Students have asked me about this and I always say, no, it's not at at
all necessary to hold these fingers down.
What is "block fingering" about, who thought this one up, and what is
the purpose? On SuuzkiXChange there is a thread with some explanation.
I agree with the writer who feels there is more freedom and less
tension with independent fingers. I'd love to know the full history of
this.
Thanks!
Connie
_________________
**********************************
MUSIC STUDIO
http://beststudentviolins.com/Studio.html
Something of a refinement of this occured in my studies with Gerle
who taught us finger patterns, a concept also contained in his book.
While nothing too radical, his refinement was a codification of
nomenclature to facilitate communication between teacher and
student e.g. use finger pattern 1 etc. (It serves about the same
purpose as calling the positions first, third fifth etc. At some
point, a player doesn't even think about this or think about what
position he is in at a given moment (particularly one he can play
comfortably to the top of the finger board (I don't even think of
numbered positions up there for very high C's and D's) but if
facilitates communication to say finger that passage in sixth
position and shift down to third...or whatever.
Gerle's finger patterns, which really is just trying to get a student
to think ahead about how the fingers should be spread is a boon to
teaching intonation...at least not to make gross errors in intonation.
BTW, Gerle's widow, Pianist Marilyn Neeley, former dean of the School
of Music at Catholic University in Washington DC and a virtoso
pianist, died last week at the age of 69 of pneumonia as a
complication of cancer. Gerle died two years ago at age 81 of
Parkinson's Disease. Both were great teachers and performers.
Jon
"Block fingering" is used, especially with the 3 and 4 year olds that
do not have
the best dexterity, to shape the hand in the beginning. Getting the
fingers curved
and learning placement on the tapes. It should actually be called
"walking fingers"
as you want them to go down by themselves as opposed to all plopping
down
together.
Independent fingers should IDEALLY be taught before Song of the Wind
as the
second finger should stay up while doing the 3 on the A & E strings.
This of
course is dependent upon the age and current dexterity of the child.
Tim Putnam
Putnam Enterprises
http://www.PutnamViolins.com
http://www.LifeWave.com/T13
Jon, my condolences about the Gerles. I didn't know he had
Parkinson. What a tragedy for a violinist.
It sounds like a good idea for that age rage, especially.
> It should actually be called "walking fingers" as you want them to go down by themselves as opposed to all plopping
> down together.
But "it," here, you mean independent fingers? "Walking fingers" are
the independent ones? I'll share with my friend that it has been
indicated that independent fingers should be taught before Song of the
Wind. But since Song of the Wind is the second piece after the
Twinkles, I can see that perhaps it's not suitable to adult students
as much.
In another area, how long, on average, do 3-4 year olds take to learn
the Twinkle? I find that my students who are starting at 7-9 years,
and my adult students, will take six to eight weeks to "pass their
Twinkle," but I think teachers more Suzuki-oriented that I have been,
take much longer...??
Thanks so much!
According to his autobio (Playing it by Heart...a good read BTW)
Gerle had identifiable Parkinsons for about 20 years and it ended
his performance career although he did extensive teaching at Catholic
U and U-MD Baltimore County (where I studied with him.) The onset
of Parkinsons was at least 10 years after my time of study. I wasn't
aware of it until after he died, but I had not seen him for years.
Marilyn Neeley did the Tschaikowsky 1st with us during my time at UMBC
as a special student and a member of that orchestra. (I was in my
early 30's at the time.) I was not aware of her illness either. I saw
a small paid obit in the Washington Post last Thursday. Later the
Baltimore Sun, the Washington Post and the LA Times (she was an LA
native) had editorial obits on her, the Post had a photo and it was
the lead obit that day.
Jon
Can anyone explain more about how this would apply to more advanced
players?
In general, my teacher has been teaching me to keep as many fingers
down as possible, so that often you end up with fingers still down
on one string, while playing on another. This almost seems to be the
opposite of what is being described here for young beginners, where
it sounds like the typical progression is to start them off keeping
multiple fingers down, but then start training them to put down only
one finger at a time...?
I do find it a little awkward to do vibrato with two or three fingers
on the string. OTOH, I can't imagine playing Sevcik-type stuff while
only putting down one finger at a time.
Am I completely misunderstanding what this discussion is about?
