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Open Letter To Jeff Berlin

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Skip Elliott Bowman

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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re: Column in May 1998 Bass Player Magazine

Dear Jeff,

First off, I want to thank you for all you have done for music in general
and bass guitar in particular over the last 25 years. You were one of my
first inspirations to excel, and you have proved yourself so many times
over that you have earned the right to whine a bit now and again <g>

That said, I don't know what you have against slap (especially as you're
so good at it--your intro to 5G still gives me a headache). If they had
taken your advice, where would Victor Wooten, Flea, and Nathanial
Phillips be today?

It's just a technique, like picking/plucking/thumbing/tapping. Please
give it a rest and put out another album.

And that's the way it is, Liz,
Skip "El Fumador"

spam...@teleport.com
Skip Elliott Bowman, Music & Travel
replace "spamisbad" to "skipster" to reply

"You can't have everything. Where would you put it?"
Steven Wright

James Martin

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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Skip Elliott Bowman <spam...@teleport.com> writes:
>first inspirations to excel, and you have proved yourself so many times
>over that you have earned the right to whine a bit now and again <g>

Yes, but has he earned the right to make a living by whining about the
"state of music education." For someone so concerned with music education
and with sight reading in particular, I can't remember the last time I saw
one of Mr. Berlin's articles which actually either: 1) discussed a
musical concept/technique, or 2) included a musical example. I get sick
of all the pedantry. I used to enjoy his articles; now I dread them.

>That said, I don't know what you have against slap (especially as you're
>so good at it--your intro to 5G still gives me a headache). If they had
>taken your advice, where would Victor Wooten, Flea, and Nathanial
>Phillips be today?

It's very likely that none of them (especially not Flea) are "musicians"
in his opinion. The list of things Berlin has dissed in the past is
practically without end: fretless basses, five and six string basses,
tab, slapping, ....

>It's just a technique, like picking/plucking/thumbing/tapping. Please
>give it a rest and put out another album.

Touche

james

Aidan

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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Skip Elliott Bowman

>That said, I don't know what you have against slap (especially as you're
>so good at it--your intro to 5G still gives me a headache). If they had
>taken your advice, where would Victor Wooten, Flea, and Nathanial
>Phillips be today?
>

>It's just a technique, like picking/plucking/thumbing/tapping. Please
>give it a rest and put out another album.


I know what Jeff has against slap. Two months ago I attended the biggest
open musical instrument fair in the world, the musikmesse here in beautiful
down town Frankfurt (check out Harmony Central for pix).

After 4 hours of seeing not very tallented musicians trying out not very
interesting basses I did start go get a little pissed off with hearing
flight of the bumble bee and page 7 from the Vic Wooten red hot licks unreal
book. Where I a more aggessive personality I would have fulfilled my dreams
and grabbed the next music-store-guy I saw slapping and asking him his
business -

Why you do that? Huh? It aint clever, it aint cool, it dont sound good,
nobody is impressesed. Why you inflict this pain on my ears?

Sure slapping is just a technique but it is a darn over used one. So many
young players think they can score extra points by leaning how to slap a few
Marcus Miller licks. This is the bass player's equivalent of guitarist
disease. You know the type of guitar player who things fast+distortion=good,
the type of guy who has to play a sub-VanHalen lick in every song and has to
play the very last note and has to be 20 times louder than he need be.

As Dave once pointed out slap bass is a groove thing (or should be) and it
works as part of the goove. It is part of the Bass players technique
repotoire and needs to be learned. But players with a lot of other things to
lean (which is most of us) shouldn't waste time turning a groove thing into
a solo thing or "the only thing" when they could be improving their muting,
their timing, their ear or their harmony.

Aidan.


Aidan

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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Aidan

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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Aaron Turner

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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Aidan (ahu...@c-s-k.de) wrote:
[...]

here here.

Slap is fun to do, but much over used. Even in funky music the groove
should be the thing. A (sadly deceased) bassist I knew could slap
incredibly well, but rarely did it outside jams despite being in a funk
band. I used to be able to do all that slapping and tapping stuff but
haven't had reason to use it much and I am now very rusty.

