Help with bass viola da gamba (longish)
Stradivari1688
for future production. I'd appreciate input, based on the pictures I have
provided links to, regarding the following:
1. How does it look, honestly? Any suggestions on how to make it better without
making it more complicated? Or does the design look good as-is?
2. Are the neck and fingerboard too wide for a 7-string gamba? Fingerboard
width at the nut is 73 mm; at the end, it is 95 mm. The "circumference" of the
neck near the nut is about 195 mm, and goes to about 215 mm just before it
turns into the heel. I don't have a whole lot of experience with gambas, but
the neck looks kind of robust.
3. Any comments on the measurements? Back length is 714 mm, lower bout is 419
mm, and the sounding string length is (approximately) 740 mm.Including the
plates, the sides are about 157 mm deep. After the bend in the back, this
height tapers down to about 130 mm at the neck joint.
4. The instrument feels quite heavy, weighing about 6-7 lbs on a bathroom
scale. Ebony was used by mistake for the fingerboard--will a maple fingerboard
cut this weight down substantially?
5. Is it inappropriate to attach the plates violin-style with purfling? Is it
OK to use an end-button rather than an end-bar?
Here are the pictures:
http://members.aol.com/~stradivari1688/viol1.jpg
http://members.aol.com/~stradivari1688/viol2.jpg
http://members.aol.com/~stradivari1688/viol3.jpg
http://members.aol.com/~stradivari1688/viol4.jpg
http://members.aol.com/~stradivari1688/viol5.jpg
http://members.aol.com/~stradivari1688/viol6.jpg
http://members.aol.com/~stradivari1688/viol7.jpg
PeteSchug
oynvf_s...@flzcngvpb.pn wrote on 12/27/02 7:50 PM:
> In article <20021227170326...@mb-cl.aol.com>,
> stradiv...@aol.comnenus.ua (Stradivari1688) wrote:
>> 4. The instrument feels quite heavy, weighing about 6-7 lbs on a bathroom
>> scale. Ebony was used by mistake for the fingerboard--will a maple
>> fingerboard
>> cut this weight down substantially?
>
> I had a cheap 6 strings gamba once.
> It was made of mahogany (even the neck!) with a cedar top plate.
> The fingerboard was made of white wood, and it was hollow!
> Flat-back construction, no purfling, but it was quite cheap!
> The movable "frets" were made of cheap nylon string.
>
> Hope this helps!
Almost every viol da gamba I have seen in recent years uses "cheap" nylon
string for the frets. It last a lot longer than gut. The only drawback is
sharp edges if you just clip the nylon.
A zillion years ago I rented a gamba for a class I was taking and I bought
extra strings to use for the frets. I think that was the last time I ever
saw gut strings used for frets.
Pete
Tho X. Bui
Stradivari1688 wrote:
>
> I'm currently in the process of making a working model of a 7-string bass gamba
> for future production. I'd appreciate input,...
In the book "Making Musical Instruments" edited by Charles Ford, there
is detailed instruction on making a bass viol with 7 strings. I'm not
sure if this book is still in print, but there is enough info there to
build one if you are already capable of building string instruments
(about 20 pages worth on this chapter, with drawing and photographs).
My copy came from a used book store. The book is copyrighted in 1979,
ISBN 0-394-49210-2 and ISBN 0-394-73561-7. Highly recommended.
Tho
Roland Hutchinson
> Almost every viol da gamba I have seen in recent years uses "cheap"
> nylon string for the frets. It last a lot longer than gut. The only
> drawback is sharp edges if you just clip the nylon.
Nylon frets were quite popular for this reason until some time in the
1970s.
The disadvantages are in fact that:
1. They can chew up the gut strings.
2. They increase the chance that the string will make a bit of a
"squeak" under the bow (especially noticable on the top strings of the
treble viol).
3. They are difficult to tie.
4. Makers and shops that fit nylon frets tend to make the frets too
thin (and the nut too low). I don't know if this is because thicker
frets would tend to make problems (1) and (2), but I suspect that this
is the case.
I know of no makers of any reputation who have fit nylon frets to their
new instrument within the past 15 years at least.
By the way, you're not supposed to just clip the ends of the gut frets,
either.
The OP's viol looks quite interesting to me. I shall have more to say
when I'm done with a concert on New Year's Day and have time to look at
the photos properly.
I suppose I'll post a blurb about the concert separately, since I
didn't get flamed TOO badly the last time (and at least one person came
and said nice things!)
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my_sp...@mac.com is heavily filtered to remove
spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Roland Hutchinson
Although I can't speak from a maker's perspective, that is really a
very interesting book and worth seeking out. It also has a good
chapter on baroque and modern violin.
The chapter on the viol is by Dietrich Kessler, who was one of the most
highly regarded makers of the 20th century. We owe much of our
understanding of historical viol construction to his research and the
restoration work that he undetook in his London shop. He was, for
example, the person who discovered and documented the way that English
(and some French) makers built up the belly out of bent staves.
Roland Hutchinson
> 4. Makers and shops that fit nylon frets tend to make the frets too
> thin (and the nut too low). I don't know if this is because thicker
> frets would tend to make problems (1) and (2)
I mean of course meant to write "...tend to make
problems (1) and (2) *worse*"
PeteSchug
You are a hundred times more knowledgeable than me on this subject, but the
last time I was at a gathering of viol players (about three years ago) I saw
almost all nylon frets. There were nylon frets on the gamba I took a lesson
on and I managed to stick myself with the sharp ends of one of the frets, so
there is no doubt that they were clipped and not burned off.
If I get or make a gamba I will take your word for it and put gut frets on,
which look better to me anyway.
Pete
in article aupf85$99h1p$1...@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de, Roland Hutchinson at
my_sp...@mac.com wrote on 12/30/02 7:46 AM:
Roland Hutchinson
PeteSchug wrote:
> There were nylon frets on the
> gamba I took a lesson on and I managed to stick myself with the sharp
> ends of one of the frets, so there is no doubt that they were clipped
> and not burned off.
I addition to saying "OUCH" as I did previously I should have tactfully
suggested that you probably could use another lesson if you were
actually sticking yourself while playing -- the left thumb at the back
of the neck shouldn't normally go anywhere near the fret knots. (This
is a bad habit that violinists who take up the viol tend to develop
unless corrected promptly; it was in fact noticed and commented on in
the 17th century, and nothing's changed since!).