As I am gathering from other teachers, block fingers are used in
teaching beginners in the 3-4 year old range. And discontinued by
"Song of the Wind," which is, as I'm sure you know, the second piece
after the Twinkles. It appears to be typical for a 3-4 year old to
take as much as a year to master the Twinkles, which some adults can
learn in anywhere for two to eight weeks. (Six is the norm, in my
experience, though adults who have studied music in the past, or are
especially motivated and hard working, can do Twinkles in much shorter
time, two to three weeks.)
I had never been exposed to this ispecific dea, somehow, but students
have asked me (adult students), did they need to leave the fingers
down below the stopping finger. My response is that it isn't required
and further, I wouldn't recommend it. But with little children, I can
see how this technique might help develop the shape of the hand, the
curvature of the fingers and the proper placement of the fingertips.
I don't think it's appropriate for adults, though I'm certainly open
to new ideas.
With intonation, which is the primary issue here, I use the
development of sensibilities to the overtones and the ringing strings,
and the frame of the first and third fingers (with the high and low 2
in between the frame), initially; later the frame of the major and
minor scales, and the arpeggios and chord structures become more
important: the context of the key area. This is why studying piano is
so helpful to string players, because they can see things on the piano
easier. When I teach, we sit in front of the piano and I use the
piano to explain theory.
I don't know about your teacher having you hold your fingers down all
the time. There is a sort of unwritten rule that you do hold the
fingers down when it's helpful, but "all the time," I'm not sure about
that. Odd things do go on sometimes in lessons, when teachers have
not thought deeply about some issue or have misunderstood some
stricture from another teacher. I'm not saying that's the case with
your teacher, Ben, but it's I suppose possible.
Connie
**********************************************
Student, Step-up and Fine Violins
http://beststudentviolins.com.violins.html
Sometimes it's rather striking how very eminent people pass through
the planet without much fuss. One of my favorite books, for example,
Bertrand Russell's _Understanding History_ is both out of print and,
until recently, unavailable for sale anywhere I could determine.
Then, suddenly, a number of copies were available on Amazon, some of
which I purchased. This tiny little book, comprising just a few brief
essays by Russell -- and said to have been written by him as a "pot
boiler" to make money -- is, in fact, the most remarkable document.
But a lot of people don't know who Russell is, or know little or
nothing about his work.
A recent Russell revival has occurred, I think because of the
popularity of Richard Dawkins' books, specifically _The God Delusion_
which work is akin to Russell and quotes Russell widely, as is
appropriate. But often, important events that affect humankind are
not very much popularized. The Gerle's illness and death falls into
that category. Again, my deepest condolences, Jon.
**********************************************
Student, Step-up and Fine Violins
I do second Connie's suggestion about the utility of piano.
Unfortunately, my parents did not have a piano when I started violin
because we usually lived in flats and we were not particularly
wealthy...sort of genteelly lower middle class. (A pity too, my mother
was a very good pianist and organist.)
A lot of intonation cleared up when at a fairly advanced age (33) I
took piano. I became passably good on piano (though neglected
now since I play violin so much in four orchestras) although I would
be very reluctant to perform on piano for any but my captive family
audience who seem to have great skill in tuning me out.
Jon
> Can anyone explain more about how this would apply to more advanced
> players?
>
> In general, my teacher has been teaching me to keep as many fingers
> down as possible, so that often you end up with fingers still down
> on one string, while playing on another.
In general that's probably a good idea. The more you can keep all
"unused" fingers relaxed and in position on the string, the less work
it'll be to get to the next notes -- and less difficulty making each
finger land in tune. Make sure not to clamp the fingers down; just be
gentle.
> I do find it a little awkward to do vibrato with two or three fingers
> on the string. OTOH, I can't imagine playing Sevcik-type stuff while
> only putting down one finger at a time.
As my teachers all say: when doing vibrato, all bets are off :-) . Let
your hand collapse around the finger which is sounding the note.
--
Team EM to the rescue! mailto:ca...@Team-EM.com http://www.team-em.com
I would have thought that your early singing experience would benefit
intonation more than piano study late in life would. The piano is a great
tool for studying theory (as Connie says), but for intonation -- Feh! -- an
indifferent and inflexible approximation at best. I would love to see more
children who are learning strings do something like Kodály-approach singing
and solfège both before and while studying their instrument -- learning to
sing and hear accurately without relying on an instrument.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
The thing is, modern playing style -- and modern plastic strings -- require
vibrato on practically every note (very rapid notes excepted). So it is a
real balancing act.
