the fraud that is Jeff Berlin?
Mikewyz
the following is a letter I sent to Bass Player magazine lately. it covers
many points I'd like to raise about Jeff Berlin and I feel it's worth
discussion in a forum such as this. I look forward to responses.
-----------------------
Dear Editor,
My 7+ year subscription to Bass Player is hanging by a thread. Your Jeff
Berlin interview was pretty disgraceful, considering that you teased us with
the question "Motormouth of Musical Genius?" on the cover. The story inside
was nothing more than a puff piece that made this controversial bassist look
like the next Mingus.
While I would agree that Berlin is amusing to read, I do feel the value of
his musical ability is quite arguable. No doubt he is technically gifted and
quite outspoken, and even the star of a terribly funny instructional video.
However, as one who has read nearly every article he has written for Bass
Player and Guitar Player many years ago, I find that he has very little to say.
Over and over Berlin says the same things and while they are valuable and
things I agree with (get a teacher, learn to read, transcribe Sonny Stitt, etc)
he's not saying much.
Beyond that are his questionable musical qualifications. Berlin LOVES to
name-drop about all the folks he has jammed with. However, a look at his
discography shows just how few of those people want to _continue_ working with
Berlin. You may notice, in the Feb. 98 issue that has Berlin's discography, it
is much shorter than Christian McBride's, and he has been in the biz for MUCH
less time than Berlin. Beyond that, how easy is it to find some of Berlin's
work in a music store (and not a "out-of-print" only store)? I would even
venture to say that Berlin is the least recorded member of your Advisory Board.
No, this isn't the best qualification for taking one's advice, but it makes
one ask Why this is.
While Jeff has been gone from the LA music scene for a while, there are
stories that remain about him. The jist of such stories is that he does NOT
listen, he just solos and plays way too many notes. This is said to be the
reason why Frank Zappa, John McLaughlin, Robert Fripp, and Eddie Van Halen
never recorded with him and why Bill Bruford and Allan Holdsworth are Former
bandmates. I think Berlin made a very telling remark in his interview. He
talks about how he admires Sting and Paul McCartney. While most musicians
would be proud to write songs as good as they have, Berlin says, "I would love
to be able to put down eight bars of bass solo on any one of their songs."
On top of this, his writing skills are suspect. His compositions are little
more than faceless pop-jazz and forced attempts to "rock out" by turning up the
drums. On top of this, his use of musical terminology (what "tonalities" did
the Beatles introduce to pop?) is highly uninformed. And I'm not even going to
get into his laughable singing on the Bruford album.
I think it's high time this question was asked about Jeff Berlin: Why don't
people want to play with him? Why does he make his living educating and
writing columns? Why is it that people want to play and record with Victor
Wooten, Christian McBride, Marcus Miller, etc., but not Jeff? Why were his
didn't-sell-so-great solo albums out of print for so long? "Motormouth or
musical genius?" indeed!
yours,
Mike Wyzard
Dave
Mikewyz wrote:
First, let me say that it is assinine to connect the subscription of a
magazine such as Bass Player to a particular column or interview. We're
not talking about the propagation of Nazi policies here, we're talking
in the worst case scenario about a guy whose qualifications you're
questioning.
From reading previous articles about Jeff Berlin, it's rather obvious
the guy has an ego. The guy also has talent. What's very funny about
this whole article you've written is that much of what you've said about
Jeff Berlin is also true of another "great:" Jaco. For the most part,
Jaco played whatever the hell he wanted, and few could work with him.
I consider Jeff Berlin to be a great teacher. Sometimes his articles
only say one thing, and the rest of the article will try to further
demonstrate or explain that point. There's nothing wrong with that. My
best college professor did the same thing. When I left the class, I felt
like I really understood his point and could have an intellegent
conversation about what I just learned. I feel the same way after
reading one of Jeff's articles.
Jeff may or may not have problems working with others; I really don't
know. However, there is a reason why he's called to sub for bassists in
bands like TOP and Yes. I find it hard to question the qualifications of
such a person. Even on the albums he's been on, he plays with great
people. He probably won't be remembered as well as many other of the
great bassists, but that doesn't make him any less of a teacher, person,
or bassist.
Jeff Berlin's solo albums, except for the recent release, are out of
print. Please note that it's hard to sell albums that are out of print,
especially when masters are destroyed (Pump It).