Fretless is another matter - find myself playing that more than fretted.

Aaron Turner

Dave

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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James Martin wrote:

> Yes, but has he earned the right to make a living by whining about the
>
> "state of music education." For someone so concerned with music
> education
> and with sight reading in particular, I can't remember the last time I
> saw
> one of Mr. Berlin's articles which actually either: 1) discussed a
> musical concept/technique, or 2) included a musical example. I get
> sick
> of all the pedantry. I used to enjoy his articles; now I dread them.
>

Jeff Berlin old articles in Guitar Player magazine included examples. He
likely saw a niche in the market and went for it.

> It's very likely that none of them (especially not Flea) are
> "musicians"
> in his opinion. The list of things Berlin has dissed in the past is
> practically without end: fretless basses, five and six string basses,
>
> tab, slapping, ....

I've read enough about Berlin to know this is not true. He has even
talked highly about Sheehan, who is obviously a very different player
than himself.

> >It's just a technique, like picking/plucking/thumbing/tapping.
> Please
> >give it a rest and put out another album.
>

> Touche
>
> james

8^) Dave


Dave

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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Skip Elliott Bowman wrote:

> re: Column in May 1998 Bass Player Magazine
>
> Dear Jeff,
>
> First off, I want to thank you for all you have done for music in
> general
> and bass guitar in particular over the last 25 years. You were one of
> my

> first inspirations to excel, and you have proved yourself so many
> times
> over that you have earned the right to whine a bit now and again <g>
>

> That said, I don't know what you have against slap (especially as
> you're
> so good at it--your intro to 5G still gives me a headache). If they
> had
> taken your advice, where would Victor Wooten, Flea, and Nathanial
> Phillips be today?
>

> It's just a technique, like picking/plucking/thumbing/tapping. Please
>
> give it a rest and put out another album.
>

> And that's the way it is, Liz,
> Skip "El Fumador"

As we all know, I'm a Jeff Berlin fan and defender (See BP letters,
6/98: Basic Training, Pt 2). However, I did think he was out of line
with the slap comments. A person of his knowledge and influence should
not be panning a useful, groove oriented technique. I believe he twisted
his argument in a way which he shouldn't have. If someone takes a
course or clinic in slap to educate themselves further be my guest. If
someone wants to take a course in picking (i.e., with a pick),
fingerpicking, or tap, be my guest again. Chances are they'll be more
well rounded.

Not slapping can definitely decrease the gigs available for us little
people. Jeff Berlin is obviously well established and other musicians
hiring him already know his limitations. Chances are he doesn't have to
compete with 10 other bassists for a gig. For the rest of us, the more
knowledgeable we are about our instruments and the greater our abilities
to play them, the more chances we have of getting a gig. Funk bands, top
40 bands, wedding bands, or freelance studio work will most likely
require slapping somewhere along the line.

8^) Dave

"Shut up and play yer guitar" - F. Zappa


RHS Linux User

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
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All I have to say about Jeff Berlin can be summed up by
his personally endorsed product lines....

Crate
Peavey

'nuff said.

Bill

=================================================

ant...@lynx.edu

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

>
> Re: Open Letter To Jeff Berlin

>
> From: "Aidan" <ahu...@c-s-k.de>
> Reply to: "Aidan"
> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:12:49 +0200
> Organization: IPF.net - Frankfurt, Germany
> Newsgroups:
> rec.music.makers.bass
> Followup to: newsgroup(s)
> References:
> <N5861.6665$326.4...@news.teleport.com>

>I know what Jeff has against slap. Two months ago I attended the biggest
>open musical instrument fair in the world, the musikmesse here in
beautiful
>down town Frankfurt (check out Harmony Central for pix).
>
>After 4 hours of seeing not very tallented musicians trying out not very
>interesting basses I did start go get a little pissed off with hearing
>flight of the bumble bee and page 7 from the Vic Wooten red hot licks
unreal
>book. Where I a more aggessive personality I would have fulfilled my
dreams
>and grabbed the next music-store-guy I saw slapping and asking him his
>business -
>
>Why you do that? Huh? It aint clever, it aint cool, it dont sound good,
>nobody is impressesed. Why you inflict this pain on my ears?

