Balanced XLR outputs: recording and live
Pete Turner
I noticed that there are an increasing number of amps (and even some
effects units) that have direct balanced line outputs.
I was wondering if any of you have comments on if you use these XLR's
to record with (i.e. going directly to the board or not). Is this a feature
you look for in new products you buy? Pro's? Cons? How about playing live?
Do you use the XLR's to run signal to the house PA playing out?
Let's keep the comments public; maybe somebody else besides me is curious.
Laterness...
Pete
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Pete Turner | "I'm not looking back -- but I want to look
Intel Corporation | around me now"
5000 W. Chandler Blvd. |
M/S CH3-36 | -- Geddy Lee/Neil Peart
Chandler, AZ 85226 | ---------------------------------------------------
ptu...@sedona.intel.com | "...yeah, I've been to Phoenix...they call that
ATT: (602) 554-8906 | place 'The Valley of the Sun'...they should call
FAX: (602) 554-7281 | it 'The Surface of the Sun'!..."
|
Zeta Psi - Gamma Chapt. | -- Some unknown late-night comic
______________________________________________________________________________
Joshua Loftus
ptu...@sedona.intel.com (Pete Turner) writes:
>
>I noticed that there are an increasing number of amps (and even some
>effects units) that have direct balanced line outputs.
>
>I was wondering if any of you have comments on if you use these XLR's
>to record with (i.e. going directly to the board or not). Is this a feature
>you look for in new products you buy? Pro's? Cons? How about playing live?
>Do you use the XLR's to run signal to the house PA playing out?
I just did some recording thru the XLR out on my Hartke 3500. I used
mostly tube preamp, a little compression, and EQ to flavor. It
sounded really good. The engineer didn't have to do anything to my
sound. We were using a Yamaha DMR8 digital mixer/recorder, too, so
the conditions were demanding!
Peace.....
Mike Porter
>
>I noticed that there are an increasing number of amps (and even some
>effects units) that have direct balanced line outputs.
>
>I was wondering if any of you have comments on if you use these XLR's
>to record with (i.e. going directly to the board or not). Is this a feature
>you look for in new products you buy? Pro's? Cons? How about playing live?
>Do you use the XLR's to run signal to the house PA playing out?
>
>Let's keep the comments public; maybe somebody else besides me is curious.
>
> Laterness...
>
> Pete
I use low impedance runs whenever possible for two reasons (by the way, XLR is
one format of low impedance; RTS is another, which is Ring-Tip-Sleeve on a
stereo 1/4" phone jack). Low impedance lines are usually much quieter due to
the way they run two signals out of phase, then amplify the difference (any
noise picked up will be in-phase, including radio stations, and thus cancelled
out). The other is the ability to run longer lines without high frequency
loss that occurrs with the standard high impedance (guitar) cables. Anything
over 20 feet long with a guitar cable will start to lose signal...
---Michael...
John Reynolds
Similar experience here. I also have a Hartke 3500 and use the XLR out
to feed the soundboard at live shows. Our soundman tells me its a very
clean feed and usually requires little or no additional EQ. I use approximately
the same settings described above and select the post-eq setting for the
XLR output.
John Reynolds
Tektronix TV Division
Beaverton, OR
Michael Breen
Yes, XLR is the way to go. It is a great assett to have on an amp,
and sound men will love you for it. I am a bassist and a recording
and sound reinforcement engineer.
Technical details support this. Other posters have covered this
sufficiently for this forum. If anyone needs references, email me
directly and I'll flow them to you.
Michael Breen
singing and philosophizing
(with little or no signal loss)
In article <1p7gc7...@chnews.intel.com> ptu...@sedona.intel.com writes:
>I was wondering if any of you have comments on if you use these XLR's
>to record with (i.e. going directly to the board or not). Is this a feature
>you look for in new products you buy? Pro's? Cons? How about playing live?
>Do you use the XLR's to run signal to the house PA playing out?
[sig deleted]
My name is Brian Rost
In article <1p7gc7...@chnews.intel.com>, ptu...@sedona.intel.com (Pete Turner) writes...