Your reference to Holdsworth and Bruford as former bandmates, the
bandmates of 20 years, is ridiculous. Please tell me that Frank Zappa,
John McLaughlin, Robert Fripp, Eddie Van Halen, Sting, McCartney, and
even post-IOU Bruford and Holdsworth have played with the same lineups
over their career. If they haven't, what's your point?
As far as his writing skills go, I think they're rather good. He's a
bassist for God's sake. It's not easy writing songs with extended chords
on the bass. His concept of melody is excellent. His songs aren't going
to be remembered outside musician circles because many are instrument
specific, which is true of many other bassists. You might be surprised
by how many bassists have never even heard of Teen Town, which is
practically a bass anthem.
If Jeff Berlin wants to educate people for a living that's fine with me.
IMO, he's a great educator and has the chops to back it up. Your trying
to make the connection that he has to do that because he can't get any
other work. If he sucked as a teacher that conclusion could be valid but
that's certainly not the case.
8^) Dave
Charles LaBonte
> You might be surprised
> by how many bassists have never even heard of Teen Town, which is
> practically a bass anthem.
Eh, Teen Town? I can't say that I remember this one, care to educate?
Thanks
CHUCK
Fishiesue
Amen...the guy seems like a jag off to me...
Jeff Lynch
1. The fact that you've subscribed to BP and have regularly read Jeff's
column indicates that he's doing his job ... he's writing intriguing
material and selling magazines.
2. Why does someone need to be a great player to write for a music
magazine? Frankly, I'd rather first have quality writing in a
publication, rather than a bunch of folks you can play their asses off,
but can't complete a sentence ... sure there's value to a players
perspective, but there's no real need for the writer to be a *player*.
How many rambling, incoherent interviews have you seen with true musical
geniuses? As much as I love Hendrix, he would've made a shitty music
journalist ...
3. But, imho, it was a big mistake to put Jeff B., a regular
contributor, on the cover of the publication ... whether justified or
not, it came across as self-serving and *appeared* improper ...
4. plus, I agree, the article was pretty lame ... and the typos
inexcusable ... which made it seem even more self-serving ...
5. finally, i don't believe j ber has ever positioned himself as a
"musical genius" ... besides, if he did, who cares?
Back to listening to the spice girls ...
________________________
http://www.lynchfilms.com
tv spots | corporate media
Dave
Charles LaBonte wrote:
> > You might be surprised
> > by how many bassists have never even heard of Teen Town, which is
> > practically a bass anthem.
>
> Eh, Teen Town? I can't say that I remember this one, care to educate?
It's essentially a bass solo off of Weather Report's "Heavy Weather"
album. There wasn't much out there comparable to that song at the time
it came out (1977?). It's one of those standards that most jazz oriented
bassists will at least attempt to play.Thanks for proving my point.
8^) Dave
>
>
> Thanks
>
> CHUCK
Pat Lyman
While I don't absolutely disagree with the points made, I believe
"fraud" is a little strong, considering the relative waste of low
frequencies (IMO, of course) that have previously appeared on the cover
of BP.
I like Jeff's muscular playing. Furthermore, I agree with his
assessment of rock schools, and the state of much of the musical
education in existence today.
I agree that on occasion he plays too many notes (again, IMO), and may
exude attitude that keeps him from being rehired. People of strong
opinion aren't always perfect diplomats when sharing those opinions.
In my view of the grand scheme of things, he's the not as much an
asshole as many others far more famous. His personality may have even
been an attribute had he chose the path of being a rock star.
Patricia Roe
I agree with Jeff's defenders. Although I don't always like what JB has to
say or even play, I found his instructional book about chord tone playing
invaluable when I first started to play bass. I also enjoyed "Pump It!",
even the singing <g>.
I attended one of his bass clinics when he came around my area (mid-MO) and
found him articulate and interesting. It *was* funny that he offered to let
anyone try out his new bass, but backed off when a friend of mine asked to
try it. (the friend has an air of confidence about him and can back it up
both playing and theory-wise--it was obvious that Jeff was intimidated<g>)
So anyway, Jeff's a fellow musician and a bass player at that...let's give
him credit for succeeding as a full-time musician/teacher/writer--not many
get the privilege or have the talent. I say live and let live.
And to the idea that nobody wants to play with Jeff--well, I'll play with
him anyday! (But I'll practice up a storm first...)
--
Pat Roe
bassist/CNA
Jeff Lynch <jrl...@lynchfilms.com> wrote in article
<34A538C2...@lynchfilms.com>...