One bit of advice: Especially in rapid passages, even when you have to lift
the fingers, don't lift them too high. It's easier to play both fast and
accurately if the fingers only have to fall a fraction of an inch -- the
tinier the better (all other things being equal).
Also, a bit of figure-ground reversal can help with avoiding the
dreaded "death grip" and keeping the finger motions light and rapid and
fluid: think of picking up the left-hand fingers, rather than setting them
down, as the thing that requires (light) muscular effort. Have the idea
that they will fall almost on their own if you just stop holding them up.
(This idea I steal, and perhaps distort, from Walter Van Hauwe's _The Modern
Recorder Player_, of all places. Next lesson: why string players should
read Phil Farkas's _The Art of French Horn Playing_.)
>t.
>
>I would have thought that your early singing experience would benefit
>intonation more than piano study late in life would. The piano is a great
>tool for studying theory (as Connie says), but for intonation -- Feh! -- an
>indifferent and inflexible approximation at best. I would love to see more
>children who are learning strings do something like Kodály-approach singing
>and solfčge both before and while studying their instrument -- learning to
>sing and hear accurately without relying on an instrument.
>
Perhaps I used the wrong word when I said intonation. This was more of
a question of just missing the note by somewhat lacksidaisical
listening and early string teachers who did insist upon (or who didn't
know about...they weren't really string players themselves) more
careful consideration to hitting the right note in a half-step, whole
step sense. Once you can get the finger fairly close, the rest is
about developing a sense of intonation such as learning the difference
between Bb (A string 1st position) as beat against an open E and the
same note (more or less) beat against an open D. For the former, the
sense of spatial relationships can more easily be seen on a piano than
on a violin; for the later...well, that is where art departs from
science. The sense of pitch I may have developed as a kid singer (I
really quit singing when my voice changed) had to be rekindled.
Jon
> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 02:27:27 -0400, Roland Hutchinson
> <my.sp...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>t.
>>
>>I would have thought that your early singing experience would benefit
>>intonation more than piano study late in life would. The piano is a great
>>tool for studying theory (as Connie says), but for intonation -- Feh! --
>>an
>>indifferent and inflexible approximation at best. I would love to see
>>more children who are learning strings do something like Kodály-approach
>>singing and solfège both before and while studying their instrument --
>>learning to sing and hear accurately without relying on an instrument.
>>
>
> Perhaps I used the wrong word when I said intonation. This was more of
> a question of just missing the note by somewhat lacksidaisical
> listening and early string teachers who did insist upon (or who didn't
> know about...they weren't really string players themselves) more
> careful consideration to hitting the right note in a half-step, whole
> step sense. Once you can get the finger fairly close, the rest is
> about developing a sense of intonation such as learning the difference
> between Bb (A string 1st position) as beat against an open E and the
> same note (more or less) beat against an open D. For the former, the
> sense of spatial relationships can more easily be seen on a piano than
> on a violin; for the later...well, that is where art departs from
> science. The sense of pitch I may have developed as a kid singer (I
> really quit singing when my voice changed) had to be rekindled.
Got it!
The keyboard gives you a map of pitch-space (graduated by semitones) --
useful both conceptually and aurally.
One can get the same thing through singing, especially when solfège
instruction is reinforced by the use some sort of visual/spatial model:
e.g. using Glover and Curwen's "modulator" chart or the Curwen-Kodály hand
signs placed vertically between waist-level and eye-level, or indeed using
a drawing of a portion of a piano keyboard.
I think I got it initially through string instruction, though -- I was
fortunate enough to be taught by string speciallists in the schools, and to
have private lessons early on, so I was totally indoctrinated on the
difference between half and whole steps. I understood the system long
before I could play in tune with any appreciable accuracy -- and I think
the realization that tuning of each half-step _wasn't_ fixed was critical
in finally learning to do that.