>I was wondering if any of you have comments on if you use these XLR's
>to record with (i.e. going directly to the board or not). Is this a feature
>you look for in new products you buy? Pro's? Cons? How about playing live?
>Do you use the XLR's to run signal to the house PA playing out?
>
I do not use it for recording for a simple reason: the EQ and compression I can
get from my amp is not as quiet as what I can get from the studio FX rack, so I
usually don't even *use* an amp when recording in a pro studio (at home, I mike
the bass amp).
I use the XLR when playing live to go to the board. It's easier than using a
direct box (less cords, one less thing to hook up). My amp sends the XLR
pre-EQ so I can readjust the master volume and tone on stage without affecting
the house send.
Cons? Yeah, if there is no ground lift on the XLR send and you get ground hum
when hooked up to the board, you either have to lift the whole amp by using a
3-2 prong adapter (yecch) or use a direct box (which usually has a ground lift)
anyway. Also if you turn your amp off while the bass channel is up on the PA
board...*POP* (at 120 db).
My last two amps had this feature and I would be hesitant to buy a new amp that
did *not* have an XLR output.
Brian Rost @tecrus.enet.dec.com
****************************************************
* *
* The above does not reflect the opinions of *
* my employer. *
* *
* If music is outlawed, only outlaws will be *
* musicians. *
* *
****************************************************
Galen Watts
>effects units) that have direct balanced line outputs.
>
>I was wondering if any of you have comments on if you use these XLR's
>to record with (i.e. going directly to the board or not). Is this a feature
>you look for in new products you buy? Pro's? Cons? How about playing live?
>Do you use the XLR's to run signal to the house PA playing out?
There are good and bad points. Some of the good points are you don't
need a DI, the sound man loves you, it's probably cleaner than a DI and
it's definatly better than a microphone. A bad point mentioned before
is the lack (in most cases) of a GROUND LIFT SWITCH. This one little
switch or the lack thereof can cause sound men to go into the Priesthood.
I fail to understand why a company makes an amp head costing around $1K
and can't put a $1 switch on it. Marketing, sheesh.
Another post mentioned balanced/unbalanced and hi/lo impedance. You can
have lo impedance unbalanced (speaker lines) or high impedance balanced.
The fact that it's an XLR doesn't force it to be lo or hi or balanced.
Lo impedance does work better for long runs and balanced does reject noise
more than unbalanced. The industry does have some standards regarding
impedance and bal/unbal, but one thing they (we) haven't agreed on,
IS PIN 2 HOT OR IS PIN 3 HOT ??????????????????
The world may never know.
All comments are my employers'
Galen, KF0YJ
"Been here so long we got to callin' it home."
Mr Garry J. Wardrope
There are several distinct issues here and I will start by trying to
clarify them. XLR is a class of connectors commonly used for pro audio
applications not a signal standard.
The next issue is whither to use the signal directly from your amp as the
feed to the mixing desk or to mike up the speaker. (or indeed if you have a
separate pre-amp and use the signal directly from that).
If you do use the direct signal (i.e. not colored by the main amp and
speakers ( not to mention the room acoustics and microphone)) then there
are different ways of getting this direct signal to the desk. The two
most common ways are balanced and unbalanced lines. Unbalanced lines are
cheaper and virtually every amplifier will have one ( the line out).
Balanced lined are less common ( but becoming more common) and are a better
way of getting the signal to the desk. Most systems use Jack connectors
for unbalanced and XLR for balanced.
Having separated the issues I'll try and make some points. The appearance
an XLR connector on a piece of equipment in itself tells you nothing about the
signals on the pins. I'd bet that at least someone uses XLR connectors for
unbalanced line outs - check the spec.
There is a big difference between directly connected systems and miked
up systems. It is a preference which you prefer however directly connected
systems will give you a cleaner sound and are much easier to work with. The
sound will not be the same as the basic live sound ( Though it might be very
difficult to tell the difference). This is the big issue and subject to
much debate.
Balanced lines are technically better than unbalanced but the difference
they make is largely dependent on where and how you use your gear. DI boxes
convert unbalanced to balanced, particularly useful for long cable runs.
