WARNING! - Ken Smith Basses
David Horton
Had a really odd experience with Ken Smith bass company a few weeks ago
that I thought I should pass on to the world. I recently changed the Ken
Smith compressor-type strings on my 5-string Warwick, then sold another
set to someone renting some PA equipment from me. I’d bought six and
later twelve sets of strings from Ken Smith direct several years ago and
these were the last sets in the box. My customer likes the strings, asks
if he can get another set. No problem, I’ll just call up Ken Smith,
they’ll look up my records and I’ll order a dozen or two sets; sell a
few sets, use a few, whatever. Since we hadn’t ordered anything from
them for several years, I figured just put it on my personal VISA. Five
minutes and I’ll get back to my real business.
Well no, first KS wants to charge me higher than retail price (i.e. 50%
of list of $40/set). I’m president of Bokonon Productions, a business
dealing with DSP audio software/hardware, music production, publishing,
and as a very small sideline, rent out some of our live sound equipment
when we aren’t otherwise using it. Ken Smith Basses has us fill out a
credit application before they’ll put the charges on my personal VISA.
They ask for our business bank account numbers before they’ll sell me
strings and charge me upfront.
I refuse. We dig through a couple of years of our receipts, find the old
invoices. I grit my teeth and write Ken Smith a polite accompanying FAX
pointing out **again** that a) we weren’t strangers, we’d done business
twice before, b) that Bokonon Productions isn’t a music store but we can
put together systems, including obtaining and reselling equipment for
our steady clients, c) I’m not asking for payment terms, I’m willing to
pay upfront, d) they couldn’t possibly have any concerns about bypassing
their local retailer since no one in Austin sells their strings, and e)
a couple of hundred dollars of strings was trivial to me, let’s do this
deal and move on.
This had gone on a week and a half by now. A week and a half over some
bloody stupid bass strings!!! It’s not like I’m exporting supercomputers
to Iraq or something, these are just bass strings!!!
They leave me a voice mail that they’ve graciously decided to sell me
some strings, and at quite a decent price, too. I’d already decided that
Ken Smith was way too much hassle to deal with, but I figure one more
phonecall and get this timesink behind me. Even decided to order 30 sets
of strings plus 23 additional low B strings so I wouldn’t have to deal
with Ken Smith Basses again for a long, long time, if ever.
Ken Smith Basses then demands my tax ID number and copies of my tax
records before they’ll sell us a few sets of strings. That’s right,
stupid as it sounds. Even assuming that all they meant by ‘tax records’
was our sales taxes returns, and not my business or income taxes, what
business is it of theirs how much or how little equipment we sell? We
want to buy some strings, and if they give us a decent price we can buy
quantities, I don’t want to submit to a damn speculum exam over some
little strips of wound metal ! ! !
I mean the guy on the phone, A.J. was polite and friendly and seemed
willing to take my money, but his hands are tied, he isn’t even allowed
to accept a business phone order without repeated consultation with
their marketing manager, who wouldn’t talk with me directly.
It’s possible, I suppose, for someone to be a real idiot at one area of
his business and good at another area. But I find it extremely difficult
to imagine that any company that could turn a five-minute string order
into a week-and-a-half of phonetag and time-wasting could possibly make
a bass that’s good enough to be worth $4000. That’s more expensive than
a Warwick, a Zon, a Tobias, a Pedulla, a Wal, a Modulus, a Fernandes,
four Fenders, three Rickenbackers, etc. Whooo, and if you ever needed
any service or a replacement part after buying one of their basses, it’d
be a nightmare to deal with these yutzes to get it fixed. I’d stay away
from their basses if I were y’all.
David Horton
President & CEO
Bokonon Productions
Austin, Texas 78704 (the ‘04 means something here)
bok...@io.com
Russell m. Gellman
I think you need to chill.... you're dealing with a big business, and
they need to cover their asses. Especially when it comes to tax forms.
Blame the lawyers if you must (I'm in law school myself, and would resent
that just as much), but I doubt Mr. Ken Smith knows of your personal
difficulties....
Russell
David Horton (bok...@io.com) wrote:
: Had a really odd experience with Ken Smith bass company a few weeks ago
Ben Jacoby
David Horton (bok...@io.com) spake thusly:
<snip nightmare story of company too busy to be bothered with customers>
: It’s possible, I suppose, for someone to be a real idiot at one area of
: his business and good at another area. But I find it extremely difficult
: to imagine that any company that could turn a five-minute string order
: into a week-and-a-half of phonetag and time-wasting could possibly make
: a bass that’s good enough to be worth $4000. That’s more expensive than
: a Warwick, a Zon, a Tobias, a Pedulla, a Wal, a Modulus, a Fernandes,
: four Fenders, three Rickenbackers, etc. Whooo, and if you ever needed
: any service or a replacement part after buying one of their basses, it’d
: be a nightmare to deal with these yutzes to get it fixed. I’d stay away
: from their basses if I were y’all.