Okay, enough of my blathering. I've got to go find my clothes for the
concert tommorrow. We got a nice little write up in the listings
section of the issue of the New Yorker that just hit the stands, so
perhaps we'll have an audience and all... (hm, mabye better practice
too. Nyah; did that all day today. Time enough in the morning if I
need it.)
PeteSchug
my_sp...@mac.com wrote on 12/31/02 9:09 PM:
> As we all know by now because I keep re-quoting the same message,
> PeteSchug wrote:
>
>> There were nylon frets on the
>> gamba I took a lesson on and I managed to stick myself with the sharp
>> ends of one of the frets, so there is no doubt that they were clipped
>> and not burned off.
>
> I addition to saying "OUCH" as I did previously I should have tactfully
> suggested that you probably could use another lesson if you were
> actually sticking yourself while playing -- the left thumb at the back
> of the neck shouldn't normally go anywhere near the fret knots. (This
> is a bad habit that violinists who take up the viol tend to develop
> unless corrected promptly; it was in fact noticed and commented on in
> the 17th century, and nothing's changed since!).
Sorry Roland, I played the viol before I played the violin, and had two
lessons on the cello before that. (and played some guitar before that, so my
thumb knows its job.) I stuck myself picking the viol up by the neck at a
VdGS/GNY meeting using one of their gambas. I managed to avoid jabbing
myself while playing. My first lessons were about twenty years ago, in a
class given by Mary Springfels at Lucy Bardo's apartment. I may not have
been a good student back then, but I never stuck myself on my tied frets,
which were gut. (I don't remember the year, but it was during the first run
of I, Claudius on Channel 13.)
If I can get up early enough tomorrow :-> maybe I'll make it to the concert.
Pete (fringe musician)
Roland Hutchinson
> in article autill$acd98$1...@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de, Roland Hutchinson
> at my_sp...@mac.com wrote on 12/31/02 9:09 PM:
>
[...]
>> you probably could use another lesson if you
>> were actually sticking yourself while playing -- the left thumb at
>> the back
>> of the neck shouldn't normally go anywhere near the fret knots.
>> (This is a bad habit that violinists who take up the viol tend to
>> develop unless corrected promptly; it was in fact noticed and
>> commented on in the 17th century, and nothing's changed since!).
>
> Sorry Roland, I played the viol before I played the violin,
Good for you!
> I stuck myself picking the viol up
> by the neck at a VdGS/GNY meeting using one of their gambas. I managed
> to avoid jabbing myself while playing.
Aha! Then the seventeenth-century advice you need is given by Jean (no
relation) Rousseau, if memory serves: never pick up a viol by the neck
where the frets are. Grab it either between the nut and the first
fret, or above the seventh fret at the heel. The reason is not to
avoid jabbing yourself, but to avoid inadvertently moving the frets out
of adjustment.
> My first lessons were about
> twenty years ago, in a class given by Mary Springfels at Lucy Bardo's
> apartment.
I cannot think of a better way to start!
So how come you've left our ranks after such an auspicious beginning?
What do we need to do to lure you back?
Stradivari1688
I am going to take a look at that "Making Musical Instruments" book this coming
week. Can anyone tell me an ideal string spacing on a bass gamba? The one I
made (or more accurately, had a factory make to my specifications) has a
spacing of 1 mm between each string.
I want to have this instrument mass produced, in order to make available an
affordable student gamba of good quality. Getting input from people who know
better, therefore, is a must.
This sample instrument is currently being auctioned on eBay, at a substantially
higher price than I intend to offer production instruments.
Would there be any demand for things like baroque violins and viole d'amore?
PeteSchug
stradiv...@aol.comnenus.ua wrote on 1/1/03 8:39 PM:
> Greetings,
>
> I am going to take a look at that "Making Musical Instruments" book this
> coming
> week. Can anyone tell me an ideal string spacing on a bass gamba? The one I
> made (or more accurately, had a factory make to my specifications) has a
> spacing of 1 mm between each string.
I'm sure you mean 1 cm. Even the paired strings on a mandolin are further
apart than 1 mm.
>
> I want to have this instrument mass produced, in order to make available an
> affordable student gamba of good quality. Getting input from people who know
> better, therefore, is a must.
A good viol at a low price would be interesting, but I think by the time an
instrument gets to the person who is going to play it, a lot of things come
into play to set the final price that you may not have control over.
I once had a friend give a fairly low bid on a job and wind up realizing how
little he got for his actual work. The markup over materials was
considerable, but the true final price came out of his family life for a few
months working late every night.
Pete, who hopes you succeed for his own selfish reasons.
Roland Hutchinson
goes:
Stradivari1688 wrote:
> I am going to take a look at that "Making Musical Instruments" book
> this coming week.
You should also, while you are at it, find a copy of Annette
Otterstedt's book "The Viol", recently translated into English in a
revised and enlarged edition, published by Bärenreiter. Among other
things, it will bring you up to speed in a hurry on the kinds of viols
that are being played today (not without a certain amount of
good-natured polemic on the part of the author -- but it's a soundly
researched book that is also engagingly and even amusingly written, a
rare enough combination even in books NOT written by German-speaking
scholars.)
> Can anyone tell me an ideal string spacing on a bass
> gamba?
What kind of bass gamba? Is the model French, German, or English?
What period? Oh, heck -- what maker, come to that? Are you going for
the original style of neck the instrument might have had, or for the
more-or-less standard French neck that most players expect today? For
that matter, does the original survive with its original neck? With a
later historical neck? With a 19th-century cello-style "restoration"
neck? With a modern replacement?
> The one I made (or more accurately, had a factory make to my
> specifications) has a spacing of 1 mm between each string.
Surely you mean 1 cm? That seems on the wide side to me, and it LOOKS
wide in your pictures (but hard to judge, at least for me, without
seeing pictures of the instrument set up). However, I just play 'em, I
don't build 'em. I may be able measure the string spacing on some of
theinstruments here (if I can find my steel tape!) and post some
numbers in a separate posting later today or (more likely) tommorrow or
Friday.
