CNC made violins
Paul
playing the violin but I would like to make one on the CNC mill. Are there
any makers that use this method? I can create 3D computer cad models of all
the parts and produce them precisely on a CNC milling machine. I would leave
just enough material for finishing and tuning the top and bottom plates. I
could also mill the ribs as one piece. In other words the sides, end
blocks and corner blocks would be one unit, thus eliminating the need to
bend the sides. I would simply mill the shape out of a block of maple. Is
this method a total turn off for Violinists? I know people tend to put a lot
of stock into total hand made.
Tho X. Bui
You can mill all the parts except for the ribs; and there are a number
of builders who do this, some even admit to it.
The ribs have to be bent, or you'll run into endgrain situation and
it'll have zero strength.
Of course, if you're familiar with wood working, you'd never use the
words "precisely" and "wood" in the same sentence :-)
Tho
Peter Schug
sin...@bellsouth.net wrote on 7/4/02 3:15 AM:
There are builders who use templates mounted on the wood and a drill press
with a cutter in it to get fairly close to the finished dimensions. The last
time I e-mailed on of these guys he said that he gave it up. It was easier
and faster to just carve it. Of course there was a lot more hand work in his
approach than yours.
One of the problems is that the most you will find is five cross sections,
and outline and one (centerline) long section. The five cross sections do
not cover all the points of interest. In fact, the points of the violin tend
to be an artistic melding of the edges and the channel that are done by eye
and are not one of the common places to get a cross section. You could get
your own sections, but that is a bit of work.
As Tho already mentioned the ribs are bent. It is not hard to bend the ribs
since they are only one mm thick. Milled ribs would have to be way heavier
to have any strength. You would wind up with a heavy fiddle with no fancy
grain running around the edges. I can think of one advantage, but the
disadvantages outweigh all else.
I found the link to the guy who did the template carving on David van
Zandt's site, but I don't remember his name. David van Zandt's site is:
http//www.seatac.net/dtvz
He has tons of links to various fiddle web sites from which you may glean
many ideas.
Pete
--
Check out my fiddle building web site
http://home.att.net/~PeteSchug/
Updated July 23, 2000
J. Teske
with some form of CNC. Custom makers do not. The finish work is done
by hand for all but the cheapest violins as there must be some tonal
matching of the bottom and the top plates which are two different
species of wood...the top usually spruce and the rest usually maple.
Milling the whole thing would be a total turn off for anyone who knows
anything at all about violins. The grain of the wood on the ribs
would be all wrong. Violin makers also have to be able to peel off the
top and back plates to repair things such as the inevitable cracks
which will appear. Remember, a violin is nearly "forever" so we are
talking about the needs of a repair so far up to 350 years down the
pike. I know that the maker of my violin used a primitave form of
large milling machine to do the rough out for bass viols. This was 30
years ago before there were such things as CNC on a practical level.
As a player and potential purchaser of a violin, your totally milled
product would never get my consideration. As far as milling component
parts e.g. necks, scrolls, backs, without the outside assistance of
an expert, I might have difficulty telling if it was done...but I am a
player, not a maker.
OTOH violins have been made of such things as steel. Heifetz
experimented with one, once, for outdoor concerts where weather might
put a fine violin at risk. I believe the experiment was not
successful, or at least not satisfactory for a violinist of his
calibre. I have never even seen such a violin.
Jon Teske, violinist
On Thu, 4 Jul 2002 00:15:23 -0700, "Paul" <sin...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Helen Cebis
Are we talking aluminum or some other metal? I cant see
metal having the right qualities for resonance...the thought of a metal
cello also makes me shudder in horror.
I hope I never get to see one.It would be interesting if someone on here had
a knowledge of the impact of metal v wood on acoustics and how the sound
waves reaction when they hit metal v wood.
Helen
"J. Teske" <jdt...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3d246cd...@news.md.comcast.giganews.com...
> Many factory makers mill the rough out for the top and bottom plates
> with some form of CNC. Custom makers do not. The finish work is done
> by hand for all but the cheapest violins as there must be some tonal
> matching of the bottom and the top plates which are two different
> species of wood...the top usually spruce and the rest usually maple.
>[snipped]>
GoHabsGo
many of them sound very fine. No reason a violin couldn't be made out of
metal. I can see it now - the violin-dobro ...
Larry
"Helen Cebis" <m3ga...@icenet.com.au> wrote in
news:10258063...@news.satix.net:
J. Teske
<m3ga...@icenet.com.au> wrote:
>Dear Jon,
> Are we talking aluminum or some other metal?
I don't know. I only saw a picture of it. It dated from the 1930's or
so
I cant see
>metal having the right qualities for resonance...the thought of a metal
>cello also makes me shudder in horror.
Come to think of it, I think I did once see a metal cello...back when
I was a kid ca. early 1950's. I don't have much memory of it. I think
some kid had it in the family and wanted to use it for school lessons.
