teske
>
PeteSchug
dgo...@aol.com wrote on 4/27/04 8:28 AM:
Definitly! There are probably ten Strads for every del Gesu. (Which is why I
commented on beginner's luck on del Gesu's part.) Stradivari had way more
practice at violin making.
The del Gesu I saw close up was in the hands of a Korean violinist (Ik Wan
Bey?, or maybe E Quan Bay? sp???) who had the use of it for a year for
winning a competition. I had the pleasure of recording him at Bargemusic.
(Just called The Barge back then)
Anna Kavafian(sp? again) commented that they all performed at Lincoln
Center, but they came to the barge to play. I think that says it all about
the atmosphere there in those days. If anyone doubts that I have a tape of
her stamping her foot and cheering after the harpsichordist finished his
solo in one of the Brandenberg Concerti. The audience followed her example
and applauded before the music could continue. I like that better (once in a
while, when deserved) than an audience that shows how smart they are by
never applauding until the last note of the last movement dies out.
If I had the interest then I would have been in the right place, but it
never occurred to me to be anything but a listener.
When I was in my early twenties, my friend Mike had a brother in law who had
a Strad and I was told, had been a pupil of Auer. Anytime I talked to him it
was on subjects other than music. He eventually (when he was around 90)
finished a piece he was writing and hired Carnagie Hall and the American
Symphony Orchestra to play his piece, which included taped sounds.
It got a feeble review in the Times, which is where I first heard about it
or I would have attended. I forgot who reviewed it, but his comment was that
it meandered from style to style while the tape had wierd things on it like
the Atom Bomb going off. I understood exactly what Sasha had done. It was a
musical biography with the tape representing the time line and his violin
playing the music that he was involved with at that point on the tape. There
is no doubt in my mind that that was his intention and the reviewer missed
the point. I mailed the review to my friend Mike, who, then and now lived
and lives in Chicago and he sent Sasha a telegram congratulating him on his
success. Sasha sent back a telegram asking if Mike could lend him $5,000. My
best guess is that Carnagie Hall stint cost him his Strad. That was the last
I ever heard of Sasha. I have always wondered who is playing that instrument
today.
Pete
PeteSchug
I think that is supposed to be Anni Kavafian I wrote about at the barge.
I am still not sure about how to spell Ik Wan Bey, but I think he is playing
with Paul Neubauer in my recording. If I dig out the recording I may have
notes with it, but with all the clutter I live in it is best not to disturb
anything that is put away neatly. One of these days I will digitize all
those old tapes and put them on my computer, but I have 15 gbytes of MP3
files on this 40 gbyte drive, and I am out of room.
I really need a dedicated computer just for iTunes.
Pete
in article BCB47F61.9D93%Pete...@att.net, PeteSchug at Pete...@att.net
wrote on 4/27/04 9:21 PM:
Michael Ritzert
After reading that thread i wouls like to contribute to two aspects:
a) stability of the repair
b) one piece/two piece top
a) as has already been pointed out that it is quite visible that the
crack opens toward the scroll. Is this opening stable? If yes i would
trust the repair.
Is the crack feelable while playing? If yes do You find it irritating?
If yes, (and only then) the outer edge of the crack might be filled
(with glue or varnish) and thoroughly polished.
b) one piece top: albeit possible, this is highly undesirable: the
sound of a violin is determined to a large degree by the anisotropy of
the "velocity of sound" (actually, the velocity of compressional
waves). The anisotropy is very strongly pronounced for spruce, where
the velocity of sound varies by a factor of roughly 2.5 along grain
and perpendicular to it. The darker winter rings make for the high
velocity component. The direction of low velocity is from the center
toward the f holes. It is desirable that the rings of the wood cut
vertically through the top, both of acoustical as well as of technical
reasons. In order to achive this You have two possibilities: 1. cut a
slice of wood through the center of the tree and throw away the rest.
2. cut the wood radially.
method 1. would allow You to produce one piece tops, but with reduced
acoustic quality because the core of the tree is usually too coarsely
grained.
method 2. implies that two pieces of wood with triangular cross
section are fitted together to form a "roof" like slice of wood with
the necessary symmetry which would otherwise be hard to obtain, and
the fast grown innermost part of the trunk with its few dark rings
comes to the outside where it will not disturb the sound.
When a trunk of spruce gets dried (as a whole) radial cracks open
toward and reaching the centre of the trunk. So using radially cut
wood is also the most natural choice.
Michael
P.S. just judging from the photos: the only maintenance i would apply
to the instrument is changing the strings and removing the rosin dust
from the top - it will damage the varnish.
if the bridge is not damaged in some way not visible from the photos,.
e.g., an overly deep nut (e string cut into the wood) or a horizontal
crack between the "wiggle holes" there is no need to replace it nor
anything else. Basic rule: never change a running system, it might
only be damaged.