Like does any modern business give a flying freak how much time *you've*
got to waste? Does Microsoft care how long it takes to reboot or
re-install all your software when their system crashes? No.
This is just typical bad management and a sure sign that a company will
soon fold. It's not a new thing. Anyone here remember the old Dumont labs?
At one point they made virtually ALL the equipment in TV stations. But
then they got bureaucratic and started doing all this refusing credit and
demanding payment in advance crap even to huge TV congomerates! Bottom
line: today nobody ever heard of the former industry leader.
My advice is buy your Ken Smith now and put it away mint. Once the
company succeeds in putting itself out of business, it will be worth
plenty as a collectors item and curiosity. :)
: David Horton
: President & CEO
: Bokonon Productions
: Austin, Texas 78704 (the ‘04 means something here)
: bok...@io.com
--
Benjamin Jacoby | "Some rob you with a six-gun and some with
| a fountain pen." ..........Woodie Guthrie
(SPAM GUARD! Delete the no spam letters in name to email.)
tko...@well.com
>Like does any modern business give a flying freak how much time *you've*
>got to waste? Does Microsoft care how long it takes to reboot or
>re-install all your software when their system crashes? No.
>This is just typical bad management and a sure sign that a company will
>soon fold. It's not a new thing. Anyone here remember the old Dumont labs?
snip!
I have never been impressed with Ken Smith basses, but that said, the
experience he went through was horrible. Ken Smith is not that big of
a company are they? It reminds me of the time I tried to get
replacement short scale bass strings for my Guild B4 acoustic bass
guitar. No retailer ANYWHERE carries these. I spent 2 days talking to
all sorts of people at the now Fender owned Guild. Never got any
strings.
So now I have to buy long scale and clip 'em.
I and I will never buy a bass with "unique" strings
And after this, I will never buy a Ken Smith hunk 'o lumber
Brian Rost
I can understand your frustrations, but asking for tax IDs is pretty
standard business when doing wholesaling. The seller needs to be able to
prove to the govt. that no sales tax was due because the sale was
wholesale, not retail. Not being an already franchised dealer, they
needed that info.
I would also expect that Smith being a small company might not be as on
the ball in the office as a larger outift with a dedicated sales group.
So what does having hassles in buying strings wholesale have to do with
why noone else should buy their stuff?
--
Brian Rost
3Com Corp.
978-264-1550
br...@synnet.com
*********************************************************************
Monkey Island: a dance band for the new millenium
*********************************************************************
jb
On Wed, 06 May 1998 12:06:42 GMT, tko...@well.com () wrote:
snip
>No retailer ANYWHERE carries these.
The last time I was in Long and Mcquade in Vancouver they had three of
these things in stock. If you're hot to buy an over priced instrument
from a store who's only concern is getting your money I guess L&M is
the place to go. They'll also give yer dog credit provided it has a
listed phone # and 20% down. Hmmm. That should make the payments on a
Ken Smith about $500 a month. Here puppy, nice doggy. Fetch the bass.
jb
pemberton.bc.ca
loose the x's to mail
Bill Bolton
On Wed, 06 May 1998 12:06:42 GMT, tko...@well.com () wrote:
>I have never been impressed with Ken Smith basses, but that said, the
>experience he went through was horrible.
There are lots of places that Ken Smith strings can be bought at a 50%
discount off list price, over the phone by credit card. The LA Bass
Exchange and Bass Northwest are just two of them. There was no need
to go to directly to the manufacturer for what was obviously a retail
sale.
Cheers,
Bill
Bill Bolton billb...@computer.org
Sydney, Australia
Matthew Ivaliotes
billbolton.RE...@computer.org (Bill Bolton) writes:
>There are lots of places that Ken Smith strings can be bought at a 50%
>discount off list price, over the phone by credit card. The LA Bass
>Exchange and Bass Northwest are just two of them. There was no need
>to go to directly to the manufacturer for what was obviously a retail
>sale.
Be that as it may, that's still no excuse for Ken Smith to request
everything short of a blood test in order to make the sale happen. They
very easily could have told the guy to go to Bass Northwest, for instance.
Instead, they just made the transaction hell.