So alternating two fingers is clever? It must be cool then...
What about impressive?

Well, gee... it seems the most important thing is not the technique, but
the musical voice of the player. Whether you thump, play with a bow,
or beat on the bass with an old shoe, as long as a musical idea is being
expressed, who cares? If you don't care for that expression, move on.


>
>Sure slapping is just a technique but it is a darn over used one. So many
>young players think they can score extra points by leaning how to slap a
few
>Marcus Miller licks. This is the bass player's equivalent of guitarist

I tell you what... lets all play upright bass. I listen to electric
bass and I think "what a harsh, horrible perversion of the double bass.
All these kids now play electric bass, and I want to grab one on those
punks and say... 'Hey! you suck! Every time I go to a concert I
see one of YOU guys. Your not musical... why don't you play
a real bass?'"


>Aidan.

anthony


A. R. Molloy

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

In article <6jc6n1$a...@netaxs.com>, bill...@raptor.cqi.com (RHS Linux
User) wrote:

> All I have to say about Jeff Berlin can be summed up by
> his personally endorsed product lines....
>
> Crate
> Peavey
>
> 'nuff said.
>
> Bill

" 'nuff said."??? What the hell does that mean? You haven't said
anything! Well then, go spend big $$ on the flavor-of-the-month hottest
gear, and then you'll be a far better player than Berlin.

Yeah, whatever . . .

A. R. Molloy

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

In article <N5861.6665$326.4...@news.teleport.com>, Skip Elliott Bowman
<spam...@teleport.com> wrote:

> That said, I don't know what you have against slap (especially as you're
> so good at it--your intro to 5G still gives me a headache). If they had
> taken your advice, where would Victor Wooten, Flea, and Nathanial
> Phillips be today?

I have found over the years that many players (myself included) can't
stand slap; it served as an easy, "hip" diversion from learning other
basics and fundamental techniques in both bass playing, per se, and music
in general. Nonetheless, as others have pointed out in this thread, it is
a required evil (IMHO) given the current requirements of session playing.
It should be noted that Berlin is hardly alone in his opinions. Allan
Holdsworth, for example, has long been outspoken in his disdain for the
style, referring to it as "the thumb crap". He has stated his ongoing
intentions not to work with a player that does this.



> It's just a technique, like picking/plucking/thumbing/tapping. Please
> give it a rest and put out another album.

Agreed. It won't go away (regrettably), so just let it go.

Regards - Bob

Kjartan Klaussen

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

Dave skrev i meldingen <3559930B...@ix.netcom.com>...


>Skip Elliott Bowman wrote:
>
>> re: Column in May 1998 Bass Player Magazine
>>
>> Dear Jeff,
>>
>> First off, I want to thank you for all you have done for music in
>> general
>> and bass guitar in particular over the last 25 years. You were one of
>> my
>> first inspirations to excel, and you have proved yourself so many
>> times
>> over that you have earned the right to whine a bit now and again <g>
>>

>> That said, I don't know what you have against slap (especially as
>> you're
>> so good at it--your intro to 5G still gives me a headache). If they
>> had
>> taken your advice, where would Victor Wooten, Flea, and Nathanial
>> Phillips be today?
>>

>> It's just a technique, like picking/plucking/thumbing/tapping. Please
>>
>> give it a rest and put out another album.
>>

>> And that's the way it is, Liz,
>> Skip "El Fumador"
>
>As we all know, I'm a Jeff Berlin fan and defender (See BP letters,
>6/98: Basic Training, Pt 2). However, I did think he was out of line
>with the slap comments. A person of his knowledge and influence should
>not be panning a useful, groove oriented technique. I believe he twisted
>his argument in a way which he shouldn't have. If someone takes a
>course or clinic in slap to educate themselves further be my guest. If
>someone wants to take a course in picking (i.e., with a pick),
>fingerpicking, or tap, be my guest again. Chances are they'll be more
>well rounded.
>
>Not slapping can definitely decrease the gigs available for us little
>people. Jeff Berlin is obviously well established and other musicians
>hiring him already know his limitations. Chances are he doesn't have to
>compete with 10 other bassists for a gig. For the rest of us, the more
>knowledgeable we are about our instruments and the greater our abilities
>to play them, the more chances we have of getting a gig. Funk bands, top
>40 bands, wedding bands, or freelance studio work will most likely
>require slapping somewhere along the line.
>