> 1. he's writing intriguing
> material and selling magazines.
>
> 2. a players
> perspective, but there's no real need for the writer to be a *player*.
>
but it helps
Patricia Roe
Jaco with Weather Report--bass classic along with Birdland, both on the
"Heavy Weather" album.
--
Pat Roe
bassist/CNA
Matthew Ivaliotes
"Patricia Roe" <pr...@sockets.net> writes:
>And to the idea that nobody wants to play with Jeff--well, I'll play with
>him anyday! (But I'll practice up a storm first...)
I think the original poster's intent was not to say that Berlin was a
worthless human being, but rather that it is ludicrous to even suggest
that he's some sort of musical genius. OK, he wrote a good instructional
work or two. Cool. Let's leave it at that. But the fact that many great
musicians seem to only want to play with him *once* and then get tired of
him speaks to his professionalism and sense of musical balance. And I
happen to think that he is indeed a proficient musician, no more and no
less.
Matt I.
Theslammer
> listen, he just solos and plays way too many notes. This is said to
> be the
> reason why Frank Zappa, John McLaughlin, Robert Fripp, and Eddie Van
> Halen
> never recorded with him and why Bill Bruford and Allan Holdsworth are
> Former
> bandmates.
....and you have played with these folks how many times?
The Amazing Slammer
I've Been Waiting for the Sun to Come Up......I've been waiting for the showers
to stop
Mikewyz
back for more
val...@ix.netcom.com figured:
<<First, let me say that it is assinine to connect the subscription of a
magazine such as Bass Player to a particular column or interview. We're not
talking about the propagation of Nazi policies here, we're talking in the worst
case scenario about a guy whose qualifications you're questioning.>>
Just because a rag doesn't promote Nazi policies doesn't mean it's worth
keeping the subscription. Maybe I'm not sure if I want to read something that
says JB is a genius, as that tells me their standards may not be as high as I'd
like (or that they are _asinine_).
THEN he said:
<<What's very funny about this whole article you've written is that much of
what you've said about Jeff Berlin is also true of another "great:" Jaco. For
the most part, Jaco played whatever the hell he wanted, and few could work with
him.>>
I'd agree that Jaco is grossly overrated and worshipped by bassists. However,
Jaco was more of a musician who happened to play bass than a skilled bass
technician who also wrote tunes. I've heard more non-bassists praise Jaco than
Berlin, but maybe that's me. I've also heard Jaco's tunes called more than
Jeff's....
next, he said:
<<Your reference to Holdsworth and Bruford as former bandmates, the bandmates
of 20 years, is ridiculous. Please tell me that Frank Zappa, John McLaughlin,
Robert Fripp, Eddie Van Halen, Sting, McCartney, and even post-IOU Bruford and
Holdsworth have played with the same lineups over their career. If they
haven't, what's your point?>>
I guess I wasn't clear enough for you. Of all the people I mentioned JB
playing with, Bruford is the only one who's expressed ANY interest in working
with him again. Most of those people never wanted to even _record_ with JB.
All these people tried him out but didn't like him, why is that? Inquiring
minds want to know.
last, he said:
<<Your trying to make the connection that he has to do that because he can't
get any other work. If he sucked as a teacher that conclusion could be valid
but that's certainly not the case.>>
no, I'm saying something more like, "This guy speaks as a musican, how do we
know he's a musician?" If Mingus wrote somehting, we would know it was a
musican talking.
jrl...@lynchfilms.com spaketh:
<<1. The fact that you've subscribed to BP and have regularly read Jeff's
column indicates that he's doing his job ... he's writing intriguing material
and selling magazines.>>
Actually, I subscribed to BP long before he was a columnist, and he is not the
chief reason I read the mag. But yes, I agree he's an intriguing writer. And
I agree that his lack of steady gigs does not mean he doesn't deserve the
column. However, I think the issue of his professional history should be
addressed in some way besides him repeatedly saying, "I jammed w/ Van Halen, I
worked w/ Zappa, etc."
pr...@sockets.net said:
<<So anyway, Jeff's a fellow musician and a bass player at that...let's give
him credit for succeeding as a full-time musician/teacher/writer--not many get
the privilege or have the talent. I say live and let live. >>
I do give him that credit. But I think I can give him that while criticizing
him at the same time, as well.
