folding fiddle?
John Lawrence
security stuff.... but it is a shame to have to part with fiddling for time
on the road....so I resurrect an old idea, and wonder if there is any new
thinking on it... why doesnt someone craft a violin just for practice
purposes, made out of a light, tough alloy, which folds either vertically or
horizontally at the point where fingerboard meets belly... such a joint
could be crafted so as to tolerate the string stresses when tuned up, and
the strings could be loosened for travelling.... the purpose wd be just to
be able to practice, so there would be no need for much sound.... I once saw
a stick fiddle in a shop in Philly that seemed to achieve part of this
dream!
Tim Jones
>thinking on it... why doesnt someone craft a violin just for practice
>purposes, made out of a light, tough alloy, which folds either vertically
or
>horizontally at the point where fingerboard meets belly...
Being new to the group [1], I've been gradually reading back through old
posts and I noticed that someone referred to a folding cello a while ago (in
one of the threads about electric cellos I think). Don't know who it was
or whether they're one of the regulars here though, so maybe I'm not being a
lot of help.
[2] Well sort of. I posted a little bit here a few years ago.
Tim.
PeteSchug
Lawrence at jesla...@worldnet.att.net wrote on 8/15/02 5:08 PM:
Check out the following URL for a fiddle you can take anywhere.
http://www.wiplstix.com/buzz.html
I am tempted to get one for work, but I'd probably get myself fired!
It's looks rugged enough to be a practical play anywhere instrument and if
worst came to worst could be replaced without the trauma involved in trying
you replace your good fiddle.
Pete
--
Check out my fiddle making site
http://home.att.net/~PeteSchug/
PeteSchug
t...@surfaid.org wrote on 8/15/02 6:15 PM:
Thinking about it a bit, Harry Wake has plans for a folding cello along with
his plans for a conventional cello. They come bound together. The folding
cello is a long box that can either hold the neck of a conventional cello or
form the soundbox for that neck.
It sounds like a bit of a pain, what with having to set it up each time you
play, but in NYC there is a guy who sometimes plays a very similar looking
instrument on the subways. He literally straps it to one leg and walks
around playing it. He is a pretty good cellist too!
The idea can be applied to a violin sized instrument, but I think it would
be the sort of thing where once you set it up you would tend to leave it
that way.
John Lawrence
> instrument on the subways. He literally straps it to one leg and walks
> around playing it. He is a pretty good cellist too!
thanks Tim & Pete.... I think I know the cellist, if hes the `cajun' cellist
who plays Orange Blossom etc. with great vim and verve... hes a neat guy....
Ive threatened him to pull out my fiddle and play alongside, and havent seen
him since...
anyway I think the wiplstix is probably the best shortterm answer... and
mucho thanks indeed for that! J
Tho X. Bui
PeteSchug wrote:
> John
> Lawrence at jesla...@worldnet.att.net wrote on 8/15/02 5:08 PM:
>
> > Travelling with a fiddle is difficult...especially on planes with all this
> > security stuff.... but it is a shame to have to part with fiddling for time
> > on the road...... why doesnt someone craft a violin just for practice
> > purposes, made out of a light, tough alloy, which folds either vertically...
> >
>
> Check out the following URL for a fiddle you can take anywhere.
> http://www.wiplstix.com/buzz.html
> I am tempted to get one for work, but I'd probably get myself fired!
I travel regularly on my job, and always carry my standard sized fiddle
with me--have never had a serious problem. Once I had to give it to the
stewardess because there was no room in the puddle jumper I was flying
in--that was once in 5 years of regular flying. The compact violin I
built (http://home.earthlink.net/~blahx3/_images/violin-kit.jpg) turns
out to be only marginally smaller because I want it to feel like playing
a real instrument, and it turns out that the most inconvenient thing is
the full size bow. The Wiplstix comes with an 1/8 size bow--I don't
think I'd want to mess up my technique playing one of those.
I think the compact instrument idea is more useful with cellos and
basses. I'm finishing up my experimental one, will show y'all in a few days.
Tho
PeteSchug
bla...@earthlink.net wrote on 8/15/02 11:48 PM:
You are lucky Tho.
On my last trip back from Oklahoma I was asked to step aside for a search
with a wand. My fiddle was on the X-ray conveyor, which was full and some
jerk ran it almost pushing my fiddle off. I stepped forward to get it and
two guys with AR 15's stepped forward, eyeing me. The guy who was searching
me with the wand was kind enough to get the fiddle for me before it fell.