Hope this at least helps a little
Garry
--
Mail: Garry Wardrope, Computing Science Dept., Tel: (+44) 041-339 8855 x5322
Glasgow University, 17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow, UK. G12 8QQ
email: g...@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk
".. and even if I came in sight of paradise what price its moon without Marsco"
George Dibos
never learned to read music, and who has tried repeatedly to make sense of it
through textbooks and self-study... and failed every time:
(I'm speaking mostly of meter, here, or "seeing rhythms"--the note part of it
is pretty much just memorization and practice)
Know that there *IS* something out there that could help. It certainly has
for me, anyway.
Look in the back of any issue of Bass Player, and locate the small classified
ad for Carol Kaye's bass courses. One of them is a two-video sight reading
course, and I'll be damned if the thing doesn't work...
Before ordering it, know that it is *home made*, and the production values
show it. The sound is marginal in places, and some of the written materials
have left-in corrections, and so forth. And Carol's style is a very non-slick
sort of friendly goofiness that will make you smile. And the music is hand
written, not printed. And you get an entire (bizarre) stack of newspaper
clippings and studio logs about Carol's work along with your order than are
a visual non-sequitur... BUT:
If you forget all that and concentrate on the POINT of it all by doing the
lessons, you will very likely be able to sight read music when you're through.
I'm very nearly there, anyway, and I'm an old-hand "tough case" who'd finally
decided I COULDN'T do it for some reason. But there is a way to "see" meter
that's easy and logical--somewhat analagous to seeing entire words and
phrases when you read English, instead of individual letters. And the course
shows you how.
To further offset the homebrew production values, consider that you get two
hour long tapes for your appx $50 instead of the usual one. Also, that Carol's
service is excellent. I ordered through the MAIL on a Monday, and received the
course on Friday of the same week.
George
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| George Dibos | Kubicki Ex-Factor | All Blondie/Debbie |
| geo...@meaddata.com | Trace-Elliot amplification | Harry fans--please |
| (513) 865-1689 | Rock with the Roll still in it | E-mail!!! |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Anyone with old issues of Bass Player magazine to sell, please contact me! |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
George Plopper
>effects units) that have direct balanced line outputs.
>
>I was wondering if any of you have comments on if you use these XLR's
>to record with (i.e. going directly to the board or not). Is this a feature
>you look for in new products you buy? Pro's? Cons? How about playing live?
>Do you use the XLR's to run signal to the house PA playing out?
>
absolutely use the XLR out. It's great, and it takes no effort. The
sound always comes through clearly, and the fewer the parameters to
worry about (mic position, volume, feedback), the better. If you have
a chance to use the XLR out in a live situation, I'd recommend it. I
can't see any advantage to using the amp in a studio unles your particular
speaker setup is dear to you, and in that the case the XLR is a moot point.
--
George Plopper
Email: plo...@husc8.harvard.edu
"I wish somebody'd tell me what diddy-wah-diddy means."
Bob Davis
A minor addition on this point -- there is an EIA standard on the pinouts
of XLR's, and pin 2 is positive, pin 3 is inverted. This does not mean
that all manufacturers follow the standard, but increasingly they are.
I would like to second the comment re the lack of ground lift -- why?
This is way stupid. It is also stupid not to have an XLR DI out at all,
which is still common on lots-o-gear, since it is relatively cheap to add
a quality DI out.
--
Bob Davis -- bobd...@viewlogic.com
"Give me all the nasty little bits, hold the 'perceptual compression',
extra mustard and sauerkraut.".
kim...@vax.cns.muskingum.edu
> The industry does have some standards regarding
> impedance and bal/unbal, but one thing they (we) haven't agreed on,
>
> IS PIN 2 HOT OR IS PIN 3 HOT ??????????????????
>
> The world may never know.
>
>
is +.
Sorry, but I don't remember the issue to look it up, and the stack of 'em
is rather large...
jd
Galen Watts
>In article <Mar30.154...@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, ga...@picea.CFNR.ColoState.EDU (Galen Watts) writes:
>> The industry does have some standards regarding
>> impedance and bal/unbal, but one thing they (we) haven't agreed on,
>>
>> IS PIN 2 HOT OR IS PIN 3 HOT ??????????????????