ply...@as.net grooved:
<<While I don't absolutely disagree with the points made, I believe "fraud" is
a little strong, considering the relative waste of low frequencies (IMO, of
course) that have previously appeared on the cover of BP.>>
Point well put and agreed with. The "What's Billy Sheehan Doing in the Studio"
cover was a particular waste of ink. My gripe was more in the use of the word
"genius" (a word so overused today, esp. in music, it has almost become
meaningless) on the cover, tho that wasn't Jeff's fault.
fun fun fun
/\/\
\/\/
Steve Manes
Matthew Ivaliotes <lo...@staff.uiuc.edu> wrote:
: I think the original poster's intent was not to say that Berlin was a
: worthless human being, but rather that it is ludicrous to even suggest
: that he's some sort of musical genius. OK, he wrote a good instructional
: work or two. Cool. Let's leave it at that. But the fact that many great
: musicians seem to only want to play with him *once* and then get tired of
: him speaks to his professionalism and sense of musical balance.
I'm no sycophant of Jeff Berlin's playing. I'm not much of a fan of
bass pyrotechnics to begin with. But there's no denying his talent or
his professionalism. His only sin, if that's the right word, is that
he's not comfortable in the traditional role of bass player as a sideman.
More power to him. "Musical balance" is an interesting and somewhat
loaded phrase. There are scores of lesser bass players, mainly
studio hired guns, who specialize at being chameleons (and adept
politicians) for featured artists. Let's not forget that leaders also have
egos. It's why a lot of great players, from Charlie Parker to Gene Krupa
to Miles Davis, always had a problem working in a supporting role. They
were so strong and stylized that they proved to be too much spice for the
stew. A lot of musicians refused to work with Jaco for the same reason.
-----------------------[ http://www.magpie.com ]-----------=o&>o-----
Steve Manes | The Bottom Line | for info, email
smanes [at] magpie.com | NYC Motorcyclists | ser...@magpie.com with
94 Harley-Davidson FLHR | Triumph MC Owners | the message, "lists"
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Dave
Mikewyz wrote:
> Just because a rag doesn't promote Nazi policies doesn't mean it's
> worth
> keeping the subscription. Maybe I'm not sure if I want to read
> something that
> says JB is a genius, as that tells me their standards may not be as
> high as I'd
> like (or that they are _asinine_).
First, I find no objection to Jeff Berlin being on the cover. He just
released an bass related album, which seems to the most common time for
the staff at BP to do an interview. I don't think they showed any
favoritism either, since it took years for him to get on the cover. I
always thought he was treated unfairly. When I bought my first issue of
Guitar Player Ace Frehley was on the cover. He was never on the cover of
GP or BP until last month. Give the man his due. Gene Simmons has been
on the covers of these magazines more often for God's sake!Whether Jeff
Berlin is or isn't a genius is like asking the ever annoying question
"who's the best bassist?" It's totally subjective. Personally, I think
the guy is. Why? He has an amazing ability to create melodies which on
the surface appear to be outside of the chord changes. His selection of
notes and scales resembles a horn player more than a bass player. And he
does this while keeping the song consonant, and executes it great feel
and flawless execution.
BTW, I've saw Jeff Berlin live back in 1983. His playing left me
flabbergasted, especially the two part classical piece he pulled of. His
playing was heads and tails above any of his peers that I had seen
(Jaco, Stanley Clark, Anthony Jackson, etc.). I haven't seen anything
that impressive until I saw Victor Wooten earlier this year.
> THEN he said:
> <<What's very funny about this whole article you've written is that
> much of
> what you've said about Jeff Berlin is also true of another "great:"
> Jaco. For
> the most part, Jaco played whatever the hell he wanted, and few could
> work with
> him.>>
>
> I'd agree that Jaco is grossly overrated and worshipped by bassists.
> However,
> Jaco was more of a musician who happened to play bass than a skilled
> bass
> technician who also wrote tunes. I've heard more non-bassists praise
> Jaco than
> Berlin, but maybe that's me. I've also heard Jaco's tunes called more
> than
> Jeff's....
This I believe had more to do with timing. Jeff Berlin came after Jaco
and Stanley Clark, the two big cheeses of the day.