Your sounding string length at 74 cm is really quite long; I would not
expect a student instrument to be of that size. Admittedly, people are
STARTING to play on larger basses. The time was when you couldn't get
a player to look at anything over 69.5 or so, with 68 being common, and
even shorter lengths not unknown. Now you can expect people to look
for 7-string baroque basses between 69 and 72 cm, but with the largest
ones being (I think) still the least common. Interest in instruments
longer than that is, I think, mostly in the direction of big English
17th-century consort basses (say, 75 to 80 cm depending on model -- I
just did a concert with one of those beasts today). But the NORMAL
thing for beginners nowadays is still an instrument with
metal-overwound 5th and 6th strings (and 7th if present), and a string
length of between 68 and (maybe) 70 cm. Don't forget that beginning
amateur players tend to do a LOT of playing at A=440 (for example,
their friends probably play Renaissance music on recorders, even if
they don't themselves), and keeping the string length short helps with
that.
I see on your eBay page that the instrument is on "mostly after
Stainer" model -- which is what I had guessed early looking at the
pictures on your website. At least I'm reassured that my eye is
working o.k., any you may be reassured that your instrument is
recognizable.
Now PERSONALLY, I think that a big, cheap Stainer viol is EXACTLY what
the world needs in order to get out the good news about this style of
instrument. At least a couple of modern makers who command very high
prices (as the viol market goes) have done very well with Stainer (not
always building them so long, however). But I don't know if the world
agrees with me entirely. I don't honestly think that many teachers
would recommend this as a first instrument to beginners at the present
time. On the other hand, as a SECOND (or third) bass for a player
looking to expand his or her collection (most of us end up owning
several different basses for different repertoires), especially an
advancing player needing a BIG sounding continuo instrument, or
something to play things like the Buxtehude trios (obligato viola da
gamba and violin with continuo), this might prove to be a very
attractive instrument. I wish I had one like that myself (I do have a
much smaller German bass, which is very nice, so I can't complain too
much.) Of course, this part of the market looks for an instrument that
has a reasonably carefully graded top and a decent sound -- actually,
most of the market looks for decent sound, and even the cheapest viols
available today sound substantially better than cheap student violins.
Another possible market: German-style instruments are sometimes
recommended to modern cellists who want to play viol in Baroque chamber
music (and perhaps have a go at the Bach passions once a year) rather
than to play viol consorts. The theory is that these instruments can
stand up to being played vigorously, as cellists are wont to do. To a
cellist, however, the long string length may be perceived as an
obstacle. But darn it, it's the RIGHT string length for this kind of
viol with this body size. This may simply call for better salesmanship
rather than tampering with the model.
> I want to have this instrument mass produced, in order to make
> available an affordable student gamba of good quality.
You already have some competition from the Czech Republic and China,
with European and U.S. distribution already established or in the
process of being established (respectively). But more choices would be
welcome, I think -- if you are going to stick to the large model as
you say, you'll at least be differentiating yourself in the
marketplace. I hope you do just that, and succeed wildly!
What, if anything, are you planning to do about tenor and treble viols?
If you are going for the student market, offering a matched
set can be very attractive to both institutions and individuals. (But
that observation applies more to consort viols, and again you would be
almost a pioneer in offering matched German-style instruments, and
certainly a pioneer in offering them at a low price.)
How about some cheap violones, while I'm doing up the wish list...
> Getting input
> from people who know better, therefore, is a must.
You really need to be talking to someone who makes or restores viols, I
think, as well as to players and teachers. Are you in contact with the
Viola da Gamba Society of America? www.vdgsa.org to start with. Tell
'em I sent you.
> This sample instrument is currently being auctioned on eBay, at a
> substantially higher price than I intend to offer production
> instruments.
Really? It's customary to sell off the prototypes cheaper, I would
have thought. Better still, to hang onto the prototype until it's
fully debugged. IMHO, you need to get this instrument set up and start
showing it to players. Beginning violists da gamba almost always buy
instruments based on word-of-mouth recommendations from teachers and
other players, and from having seen and tried instruments of the maker,
if they are able to do so (which they usually are, having started on a
borrowed instrument).
The absolute best single thing you could do would be to take the
instrument, in playing condition, to the VdGSA's annual workshop (the
"Conclave") in the summer -- or have someone take it for you -- and
solicit opinions and let people play and hear it. If it's any good,
this will establish a reputation for you. If it stinks, it will do the
same, but you will get much useful feedback of the type you are looking
for and you can come back with the improved model the next year. You
could also consider showing it at local or regional workshops, both
ones for viols, and general early-music weekend- or week-long
workshops. They are concentrated in the summer, but go on throughout
the year as well.
You might also want to make contact with someone already in the
cheap-viol retail business who might be interested in helping with
setup and distribution. Selling through an established channel could
be a big help -- in the viol world everyone knows everone pretty well,
and having an established vendor give your instruments the ok could
really make a difference. If this appeals to you, let me know. I know
the people at a few such shops (with whom, I should add, I have no
financial relationship except as a satisfied customer mostly for things
much smaller than viols), and I could perhaps let them know that you
exist and are interested in talking to them.
> Would there be any demand for things like baroque violins and viole
> d'amore?
Evidently there is some demand. Have you seen what the Early Music
Shop in Bradford is offering, for example, in the way of inexpensive
violins? or at baroquecello.com ? My general impression is that what's
available today is a bit higher priced than modern instruments of
comparable quality. (That differential disappears in higher-priced
instruments.) So if you can beat that selling into what is still
something of a niche market, at the right price point(s), you may have
an opportunity here. It may be better to up the quality and keep the
price point. Real beginners are not going to be shopping for baroque
fiddles; your clients here are already playing to at least a competent
amateur standard, I would think, and would not be happy with a baroque
instrument that was noticeably inferior to their modern fiddle.
D'amore is a whole other kettle of fish. I don't think there would be
much demand for cheap ones, but I'm not the person to ask.
Answering some questions in your earlier posting:
Plates that overlap the ribs were done by some 20th-century makers as a
standard practice years ago, and even as late as the early 1980s or so
(I think), such well-respected makers as Kessler (maybe Garmy, too?)
would do them on instruments that were meant for North American
clients, reasoning that the very dry winters here and the size of the
continent made it likely that at some point the instrument would
to have to be taken apart for repair by someone who hasn't taken apart
too many gambas (well, that's the easy bit; you also have to get them
back together, and with the edge still flush -- and don't ask me how, I
don't know!! That's why the restorers get the big bucks, I suppose).