>>
>> The world may never know.
>>
>>
>Actgually, according an article inRadio World, there is a standard - Pin 2
>is +.
We have a Midas console that has pin 3 hot, we have Yamaha stuff that has
pin 2 hot.
There is a standard, but it is not followed by all manufacturers.
The Audio Engineering Society issued a chart that would say if pin 2
or pin 3 was hot. The chart consisted of a circle divided into eighths
with every other section on pin 2 and the rest on pin 3. You spin the
little arrow around and wherever it lands, that's what you use.
I remeber that one of the Grateful Dead's crew has a shirt that says
"PIN 3 HOT" on the front and "PIN 2 HOT" on the back.
Read your owners' manuals,
Galen Watts, KF0YJ
Often on 14.185 at 05:00 UTC
Galen Watts
> In article <Mar30.154...@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>,
>ga...@picea.CFNR.ColoState.EDU (Galen Watts) writes:
>|> it's definatly better than a microphone. A bad point mentioned before
>|> is the lack (in most cases) of a GROUND LIFT SWITCH. This one little
>|> switch or the lack thereof can cause sound men to go into the Priesthood.
>|> I fail to understand why a company makes an amp head costing around $1K
>|> and can't put a $1 switch on it. Marketing, sheesh.
>
>It turns out that dealing with no ground lift switch is an easy problem
>to solve if you have a truly balanced line out on the XLR jack. The
>solution is to keep a 6" adapter cable handy that has the shield lifted
>off of pin 1 on one of the ends, while still maintaining the signal lines
>on pins 2 and 3.
>Alex Stagg, Microware Systems Corporation
>al...@microware.com - 515/224-1929
We have many Switchcraft male to female XLR "barrels" which we have wired
as ground lifts, polarity reversal, attenuators and filters. The barrel
alone costs around $10, two connectors on a cable costs $6, a switch $1.
If I have to put a ground lift on an amp, I have to be sure I get it back
when the show's over, and I have to shove it in a drawer in a roadbox. If
I do this for one amp at half the shows we do, that's about three hours of
labor a year, versus five minutes a year for a switch.
Greed. On the part of the manufacturer ($) and myself (time, hassle, energy).
I've modified my own stuff to include ground lifts, and I encourage
all to have someone competent modify theirs.
Galen Watts, KF0YJ
often on 21.250-21.350 MHz, 20:00 UTC weekends.
*****************My boss hates rigs without ground lifts.**********************
Michael J Kobb
>Actgually, according an article inRadio World, there is a standard - Pin 2
>is +.
>jd
We have a Midas console that has pin 3 hot, we have Yamaha stuff that has
pin 2 hot.
There is a standard, but it is not followed by all manufacturers.
The Audio Engineering Society issued a chart that would say if pin 2
or pin 3 was hot. The chart consisted of a circle divided into eighths
with every other section on pin 2 and the rest on pin 3. You spin the
little arrow around and wherever it lands, that's what you use.
I remeber that one of the Grateful Dead's crew has a shirt that says
"PIN 3 HOT" on the front and "PIN 2 HOT" on the back.
Well, the beauty of standards is that there are so many to choose
from.....
Seriously, anybody have good/bad/ambivalent experiences with the XLR
out on the SWR SM-400. I know it has an optional ground-lift (which
I'd certainly order) and a pad. Does it have pre/post EQ selection?
Does the amp's FX loop get patched in?
--Mike
Kevin Sullivan
happy owner of an Ashly SC-40 preamp. It has high and low level
outs (with level control on front panel) for your stage monitor,
and both unbalanced 1/4" and balanced XLR out *with ground lift* and
level control and pre/post eq switch for your send to the board. I
figure these features will cause many a soundman to bow down to me in
ultimate gratitude. Oh yeah, the preamp also sounds *much* better
than the one in the Peavey head I was previously using.