> next, he said:
> <<Your reference to Holdsworth and Bruford as former bandmates, the
> bandmates
> of 20 years, is ridiculous. Please tell me that Frank Zappa, John
> McLaughlin,
> Robert Fripp, Eddie Van Halen, Sting, McCartney, and even post-IOU
> Bruford and
> Holdsworth have played with the same lineups over their career. If
> they
> haven't, what's your point?>>
>
> I guess I wasn't clear enough for you. Of all the people I mentioned
> JB
> playing with, Bruford is the only one who's expressed ANY interest in
> working
> with him again. Most of those people never wanted to even _record_
> with JB.
> All these people tried him out but didn't like him, why is that?
> Inquiring
> minds want to know.
Of course the above is speculation, unless you have some inside info.
Maybe his ego had something to do with it. BTW, Jeff Berlin is a
fantastic groove player and knows how to basic function of his
instrument. His playing is slightly busy but not overly so. My best
friend had seen him several times when he went to Berklee. On a couple
of occassions he said that the audience actually got pissed off at Jeff
because he was hired as a supporting bassist and did just that. He
didn't want to show up the artist that hired him.
> last, he said:
> <<Your trying to make the connection that he has to do that because he
> can't
> get any other work. If he sucked as a teacher that conclusion could be
> valid
> but that's certainly not the case.>>
>
> no, I'm saying something more like, "This guy speaks as a musican, how
> do we
> know he's a musician?" If Mingus wrote somehting, we would know it
> was a
> musican talking.
I have read that a lot of the jazz greats were either out of thier mind
or very difficult to deal with. I have read that Coltrane, Mingus, Miles
Davis, and the like were very difficult to deal with. Do you consider
these people musicians, and do you listen to what they have to say. I
loved the article that I read with Miles Davis where the put the boxed
bold text in the center of the article, which said "F**k 'em, I play
what I want." Now there's a quote I think I'll tell every bandleader I
work with.If Jeff Berlin isn't a musician, can you imagine what we must
be?
8^) Dave
Mikewyz
> I loved the article that I read with Miles Davis where the put the > boxed
bold text in the center of the article, which said "F**k
> 'em, I play what I want." Now there's a quote I think I'll tell
> every bandleader I work with.If Jeff Berlin isn't a musician, can > you
imagine what we must be?
Those who understand Miles Davis' music and have a thorough knowledge of Miles
himself know that in the above quote he was referring to the _audience_. Miles
played for a while as a _bandmember_ in Billy Eckstine's band and then later
under Charlie Parker. Miles didn't say "F**k em!" then, because he was always
a MUSICIAN first and always knew his place in the band. I do happen to know
that many people don't hire Jeff Berlin because he overplays (and please don't
quote "Amadeus" if you wish to be taken seriously). I know Dave Stewart
(keyboardist in Bruford) couldn't stand the endless stream of notes and Robert
Fripp called him "too busy."
>I have read that a lot of the jazz greats were either out of thier
> mind or very difficult to deal with. I have read that Coltrane,
> Mingus, Miles Davis, and the like were very difficult to deal
> with. Do you consider these people musicians, and do you listen
> to what they have to say.
yes, they were difficult to deal with. yes, I do consider them musicians, but
NOT because they were difficult to deal with. These people were musicians
because they made beautiful and real music which not only has stood the test of
time but continues to gain the respect and appreciation of more musicians every
year. and yes, I listen to what they have to say, because they are musicians
and I think I can learn something from them.
At the heart of the matter, Berlin's music doesn't speak to me. It's
essentially boring almost-jazz that he constructs as a background noise to his
solos. I wouldn't call his playing "typewriter music" but it's not far from
it, to my ears. I can only take it in small doses. And I feel my view is
shared by many, based on JBs professional record. Lots of people came up w/
Stanley and Jaco, but they get gigs while being very talented and skilled.
/\/\
\/\/
JohnT IV
So much of this thread is bashing Jeff Berlin, which is too bad. If you read
that article in bass player, Jeff admits that his social skills were certainly
lacking back in his younger days and that he has actually been working on being
a better person etc...
Bottom line... He busted his nuts to put together a disc of music to share.
Regardless of the PR past and present, I think he deserves some credit for this
fact alone. I think his Rowdy Roddy Piper attitude toward bass playing and
competition with peers has subsided, so why not give the guy a break. Great
players are great as a funstion of their personality, Jeff's may be a little
sterile and aggressive but man - the dude has some chops and he HAS written
some cool tunes - that's all. At least he's not selling insurance or flipping
burgers while playing bass on the side. I suggest you all go listen to
Champion or Road Games by Alan Holdsworth - they show Jeff's true skill as
composer and supporting member. And hey, if you don't like his playing, you
don't have to listen - it's that simple. I personally think that Victor Wooten
is a great player but WAY over-hyped...he must be a nice guy. He tries to do
classical but SLOPPY. Stuart Hamm plays cleaner, Jeff Berlin plays cleaner and
Gary Willis - well, Gary has the belt - even without slapping and triplet
thumbing trickery. To each his own....