However, I don't believe I've seen a single viol made in the last 20
years that has overlapping edges. Unless you are copying a
feature of a specific original model, they would be looked at funny by
a potential buyer. In fact, even in the presence of obviously
excellent workmanship in the instrument in general, they would fairly
shout "here's an obviously competent fiddle maker who's decided to try
to make a gamba" (Well, there IS something to be said for truth in
advertising, I suppose... ) The potential client then begins to wonder
what other possibly dubious "improvements" you may have attempted that
they CAN'T see, whether you are working to some 50-year old design from
the bad old days when barely playable viols were the norm, and whether
you can in fact get a viol back together if you have to take it apart,
and whether it will be coming apart on its own and needing you to try
to fix it if they should be incautious enough to buy it. Perhaps not
the impression you want to give! (By the way, I do own a Kessler
treble with the overlapping edges, and it's definitely a keeper. So I
don't speak about MY prejudices here!)
Many viol fingerboards (virtually ALL that have an ebony surface) are
veneered over lighter wood to save weight. You can also save weight in
the neck by using a combination of woods, and in the pegbox by using a
pierced scroll. (Violin-type scrolls are not common on viols, but
Stainer did use them didn't he? -- so best to stick to the model here.)
In your pictures, just the fingerboard, but the neck looks (as far as I
can tell) quite heavy & substantial. Is that a feature of the
original? (And is it the original neck? I don't recall offhand if any
Stainers actually survive with their original neck.) As I said above,
most players are accustomed to a French neck or something approximating
it, but if this is "echt" Stainer, we can adapt...
Hookbar is definitely a requirement unless the original model has a
button & tailgut (mostly early Italian models, I suppose.)
Some further reflections and queries:
You say on eBay that the instrument will be set up before shipping.
Who is going to do the setup? Anyone who is actually competent to set
up a viol (and I hope you appreciate it CANNOT be done in just any
violin shop in the expectation of a playable instrument) could surely
advise you on all of these questions, and more. If the setup IS being
done by someone competent, knowing who is responsible for it would be
reassuring to potential buyers.
All that said, I really wouldn't mind having a look at the instrument
myself (I might even be in California fairly soon), but I'm not about
to bid on it sight unseen, I could not advise anyone else to do so, and
I doubt that anyone will -- but one never knows on eBay!!
And oh yes: graduated GUT frets! No nylon even on student instruments,
IMHO. Make sure the nut is high enough -- but not too high. Straight
fingerboard, I presume? Lose the hunk of ebony in any event (an
expensive mistake for someone, I should think!).
And strings? What are you planing to use to string this one up?
Always an interesting question at interesting string lengths, in my
experience!
And cases? Do you have a source for hard cases for an instrument this
size?
I hope everything works out! If the instrument is a good as it seems
to have the potential to be, I think you just may have a chance of
established players starting to recommend it to beginners -- AND
snapping up ones for themselves. It may be a model whose time has
come. Good luck with it!
Stradivari1688
>Are you going for the original style of neck the instrument might have >had,
or for the more-or-less standard French neck that most players >expect today?
If the French neck is what most players expect in this sort of instrument, then
that's what I'll go for. Right now, the neck is attached as a modern cello
neck, but is very robust with a shape similar to a Baroque violin neck.
>Surely you mean 1 cm? That seems on the wide side to me, and it >LOOKS wide
in your pictures (but hard to judge, at least for me, >without seeing pictures
of the instrument set up).
Yes, I meant 1 cm. To top it off, there is about 7 mm of fingerboard width to
the left and right sides of the lowest and highest strings, respectively.
>Your sounding string length at 74 cm is really quite long;<snip> Now >you can
expect people to look for 7-string baroque basses between 69 >and 72 cm
If I assume the placement of the bridge to be similar to the placement of the
bridge on a cello (more or less slightly below the midline of the c-holes), the
string length is shortened to 72 cm. If I place the bridge further down, as
might be seen in some period depictions, I get a length of 74 cm.
I was going to ask another question, but it looks like you answered it in
mentioning continuo players and cellists.
I'm looking to cater to the continuo set mostly, since most of the instruments
now available seem to cater to the consort crowd for the most part.
>You already have some competition from the Czech Republic and >China, with
European and U.S. distribution already established or in the
>process of being established (respectively).
These will be made by a Chinese factory. A friend of mine is a wholesaler for
what seem to be some very good student violins. Knowing that I had an avid
interest in baroque music, he suggested I make a set of drawings and give the
whole thing a try. Actually, I was unaware that viols were already being
produced in China. This sample was due about a year ago, but the wholesaler had
a falling out with the factory, causing a year-long delay.
>But more choices would be welcome, I think -- if you are going to stick >to
the large model as you say, you'll at least be differentiating yourself >in the
marketplace. I hope you do just that, and succeed wildly!
I will stick to the large model, but make modifications at points that might be
questionable to potential buyers.
>What, if anything, are you planning to do about tenor and treble viols?
Nothing at the moment, but you're not the first person who has asked me about
the prospect, so it might be a wise idea to explore the possibility.
>If you are going for the student market, offering a matched
>set can be very attractive to both institutions and individuals.
I was going to offer a "trio sonata" group; two violins and a gamba. Do people
prefer small violins or large models?
>How about some cheap violones, while I'm doing up the wish list...
Definitely. It will depend on how the gambas sell, though.
>You really need to be talking to someone who makes or restores viols,
I have, but people seem to be interested in mostly English and French
instruments.
I was thinking of joining the VdGSA as well.
>Really? It's customary to sell off the prototypes cheaper, I would
>have thought.
I would sell it more cheaply, but the factory didn't send me any fittings and
didn't drill the peg holes, so I'm having someone fabricate a bridge,
tailpiece, and pegs. In the end, I'll have a fair amount of money into it.
>Better still, to hang onto the prototype until it's fully debugged.
I would, but I recently was ripped off on eBay (a guy bought a bunch of violins
and used fake credit cards) and this cut into my reserve for ordering the first
batch. That being the case, I have to make it up somewhere. I am neither a
gambist nor a maker--this is all a side business and hobby for me. Will people
be turned off by someone like this having designed their instrument?
>IMHO, you need to get this instrument set up and start
>showing it to players. Beginning violists da gamba almost always buy
>instruments based on word-of-mouth recommendations from teachers
When I make my first order, I plan on doing just that. For starters, I plan on
changing the fingerboard width for this batch (if I find a string spacing that
is agreeable). I also will ask the factory to use maple for the fingerboards.