Peter Barszczewski
> Seriously, anybody have good/bad/ambivalent experiences with the XLR
> out on the SWR SM-400. I know it has an optional ground-lift (which
> I'd certainly order) and a pad. Does it have pre/post EQ selection?
> Does the amp's FX loop get patched in?
In my home set-up, I tend to mike my cabinet due to noise in the XLR out.
I am unaware of any ground-lift option. I tried ground lifting the entire
amp, but it didn't help. I will look at getting/ building a ground lift
XLR cable.
You can put the XLR in two modes, direct out and line. The line mode will
include your pre-amp (tube gain, eq, et al.) and effects loop. The level
out is controlled by your master volume. This makes it useless on stage,
as you don't have independant control over stage volume and line out
volume. It also a pain for my little studio, as I have to have the power
amp driving my speakers during recording. This means the bass bleeds into
other miked sound sources as I don't have isolation booths.
The DI mode adds the initial hi/low gain, but nothing else. I have used
the DI in live situations and it works fine. I like a bit of tube
distortion, so I tend to over-drive the tube pre-amp on stage. To do this
I put my active pick-ups through the high gain channel and crank the
pre-amp gain a bit. This causes the sound engineer to get really mad, as
the DI signal (active pickups * hi gain) is very hot, about +24 dB.
One feature I would like for certain situations, is to get the
pre-amp and effects loop out, but without any sound going to the power
amplifier. That way I can go direct into a board and use headphones for
practicing, or go direct into the board during recording without my sound
bleeding into other mic'ed equipment.
Could you fill me in on the gound lift and pad options. Are they
retro-fitable. How much? etc.
--
Peter A. Barszczewski ( *
(ba...@bnr.ca) ) ~|~ spirituality through technology.
Bell-Northern Research, Ltd. ( |
Montreal, Canada )
My name is Brian Rost
In article <BARSZ.93A...@bmtlh168.bnr.ca>, ba...@bnr.ca (Peter Barszczewski) writes...
>You can put the XLR in two modes, direct out and line. The line mode will
>include your pre-amp (tube gain, eq, et al.) and effects loop. The level
>out is controlled by your master volume. This makes it useless on stage,
>as you don't have independant control over stage volume and line out
>volume. It also a pain for my little studio, as I have to have the power
>amp driving my speakers during recording. This means the bass bleeds into
>other miked sound sources as I don't have isolation booths.
No problem...just insert a plug into the power amp in jacks and you're all set.
No input to the power amp means no sound from the speakers. In fact since the
amp is solid state, you don't even need to have a speaker connected.
Michael O. Brandt
>
> We have a Midas console that has pin 3 hot, we have Yamaha stuff that has
> pin 2 hot.
>
to me that BOTH (!) pins 2 and 3 in an XLR connector are hot! Much like
house wiring has two hot wires (the opposite phases of the 220V feed.)
The signal is the difference in voltages between the two hot wires. This
is the point of balanced signals - noise is introduced more or less
equally into the two hot wires, and subtracts out when the difference
is taken.
Now, what seems to be the big question is not which pin is hot, but which
is "plus" and which is "minus". We're talking about phase here. And
unless you have two correlated sources (such as a stereo mic), the
phasing is irrelevant. And even with correlated sources, as long as
your mixing console (or whatever) has all its inputs wired
consistently, it doesn't matter whether which pin is "plus".
Another analogy - reverse the wires on BOTH of a pair of stereo speakers.
You won't hear any difference!
------ Mike (just trying to be helpful :-) )
Galen Watts
>>In article <Mar31.214...@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> ga...@picea.CFNR.ColoState.EDU (Galen Watts) writes:
>> We have a Midas console that has pin 3 hot, we have Yamaha stuff that has
>> pin 2 hot.
>Sorry to nit-pick, but this "hot" terminology is bugging me. It seems
>to me that BOTH (!) pins 2 and 3 in an XLR connector are hot! Much like
>
>is "plus" and which is "minus". We're talking about phase here. And
Hot is generally referring to the positive pin, which becomes the negative
pin a half cycle later. This goes back to electric power terms, and because
it's easier to say HOT than POSITIVE over a noisy headset.