IMHO
John T
Jeffrey Mondick
Jeff Lynch <jrl...@lynchfilms.com> wrote:
>
>3. But, imho, it was a big mistake to put Jeff B., a regular
>contributor, on the cover of the publication ... whether justified or
>not, it came across as self-serving and *appeared* improper ...
>
I bet no one bitches because Vic Wooten's on this month's cover .. a
great bassist, a fantastic musican, one of my main influences .... AND
a regular contributor.
Jeff Mondick jj...@pipeline.com
Bassist, Stickist, EURB for Spelling Tuesday
System admin, etc in my spare time
http://www.pipeline.com/~jjmon/spellingtues.htm
Bill Bolton
mik...@aol.com (Mikewyz) wrote:
> At the heart of the matter, Berlin's music doesn't speak to me.
That's hardly a justification for the sort of vitriolic attack you
have launched against him and Bass Player.
Cheers,
Bill
Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia
Bill Bolton
Steve Manes <sma...@NOSPAM.EVERmagpie.com> wrote:
> were so strong and stylized that they proved to be too much spice for the
> stew.
Chuck Rainey tells a wonderful story about doing some electric bass
session work for Ray Brown. Ray had fired his previous bass player
because he didn't like his style.... that bass player was James
Jamerson.
Musical taste is a peculiar thing at the best of times!
Eskimo
Mikewyz wrote:
> On top of this, his writing skills are suspect. His compositions are little
> more than faceless pop-jazz and forced attempts to "rock out" by turning up the
> drums. On top of this, his use of musical terminology (what "tonalities" did
> the Beatles introduce to pop?) is highly uninformed. And I'm not even going to
> get into his laughable singing on the Bruford album.
>
> I think it's high time this question was asked about Jeff Berlin: Why don't
> people want to play with him? Why does he make his living educating and
> writing columns? Why is it that people want to play and record with Victor
> Wooten, Christian McBride, Marcus Miller, etc., but not Jeff? Why were his
> didn't-sell-so-great solo albums out of print for so long? "Motormouth or
> musical genius?" indeed!
>
> yours,
> Mike Wyzard
'Sounds like your jealous of Jeff.
C. Norton
Bill Hatcher
Mikewyz wrote:
> the following is a letter I sent to Bass Player magazine lately. it covers
> many points I'd like to raise about Jeff Berlin and I feel it's worth
> discussion in a forum such as this. I look forward to responses.
Back in the 70s right when the Jaco craze took over almost every bass player's
life, Jeff Berlin came to Atlanta to play with a local group for a few weeks. He
was a total unknown. We are sitting at a table in the club just talking shop and
he tells me he has NEVER even heard of Jaco. He goes back on stage and continues
to play the Jaco style and in the middle of one of his solos breaks into "Portrait
of Tracy". He wasn't just kidding me either. He was trying to cover up the fact
that he WAS and still IS a Jaco clone.
Unless he has changed, I found him to be VERY arrogant. This guy will never live
down being in the Jaco shadow.
On the other hand Jaco was a pretty arogant guy but in a more genious kind of
way. He came to Atlanta several times and would just walk in to a club and just
walk straight up on stage and take the bass out of whoever was playing bass on the
gig and start playing like he owned the band,club,song, everything!!!
Regards. Bill
llasher
What are we saying, when we like a musician and he acts like an asshole
it is in a genius sort of way and when we don't he is an asshole in an
asshole sort fo way?
Everyone knows Jeff Berlin is an ASSHOLE, just read any column form BP or
GP before that to see the size of the bug that crawled up his ass, but HE
EVEN ADMITS AS MUCH in the recent BP interview. The guy can play and he
can be a side man-- he isn't all solo after solo.
If some guy decided to try to take my bass out of my hands with out askin
he'd fucking eat it-- Jaco or no Jaco--; if you voluntarily let yourself
be up staged that badly you shouldn't be there. That isn't a cute story
about Jaco's eccentricities it shows he's an asshole too.