Flush edges seem to be de rigueur as well, so I'll go with that. I still don't
know if they can do the hookbar.
>The absolute best single thing you could do would be to take the
>instrument, in playing condition, to the VdGSA's annual workshop (the
>"Conclave") in the summer -- or have someone take it for you -- and
>solicit opinions and let people play and hear it.
If I am able to get the first shipment before this time, would someone be
interested in taking one there?
>If this appeals to you, let me know. I know the people at a few such >shops
(with whom, I should add, I have no financial relationship except >as a
satisfied customer mostly for things much smaller than viols), and >I could
perhaps let them know that you exist and are interested in >talking to them.
I would be. I only have contacts at violin shops so far, and something like
this would be little more than a curiosity.
>Evidently there is some demand. Have you seen what the Early Music
>Shop in Bradford is offering, for example, in the way of inexpensive
>violins? or at baroquecello.com ?
Yes I have. Their offerings seem to be exclusively Stradivarian. My motto is,
"Stick with Stainer" with a little personal touch, of course.
>You say on eBay that the instrument will be set up before shipping.
>Who is going to do the setup? Anyone who is actually competent to >set up a
viol
I'm assuming they're competent. It is a violin shop, but they do work on viols.
>Lose the hunk of ebony in any event (an expensive mistake for >someone, I
should think!).
I don't know why they did that. I told them maple from the get go, the
wholesaler said rosewood, I said "no way" and here I end up with ebony. That
must be two pounds by itself.
>And strings? What are you planing to use to string this one up?
>Always an interesting question at interesting string lengths, in my
>experience!
Gut or fake gut. Silk maybe? I don't know--whatever the factory can whip up.
>And cases? Do you have a source for hard cases for an instrument >this size?
Guess I could have another factory make them up too, but that will come later.
Eric Lam
I was reading your long, but interesting reply on the RMMBS newsgroup
regarding a bass viol and I thought you, and others, might have some
opinions to help me on my way with this instrument
A pianist and a violinist here, but was thinking of trying the 6 string bass
viol as a 3rd instrument. Naturally, I am thinking of a student instrument,
but am a bit bewildered by the choices out there.
What's out there seems to be Czech Ceske viols that have been around for a
while, Dan Foster's student viols, and now coming soon, Chinese-made viols.
Been in contact with Charlie Ogle. His Chinese viols won't be ready until
the spring. Been in contact with Wendy Gillispie and her Chinese instruments
are almost ready for the market. Looks-wise hers seem decent. I'm amazed at
the back real purfling. They didn't cut on the decoration. But soundwise, I
have no idea.
Normally, I have reservations with Chinese FACTORY instruments in general
since I teach elementary string orchestra here in Vancouver, and my school
program survives on cheap Chinese instruments like Skylarks. But they sound
awful even when strung with decent strings like Dominants. But I'm willing
to take a chance and be open minded with Chinese viols. As I understand it's
a different playing field manufacturing-wise.
The prices for all these instruments seem pretty competitive within the
$2000 to $2500 USD range.
What are your thoughts?
Will be contacting the local early music society--Early Music Vancouver for
some help as well. Hopefully to solicit opinions and try some instruments
from players...
Cheers,
Eric Lam
Vancouver, Canada
"Roland Hutchinson" <my_sp...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:av0khb$b1vdj$1...@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de...
Stradivari1688
I'm sure you've been following, to some degree, my postings regarding the
Chinese student viols I plan to market.
>Been in contact with Charlie Ogle. His Chinese viols won't be ready >until the
spring.
Upon receiving my first sample instrument from the factory, I contacted Mr.
Ogle about his Chinese instruments. Apparently he is already selling them on a
limited basis. You might want to try him again.
>Been in contact with Wendy Gillispie and her Chinese instruments
>are almost ready for the market. Looks-wise hers seem decent. I'm >amazed at
the back real purfling. They didn't cut on the decoration.
Does anyone know if pictures of these are available on the Internet? As for
decoration, I'd like to do that as well, but I'm concerned about the effect
this might have on the instrument's tonal qualities. I deal primarily with
violin people and they tend to view decorated instruments as wall-hangers.
>program survives on cheap Chinese instruments like Skylarks. But they >sound
awful even when strung with decent strings like Dominants.
The instruments I am offering are built by the same factory that produces a
very good line of intermediate and semiprofessional violins marketed under the
brand name of "Satori Soloist".
>The prices for all these instruments seem pretty competitive within the
>$2000 to $2500 USD range.
Hopefully I will be able to offer my product well below that range.
>What are your thoughts?
If you aren't in a hurry to purchase an instrument (probably 2-3 months before
I can offer a debugged production instrument) and would settle for a large
7-string bass, please consider giving mine a trial run. I am aiming for a
different market, though, namely people who want to do continuo work and/or are
cellists who want to give the gamba a try without spending a lot of money.
Has anyone seen the other Chinese viols in person? Are any of them also big,
7-string instruments on German models?
Roland Hutchinson
matters having to do with viols should join the viols mailing list.
Details are at www.vdgsa.org. It's low volume (appreciably less than
one message per day on average), and aside from my humble self there
are at least one or two other people reading it and occasionally
contributing whose names the viol afficionados among you may recognize.
(Inter alia, if "Wendy" and "José" mean something to you without
surnames attached, then you will know who I mean.)
Eric Lam wrote:
> What's out there seems to be Czech Ceske viols that have been around
> for a while, Dan Foster's student viols, and now coming soon,
> Chinese-made viols.
That's about right. You might also inquire of John Pringle whether he
is still producing a student-model instrument if you have not done so.
(These had a slightly simplified design and cheaper materials compared
to his fine profesional-quality instruments.)
> Been in contact with Charlie Ogle. His Chinese viols won't be ready
> until the spring. Been in contact with Wendy Gillispie and her Chinese
> instruments are almost ready for the market. Looks-wise hers seem
> decent. I'm amazed at the back real purfling. They didn't cut on the
> decoration. But soundwise, I have no idea.
I haven't heard them yet myself so I can't advise you from first-hand
knowledge.
Wendy of course is quite enthusiastic about them, but as I understand
it it's her colleague Markku Luolajan-Mikkola in Phantasm who has
worked most directly with the makers on their design.
It will also be interesting to see what Charlie's are going to be like.
He's always done a cracking good job on setting up the Ceske
instruments, and of course he's a maker in his own right as well, so he
knows a thing or two about what he's buying, and has been trying to
give the makers lots of feedback so that they can continue to improve
the quality of their instruments.