I am a professional bass player, and I have never in my carees met a
requierment for slapping!
I do play slap bass, but no one has ever asked me to "try do it slap style!"
I do sossion work, club gigs, weddings etc. I find that in cover bands the
most important thing is to be able to hold a great groove!
A band leader will rather hire a great groove player who doesn't slap, than
a player able to slap, tap and with an OK groove.
Slap doesn't matter at all! If you do it, you will probably have use for it,
but if you are learning to play bass, ask yourself if it isn't smarter to
get your groove together before learning hot licks!
Learn to slap by all means (heck, maybe your groove will open more from
exposure to the slap style), but don't listen to all the videos and clinics
going over and over about double thumping quacklets with both thumbs....

Groove is king. no matter which technique!
If you want to do it, do it, but not as an excuse for a weak groove, and
please don't say any more bullshit about requirements to play slap style! I
guarantee you, you will never loose a gig because you don't play slap! There
are a thousand other reasons to loose a gig!

KK

Aaron Turner

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

RHS Linux User (bill...@raptor.cqi.com) wrote:
: Peavey

Every played a Peavey Palladium? - they are very nice


Ian Hunter

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

I don't know what all the fuss is about. Jeff berlin has hit the nail
right on the head! His comments are so on the money...anyone who would
spend thousands on "rock" lessons should give their head a shake! I
learned Rock and Roll the proper way...I got a bunch of albums and learned
them note for note! Saved thousands of dollars.
His comments on slapping tapping fretless etc...have been taken so out of
context...they're just techniques, and should only be used where
applicable. Once again, why spend money on that when there are so many
albums to listen to when learning that. Any money spent on education
should be toward theory, ear training, transcription...etc....that's what I
did.
I don't get upset when Jeff says things like "don't slap, tap or play
fretless" because I know where he's coming from. I kind of wish he'd say
"unless where applicable"...for example, his opener on 5G. I play fretless
because that's what is CALLED for. Other than that, as Frank Zappa teaches
us..."Shut up and play yer guitar!"
--
Ian

http://www.compusmart.ab.ca/paragon
That which doesn't kill the first time will come around for a second
attempt.....please reload.

RHS Linux User

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

Really? Who makes it?
.
.
.
.
(All in good humor, folks)

Aaron Turner (ag...@york.ac.uk) wrote:


: RHS Linux User (bill...@raptor.cqi.com) wrote:
: : Peavey

: Every played a Peavey Palladium? - they are very nice


--
==================================================
Bill Merkel
bill...@cqi.com
http://www.cqi.com/~billybob/
==================================================

Aaron Turner

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

RHS Linux User (bill...@raptor.cqi.com) wrote:
: Really? Who makes it?

Er.. peavey.. I played one in a shop once, and it was a nice bass. Not all
peavey stuff is necessarily rubbish.

Aaron Turner

James Martin

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

Dave <val...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>Jeff Berlin old articles in Guitar Player magazine included examples. He
>likely saw a niche in the market and went for it.

I know. I leaned part of Bach's C minor prelude from one of his old GP
articles. It was great. I used to really like him back then. I looked
forward to his stuff. I even bought one of his albums (yeah, as in
petrolium based). But it seems like he's been on the same rant for he
last several years (in BP).

james

James Martin

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

>Aidan (ahu...@c-s-k.de) wrote:
>Slap is fun to do, but much over used. Even in funky music the groove
>should be the thing. A (sadly deceased) bassist I knew could slap

Agreed on both counts. I like to slap, but I don't do it in every
setting. In the last band I played in, I didn't do it at all. I practice
it to keep it up, and I really enjoy it. I think my slap has groove and
isn't just a lot of fancy technique. I've seen players who take that
approach and wear themselves out playing notes that nobody else can hear
or needs to hear. It has to work with whatever groove is happening.