(It was almost over the edge.) The cause of the search? A wet napkin in a
foil wrapper in my pocket from the restaurant I ate in the night before.
I had problems getting my computer back on the way out. I like to board as
early as possible so I can find room in the overheads, but the guy with the
laptops was overloaded and taking his sweet time while the plane filled up.
I think I may drive to Ok. next trip. As is, I worry a lot until I get where
I'm going, now it takes twice as long to check in and it doesn't seem worth
it.
I love flying, but the way they run airlines, even before 9/11 they make
what should be enjoyable into a dismal experience. Air travel sucks.
No thanks. These guys really don't know or care about your stuff or your
trip or anything. I don't blame them for being careful, I just wish they
were careful with my fiddle!
Don't ask about the time I flew back from Ok with two really good bikes and
couldn't get American to insure them!. I finally took TWA, which charged a
reasonable fee and even with an hour later start almost made the American
flight's eta. Now, unfortunately American now owns TWA. There is no justice.
Andy Copeman
This reminds me of a story told at a bluegrass workshop at a folk festival
last year:
The fiddler said the band's banjo player couldn't be there because he was on
tour in the US. he'd had some difficulty getting his luggage together so
he'd taken his banjo apart and put the bits in his suitcase. He was stopped
by the security after his case was Xrayed. They asked him: "Why are you
carrying a land-mine in your suitcase?"
cheers
Andy
John Lawrence
Tho X. Bui <bla...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3D5C77ED...@earthlink.net...
>
The Wiplstix comes with an 1/8 size bow--I don't
> think I'd want to mess up my technique playing one of those.
> Tho
yes that worried me too.. anyone experienced that skills transfer problem?
Thanks for the tip Tho.. and I await results of yr experiment with great
interest... J
Karl Perry
"John Lawrence" <jesla...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:oLU69.12992$Ke2.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Travelling with a fiddle is difficult...especially on planes with all this
> security stuff.... but it is a shame to have to part with fiddling for
time
> on the road...
John,
It's been about two months since I traveled, but before that I traveled at
least once monthly for six months following 9/11. I took my full-sized
violin with me everywhere, and had no problems at all.
There is a thread here about a directive from Congress to the FAA telling
them to take all reasonable steps to accommodate traveling musicians.
I wouldn't worry. Be nice to the security guys, explain if necessary that
you have your violin, and carry it in a suspension case everywhere you go.
You should be fine.
Karl Perry
Charles F. Gaumond
the top probably don't allow vibrating air to escape from the
interior. I assume that the sound radiates primarily from the
vibrating top. Did you consider any acoustical or mechanical
properties, like the modes of the top or the dynamics of the air in
the body, in your design?
I also wondered if you have considered trimming the overall length of
the violin/kit through consideration of the functions of each end?
On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:48:59 GMT, "Tho X. Bui" <bla...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
John in BC
inflated (just the sound box part. Someone should try that with a
violin.
John
John in BC
John in BC
the sound box part!!).
I wonder if anyone has tried that with a violin.
John
Tho X. Bui
without causing Helmholtz resonance at a higher frequency than
normal--two simple plunge cuts with a razor thin Japanese Ryoba hand
saw. In the end I was not happy with the result regarless of what I
tried. The upper two strings sound fine with good projection, but the
bottom is very thin. I even tried using a tuned port and various types
of internal baffle without success.
A brief interesting development was that I installed a low power (.5 W,
based on LM 386-1 chip) audio amplifier with a low-pass inductor
crossover to amplify only the bottom end of the sound spectrum. It was
promising, and lead to my current cello/bass projects. I stopped
pursuing it with the violin when I realized that the weight of the
finished instrument begins to exceed that of a standard fiddle.
The "Buidavarius" was fed to the fireplace last winter, RIP.
Tho
"Charles F. Gaumond" wrote:
>> I like several of the design features on your violin/kit. The slits on
> the top probably don't allow vibrating air to escape from the
> interior. I assume that the sound radiates primarily from the
> vibrating top. Did you consider any acoustical or mechanical
> properties, like the modes of the top or the dynamics of the air in
> the body, in your design?
>
> I also wondered if you have considered trimming the overall length of
> the violin/kit through consideration of the functions of each end?