I've known both Charlie and Wendy for years and consequently I'm very
happy NOT to be able to help anyone choose between their respective
offerings. It think it's lovely that we are about to be spoiled for
choice with inexpensive but well-designed and set-up viols.
None of this helps a bit you to decide. Sorry.
> Normally, I have reservations with Chinese FACTORY instruments in
> general since I teach elementary string orchestra here in Vancouver,
Hey, how about that? It happens that the Vancouver schools were where
I first encountered Chineese factory violins -- back in the days when
the good ol' US of A for ideological and geopolitical reasons didn't
deign to trade with "Red China" -- and my school orchestra went to
Vancouver on a tour, in the interest of international understanding and
of boosting the school orchestra programs in both places.
> and my school program survives on cheap Chinese instruments like
> Skylarks. But they sound awful even when strung with decent strings
> like Dominants. But I'm willing to take a chance and be open minded
> with Chinese viols. As I understand it's a different playing field
> manufacturing-wise.
Yes, it really is a different end of the market. I think the viols
that are starting to be produced are intended to be more nearly
comparable to the high-end advanced-student instruments that are coming
from there for the past several years that have been warmly recommended
on this newsgroup -- things you could certainly expect the
concertmaster of the local youth orchestra to play on without
complaint, and possibly even struggling young pros to get by with in a
pinch.
The only thing is, good workmanship and materials don't guarantee a a
really good, playable viol if the maker hasn't got experience making
viols. (Come to think of it, that's a good reason for our friend
Stradavari1688 to stick to the Stainer model - it's built much more
like a violin or a cello than French or English viols are. Some of the
best Stainer-model instruments I've seen were made by makers with
well-established reputations for violins and cellos -- I'm thinking of
Sato going many years back and Karl Dennis more recently. Of course
the Stainers by Peter Huetmannsberger, who is cheifly known as a viol
maker, are magnificent instrumnents as well, and may in fact have been
responsible for rekindling interest in the Stainer models worldwide
after a couple of decades of more-or-less unchallenged French
hegemony.) That's why it's so important for makers and/or players to be
involved with the development of the Chinese import instruments.
> The prices for all these instruments seem pretty competitive within
> the $2000 to $2500 USD range.
>
> What are your thoughts?
I think that you already had a very accurate idea of what's available
before you stumbled into me, and that my little commentaries will serve
mainly to confirm to you that that was the case.
> Will be contacting the local early music society--Early Music
> Vancouver for some help as well. Hopefully to solicit opinions and try
> some instruments from players...
An excellent idea. You've also got workshops in your area that draw
people (and instruments) from all over. And of course you'd be very
welcome at the VdGSA Conclave.
Have you played at all yet? The local players and teachers may have a
line on where you could borrow or rent an instrument cheaply to get
started, and then you'd be in a better position to judge the
You WILL need a teacher. A copy of Alison's book, excellent as it is,
only goes so far... and as a violinist you have a certain amount to
UN-learn. Nothing exceedingly difficulty, but just things you wouldn't
think of or catch on your own. Trust me. I walked that path before
you.
Roland Hutchinson
> Will inlays to the back affect the sound adversely?
What sort of inlays? If it's decorative purfling you're talking about,
that is common and as far as I know has no appreciable affect on sound.
> If the French neck is what most players expect in this sort of
> instrument, then that's what I'll go for. Right now, the neck is
> attached as a modern cello neck, but is very robust with a shape
> similar to a Baroque violin neck.
And is the present neck copied from something? I don't think the
method of neck attachment is as critical as the profile of the neck
(and the angle of the neck and the height of the appuy, of course).
Most players aren't even aware of the method of attachment (unless the
neck falls off).
>>Surely you mean 1 cm? That seems on the wide side to me, and it
>>>LOOKS wide
> Yes, I meant 1 cm. To top it off, there is about 7 mm of fingerboard
> width to the left and right sides of the lowest and highest strings,
> respectively.
You do need a BIT of fingerboard width on the outside, particularly on
the top string (if it gets too close to the outside of the fingerboard,
the player will feel uncomfortable, possibly without realising why, as
the top, thin d-string is actually in danger of being pulled off the
fingerboard by the left-hand fingers from time to time as one plays
more-or-less normally.)
> If I assume the placement of the bridge to be similar to the placement
> of the bridge on a cello (more or less slightly below the midline of
> the c-holes), the string length is shortened to 72 cm. If I place the
> bridge further down, as might be seen in some period depictions, I get
> a length of 74 cm.
That's excellent; you may be able to offer a choice of setups, which I
think would be a very good thing. However, the C's are located pretty
low already on this model. Bow clearance could be an issue.
With either bridge placement, we'd normally (i.e. not specific to any
particular model) expect that the fingerboard would extend to a''
on the top (d') string, a twelth above the open string (or just a
smidge beyond to allow for the imponderable changes as the instrument
settles in or the bridge height changes seasonally or the player gets a
new bridge fitted etc.) Higher notes than that (when called for) we
play off the edge of the fingerboard, heaven help us. Some instruments
are fitted with two-octave fingerboards, however. They are not much in
fashion now, I think. That covers pretty much the highest notes ever
written for the instrument (with the exception of one well-known note
in Marais' infamous "Operation" piece, which doesn't count as it's
purely a novelty effect.). Again, I don't know offhand what Stainer's
original setup would have been or even if it is known.
> I'm looking to cater to the continuo set mostly, since most of the
> instruments now available seem to cater to the consort crowd for the
> most part.
I like your thinking. This is an underserved market at the low end.
> These will be made by a Chinese factory. A friend of mine is a
> wholesaler for what seem to be some very good student violins. Knowing
> that I had an avid interest in baroque music, he suggested I make a
> set of drawings and give the whole thing a try. Actually, I was
> unaware that viols were already being produced in China. This sample
> was due about a year ago, but the wholesaler had a falling out with
> the factory, causing a year-long delay.
As mentioned in Eric Lam's posting, the Chinese instruments are just in
the process of being introduced to the market. The Czech ones have
been around for a while.
> I will stick to the large model, but make modifications at points that
> might be questionable to potential buyers.
>>What, if anything, are you planning to do about tenor and treble
>>viols?
>
> Nothing at the moment, but you're not the first person who has asked
> me about the prospect, so it might be a wise idea to explore the
> possibility.
