Violin Upgrade - Chinese or German?
Michael Nelson
I am a beginning fiddler/violinist. I have a $350 Chinese fiddle that I
purchased new, and although it plays ok, I have now come to realize that it
sounds like crap. I also play guitar, and electric bass, and played pedal
steel guitar for about five years. During the years I've been playing
musical instruments (about 35 years), I have learned that inexpensive
instruments can be a pretty big hindrance when you're learning to play. I've
always had considerable leaps in my ability to play when I've jumped from
inexpensive to medium or top-level equipment, and there is no reason to
believe that violins/fiddles are any different in this respect.
I can afford to upgrade it, and I would like to. I'd like to keep the cost
to $1500 or less for the violin alone, so we are not talking about real
expensive violins, but I know I can get something in that price range that I
will like the sound of. I have a good bow (CodaBow Classic) and a good case,
(Bobelock 1017 case with suspension), so I don't feel any need to upgrade
those items at this time.
I went to Ifshin Violins in Berserkeley last Saturday and talked to them.
REALLY nice folks. They set me up in a private room with four of their "Jay
Haide" violins ranging in price from $750 to $1950, and I sat in there for
maybe 45 minutes comparing them. Naturally, the $1950 one was the prettiest
to look at, but I actually preferred the sound of the $1550 one. There were
also two of their $795 ones, and frankly, they sounded almost as good as the
$1550 one. ALL of them sounded much, MUCH better than mine. It wasn't a
string difference either. I have Pirastro Tonicas on mine, the Ifshin ones
were set up with Tonicas and Thomastik Dominants.
The Jay Haides all exhibited even loudness and nice tone across the strings,
but the main thing I noticed was that it was so much easier to properly
intone the notes on the G and D strings on all of the Jay Haides than on
mine, because the tone was so much clearer and better defined. If I can
HEAR it better, I can PLAY it better... that was very obvious. It really
helped to convince me that I want to own a better instrument. My fiddle is
also noticeably heavier than any of the others, indicating the thick top and
bottom it undoubtedly has.
The Jay Haides are made in China. Ifshin claims that they (Ifshin) own the
factory in China, that they (Ifshin) select the woods, and Ifshin people
supervise the construction, which all may go together to account for these
Chinese violins seeming to me to be considerably nicer than other Chinese
violins I've heard.
I have also looked at violins at Kamimoto Stringed Instruments in San Jose
California... in fact, that's where I bought the one I own now. They'll
give me 2/3 of what I paid for mine in trade-in on a nicer one, and I do
want to go back and visit them again prior to making a purchase because they
were so great to deal with the first time. Another very nice store.
But in the meantime, I have also received Shar Musical Instruments'
mailorder catalog and have been looking through it. All of the instruments
they sell that are in my $750 - $1500 price range are made in Germany, with
the ones in my range being made by Otto Ernst Fischer. Now unfortunately, I
can't play and hear these instruments without buying them. The pictures and
descriptions of them lead me to think I'd like them better than the Chinese
ones (shops in the SF Bay Area that I've found seem to carry more Chinese
than European instruments... perhaps because the West Coast is closer to
China?).
The Chinese instruments I've seen tend to have that one-color "orange"
varnish, and even the expensive ones ($1950) seem to have a certain lack of
attention to detail... ie: looking along the side edge of the fingerboard,
there are small voids in the wood (not completely smooth), the varnish seems
to be sprayed on and is not "antiqued" looking at all. And on the $750
instruments it looked like the varnish was not only sprayed on thick, but
that it had captured a lot of dust while drying. They seem to scream "I'm
made in China", but from what I've been able to determine, they SOUND
delightful.
The folks at Kamimoto tell me that in this price range, the Chinese
instruments are better. Handmade, properly graduated top and bottom, etc.,
and that the German instruments are clunky in comparison, machine made, but
with nicer cosmetics.
I'm wondering if anyone here has experience with mailordering these Otto
Ernst Fischer violins from Shar. The ones under $1000 have a 14 day
money-back guarantee, and the ones over $1000 have a 60 day money back
guarantee, so even if I didn't like one I could send it back and only be out
the shipping charges.
I kind of like the idea of a European instrument for some reason, so I am
leaning toward trying one from Shar... but if they are overpriced junk that
sounds lousy (I would probably get the $1375 "Guarneri Master Art Violin" if
I decided to order from them), perhaps someone here can tell me and save me
the hassle of mailordering one.
If you stuck with me this long, thanks for reading this!