I think the instructor wouldn't let him as it sounded so bad...even
when everyone else were playing very marginal instruments. I think the
scroll/neck were wood though.
>I hope I never get to see one.It would be interesting if someone on here had
>a knowledge of the impact of metal v wood on acoustics and how the sound
>waves reaction when they hit metal v wood.
Well, I suppose if metal had been truly successful, we would have seen
a lot more metal instruments. Since metal could be stamped, it would
have been a lot less labor intensive to build one. Remember, we have
something like 400 years of experimentation behind us in the
development of the classical violin. Some might argue that we still
don't have it right or else we would be punching out Strads every
time.
Jon
Tho X. Bui
of metal but a speaker diaphram.
http://home.earthlink.net/~blahx3/_images/violinexperiment.jpg
And the sound comparison:
normal violin: http://home.earthlink.net/~blahx3/_images/violinbest.mp3
resonator violin: http://home.earthlink.net/~blahx3/_images/violinspeaker.mp3
I have also built a guitar, a 4 string mandolin, and a cello using the
same principle.
BTW, the aluminum cello exist. I believe a company was making it for
the one of the armed forces. If I can find a link to it again, I'll
post it.
Tho
GoHabsGo wrote:
>
> C'mon! Open your mind up! Guitars have been made out of steel for years and
> many of them sound very fine. No reason a violin couldn't be made out of
> metal. I can see it now - the violin-dobro ...
>
> "Helen Cebis" <m3ga...@icenet.com.au> wrote in
Tho X. Bui
"J. Teske" wrote:
>
> Many factory makers mill the rough out for the top and bottom plates
> with some form of CNC. Custom makers do not.
I'm not sure we can't quite blanketly say that custom makers do not.
String magazine (April 02) reported that some folks are doing it, or at
the very least, thinking about doing it. They quoted J. Curtin (a well
known maker) as saying "I don't care whether the maker used their
fingernails or used a CNC."
Another interesting quote from the article by G. Rabut: "The player may
like the idea that it was completely hand made...the tree was felled
with an ax, split out, and carved by hand. It's almost like religion.
But sitting in the concert hall, could you tell the difference between
an instrument that was roughed by hand or by machine? I dont think so."
Implied is that there is a strong pressure on the maker from admitting
whether or not he/she is using automated equipment.
Personally, I like the idea of CNC for roughing out. It reduces the
risk of this wood worker from removing one or more of his fingers from
his left hand during the woodworking process :-)
Tho
Peter Schug
years. Believe it or not they are still played as folk instruments in parts
of europe and I think Indonesia. (anyone have details?)
Pete
--
Check out my fiddle building web site
http://home.att.net/~PeteSchug/
Updated July 23, 2000
in article Xns924193B94E36Ego...@130.133.1.4, GoHabsGo at
goha...@mailandnews.com wrote on 7/4/02 2:33 PM:
Peter Schug
violin and someone gave him a toy violin made of tin which he promptly
jumped up and down on. (he probably thought that he was being made fun of)
My teacher has a toy tin violin (about 1/8 size) on a curio shelf, and I
remember them from when I was a kid. I wanted one, but what I really wanted
was some rosin to experiment with. Supposedly they could be played. Metal
strings and a cotton (looked like) ribbon for the bow hair.
Pete
--
Check out my fiddle building web site
http://home.att.net/~PeteSchug/
Updated July 23, 2000
in article 3d24a67a...@news.md.comcast.giganews.com, J. Teske at
jdt...@comcast.net wrote on 7/4/02 3:53 PM:
Peter Schug
bla...@earthlink.net wrote on 7/4/02 11:37 PM:
International Violin sells rough carved violin parts. Tops, bottoms and
completed ribs, add a carved neck and you are almost there. In Radio Control
modelling these would be called ARF's or "Almost Ready to Fly."
All the fine work is left to the builder. Nothing wrong with that except
price. The wood quality is probably good and nobody would carve wood that
hasn't been dried properly and then watch their investment go down the tubes
as it starts drying out and cracking on the shelf.
I like starting from scratch until that moment I start planing the wood
prior to gluing the halves together. (I don't think CNC will help with that
step) At that point I remember that actual physical hard work is involve!
Helen Cebis
heared so much variation in instruments and sometimes age and price were the
opposite to what you'd expect.You're right if we knew how to create a Strad
or Del Gesu every time they would be worth no more than your standard full
size reasonably priced new violin.
Helen.
"J. Teske" <jdt...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3d24a67a...@news.md.comcast.giganews.com...
Charles F. Gaumond
Smithsonian, in the exhibit about materials, there is an alumnum
violin on display. The small card describes the builder thought that
aluminum has good acoustical properties, but unfortunately discovered
that structurally weak pure aluminum possessed these good qualities
while structurally strong aluminum alloys did not.