In the fullness of time that would be great. You're certainly on the
right track to start with the bass.
>>If you are going for the student market, offering a matched
>>set can be very attractive to both institutions and individuals.
>
> I was going to offer a "trio sonata" group; two violins and a gamba.
> Do people prefer small violins or large models?
Beats the heck out of me. I'm a viola player when I'm not playing viol.
(Note how I avoided writing "violist" in this context.)
>>How about some cheap violones, while I'm doing up the wish list...
>
> Definitely. It will depend on how the gambas sell, though.
Great!
>>You really need to be talking to someone who makes or restores viols,
> I have, but people seem to be interested in mostly English and French
> instruments.
I sense that you are (quite properly) reluctant to name names in
public. Perhaps we could have a private conversation about this?
> I was thinking of joining the VdGSA as well.
Good idea. Very good idea.
>>Better still, to hang onto the prototype until it's fully debugged.
>
> I would, but I recently was ripped off on eBay (a guy bought a bunch
> of violins and used fake credit cards) and this cut into my reserve
> for ordering the first batch.
I saw your notice on eBay about that. Darned shame; very sorry to hear
about it.
> That being the case, I have to make it
> up somewhere. I am neither a gambist nor a maker--this is all a side
> business and hobby for me. Will people be turned off by someone like
> this having designed their instrument?
It probably won't be a major selling point! But it will depend what
the instrument is actually like. You must have SOME background and
skill in order to be drawing up instruments at all; I know I couldn't
do that!
>>IMHO, you need to get this instrument set up and start
>>showing it to players. Beginning violists da gamba almost always buy
>>instruments based on word-of-mouth recommendations from teachers
>
> When I make my first order, I plan on doing just that. For starters, I
> plan on changing the fingerboard width for this batch (if I find a
> string spacing that is agreeable). I also will ask the factory to use
> maple for the fingerboards. Flush edges seem to be de rigueur as well,
> so I'll go with that. I still don't know if they can do the hookbar.
Well, I bet they could learn. A hookbar isn't hard to make. Just make
damn sure the grain runs the right way!!!
>>The absolute best single thing you could do would be to take the
>>instrument, in playing condition, to the VdGSA's annual workshop (the
>>"Conclave") in the summer -- or have someone take it for you -- and
>>solicit opinions and let people play and hear it.
>
> If I am able to get the first shipment before this time, would someone
> be interested in taking one there?
Undoubtedly. Possibly even me.
>>If this appeals to you, let me know. I know the people at a few such
>>>shops
>
> I would be. I only have contacts at violin shops so far, and something
> like this would be little more than a curiosity.
I'll get on it.
>>Evidently there is some demand. Have you seen what the Early Music
>>Shop in Bradford is offering, for example, in the way of inexpensive
>>violins? or at baroquecello.com ?
>
> Yes I have. Their offerings seem to be exclusively Stradivarian. My
> motto is, "Stick with Stainer" with a little personal touch, of
> course.
Excellent motto! He was, after all, the best maker of baroque violins,
bar none. You could also try "If they were good enough for Biber,
they're good enough for me".
I would advise against too much in the way of "personal touches" unless
they are purely decorative and in exquisitely good taste.
>>You say on eBay that the instrument will be set up before shipping.
>>Who is going to do the setup? Anyone who is actually competent to
>>>set up a
> viol
>
> I'm assuming they're competent. It is a violin shop, but they do work
> on viols.
Could be o.k. Depends on the shop. If they don't know what the normal
range of string spacings on a 7-stringer is, however, I'm dubious.
There's a difference between being able to repair cracks and get a
soundpost up in about the right spot on the one hand, and being able to
set up a viol from scratch on the other. Bridge curve, fingerboard
profile, bow clearance at the bouts are all pretty important to
playability -- as much so as neck profile and string spacing.
Perhaps this is also a matter for a private conversation.
>>Lose the hunk of ebony in any event (an expensive mistake for
>>>someone, I
> should think!).
>
> I don't know why they did that. I told them maple from the get go, the
> wholesaler said rosewood, I said "no way" and here I end up with
> ebony. That must be two pounds by itself.
Rosewood might actually be o.k., I am thinking, but maple I imagine
would be both the lightest and the least expensive.
>>And strings? What are you planing to use to string this one up?
>>Always an interesting question at interesting string lengths, in my
>>experience!
>
> Gut
With covered V VI and VII and possibly half-covered IV for the continuo
crowd; though all-gut may have been the orginal Stainer stringing for
all I know. At any rate you have a choice of about five manufacturers
in the world for the former, and maybe four for the latter (which would
really scare the bejeezus out of modern cellists -- and not a few
gambists). NOT CHEAP, in any event. (Hm, I wonder what the Ceske
people use?)
> or fake gut.
Only available in viol strings from one manufacturer as far as I know.
Not really suitable for the quality of instrument you are aiming for,
IMHO. Of course even I II and III have to be metal-covered when using
a synthetic core. There as yet are no uncovered synthetic strings that
can be bowed. I think this would be the Holy Grail of modern string
technology.
> Silk maybe? I don't know--whatever the factory can
> whip up.
I am VERY, VERY skeptical. Do they even know what tensions they need?
OTOH, if they CAN come up with appropriate strings at low cost, you've
got yourself a potentially profitable side line. But it is not easy to
make good strings.
It really absolutely positively has to be gut.
>>And cases? Do you have a source for hard cases for an instrument
>>>this size?
>
> Guess I could have another factory make them up too, but that will
> come later.
At the moment, I think Kingham are about the only ones prepared to make
custom hard cases for viols. They discount to the trade, so you could
offer them as an option to your buyers. Not the cheapest things on
earth, unfortunately. A decent padded bag (as the Ceske basses are
customarily sold with) is doable, though clearly a second-best option.
You could luck out and find a cheap cello case that it fits in (with
some refitting of the case), but it's not so likely with a big
instrument like this.
Eric Lam
on.
Charlie Ogle has 7 string basses available now. His 6 string basses won't be
coming in until the spring apparently. You might want to contact Wendy
Gillispie. I think her business email is on: http://vdgsa.org/pgs/links.html
Lu-Mi Instruments
I think I'll sit tight and wait several months. The field is developing in
an interesting area now with so many student model instruments up and
coming. Would be foolish to rush into it.
Cheers,
Eric.