Michael
--
Michael Nelson nel...@seahunt.imat.com
San Francisco, CA mich...@csd.sgi.com
Mark & Christi Tompkins
Michael,
Since you're in California, you should go check out Scott Cao's violins
in San Jose. Quite a few people on the Maestronet bulletin board play
his instruments, and speak of them very highly.
He has a workshop in San Jose, and a workshop and factory in Canton,
China. According to his web page (which doesn't seem to be working right
now), List Price for a violin made in his U.S. workshop is $1850, and a
violin made in his Canton workshop is $1250. I have heard great things
about both of these.
I don't have one of his instruments, but I plan to try one out when I
make my purchase in a few months (I'm renting now). His shop address is
4964 Williams Rd., San Jose, CA 95129, (408)446-3823. Let us know what
you finally decide on!
Christi Tompkins
(remove 'nospam' to reply)
Peter Feldmann
Re: Re: Violin Upgrade - Chinese or German?, Mark & Christi Tompkins wrote:
>Since you're in California, you should go check out Scott Cao's violins
>in San Jose. Quite a few people on the Maestronet bulletin board play
>his instruments, and speak of them very highly.
Another place to check is Jim Wimmer violin shop, 104 W. Mission St, Santa
Barbara CA. Usual bizz hours are Tue-Fri, 2-5 PM or by appointment. But
don't go there now, he's in Nepal! :-)
Back about 2nd half of April.
__Peter Feldmann
---------------------------------------------------------------
Blue Dalmatian Productions
Los Olivos CA
"pfeldmann AT bix.com"
---------------------------------------------------------------
David E Allen
Michael Nelson (nel...@seahunt.imat.com) wrote:
: I am a beginning fiddler/violinist. I have a $350 Chinese fiddle that I
: purchased new, and although it plays ok, ...
: I can afford to upgrade it, and I would like to. I'd like to keep the cost
: to $1500 or less for the violin alone, so we are not talking about real
: expensive violins, but I know I can get something in that price range that I
: will like the sound of. I have a good bow (CodaBow Classic) and a good case,
: (Bobelock 1017 case with suspension), so I don't feel any need to upgrade
: those items at this time.
You've already made a smart move by going to a decent bow.
As for the violin, don't overlook used instruments. Sounds like you're in
an area with lots of shops. I tend to think you get more instrument for the
money with a used one. It's the route I took upgrading from my $550 used
Knilling to my present $3000 1920s German Guarnari copy. I was "fortunate"
in one regard - of all the violins I tried, instruments in the $1500 to $2000
range were not noticeably better than that good ol' Knilling.
Another advantage of used is that you can hear it's sound at "maturity". The
wood will also have matured and hopefully there is less potential for new
cracks compared to a new violin, with its new wood still drying out and
adjusting to its new "surroundings".
Also, have someone familiar with violin (a decent player if not your teacher)
come along as you try them out - or pick a couple from what you try at each
shop and play them for your player or teacher. The sound quality can be very
different across the room than next to your ear.
dave allen, colorado springs
Michael Nelson
Peter Feldmann wrote:
>
> Re: Re: Violin Upgrade - Chinese or German?, Mark & Christi Tompkins wrote:
> >Since you're in California, you should go check out Scott Cao's violins
> >in San Jose. Quite a few people on the Maestronet bulletin board play
> >his instruments, and speak of them very highly.
>
> Another place to check is Jim Wimmer violin shop, 104 W. Mission St, Santa
> Barbara CA. Usual bizz hours are Tue-Fri, 2-5 PM or by appointment. But
Thanks, but Santa Barbara is outside my definition of "local".
So's Nepal... ;-)
Michael
Michael Nelson
Mark & Christi Tompkins wrote:
>
>
> Since you're in California, you should go check out Scott Cao's violins
> in San Jose.
Thanks... I called him today, will go see him Thursday.
Michael
Michael Low
A significantly more expensive instrument thna yours will generally work
better. It doesn't take an expert to tell you that.
However, your own instrument may actually be alright for the time being and
may be made to sound better - the reason may be that it is not properly set
up. A good luthier can often make big improvements on less expensive,
improperly set up instruments. Factory setups are generally awful.
If you can squeeze more time (to learn) from your own instrument, you will
make a better judge of the next instrument you buy. I think it's important
to have a reasonably good-sounding instrument, from there you can focus on
getting an instrument that is "that much" better.