After seeing that exhibit, I have wondered if the loss mechanisms in a
metal violin could be controlled with contrained layer damping
material.
On Fri, 5 Jul 2002 00:43:54 +0800, "Helen Cebis"
<m3ga...@icenet.com.au> wrote:
Peter Schug
gau...@nrl.navy.mil wrote on 7/5/02 1:16 PM:
> On the first floor of the Museum of American History building of the
> Smithsonian, in the exhibit about materials, there is an alumnum
> violin on display. The small card describes the builder thought that
> aluminum has good acoustical properties, but unfortunately discovered
> that structurally weak pure aluminum possessed these good qualities
> while structurally strong aluminum alloys did not.
>
> After seeing that exhibit, I have wondered if the loss mechanisms in a
> metal violin could be controlled with contrained layer damping
> material.
>
Eons ago, when I first read Carleen Hutchins article on violin acoustics in
The Scientific American I had this idea that a top bedded in the right
amount of high hysteresis(sp?) loss rubber would have all it's resonance
peaks flattened. If the right amount of damping could be found you could
make very easy to play, good sounding violins. At the time I thought that
the purfling had something to do with the damping of unwanted resonance
peaks.
That was all way before I began playing fiddles.
There are some interesting instruments being made with carbon fiber, and if
we get into materials other than wood I expect carbon fiber to be one of the
materials that makes it possible to build good instruments in
non-traditional ways.
Spruce is considered the wood that is strongest for it's weight and is the
wood most often chosen for soundboards on any string instruments where it is
available. Carbon fiber is probably the strongest material for it's weight,
so (I haven't heard much about boron fiber lately) it is a likely choice,
especially when used in a sandwich with a plastic foam core.
If my apartment wasn't already so cluttered I'd be interested in
experimenting with carbon fiber and foam tops myself. I think I could make a
curing oven in a day or two, and a vacuum molding setup in another day or
two, but the only place left to put anything is on top of my bed or on top
of this computer, so the idea is on hold until I get a bigger place or part
with some of my beloved books and other dust catchers.
Peter Schug
m3ga...@icenet.com.au wrote on 7/5/02 11:21 AM:
> And all we have perfected in all that time is imperfection itself. I've
> heared so much variation in instruments and sometimes age and price were the
> opposite to what you'd expect.You're right if we knew how to create a Strad
> or Del Gesu every time they would be worth no more than your standard full
> size reasonably priced new violin.
>
> Helen.
I don't know about anyone else, but I would love to have a low cost
instrument that plays as good as the best instruments of all time. The
originals would still have their historic value and all of us would have to
face up to the fact that with superb instruments at our disposal we are
still not much better than before.
Ego trampling though it would be I would like to have a great sounding
instrument. Somehow though I think that as much as anyone might love their
Strads and Del Gesu's there is probably no instrument that is so perfect
that it's owner can't imagine something that they would like improved.
J. Teske
with fiberglass or carbon fiber composite construction for cellos. I'd
be interesting in hearing more about them.
Jon Teske
Tho X. Bui
Peter Schug wrote:
> Helen Cebis at m3ga...@icenet.com.au wrote on 7/5/02 11:21 AM:
>
> > And all we have perfected in all that time is imperfection itself. I've
> > heared so much variation in instruments and sometimes age and price were the
> > opposite to what you'd expect.You're right if we knew how to create a Strad
> > or Del Gesu every time they would be worth no more than your standard full
> > size reasonably priced new violin.
>
> I don't know about anyone else, but I would love to have a low cost
> instrument that plays as good as the best instruments of all time.
Personally, I would love to be able to sound like, say, Mr. Menuhin
playing a 99$ Ebay special :-)
Re: alternative materials
I have recently been playing with changing the tone of one of my
instruments by attaching very small weight at different places on the
sound board and the bridge. This is done via using very small Neodymium
rare earth magnet pairs on either side of the top or the bridge. I
have lots of these since I work for a magnet company, but y'all can also
find them at Radio Shack. They pull together strongly, so a piece of
scotch tape on the contacting surfaces will allow you to attach weight
w/o doing any damage to the instrument. Placing them on the bridge make
very interesting alteration to the sound, sometimes you can alter just
the treble or the bass specifically.
By the way, if anyone wants an "alternative" material violin, and have
135$ to spend, go to www.elderly.com and buy a Macaferri injection
molded polystyrene violin. It will need some set up--mainly, some wood
pegs, but it does sound like a violin.
Tho
Peter Schug
jdt...@comcast.net wrote on 7/6/02 12:30 AM:
> I have read about [but have not seen or heard] some experimentation
> with fiberglass or carbon fiber composite construction for cellos. I'd
> be interesting in hearing more about them.