Bad playing is bad playing. I hate to see a valid approach knocked
because some players don't know how to use it well.

james


James Martin

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

"Aidan" <ahu...@c-s-k.de> writes:
>As Dave once pointed out slap bass is a groove thing (or should be) and it
>works as part of the goove. It is part of the Bass players technique
>repotoire and needs to be learned. But players with a lot of other things to
>lean (which is most of us) shouldn't waste time turning a groove thing into
>a solo thing or "the only thing" when they could be improving their muting,
>their timing, their ear or their harmony.

Amen. Let's have this posted in music stores across the country.

james

James Martin

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

bill...@raptor.cqi.com (RHS Linux User) writes:
>All I have to say about Jeff Berlin can be summed up by
>his personally endorsed product lines....

> Crate
> Peavey

I'm certainly not one of Berlin's fans, but this (while funny) is unfair
criticism. He gets a great sound no matter what he's playing, and I heard
that the Peavey he endorsed was not a bad bass at all (though I, in
general, don't care for their basses).

Has Crate's quality come up in the last few years, or is he just cashing
in? I dunno. He has kids to feed, I guess.

james

SRF7

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

>Er.. peavey.. I played one in a shop once, and it was a nice bass. Not

>all<BR>
>peavey stuff is necessarily rubbish.<BR>

Yes.. it takes a few exceptions to prove a rule... I have peavey "vintage" all
tube guitar amp that sounds great!

Scott R. Foster | The mother ship the mother ship the mother ship's the one
sr...@aol.com | It's the blimp the blimp... Captain Beefheart


SRF7

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

On the issue of Mr. Berlin I believe Elvis Costello said it best:

"Writing about music is like dancing to architecture"

Dave

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

> I'm certainly not one of Berlin's fans, but this (while funny) is
> unfair
> criticism. He gets a great sound no matter what he's playing, and I
> heard
> that the Peavey he endorsed was not a bad bass at all (though I, in
> general, don't care for their basses).
>
> Has Crate's quality come up in the last few years, or is he just
> cashing
> in? I dunno. He has kids to feed, I guess.

IMO, the quality of Crate cabinets have increased. I have an 215 which
is about 12 years old which I use for rehearsing (i.e., leaving it in
someone's basement or studio). The newer versions are definitely
superior.

8^) Dave

>
>
> james


Dave

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

Kjartan Klaussen wrote:

> I am a professional bass player, and I have never in my carees met a
> requierment for slapping!
> I do play slap bass, but no one has ever asked me to "try do it slap
> style!"
> I do sossion work, club gigs, weddings etc. I find that in cover bands
> the
> most important thing is to be able to hold a great groove!
> A band leader will rather hire a great groove player who doesn't slap,
> than
> a player able to slap, tap and with an OK groove.

You are speaking from your own experience, but not the experience of
others. I have been asked specifically by several bands I planned on
auditioning for if I knew how to slap. It's almost taken for granted
that a bassist joining a wedding band knows how to slap, due to the
variety of music that will be played. In many other situations, the
bassist with a larger arsenal of techniques, all other factors equal,
will get the gig.

> Slap doesn't matter at all! If you do it, you will probably have use
> for it,
> but if you are learning to play bass, ask yourself if it isn't smarter
> to
> get your groove together before learning hot licks!
> Learn to slap by all means (heck, maybe your groove will open more
> from
> exposure to the slap style), but don't listen to all the videos and
> clinics
> going over and over about double thumping quacklets with both
> thumbs....
>
> Groove is king. no matter which technique!
> If you want to do it, do it, but not as an excuse for a weak groove,
> and
> please don't say any more bullshit about requirements to play slap
> style! I
> guarantee you, you will never loose a gig because you don't play slap!
> There
> are a thousand other reasons to loose a gig!

There are definitely gigs I would have lost had I not known how to slap.
Certain bands want the slap sound, and if you can't provide it, you'll
lose the gig.

8^) Dave

>

>
>
> KK


Dave

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

> So alternating two fingers is clever? It must be cool then...
> What about impressive?
>
> Well, gee... it seems the most important thing is not the technique,
> but
> the musical voice of the player. Whether you thump, play with a bow,
> or beat on the bass with an old shoe, as long as a musical idea is
> being
> expressed, who cares? If you don't care for that expression, move on.