>
> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:48:59 GMT, "Tho X. Bui" <bla...@earthlink.net>
> >...The compact violin I
> >built (http://home.earthlink.net/~blahx3/_images/violin-kit.jpg) turns
> >out to be only marginally smaller because I want it to feel like playing
> >a real instrument, and it turns out that the most inconvenient thing is
> >the full size bow. ...
Karl Perry
Looks like your "Send" button is stuck.
"John in BC" <jpfa...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:3D5D5808...@telus.net...
Jim Thompson
With a built-in amp, how do you avoid feedback?
Jim
Tho X. Bui <bla...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3D5D6630...@earthlink.net...
PeteSchug
Lawrence at jesla...@worldnet.att.net wrote on 8/16/02 10:06 AM:
On the Odds 'n' Ends page of my web site is a pochette bow that is probably
about 1/8 size. I made it for a pochette that was probably a bit shorter
than a standard violin though I too stuck with the scale length of a
standard violin. The bow is the same size as the instrument for convenience
in carrying. Same concept as the Wiplstick.
I love to play with the bow even today on a conventional fiddle. I do have
to be carefull about not expecting the full length but my teacher did get me
to stick mostly to the middle of a standard bow and that helps.
In my hands this delicate, light little bow is a lot of fun to play with
because I can do things with it that don't work on a normal bow. My hand
outweighs the bow by so much that I can slam into the strings and not bounce
unless I let it and things like that.
Whether you would be able to do those things with a 1/8 bow, I don't know.
It may just be the way this bow handles. Worst case, use a full size bow
except when there is no choice, but I don't think it is a real problem.
Anyway, it is no problem going back and forth.
John in BC
Sorry. I just upgraded to ADSL and I was having trouble with my mail
server settings. Netscape told me the mail was not going through, but
it seems that it was!!
John
John in BC
traveled at
least once monthly for six months following 9/11. I took my full-sized
violin with me everywhere, and had no problems at all. <<
I have had no problems with my electric violin either. I offered to
send it with the delicate baggage but they always said I could take it
with me.
John
Tho X. Bui
The current version has the mechanical bits removed and the speaker
driven by an 18watt amplifier, after an FET preamp stage. If I crank up
the volume, I get a massive amount of feed back. I'm guessing I'm using
about 20% of the capacity of the amplifier. Even if I can push back the
feedback point, I'm running into problem with the shell vibrating and
negatively coloring the tone. I can stiffen the box, but it'd weigh 6.02
x 10^23 tons. Currently, below the volume setting where feedback occurs,
the instrument is still about twice as loud as a standard cello--quite
enough, IMO. If I need more volume, I can always plug the preamp into a
separate amplifier and use it as a "normal" e-cello.
The key to this is having a support structure under the bridge.
Directly underneath the bridge inside the body is a piece of wood that
reduce the interaction between the box and the bridge. The bridge rests
on a flexible plate where the piezo pickup is glued in.
The instrument can be driven by either an 8-cell AA battery pack for
about 1hour, or a 12-VDC transformer brick.
I'll debut it in public in a couple of weeks. My teacher wants me to
accompany one of her young students in a fiddle tune using the "Tommycello."
Tho
Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> With a built-in amp, how do you avoid feedback?
> Jim
>
> Tho X. Bui <bla...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >
John Lawrence
have several fiddles, many of which I could take backpacking (or even to the
antarctic to play to `appreciative'? seals as I once did) but more the issue
of size and noise... admittedly mutes take care of the noise, but going on a
suit and tie expedition via mainstream hotels worldwide is difficult with a
briefcase AND a fiddle... so Im delighted with the efforts of whiplestick
and Tho X Bui who are trying to minimalize the package without losing too
much of its oooooooooopmph....J
Karl Perry <kap...@NOSPAMcablespeed.com> wrote in message
news:AD8837D4A82B46EC.90CBA19D...@lp.airnews.net...
engelbrecht-wiggans richard
> John Lawrence wrote in message ...
>
> Being new to the group [1], I've been gradually reading back through old
> posts and I noticed that someone referred to a folding cello a while ago (in
> one of the threads about electric cellos I think). Don't know who it was
> or whether they're one of the regulars here though, so maybe I'm not being a
> lot of help.
As mentioned before, my homemade travel cello is basically an extended
fingerboard with bridge and pins at the fat end. It, its bow, and a
folding music stand all fit into a "case" made from a 38" long piece
of 4" diameter PVC pipe. It has travelled many thousands of miles
with me as carry-on luggage (and kept me company several times when I
ended up overnighting enroute unexpectedly), but I am 0 for 4 since 9/11
(it looks too much like a baseball bat with spikes at the end according
to one security guard, and, of course, the music stand has far too many
pointy ends.)