Matt Jovanis
>> On the other hand Jaco was a pretty arogant guy but in a more genious
>> kind of way. He came to Atlanta several times and would just walk in
>> to a club and just walk straight up on stage and take the bass out of
>> whoever was playing bass on the gig and start playing like he owned
>> the band,club,song, everything!!!
>What are we saying, when we like a musician and he acts like an asshole
>it is in a genius sort of way and when we don't he is an asshole in an
>asshole sort fo way?
>Everyone knows Jeff Berlin is an ASSHOLE, just read any column form BP or
>GP before that to see the size of the bug that crawled up his ass, but HE
>EVEN ADMITS AS MUCH in the recent BP interview. The guy can play and he
>can be a side man-- he isn't all solo after solo.
>If some guy decided to try to take my bass out of my hands with out askin
>he'd fucking eat it-- Jaco or no Jaco--; if you voluntarily let yourself
>be up staged that badly you shouldn't be there. That isn't a cute story
>about Jaco's eccentricities it shows he's an asshole too.
Yes, I think that Berlin is an asshole, so people don't like him. I
guess Jaco was a "great asshole", and since he was a "great asshole"
first, everyone loves him and hates the "second generation asshole"
Later
-Matt
Agent MJJ
agen...@futuretek.net
www.futuretek.net/agentmjj
Dave
> Yes, I think that Berlin is an asshole, so people don't like him. I
> guess Jaco was a "great asshole", and since he was a "great asshole"
> first, everyone loves him and hates the "second generation asshole"
>
> Later
>
> -Matt
Many of these "great" players have egos, attitudes, and are in general
hard to get along with. Berlin and Jaco represent a small portion of
this large group. Scott Thunes is king of this group. However, I do not
consider the aforementioned personality traits when I'm listening to
their recordings or learning there songs. While I believe these traits
may affect their ability to play music, I'm not going to dwell on them
to the point where I'm going to throw out their recordings and lambast
them.
In my mind only one thing counts...Do they make great music?
8^) Dave
jeffbonny
On Sat, 03 Jan 1998 14:08:15 -0500, Dave <val...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>Many of these "great" players have egos, attitudes, and are in general
>hard to get along with.
Egos?
Hmmm.
>In my mind only one thing counts...Do they make great music?
No arguments there.
jeff
n.van.bc.ca
zjb...@netcomz.caz
to mail remove z's
Fishiesue
No I'm sorry ...........in this age of moral decline it IS important to be a
nice person......the "Oh he's brilliant...so it's ok if he's an asshole" type
attitude......fuels this shit world we live in......
Dave
Fishiesue wrote:
I never said it was okay to be an asshole. It's rather obvious that
morals have declined, especially with regard to popular music. I hear
more beeps than ever before when I listen to the radio. However, I'm not
going to go through my recordings and say " Okay, Jaco was obnoxious,
gotta get rid of that album; Miles Davis did drugs, gotta get rid of
that one." I think it would be best to learn from their musical genius,
then use it in your own unoffending way.
I would also like to note that many of the jazz and fusion players who
are out to lunch in one way or another are great musicians. If they
didn't have personal problems they'd still be great musicians, and
chances are they would've got where they were without their problems.
There is a huge difference between them and many of the current crop of
popular musicians. The current crop needs to shock and offend people to
get their attention, since they can't rely on their weak musical
abilities alone.
8^) Dave
cb...@uniserve.com
Bill Hatcher <bhat...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Mikewyz wrote:
>> the following is a letter I sent to Bass Player magazine lately. it covers
>> many points I'd like to raise about Jeff Berlin and I feel it's worth
>> discussion in a forum such as this. I look forward to responses.
>Back in the 70s right when the Jaco craze took over almost every bass player's
>life, Jeff Berlin came to Atlanta to play with a local group for a few weeks. He
>was a total unknown. We are sitting at a table in the club just talking shop and
>he tells me he has NEVER even heard of Jaco. He goes back on stage and continues
>to play the Jaco style and in the middle of one of his solos breaks into "Portrait
>of Tracy". He wasn't just kidding me either. He was trying to cover up the fact
>that he WAS and still IS a Jaco clone.
>Unless he has changed, I found him to be VERY arrogant. This guy will never live
>down being in the Jaco shadow.
>On the other hand Jaco was a pretty arogant guy but in a more genious kind of
>way. He came to Atlanta several times and would just walk in to a club and just
>walk straight up on stage and take the bass out of whoever was playing bass on the
>gig and start playing like he owned the band,club,song, everything!!!