You've brought up an interesting point, which can be viewed in several
ways. Is the musical voice of the player the most important point? If
you're writing your own music, most likely. If you're hired to play in
someone else's band, the bandleader may not give a crap about your
voice. He may be more concerned about you keeping time and playing the
parts just like he wrote them out (for originals) or just like the CD.

8^) Dave

Dave

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

Ian Hunter wrote:

I don't get upset when someone says don't do this or don't do that,
simply because it's an opinion. Jeff Berlin's career is such that he
doesn't need to slap. My musical experience is different; I have been
specifically asked to slap in certain situations. I don't give the band
or bandleader a speech about what Jeff Berlin thinks, I just do what I
am asked to do.

I disagree with not taking certain types if lessons. I have personally
taken lessons specifically for bettering my technique, mainly slapping
and muting. My playing has vastly improved because of it. I feel the
majority of lessons should be theory oriented. However, one must be able
to apply this knowledge to their instrument, and this is where the
technique aspect comes in. Playing bass (or any instrument for that
matter) is something that we are not born with; we must learn it.

8^) Dave


Doug Lawrence

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to A. R. Molloy

A. R. Molloy wrote:
>
> It should be noted that Berlin is hardly alone in his opinions. Allan
> Holdsworth, for example, has long been outspoken in his disdain for the
> style, referring to it as "the thumb crap". He has stated his ongoing
> intentions not to work with a player that does this.

That's really peculiar since he recorded two CDs with Level 42. I think
Mark King could be considered a "slap player" ;-) It's funny how
peoples' opinions change when they have a chance to play with some
talented musicians *and* make some money doing so.

Doug Lawrence

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to A. R. Molloy

Doug Lawrence

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to A. R. Molloy

A. R. Molloy

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

In article <3559D222...@home.com>, Doug Lawrence
<douglas-...@home.com> wrote:

I think "making money" is the key in your Level 42 example. The fact
remains that nowhere in Holdsworth's *TEN* studio albums does he exhibit a
musical framework for slap. Seems pretty obvious then that when given the
artistic choice, he has no intention of going there. Moreover, none of
the six bass players on these albums (Alphonse Johnson, Carmichael,
Berlin, Jimmy Johnson, Sverrisson, Willis) are known as slap players, per
se. So there! ;-)

Mathias Thallmayer

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

SRF7 wrote:
> On the issue of Mr. Berlin I believe Elvis Costello said it best:
> "Writing about music is like dancing to architecture"

Then, why are you in this newsgroup??

--
Mathias

icono...@erols.com

Aidan

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

Yo!,

>Amen. Let's have this posted in music stores across the country.


Remember the Gag in Wayne's World where the guitar section in the local
store has a sign reading:

No Stairway to Heaven!

hanging above it?

Aidan.

Aidan

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

ant...@lynx.edu wrote


>>Sure slapping is just a technique but it is a darn over used one. So many
>>young players think they can score extra points by leaning how to slap a
>few
>>Marcus Miller licks. This is the bass player's equivalent of guitarist
>
>I tell you what... lets all play upright bass. I listen to electric
>bass and I think "what a harsh, horrible perversion of the double bass.
>All these kids now play electric bass, and I want to grab one on those
>punks and say... 'Hey! you suck! Every time I go to a concert I
>see one of YOU guys. Your not musical... why don't you play
>a real bass?'"


I have real difficulty detecting irony in your post. Don't they teach
college boys to use smilies these days?

Aidan.

Aidan

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

A. R. Molloy wrote


>
>artistic choice, he has no intention of going there. Moreover, none of
>the six bass players on these albums (Alphonse Johnson, Carmichael,
>Berlin, Jimmy Johnson, Sverrisson, Willis) are known as slap players, per
>se.

What exactly is a "Slap" player? Is it genetic? Should there now be a
national association for the advancement of slap players, slap player bars a
slap scene? A token slap player in every band of 5 or more? Should women be
offered the chance to terminate if tests reveal their child may have a
tendency to slap.