I hasten to add that the elementary solfeggio I learned in third and
fourth grades was closer to the "Do, a deer, a female deer" level
than collegiate Ear Training 101. My solfeggio antedates "Sound of
Music" by ten years...1950-51 vs. ca.1959 or 60 for the Broadway
version of the R & H show. I still have never had formal ear training
lessons and I would not pretend that I really could sight sing that
well. I did once talk to an instructor at a college level Theory 101
taught in conjunction with Ear Training 101 about the possibility
of taking such a course at a local Junior College when I retired eight
years ago . His take was that at the level I play at, I would probably
find the theory course a bore since he figured I knew 95% of what was
covered by experience and osmosis and that my rather encyclopedic
knowledge of the repetory was so thorough that three notes into any of
the dictation example they give, I would know how the piece goes
anyway. He said that most of his students were "ex-high school garage
rock band members" who probably could not read music at all and knew
at best only three or four guitar chords. Since I just turned 65 last
month, I am now eligible to take courses at the local JuCo for free. I
might have to reconsider. Up to now, all my college level music
courses have either been applied lessons or music history. My
concentration in both undergrad and grad school was liberal arts.
My grad degree is actually called Master of Liberal Arts...pretty
close to being a Master of Things in General, (but from a good
school...Johns Hopkins.)
Jon
> My
> concentration in both undergrad and grad school was liberal arts.
> My grad degree is actually called Master of Liberal Arts...pretty
> close to being a Master of Things in General, (but from a good
> school...Johns Hopkins.)
I suppose my Bachelor of Science in Humanities and Science qualifies me to
be an entry-level generalist, at least. Also from a good school.
> Jon Teske wrote:
>
> > My
> > concentration in both undergrad and grad school was liberal arts.
> > My grad degree is actually called Master of Liberal Arts...pretty
> > close to being a Master of Things in General, (but from a good
> > school...Johns Hopkins.)
>
> I suppose my Bachelor of Science in Humanities and Science qualifies me to
> be an entry-level generalist, at least. Also from a good school.
Hmmm... so what's an ABD in Physics worth? :-)
>In article <5cpmqkF...@mid.individual.net>,
> Roland Hutchinson <my.sp...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Jon Teske wrote:
>>
>> > My
>> > concentration in both undergrad and grad school was liberal arts.
>> > My grad degree is actually called Master of Liberal Arts...pretty
>> > close to being a Master of Things in General, (but from a good
>> > school...Johns Hopkins.)
>>
>> I suppose my Bachelor of Science in Humanities and Science qualifies me to
>> be an entry-level generalist, at least. Also from a good school.
>
>Hmmm... so what's an ABD in Physics worth? :-)
At least you can do something useful. I probably have the equivalent
of an ABD in credits, but much of it is in classified fields for which
they don't give degrees (Machine Cryptanalysis for example.) Now
that I am retired from the Gov't spook world, not a whole lot you can
do with codebreaking, (as opposed to communications security, the
other mission of my Agency, a mission in which I never participated)
unless you wished to become a traitor. The rationale for getting my
Masters was to have additional "brownie" points in the very military
type of promotion board system my agency used for civilians. If two
equal candidates came before the board, the one with a Masters won. It
worked for me three times.
Jon
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:03:01 -0400, Carl Witthoft <ca...@witthoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <5cpmqkF...@mid.individual.net>,
> > Roland Hutchinson <my.sp...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Jon Teske wrote:
> >>
> >> > My
> >> > concentration in both undergrad and grad school was liberal arts.
> >> > My grad degree is actually called Master of Liberal Arts...pretty
> >> > close to being a Master of Things in General, (but from a good
> >> > school...Johns Hopkins.)
> >>
> >> I suppose my Bachelor of Science in Humanities and Science qualifies me to
> >> be an entry-level generalist, at least. Also from a good school.
> >
> >Hmmm... so what's an ABD in Physics worth? :-)
>
> At least you can do something useful.
Hey-- please tell my boss that. (hehe)
Meanwhile I've got a daughter who's a rising senior, Physics major, who
also rakes it in playing the fiddle on street corners. Something tells
me there's a Physics Dept somewhere that's going to get more than they
bargained for in a future grad student.
(She also plays a bit of classical violin, but that's sort of "on the
side.")
This retirement thing is starting to sound good to me -- then I can
practice 2 hrs a day and maybe actually get some sound out of my poor
cello.
I have a friend who's a cryptographer, and he works at a university and
publishes all his research.
>Jon Teske wrote:
>> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:03:01 -0400, Carl Witthoft <ca...@witthoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <5cpmqkF...@mid.individual.net>,
>>> Roland Hutchinson <my.sp...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jon Teske wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My
>>>>> concentration in both undergrad and grad school was liberal arts.
>>>>> My grad degree is actually called Master of Liberal Arts...pretty
>>>>> close to being a Master of Things in General, (but from a good
>>>>> school...Johns Hopkins.)