When you have a poor-sounding instrument, almost any shop set-up instrument
will sound better. You won't have a very discriminating ear to judge with.
Michael
--
Toronto, ON Canada [YA-NewsWatcher Mac v.2.4]
To reply or send mail to me, use the address: mtro...@interlog.com
Michael Nelson
On 24 Mar 1998 18:44:15 GMT, David E Allen wrote:
>You've already made a smart move by going to a decent bow.
I think so too. The CodaBow Classic is SO much easier to play with than my
previous cheap brazilwood bow. It was well worth the money I spent.
>As for the violin, don't overlook used instruments. Sounds like you're in
>an area with lots of shops. I tend to think you get more instrument for the
>money with a used one. It's the route I took upgrading from my $550 used
>Knilling to my present $3000 1920s German Guarnari copy. I was "fortunate"
>in one regard - of all the violins I tried, instruments in the $1500 to $2000
>range were not noticeably better than that good ol' Knilling.
I have done some looking around for used ones, with little success. Many of
the ones I've found aren't even in playable condition, and the prices seem
high to me. I think I'd feel better about a new fairly premium Chinese
instrument such as Ifshin's Jay Haide series or Scott Cao's models. I like
the idea that there is a shop standing behind them and that they probably
don't have alot of "unknown" problems.
>Another advantage of used is that you can hear it's sound at "maturity".
Good point... but if I find a good sounding new Haide or Cao, isn't it
likely that it will actually get BETTER sounding as I play it in?
Thanks...
Michael Nelson
On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:17:17 -0500, Michael Low wrote:
>However, your own instrument may actually be alright for the time being and
>may be made to sound better - the reason may be that it is not properly set
>up. A good luthier can often make big improvements on less expensive,
>improperly set up instruments. Factory setups are generally awful.
I believe it is properly set up already. It was set up by Kamimoto in San
Jose, and they have a good reputation for the work they do.
Thanks...
Peter Feldmann
Re: Re: Violin Upgrade - Chinese or German?, Michael Nelson wrote:
>> Another place to check is Jim Wimmer violin shop, 104 W. Mission St, Santa
>> Barbara CA. Usual bizz hours are Tue-Fri, 2-5 PM or by appointment. But
>
>Thanks, but Santa Barbara is outside my definition of "local".
>So's Nepal... ;-)
As George Carlin once said: "Any place is in walking distancce ... if you
have enough time."
Michael Nelson
Well, thanks much to everyone who responded... your suggestions really
helped me to make a decision, and I made one today.
I visited Scott Cao at his workshop in San Jose, and Scott spent quite a bit
of time with me answering my questions, showing me around the place (there
were new violins hanging with varnish drying in the afternoon sun in his
back yard, three craftsmen in the back building violins), and he played
several instruments for me. An STV-800 (built in his shop in China), an
STV-850 and STV-900 (both built there in his shop in San Jose). Although
the STV-800 was easily the prettiest looking and sounding Chinese violin
I've encountered, it did not sound or look as nice as the 850 and 900. I
ended up putting a deposit down on an STV-900, and I'll pick it up in a
couple weeks. So now it's sitting there on a display stand with MY NAME on
it... I can hardly wait!
What a gorgeous sounding and beautiful appearing instrument! It's antiqued
with reddish-brown oil varnish over a golden base, and it's a Strad-pattern
copy. The fittings are all what I think is boxwood (although it was nicely
patterned with a dark distinct grain. Wonderful craftsmanship and attention
to detail is evident everywhere you look on that instrument, and the sound
is heavenly.
Scott is a heck of a player, too, I really enjoyed listening to him play,
and he's a very nice guy.
B310718
Hello Michael,
in your letter you wrote: "Good point... but if I find a good sounding new
Haide or Cao, isn't it likely that it will actually get BETTER sounding as I
play it in?"
We are very fotunate by the fact that some of them will do o'key. And here
comes all this stuff about how to keep one's instrument properly. However with
good deal of practice one can overcame problems of equipment. And for sure the
more you practice-the better is the sound :)
Miron Berlin.
Michael Nelson
On 8 Apr 1998 11:56:33 GMT, B310718 wrote:
>>in your letter you wrote: "Good point... but if I find a good sounding new
>>Haide or Cao, isn't it likely that it will actually get BETTER sounding as I
>>play it in?"
>The answer is most likely no ;)
Aren't you the same person who advised someone to put their violin in a
freezer for 2-3 hours?
I believe I will consider the source of the above comment carefully.
Thanks