"Stradivari1688" <stradiv...@aol.comnenus.ua> wrote in message
news:20030103005557...@mb-cv.aol.com...
Eric Lam
so quickly, it might be prudent to wait a bit to see what comes out on the
field. What's a few months?
I've contacted local players and teachers. Will be learning a bit more about
the instrument before committing myself.
No I haven't played. And I can see what you mean by "un-learning" the
violin. As a start having an instrument tuned in fouths and a third is
already mind games enough for my head. I have exactly the same problem with
fingering when I play the guitar. And I'm sure there are more things that
will come up.
I've read Alison's book. Reading Otterstedt's book too.
Stainer... I'll have to read up on his viols. I really like the Stainer (and
Amati I guess) violin shape with the highly arched tops and backs. Of course
I've only played copies, but a rather small distinctive sound before the
Strad violin model became popular with makers. And real Stainers are still
affordable RELATIVE to Strads. Though they would still be in the high 5 (and
even 6 figures?). Still beyond most of us mortals.
Vancouver is the last school district in this province to still have a
string orchestra program that runs from Grades 4 to 12 in a good portion of
our elementary and secondary schools. Band and choir programs are, as
expected, more popular. But we're still going strong. Severe cuts to the
school board's budget this past year have left many programs devestated. But
we were spared. However, I can't, but have little hope for the next decade.
Chinese violins do make it easier for parents to keep their kids in strings
as much as I dislike their sound. Back to school tomorrow and I look forward
to hearing them as much as the kids can sometimes drive me nuts.
Cheers,
Eric.
"Roland Hutchinson" <my_sp...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:av3vcb$bna5g$1...@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de...
[lots of snipping]
> Wendy of course is quite enthusiastic about them, but as I understand
> it it's her colleague Markku Luolajan-Mikkola in Phantasm who has
> worked most directly with the makers on their design.
>
> It will also be interesting to see what Charlie's are going to be like.
> He's always done a cracking good job on setting up the Ceske
> instruments, and of course he's a maker in his own right as well, so he
> knows a thing or two about what he's buying, and has been trying to
> give the makers lots of feedback so that they can continue to improve
> the quality of their instruments.
>
> I've known both Charlie and Wendy for years and consequently I'm very
> happy NOT to be able to help anyone choose between their respective
> offerings. It think it's lovely that we are about to be spoiled for
> choice with inexpensive but well-designed and set-up viols.
>
> None of this helps a bit you to decide. Sorry.
>
> Hey, how about that? It happens that the Vancouver schools were where
> I first encountered Chineese factory violins -- back in the days when
> the good ol' US of A for ideological and geopolitical reasons didn't
> deign to trade with "Red China" -- and my school orchestra went to
> Vancouver on a tour, in the interest of international understanding and
> of boosting the school orchestra programs in both places.
>
Roland Hutchinson
> Charlie Ogle has 7 string basses available now. His 6 string basses
> won't be coming in until the spring apparently. You might want to
> contact Wendy Gillispie. I think her business email is on:
> http://vdgsa.org/pgs/links.html Lu-Mi Instruments
That MIGHT be a different person (I know there's at least one more
person involved in importing Chinese viols who hasn't been mentioned
here yet). If it is, you can find Wendy's university e-mail address in
human-readable form at http://www.music.indiana.edu/personnel/
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my_sp...@eudoramail.com is heavily filtered to
Daniel Enochsson
off topic, but the mail bounced. Sorry for the off-topic content! At
least some if it is related to the subject. :-)
Hello Roland,
I have been reading the thread "Help with bass viola da gamba (longish)"
with some interest since I have been building a 7-string bass gamba in
my own pace for the past three and a half years at an amateur luthier
course. This spring I also bought a 6-string to start learning to play
as well as to have as reference when coming across difficult phases in
the construction.
My viol is based on the 1691 Colichon in Kessler's collection and I
actually bought my drawing from him at his home when I visited London in
1999. I am changing the design a little partly from his suggestions and
partly because my luthier teacher didn't think the result would be as good
if we tried to bend the front instead of "carve". I am also taking the
liberty to add some purfling ornaments a la Meares on the back and to add
carved ornaments to the sides of the peg box. There will also be some sort
of pirate head on it like Colichon would have liked it :-).This will
probably be the only bass gamba I make and I might as well have as much fun
as possible while making it! In any case I am more interested in making a
decent instrument than copying some of the flaws in the original instrument.
(The neck angle was apparently too "flat" and the top on the thin side. The
instrument was also not perfectly symmetrical in its outline and the
archings of the front.)
My reason for writing you is that you wrote about Kessler in past tense.
I am very seldom updated on what happens in the early music world, so my
question to you is if the lovely man has passed on. I would assume so from
your text.
Anyway it has been nice following your comments (and others) in the thread.
I guess I really should get that website started about my gamba making
project...
Best regards,
/Daniel Enochsson
Roland Hutchinson wrote:
<snip>
> The chapter on the viol is by Dietrich Kessler, who was one of the most
> highly regarded makers of the 20th century. We owe much of our
> understanding of historical viol construction to his research and the
> restoration work that he undetook in his London shop. He was, for
> example, the person who discovered and documented the way that English
> (and some French) makers built up the belly out of bent staves.
NB. The email address is not valid. Just reply to this newsgroup and I
will read your reply!
Stradivari1688
>You might want to contact Wendy
>Gillispie. I think her business email is on: http://vdgsa.org/pgs/links.html
>Lu-Mi Instruments
I contacted her and she sent me a few pictures. Aside from some adjustments in
the construction of my instruments, it looks like I'll be OK as mine seem to be
comparable craftsmanship-wise.
I'm offering a completely different sort of instrument, though. The Lu-Mi viols
seem to be patterned mostly on English models. They look like very nice
instruments.
Eric Lam
with my orchestra kids... I was completely surprised at the level of
exterior detail they invested into these Chinese viols.
If I remember correctly, double purfling all round. Including the C holes.
Geometric diamond purfling shapes on the back. And a pierced scroll.
Not sure about the construction methods. But they look good. But it won't be
cheaper than the Czech Ceske viols. The level of exterior decoration already
betrays that.
I think she said modelled after a Jaye or Norman pattern. Yes. English
model.
Eric.
"Stradivari1688" <stradiv...@aol.comnenus.ua> wrote in message
news:20030108121538...@mb-fl.aol.com...