Matt I.
Bill Bolton
David Horton <bok...@io.com> wrote:
> I’d stay away from their basses if I were y’all.
I've found Ken Smith basses to be very pleasant to deal with as a
mere user, and their products to be excellent.
But then again I'm not trying to pose as a real reseller and
complaining when I try to get dealer prices on a credit card when only
buying a dozen sets of strings every couple of years.
> David Horton
> President & CEO
> Bokonon Productions
Grandiose titles obviously come cheap in your area.
Bill
Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia
Bill Bolton
lo...@staff.uiuc.edu (Matthew Ivaliotes) wrote:
> Be that as it may, that's still no excuse for Ken Smith to request
> everything short of a blood test in order to make the sale happen. They
> very easily could have told the guy to go to Bass Northwest, for instance.
> Instead, they just made the transaction hell.
Read the original message again. The purchaser insisted on dealing
directly with Ken Smith and then complains about how difficult it was
in satisfy the legitimate conditions of a wholesale transaction.
Cheers,
Harald Rost
Bill Bolton schrieb:
> On Wed, 06 May 1998 12:06:42 GMT, tko...@well.com () wrote:
>
> >I have never been impressed with Ken Smith basses, but that said, the
>
> >experience he went through was horrible.
>
> There are lots of places that Ken Smith strings can be bought at a 50%
>
> discount off list price, over the phone by credit card. The LA Bass
> Exchange and Bass Northwest are just two of them. There was no need
> to go to directly to the manufacturer for what was obviously a retail
> sale.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bill
>
> Bill Bolton billb...@computer.org
> Sydney, Australia
I can highly recommend Bass Central
(http://www.basscentral.com/frame.html).
They have a String Club where you order strings for a fair price (Ken
Smith for $17) and they ship worldwide.
BTW: Ken Smith string are IMHO one of the top strings, so are the
basses!
Harald Rost
email:haral...@ifb.uni-bamberg.de
Matthew Ivaliotes
billboltonRE...@computer.org (Bill Bolton) writes:
>Read the original message again. The purchaser insisted on dealing
>directly with Ken Smith and then complains about how difficult it was
>in satisfy the legitimate conditions of a wholesale transaction.
I may be underinformed here, and I admit that. But it seemed from the
story that this particular individual had done a wholesale transaction
via credit card with Ken Smith in the past with no problem. Why wasn't
there some sort of record?
And to address a previous post of yours, credit card transactions in and
of themselves are not a problem for a good seller, regardless of the type
of transaction. In my business, a lot of official purchasing is done via
credit card (a corporate or university card), and yes, sometimes that's
for purchases with intended resales.
The bottom line to me seems to be that Ken Smith either should have had a
past record of this organization buying wholesale and honored that record,
or simply said "no, we can't do that for you." Again, we're only hearing
one side of the story, but it sounds like this guy was given the run
around in the hopes that he'd give up, rather than just having the 'law'
laid down simply.
Matt I.
Aaron Turner
Matthew Ivaliotes (lo...@staff.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: I may be underinformed here, and I admit that. But it seemed from the
: story that this particular individual had done a wholesale transaction
: via credit card with Ken Smith in the past with no problem. Why wasn't
: there some sort of record?
There was quite a time gap - maybe they had updated/recomputerised their
databases and purged companies that hadn't purchased anything more than a
few boxes of strings 2 years before?
: The bottom line to me seems to be that Ken Smith either should have had a
: past record of this organization buying wholesale and honored that record,
If the company is a small one with which you haven't done business with
for some time it seems prudent to check up on it.
Aaron Turner
Matthew Ivaliotes
ag...@york.ac.uk (Aaron Turner) writes:
>There was quite a time gap - maybe they had updated/recomputerised their
>databases and purged companies that hadn't purchased anything more than a
>few boxes of strings 2 years before?
Possible, yes.
>: The bottom line to me seems to be that Ken Smith either should have had a
>: past record of this organization buying wholesale and honored that record,
>If the company is a small one with which you haven't done business with
>for some time it seems prudent to check up on it.
I suppose that's true. I guess I just react strongly to the notion of a
company being anything other than bend-over-backwards helpful when someone
is trying to buy their product.
Matt I.
Jeffrey Mondick
lo...@staff.uiuc.edu (Matthew Ivaliotes) wrote:
>I may be underinformed here, and I admit that. But it seemed from the
>story that this particular individual had done a wholesale transaction
>via credit card with Ken Smith in the past with no problem. Why wasn't
>there some sort of record?
Often customer financial situations change, especially over two years.