Man ... ...

There are players, there is music and there are technquies for playing it.
The question is does the technique contribute to the creation of music or is
it demonstrated for its own sake.

Jeff Berlin's point, I assume, is to do with balance in the education and
development of players. This is a way different issue to the "Slap =
Good/Bad music" catagory mistake that this arguement is developing into.

Aidan.

Dave

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

Doug Lawrence wrote:

> A. R. Molloy wrote:
> >
> > It should be noted that Berlin is hardly alone in his opinions.
> Allan
> > Holdsworth, for example, has long been outspoken in his disdain for
> the
> > style, referring to it as "the thumb crap". He has stated his
> ongoing
> > intentions not to work with a player that does this.
>
> That's really peculiar since he recorded two CDs with Level 42. I
> think
> Mark King could be considered a "slap player" ;-) It's funny how
> peoples' opinions change when they have a chance to play with some
> talented musicians *and* make some money doing so.

He also played on a Stanley Clarke album a while back.

8^) Dave

Dave

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

RHS Linux User wrote:

> All I have to say about Jeff Berlin can be summed up by
> his personally endorsed product lines....
>
> Crate
> Peavey
>

> 'nuff said.

You should have included a dissertation on his live playing. It took
fifteen years before I saw another musician who gave the chills I got
when I saw Berlin.

'nuff said

8^) Dave

>
>
> Bill
>
> =================================================


RHS Linux User

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May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

Aaron Turner (ag...@york.ac.uk) wrote:

: RHS Linux User (bill...@raptor.cqi.com) wrote:
: : Really? Who makes it?

: Er.. peavey.. I played one in a shop once, and it was a nice bass. Not all
: peavey stuff is necessarily rubbish.

Um...that was a joke, son...

RHS Linux User

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

SRF7 (sr...@aol.com) wrote:
: On the issue of Mr. Berlin I believe Elvis Costello said it best:

: "Writing about music is like dancing to architecture"

Actually, I think that was Thelonious Monk who said...

"Writing about jazz is like dancing about architecture"

Though I think Elvis has some interesting things to say as well.

RHS Linux User

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

: > All I have to say about Jeff Berlin can be summed up by

: > his personally endorsed product lines....
: >
: > Crate
: > Peavey
: >
: > 'nuff said.

: You should have included a dissertation on his live playing. It took
: fifteen years before I saw another musician who gave the chills I got
: when I saw Berlin.

: 'nuff said

And he's no doubt wearing the same clothes and still getting the same
cheesy porno-star haircut as he did back then...

To your point, though. I think I feel the same after seeing Victor
Wooten's solo show last fall.

Is there more?


: > =================================================


--

James Martin

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

"Aidan" <ahu...@c-s-k.de> writes:

>Jeff Berlin's point, I assume, is to do with balance in the education and
>development of players. This is a way different issue to the "Slap =
>Good/Bad music" catagory mistake that this arguement is developing into.

No, he hasn't been nearly so even handed. I don't have my magazines
handy, so I can't quote directly. But Berlin slamed taking classes in
slap (and basically any other rock technique) assuming that anyone worth
their weight in salt could learn those things on their own. Education, in
his opinion should be reserved for theory, reading, ear training, etc. If
you pay anyone money to learn some concept or technique that Mr. B doesn't
approve of, then you're just wasting your time and money.

james


Don "Mango" Pancoe

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

>And he's no doubt wearing the same clothes and still getting the same
>cheesy porno-star haircut as he did back then...


And what the hell does THIS have to do with Jeff Berlin's, or anyone else's
bass playing?!?!?!

-- Mango --

Aidan

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

James Martin wrote

>>Jeff Berlin's point, I assume, is to do with balance in the education and
>>development of players. This is a way different issue to the "Slap =
>>Good/Bad music" catagory mistake that this arguement is developing into.
>
>No, he hasn't been nearly so even handed. I don't have my magazines
>handy, so I can't quote directly. But Berlin slamed taking classes in
>slap (and basically any other rock technique) assuming that anyone worth
>their weight in salt could learn those things on their own. Education, in
>his opinion should be reserved for theory, reading, ear training, etc.