>>>> I suppose my Bachelor of Science in Humanities and Science qualifies me to
>>>> be an entry-level generalist, at least. Also from a good school.
Carl Witthold wrote:
>>> Hmmm... so what's an ABD in Physics worth? :-)
>>
>> At least you can do something useful. I probably have the equivalent
>> of an ABD in credits, but much of it is in classified fields for which
>> they don't give degrees (Machine Cryptanalysis for example.) Now
>> that I am retired from the Gov't spook world, not a whole lot you can
>> do with codebreaking, (as opposed to communications security, the
>> other mission of my Agency, a mission in which I never participated)
>> unless you wished to become a traitor. The rationale for getting my
>> Masters was to have additional "brownie" points in the very military
>> type of promotion board system my agency used for civilians. If two
>> equal candidates came before the board, the one with a Masters won. It
>> worked for me three times.
>
>I have a friend who's a cryptographer, and he works at a university and
>publishes all his research.
For a part of my early career I was a cryptolinguist (a guy who breaks
codes and ciphers on linguistic principles as opposed to mathematical
ones.) Everything I touched in my work was classified so publishing in
anything but house journals or internal documents was not allowed.
I did a little of this, mostly as working aids for internal
comsumption. Most of the university stuff I have seen is in the field
of cryptomathematics (I'm very math challenged so little of that made
much sense to me.) A lot of that is related to the development of
algorithms for various types of public cryptography and an analysis as
to the vulnerabity of this encryption. I think some of our agency's
mathemeticians work with those folks as contractors, and in academic
circles, but I had almost no interaction with those folks. At the time
I was doing this (1960's) we were still trying to break into things
like Enigma machines left over from WW II. Those days are long gone. I
later went into things more like program management, policy, and staff
work including a stint at the White House (non-political committee
work on a project in the first Bush administration.) As a career
Civil Servant, I was by-law, outside of partisan politics. I worked
for seven Presidents [Johnson through Clinton.] I was a Fed
for 35 years. After I retired, I never set foot in my Agency again
(nor could I...they punch your badge when you retire and pull your
security clearance.)
Retirement is terrific assuming you have the means to afford it.
Fortunately both my wife and I have defined benefit pensions, mine
federal, hers from the state from her years as a teacher and school
principal. I play about 25 concerts every year (two this weekend.)
Tomorrow I'm doing the Haffner symphony, Exultate Jubilate (both
Mozart), Ravel's Pavane, and the Brahms Haydn Variations with the
Washington Sinfonietta at what was Lyndon Johnson's church when he was
President. We are about four blocks from the White House. This group,
founded last summer, is a chamber orchestra and very well may be the
best non-pro orchestra in the area. The folks running it have been
very selective about the playing ability of our members. Almost all of
them have been trained in Music at the collegiate level (including me)
but work in other fields or are professional music teachers. Sunday,
another of my four orchestras is backing up fiddler Mark O'Conner at a
concert in Columbia MD for the Columbia Festival of the Arts. This is
not one of our regular concerts. We had the last of those last
Saturday when we did Dvorak's New World, and the William Bolcom Violin
concerto with the concertmaster of the Baltimore Symphony as soloist.
Next Sunday, I have the last concert until the end of August with
another group. That will be the Eroica, Egmont, and Lalo Cello
Concerto. I'm doing that concert on viola. I will do another Eroica at
the end of summer, I hope on violin.
Yesterday (Thursday) three members of the Washington Sinfonietta,
including me, played on a busy street corner during the morning rush
hour in front of the church.. All three of us are violinists and two
of us also play viola. We played for about an hour and a quarter. We
were really trying to get to the walking commuters who live in the
many condos very near the church to invite them to come to tomorrows
concert. While we played everything from Viotti duos, a Dvorak
Terzetto, the Mozart Violin/Viola duo and even some Bluegrass, two
board members were passing out flyers to passersby. This church is
right on the North end of the Washington business district on Mass.
Ave. at 14th St. NW.
This church is hosting our group and although we are not a part of the
church's ministry, we have already done one collaborative effort with
their choir (The Faure Requiem and a Haydn Mass) and more planned
for next year. They give us rehearsal space, the performance venue,
the church itself, parking and several parishioners are on our board.
Church members are also our core audience. The orchestra members are
for the most part rather young, many in their 20's. I am the oldest
member at age 65 (and I can still keep up with those whippersnappers
:-)
There can be life after working.
Jon Teske