>
>And to address a previous post of yours, credit card transactions in and
>of themselves are not a problem for a good seller, regardless of the type
>of transaction. In my business, a lot of official purchasing is done via
>credit card (a corporate or university card), and yes, sometimes that's
>for purchases with intended resales.
>
Credit card purchases a problem? No. Credit card fraud is.
>
>Matt I.
Having worked in computer distribution for over 3 years, i am very
familiar with the type of situation this gentleman ran into. Be that
as it may, wholesalers/manufacturers are REQUIRED to have the tax
information on file before they can deal with a company (in some
cases, audited financials are required for the customer). This is not
Ken Smith's fault, it is the law. Not only does this policy protect
the dealers and the manufacturer, it also protects the consumers
(buying from bogus sources - Manny's House o' Bass .......). If not
for policies such as this, i could always call up Intel and say
something like ... "Andy?? This is Bill. Can you send me a couple of
MMX chips?? Just put it on my card ....."
Plus, it gives reason why the manufacturer did not charge any sort of
taxes to the consumer .....
jeff
Jeff Mondick jj...@pipeline.com
Bassist, Stickist, EURB, (soon) Warr Guitar for Spelling Tuesday
System admin, etc in my spare time
http://www.pipeline.com/~jjmon/spellingtues.htm
Matthew Ivaliotes
Makes sense. As I mentioned, I was indeed underinformed.
Matt I.
z o i n k s
Here is the deal on Mr. Ken Smith.....
He is known in the industry to be more on the "eccentric" (for lack of a
better word) side of the coin. He does things the way he wants..... If he
rubs you the wrong way one day, he may be the opposite the next day....
Smith is not like Fender MIC....
Its a few guys in the office etc..... he even moved the office from NYC back
to Perkasie, Pa. a little bit ago; that's where they make the basses.
So any problems should be approached as "that's the charm of Smith basses"
I am sure Ken Smith is set in his ways..... so you have to go with the flow
and smile.
also Smith played a big role in the development of today's modern electric
bass; so there is a little bit of an ego (I've been told)....but rightly so,
I feel....
all my info comes from those that have delt with him over the years..
retailers and other luthiers.....
his stuff rock though!
--
"Trying is the first step towards failure"
Homer Simpson
Dan
I've met Ken quite a few times. I've purchased a few basses from him.
He's wonderful to talk to. If you bullshit him, he won't waste his time
with you. He shut down his manhattan office because there was no reason
to keep it open and he wanted to give his family a better quality of
life
than you get in nyc. I've heard all the garbage about him, but his
(work) life
is dedicated to the bass guitar. He is a perfectionist of sorts.
There's
no reason to put him down (not that you were really doing that, but I've
heard others do it). I'm not using Smith basses anymore, but I do feel
that
his are among the best in the world, even though you might run into an
occasional bass that isn't top notch.
z o i n k s
I would like to reitirate to anyone reading;
I wasn't putting Ken Smith down at all.. or trashing him.....
I actually enjoy people that keep you on your toes...
I think Smith is that type... he has "personality"
Dan wrote:
--
David Horton
Well, Dan, I've never met Ken and had not heard any of the garbage about
the company that you refer to below, don't really know anything about
their history. To me, they were just a company on the other end of a
phone line. Couldn't care less if they were located in Manhatten or
Minnesota, as long as they handle their business with me ethically and
professionally. In myopinion, getting out of NYC is a good idea for
anyone, great place to visit, horrible place to live.
But as I said, the Ken Smith Bass Company was extraordinarily and
amazingly unprofessional in their dealings with me. All I got from them
*was* bullshit and pointless hassles. I have money, you have strings,
let's trade, at the root it's as simple as that. What's the need of
credit applications and tax investigations to buy a dozen or two sets of
bass strings mailorder? Ken may be a fine person for all I know, but it
appears that he's surrounded himself with yutzes. As I said, in ~25
years of being involved with pro audio to some degree or another, never
ran into any company that was so reluctant to take my money.
I've learned over the years it's usually not worth my time to deal with
idiots who make life unnecissarily difficult. In a way, I'm kicking
myself for breaking one of my own rules: within the first two days, had
figured out KSB sales was very unprofessional, should have just walked
away (from ordering strings) then and not let it drag out a
week-and-a-half.
David Horton
Bokonon Productions
Warwick 5_string Thumb, Pearce B2p, Bag End & Pearce/Eden
Wish my playing was as good as the equipment ;-)
P.S. Didn't have time to reply, but I REALLY liked the joke about the
bass stools only being available from Ken SMith, whoever posted that !!