This is slightly too big for carry-on, and I have had to negotiate a
couple of times. So I had been working on making a more compact design,
and even made a prototype that was only about 32" long, but now that
carry-on doesn't seem to be an option for the time being, I'm focusing
on making it more playable and more amenable to amplification) even if
that means a slight increase in size. One of the designs currently on
the drawing board could disassemble into two 27" long pieces (no sense
in going much shorter than the length of the bow), but that means
unstringing it. It would take some time to restring it, and then more
time for it to settle to pitch, so the only benifit I see to this
foldability is if I were flying to someplace for a relative long stay,
was desperate to have a cello along, had a lot of luggage, and wanted
the cello to fit inside one of my suitcases so that it didn't count
against the limit on the number of checked pieces.
Richard E+17
Richard Engelbrecht-Wiggans, U of Illinois, Champaign, Illinois
email: epl...@uiuc.edu; (217) 333-1088
Tho X. Bui
Here is the latest version: http://home.earthlink.net/~blahx3/_images/celloexperiment02.jpg
The amp is based on an 18-watt mono chip, powered by 12 volts. It can
be AA batteries powered for an hour or two, or use a 12VDC wall brick.
The pickups are piezos, one attached to a "false" beam beneath the
bridge to pickup mostly fundamentals, and one attached to the bridge
directly for upper harmonics. The pickups are fed into an FET preamp,
and there is only one control: volume (the potentiometer on the side of
the instrument). I suppose I could put a tone circuit on the thing, but
it sounds fine as is--once I perfected the pickup placement config.
They're glued on with PU glue.
The body has an 10" ducted port to emphasize the low frequencies and is
made from plywood. It's about twice as loud as a standard cello, and
will drown a banjo before feedback occurs. When I need more volume, I
would bypass the built in amp and plug the preamp output directly into
an external bass amp and turn it to eleven. Unlike some electric cello,
the pizz and arco are equally balanced, thanks to the bridge/beam
config. Another advantage to the pickup config: very little string
noise even at high volume. I found that if you only place the pickup(s)
on the brige, every little bit of string noise will be amplified as well
as the note.
It was a big hit at orchestra rehearsal this week, and I'll be playing
it as accompaniment for a kid's recital this weekend :-)
The next project is a bass for a friend who plays in a bluegrass band.
It is about 50% done. It has a curved body shape as inspired by the
standard 2xbass, but it uses 34" fretless scale length with bass-guitar
strings. Unlike this cello, I have to make it look nice per my friend's
request :-)
Drop me a line if you want to tackle a project like this, I'd be glad to
give advice.
Tho
p.s.: the power amp actually comes in pretty handy, I've used it as both
a practice amp for my bass guitar and violin, as well as amp for my
laptop. I think I'll attach a portable CD player to it and use it as an
extra stereo for the house.
Jim Thompson
debut".
18 watts? That's quite a wallop. I'm curious to know what chip you used?
And being twice as loud could bring some real cost savings -- one could
staff an orchestra with only half as many cellists!
I'm kidding of course...
While not nearly as innovative, I've something to share with you. A guitar
project I finshed earlier this summer. It's distinction is in the
materials -- mostly scrap. But it plays better than expected and was a lot
of fun -- http://home1.gte.net/res18ovm/index.htm.
I've been following your designs (that means lurking in the shadows) for a
while and have considered building something along those lines -- hope you
would not be offended. If I recall, one of your fiddles used a passive cone
but this cello uses a real speaker -- is that right?
And pardon, but what is PU glue??
jim
Tho X. Bui <bla...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3D65CFF9...@earthlink.net...
rmarkus
please post the circuit or point me to information about it?
Thanks!
Tho X. Bui
chip is Hitachi HA13118 IC, circuit is straight from the datasheet.
Your link doesn't have anything but "good morning" but I'm glad to see
other people are trying different ideas. The classical player in me have
strong attachments to spruce and maple, but we shouldn't let our
creativity stop there. If I can scrounge together enough decent
players, I'd like to get a quartet together to play these goofy things
in a concert.
The speaker used in this cello is a 4 ohm full range 6x9 automotive
speaker--just a cheapo Radio Schlock model--about 15$.