Phase is a fequency dependant phenomenon. What we are referring to is
POLARITY.
>Another analogy - reverse the wires on BOTH of a pair of stereo speakers.
>You won't hear any difference!
> ------ Mike (just trying to be helpful :-) )
If yoyr listening to music, the polarity of the speakers makes little
difference. The intelligibility of speech is very dependant on polarity,
since the waveform is very asymmetrical about zero. Look in some AES
journals or ASA journals, they've covered this point quite well.
Galen Watts, Member, Audio Engineering Society (AES).
Alex Stagg
Good point, I agree. The discussion started about amps and there oughta be
a place to put a switch somewhere. I don't setup/teardown that many shows
so I'm not concered about forgetting stuff. I just look for what can work
anytime, anywhere and right now that means using transformers (for things
other than amps) with noplace to put a switch, and no machine shop in
which to do it if it did. If I had an amp with an XLR and no ground switch,
I'd add one. And if it had no XLR, I'd add one, with maybe even it's own
level control.
--
Robert Bissett
>to record with (i.e. going directly to the board or not). Is this a feature
>you look for in new products you buy? Pro's? Cons? How about playing live?
>Do you use the XLR's to run signal to the house PA playing out?
My preamp is an ADA MB-1, so it does have a ground lift. This is the ONLY
way I would ever send a line to the PA, though without the lift I'd
probably have to use a DI or mike my cab. Almost every club I've played,
there's been a problem with hum that was easily solved by lifting the
ground (although sometimes I don't know the hum's coming from me because
the soundman didn't tell me he had gotten to me, so he runs around checking
things till I figure out what he's doing and fix it).
We played a club once where the soundman insisted on micing my cab, which
was a beat up old Peavey 18" + 2x10". I insisted otherwise, since I had
worked so hard on my bass sounds and didn't want that cab mucking things up
in addition to the normal PA-mucking. So he gave in and I plugged in an XLR.
Simple.
In recording, the XLR is a great way to go. The MB-1 also has a pre/post
switch, so I can hear or record my bass by itself as well as with the preamp
settings (though at instrument level, not line level -- I think). I have a
cab now that I wouldn't mind micing as well, but track limitations and our
tired backs prevented this.
If you like the way your bass sounds, and don't need a lot of variety (I
use a different patch for about every 2 songs), plugging straight into
the board is fine. If you want to use your preamp's eq, chorus, etc, I highly
suggest getting a preamp or head with XLR Out, but it should really have
a ground lift. I don't think it's terribly hard to make a ground lift
yourself, but I'll leave that up to those who really know.
Bobby
--
Bobby Bissett || I was a fine idea at the time
bis...@acs.bu.edu || Now I'm a brilliant mistake
-----------------------|| -D.P.A. MacManus (E.C.)
Michael J Kobb
Could you fill me in on the gound lift and pad options. Are they
retro-fitable. How much? etc.
Hmmm... I don't have the stuff with me, but it's listed as an
option in their literature. They're usually very friendly on the
phone. Give them a call. I think it's in the $100 - $200 range as
a factory option, but I don't know how much it'd cost as a retrofit.
--Mike
Robert Bissett
with not only a ground lift and pre/post switch (line/direct, to be more
technical), but it's own output control.
*Nice* unit. Other manufacturers should take a hint.
Mike Maier
that sounds much better than I'm currently playing. It really hides some
deficiencies in technique. But most impressive for practice and small room
playing is the enhancer that mixxes tube/solid-state subsystems. They've
also added a horn with the two 10's (maybe 8's???) into the cabinet
and built room for a 2-inch rack mount addins. Only had it for 4 weeks
and not much time to dig in.
The Padulla - pardon the cliche, but this is the most playable bass I've
ever layed my hands on. Now I can work on playing musically instead of
just bearing down on technique to traverse the fret board. I've been
playing on and off for 12 years and tried many basses. One thing to note
is this thing is not a 'stomp around stage' axe.
The combination is truely compliment each other and bring out the best
in each component of the system. Highest recommendations.
-Mikemai