LAughing at it again right now......
Jeffrey Mondick
It doesn't sound like anything unusual was done before a wholesale
sale - beleive it or not, most manufacturers and wholesalers are even
more strict than this, even to the point of demanding financials
before they do business with you. Try doing business with Ingram
Micro or Merisel (both distributors) as a new customer and you will
see what i mean .... while your at it, try going direct with some of
the top computer manufacturers and see how far you get ... better yet,
try Fender or Gibson. What you are complaining about is standard
practice for companies nowadays ....
No flames intended.
David Horton <bok...@io.com> wrote:
No dealers in Autsin?? We have at least 4 Ken Smith String dealers
here in Harrisburg, a substantialy smaller city ...
>This had gone on a week and a half by now. A week and a half over some
>bloody stupid bass strings!!! It’s not like I’m exporting supercomputers
>to Iraq or something, these are just bass strings!!!
>
>They leave me a voice mail that they’ve graciously decided to sell me
>some strings, and at quite a decent price, too. I’d already decided that
>Ken Smith was way too much hassle to deal with, but I figure one more
>phonecall and get this timesink behind me. Even decided to order 30 sets
>of strings plus 23 additional low B strings so I wouldn’t have to deal
>with Ken Smith Basses again for a long, long time, if ever.
>
>Ken Smith Basses then demands my tax ID number and copies of my tax
>records before they’ll sell us a few sets of strings. That’s right,
>stupid as it sounds. Even assuming that all they meant by ‘tax records’
>was our sales taxes returns, and not my business or income taxes, what
>business is it of theirs how much or how little equipment we sell? We
>want to buy some strings, and if they give us a decent price we can buy
>quantities, I don’t want to submit to a damn speculum exam over some
>little strips of wound metal ! ! !
>
>
>I mean the guy on the phone, A.J. was polite and friendly and seemed
>willing to take my money, but his hands are tied, he isn’t even allowed
>to accept a business phone order without repeated consultation with
>their marketing manager, who wouldn’t talk with me directly.
>
>It’s possible, I suppose, for someone to be a real idiot at one area of
>his business and good at another area. But I find it extremely difficult
>to imagine that any company that could turn a five-minute string order
>into a week-and-a-half of phonetag and time-wasting could possibly make
>a bass that’s good enough to be worth $4000. That’s more expensive than
>a Warwick, a Zon, a Tobias, a Pedulla, a Wal, a Modulus, a Fernandes,
>four Fenders, three Rickenbackers, etc. Whooo, and if you ever needed
>any service or a replacement part after buying one of their basses, it’d
>be a nightmare to deal with these yutzes to get it fixed. I’d stay away
>from their basses if I were y’all.
>
>
>David Horton
>President & CEO
>Bokonon Productions
>Austin, Texas 78704 (the ‘04 means something here)
>bok...@io.com
My Ken Smith bass was one of the finest basses i've ever owned, and
i've owned a lot. Like i said before, no flames intended and i
certainly do not want to argue, but this is standard practice when
dealing with a new company for a wholesaler (and if it's been a few
years, you might as well be a new company ...). Business is rough
these days!!
Jeffrey Mondick
David Horton <bok...@io.com> wrote:
>
>But as I said, the Ken Smith Bass Company was extraordinarily and
>amazingly unprofessional in their dealings with me. All I got from them
>*was* bullshit and pointless hassles. I have money, you have strings,
>let's trade, at the root it's as simple as that. What's the need of
>credit applications and tax investigations to buy a dozen or two sets of
>bass strings mailorder? Ken may be a fine person for all I know, but it
>appears that he's surrounded himself with yutzes. As I said, in ~25
>years of being involved with pro audio to some degree or another, never
>ran into any company that was so reluctant to take my money.
>
>David Horton
>Bokonon Productions
>Warwick 5_string Thumb, Pearce B2p, Bag End & Pearce/Eden
>Wish my playing was as good as the equipment ;-)
>
>
>P.S. Didn't have time to reply, but I REALLY liked the joke about the
>bass stools only being available from Ken SMith, whoever posted that !!
>LAughing at it again right now......
>
>
Like i said in a previous post, call up Fender and see how far you get
with them ... it's all standard business procedure nowadays ...
peace.
Smiley
>
>P.S. Didn't have time to reply, but I REALLY liked the joke about the
>bass stools only being available from Ken SMith, whoever posted that !!
>LAughing at it again right now......
>
You're welcome, did you ever find a NICE portable stool? I'm still looking.
Smiley :)