PU is my short for Polyurethane. I have Gorilla brand and Elmers. It's
a pretty permanent attachement--but the piezo is only 1.50 (from a
buzzer), so I don't really have too much concern there.
Tho
Jim Thompson wrote:
> ... 18 watts? That's quite a wallop. I'm curious to know what chip you used?
>
> While not nearly as innovative, I've something to share with you. A guitar
> project I finshed earlier this summer. It's distinction is in the
> materials -- mostly scrap. But it plays better than expected and was a lot
> of fun -- http://home1.gte.net/res18ovm/index.htm.
> ...
> I've been following your designs (that means lurking in the shadows) for a
> while and have considered building something along those lines -- hope you
> would not be offended. If I recall, one of your fiddles used a passive cone
> but this cello uses a real speaker -- is that right?
> ....
> And pardon, but what is PU glue??
>
> Tho X. Bui <bla...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > Here is the latest version:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~blahx3/_images/celloexperiment02.jpg
> > The amp is based on an 18-watt mono chip....
Jim Thompson
that what you used or did you scrounge the parts?
Try the link again, I think we got Microsofted. I took and made the HTML as
simple as could be ignoring the Frontpage junk.
The pictures from the Highland Games shows a fiddle built from a kit last
year. This was its "concert debut".
Never used PU glues, but duct tape is my favorite. Built a kit radio about 8
years ago that did not have an internal speaker. Found one that fit, drilled
a pattern of holes in the case and duct-taped the speaker to the inside of
the chasis. It's still there!
Piezo from a buzzer? That sounds almost subversive. In your original
description, I assumed the piezo pickups were ready-made. Those things are
expensive!
jim
Tho X. Bui <bla...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3D66501C...@earthlink.net...
PeteSchug
Pete
in article 3D65CFF9...@earthlink.net, Tho X. Bui at
bla...@earthlink.net wrote on 8/23/02 1:55 AM:
Tho X. Bui
components and make it work. There are plenty other chips that you can
do with, e.g., using two LM384 on a bridge config probably would be
fine. A quick search through www.digikey.com will lead to the right chip.
Making piezo pickup from buzzer is a common poor man's practice, http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/piezo-pickups.txt.
The preamp is from an article in a recent Practical Electronics
magazine, but it is very similar to the one that www.till.com designed.
The concept of built in amp is, of course, and old one--you can pick up
a cheapo guitar toy with one of these. I just push it to the next level
with some undergraduate-level engineering...The bass will have
graduate-level woodworking :-)
About the only thing that is original with my design is the beam/bridge
configuration--but I wouldn't be surprise if someone shows me something
similar that was made in the 400 B.C.
:-)
Tho
Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> Right, I find the amp in qkits.com and other places as a 20dollar kit. Is
> that what you used or did you scrounge the parts?
> Piezo from a buzzer? That sounds almost subversive. In your original
> description, I assumed the piezo pickups were ready-made. Those things are
> expensive!
>
> Tho X. Bui <bla...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > I am probably using less than 5 of that 18 watt, but that's fine. The
> > chip is Hitachi HA13118 IC, circuit is straight from the datasheet.
> >...
> > PU is my short for Polyurethane. I have Gorilla brand and Elmers. It's
> > a pretty permanent attachement--but the piezo is only 1.50 (from a
> > buzzer), so I don't really have too much concern there.
> >
Tim Escobedo
Jim,
Your guitar looks remarkably like some of the ultra low end Paracho
Mexico guitars sold all over Mexico. Even the neck heel construction
is similar. I had one that was my favorite for about ten years. It had
poplar plywood top and back, and sides/neck made from what could have
been framing lumber. I usually had nylon strings on it, but it came
with steel strings and sounded remarkable with them. Late in it's
life, I decided to throw caution to the wind and string it up with
steel strings. After six months or so, it unfortunately began to
collapse. It's still intact, but would need a neck reset to be
playable again, and a radical one as it has a Spanish style heel block
construction.
Jim Thompson
Perhaps form follows function? I started to carve a normal looking heel but
decided against it to let the natural 2by4ness shine through. I just might
retrofit a piezo pickup into it. And the next one might be designed around a
speaker cone. Or, why not a soundpost and bass bar?
I do plan to make another, and figured I'd use up all my mistakes on this
one.
jim
Tim Escobedo <tpe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3819137c.02082...@posting.google.com...