>
> Jon Teske
[snip (old stuff)]
Luis and Clarke (I think that is the spelling) make carbon fiber cello, and
I am pretty sure a search on the name will get you to their web site. Also
and outfit named Quintus makes the entire violin family in carbon fiber. I
think they are a defense subcontractor that makes carbon fiber subassemblys
for aircraft and I guess someone in the family is a fiddler. I first read
about them in a bluegrass magazine where a couple of fiddlers who played on
horseback at rodeos liked their fiddles for rainy evenings in the arena. I
have read a lot of reports on their violins and some people seem to like
them a lot and others not at all. I would guess that a search on Quintus and
violin will get you to their web site.
Joseph Curtin, who is violin maker of some renown has a web page about his
experiments with a viola (he plays viola) he made to try carbon fiber tops
on. He makes a five layer sandwich with veneer, carbon fiber, foam, carbon
fiber and veneer vacuum formed over a mold. The mold is probably a plaster
form. The URL is:
http://www.msen.com;~violins/innovation/project_evia.htm
Curtin had an article in The Strad about this. The web site may be that
article but I think that it is based on a different article in American
Lutherie. There was a great article by Curtin about his teacher and how he
became a luthier in a recent (past few years) Strad.
In building high tech RC aircraft I have used or at least learned most of
the techniques used by Curtin in the article. Since I am familiar with this
type of work and I make fiddles I am probably much more interested than the
average violin maker. I also have my own ideas about how to build a curing
oven and I have some vacuum molding equipment in this apartment. The
pre-preg is a problem, since it would take over my refridgerator, and there
is no place to conveniently stash the oven. I guess I need a larger
apartment!
Peter Schug
Pete...@att.net wrote on 7/6/02 11:19 AM:
Sorry folks the URL is:
http://www.msen.com/~violins/innovation/project_evia.htm
And _not_:
>>http://www.msen.com;~violins/innovation/project_evia.htm<<<
However, now that I have revisited the web site I would recommend:
http://www.msen.com/~violins/news.html
Which is a list of articles by or about Curtin, including the other article
about his carbon fiber tops.
Helen Cebis
the holes in a violin that are in the top of a dobro....
Helen
"GoHabsGo" <goha...@mailandnews.com> wrote in message
news:Xns924193B94E36Ego...@130.133.1.4...
Peter Schug
m3ga...@icenet.com.au wrote on 7/6/02 12:12 PM:
> Yes but a guitar is played differently to a violin and I cant see you having
> the holes in a violin that are in the top of a dobro....
>
> Helen
>
Hi Helen,
Do take a look at Tho's web site (no URL handy, but he posted it in the past
day or two) or at Sinister Researches on my web site, which has some
pictures of Tho's experimental (non metal, but dobro like) instruments.
There is no reason that they couldn't be made out of metal or even
ferro-cement, as long as there is something equivalent to a speaker cone for
the bridge to drive.
Hmm... Nobody seems to have made any ferro-cement string instruments. I
wonder why, cement is quite inexpensive and they even make canoes out of it.
No imagination I guess.
Sadly, I must report that there is no room in this apartment for a cement
mixer.
Carl Witthoft
jdt...@comcast.net (J. Teske) held forth the proposition that:
> OTOH violins have been made of such things as steel. Heifetz
> experimented with one, once, for outdoor concerts where weather might
> put a fine violin at risk. I believe the experiment was not
> successful, or at least not satisfactory for a violinist of his
> calibre. I have never even seen such a violin.
And more recently, carbon fiber. There are several mfrs you can track down
online. Rumor has it the instruments aren't bad for the price but don't come
close to higher quality handmade wood ones.
--
Carl Witthoft c...@theworld.com ca...@aoainc.com http://world.std.com/~cgw
carlwi...@alum.colby.edu
Donna
instrument making. Zion Guitars, Lynn Dudenbostel, steel guitar
makers, mandolin and inlayed guitars. I agree that not all of the
parts are made with the CNC but many are, and especially the
prototyping for new pieces. Our probe is often used to help in the
prototyping process.
The art of hand carving and design is still crucial to the final
product.
Donna
sa...@rjbiz.com
Firstly I have made quite a number of violins using my own program.
While writing, I modified my bouts to make for easy assembly.
My modified bouts are produced from out of 19 to 25mm.
By working from bottom height, bout thickness can be adjusted easily.
Programing, and fine tuning are not the only obstacles,
I found the next, were weight constraints.
Just remember, you will never get a finished product from your CNC.
But, then, who wants to spend all their time turning 85% of the timber into sawdust?
My machine takes about 30 minutes per side to complete, I also mark Fholes with a laxer, delivered to me ready for finishing.
With a CNC, shapes, are no longer an issue. I Have designed and cut Electric Guitar, replica, and original, do an acoustic Ukulele based on 1952 Fender.
CNC is the way to go.
Just takes a long time to get your programs right.
Cheers