>Regards. Bill
jeez..have you ever heard Jeff play? Can you play that good? As
you've obviously noted, Jeff is a man who believes in saying what he
thinks, whether it meets your approval or not.
I think he's entitled to his opinion, and has valid points to make.
Take it or leave it.
Yes he can be somewhat arrogant for sure, so what?
The fact remains that he is a world class BASS player, and most of us
don't have to the total commitment to bass to ever achieve his level
of musicianship, myself included.
As for a Jaco CLONE, that's one of the dumbest things I've heard all
week.. Mind you it's only wednesday.
But then you are entitled to your opinion, as are we all.
Let's just keep plugging away , and maybe by the time we croak we will
know 10% of what he's already forgotten, not to mention playing it.
regards
Jim
bdon...@gmail.com
Beach Runner
> We both studied with Charlie Benacos back in our Berklee days though at different times, and yes Jeff was known around town and amongst most players at Berklee as a bit out of control ego-wise. That said, having seen him play many many times around Boston, he was pretty amazing. I studied with Miroslav Vitous who's ego was every bit as big as Jeff's. If you can back it up then it's fine. From a musical standpoint no bass player was playing the stuff Jeff was. I agree he was a bit busy for my taste, but you don't hear Jaco playing the complex lines Jeff played. I saw Jaco live and he pretty much sucked the night I saw him and he wasn't much more than the king of penotonics played badly in a stoned stuper and overrated in my book. Jeff never gave a bad performance that I ever saw. He's definitely mellowed and I think he has a lot to say.
There may well be some great players, but few have the historic significance of Jaco.
Like many, he had a substance abuse problem, but he was murdered, we have no
idea what he could have achieved.
People like Jeff Berlin or such are great players, there is no doubt. He also has had a lot more years to develop and improve his bass playing, years stolen from Jaco's life. He was actively engaged in studying the greatest musical works in many genre's.
Jaco's influence on the bass will last a century, long after Jeff Berlin is buried and forgotten. He was the evolutionary force. He was the genius. You saw him on a bad night, that is not a reflection of his influence on music.
Bass players years after his life still talk about Jaco's vibes on their instruments, even upright players.
The other's a just great players.
pedull...@gmail.com
> the following is a letter I sent to Bass Player magazine lately. it covers
> many points I'd like to raise about Jeff Berlin and I feel it's worth
> discussion in a forum such as this. I look forward to responses.
>
>
> Dear Editor,
> My 7+ year subscription to Bass Player is hanging by a thread. Your Jeff
> Berlin interview was pretty disgraceful, considering that you teased us with
> the question "Motormouth of Musical Genius?" on the cover. The story inside
> was nothing more than a puff piece that made this controversial bassist look
> like the next Mingus.
>
> While I would agree that Berlin is amusing to read, I do feel the value of
> his musical ability is quite arguable. No doubt he is technically gifted and
> quite outspoken, and even the star of a terribly funny instructional video.
> However, as one who has read nearly every article he has written for Bass
> Player and Guitar Player many years ago, I find that he has very little to say.
> Over and over Berlin says the same things and while they are valuable and
> things I agree with (get a teacher, learn to read, transcribe Sonny Stitt, etc)
> he's not saying much.
>
> Beyond that are his questionable musical qualifications. Berlin LOVES to
> name-drop about all the folks he has jammed with. However, a look at his
> discography shows just how few of those people want to _continue_ working with
> Berlin. You may notice, in the Feb. 98 issue that has Berlin's discography, it
> is much shorter than Christian McBride's, and he has been in the biz for MUCH
> less time than Berlin. Beyond that, how easy is it to find some of Berlin's
> work in a music store (and not a "out-of-print" only store)? I would even
> venture to say that Berlin is the least recorded member of your Advisory Board.
> No, this isn't the best qualification for taking one's advice, but it makes
> one ask Why this is.
>
> While Jeff has been gone from the LA music scene for a while, there are
> stories that remain about him. The jist of such stories is that he does NOT
> reason why Frank Zappa, John McLaughlin, Robert Fripp, and Eddie Van Halen
> never recorded with him and why Bill Bruford and Allan Holdsworth are Former
> talks about how he admires Sting and Paul McCartney. While most musicians
> would be proud to write songs as good as they have, Berlin says, "I would love
> to be able to put down eight bars of bass solo on any one of their songs."