Errrmmm? Isn't he right then?

Aidan.

Skip Elliott Bowman

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

Aidan <ahu...@c-s-k.de> wrote:
: What exactly is a "Slap" player? Is it genetic? Should there now be a

: national association for the advancement of slap players, slap player bars a
: slap scene? A token slap player in every band of 5 or more? Should women be
: offered the chance to terminate if tests reveal their child may have a
: tendency to slap.

ROTFL!! What would that be, the NAASP? Better copyright the name quick...

And that's the way it is, Liz,
Skip "El Fumador"

spam...@teleport.com
Skip Elliott Bowman, Music & Travel
replace "spamisbad" to "skipster" to reply

"You can't have everything. Where would you put it?"
Steven Wright

SRF7

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

>> On the issue of Mr. Berlin I believe Elvis Costello said it best:<BR>
>> "Writing about music is like dancing to architecture"<BR>
><BR>
>Then, why are you in this newsgroup??<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
>Mathias<BR>
<BR>
To watch you dance monkey boy!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

SRF7

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

>Actually, I think that was Thelonious Monk who said...<BR>
><BR>
>"Writing about jazz is like dancing about architecture"<BR>
><BR>
>Though I think Elvis has some interesting things to say as well.<BR>
><BR>

>Bill Merkel<BR>
>bill...@cqi.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Could well be.. I heard the Elvis quote some years ago in an interview when the
subject of poor editorial reviews of his latest album was brought up... if your
recollection is correct i suppose he was paraphrasing... in any event, he did
say... and it makes a lot of sense in either version.

SRF7

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

>I have real difficulty detecting irony in your post. Don't they teach<BR>
>college boys to use smilies these days?<BR>
><BR>
>Aidan.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Nope... they are too busy downloading porn from the internet<BR>

Mathias Thallmayer

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

SRF7 wrote:
> >> On the issue of Mr. Berlin I believe Elvis Costello said it best:<BR>
> >> "Writing about music is like dancing to architecture"<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Then, why are you in this newsgroup??<BR>
>
> To watch you dance monkey boy!<BR>

I dance because we monkey-boys kicked your
Lectroid ass! Go back to your own dimension.

--
Mathias

icono...@erols.com

James Martin

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

I said:
>>No, he hasn't been nearly so even handed. I don't have my magazines
>>handy, so I can't quote directly. But Berlin slamed taking classes in
>>slap (and basically any other rock technique) assuming that anyone worth
>>their weight in salt could learn those things on their own. Education, in
>>his opinion should be reserved for theory, reading, ear training, etc.

Aidan replied:


>Errrmmm? Isn't he right then?

Me again:
Not entirely, IMHO. I learned how to slap on my own, but I've picked up
some valuable ideas from videos and articles. What I'm saying is that it
needn't be demonized as a subject matter (nor should any usefull
technique).

He's right that education can be valuable, but his suggestion is than no
one would benefit from anything other than the sort of education he
reccomends (and profits from). I don't think that's true. Slap isn't
simplistic. Like anything else, you can learn it on your own (books,
magazine articles, friends, the web, CDs) or you can try to find a teacher
or an educational program to help you.

If someone wants to lean slap, why shouldn't they take classes (or private
instruction) in how to do that?

Note that I'm not advocating one should only learn slap. In fact, when
I've taught lessons, I've always made my students learn fundamentals
before we ever moved on to specialized techniques. They had to have their
scales under their fingers, at the very least, before I'd start showing
them techniques (other than how to fret and that sort of thing). And even
then you've got a lot of techniques to cover before you get to slap
(hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, vibrato, muting) or slap's not going to be
of much use.

To be honest, what bugs me is not so much what he has to say but that he's
been saying it for the past two years without much variety. If he's a
music educator, then I'd like it better (and I think it would be more
consitent with his own philosophy) if he would spend some of the space in
his articles *teaching* something. Anyone whose read two issues of Bass
Player is familiar with his opinions on the value of reading and of formal
education. How 'bout including a chart? Some music? A transcriptioin of
one of his own lines? Anything at all? See the source of my frustration
with the man?

Asside from his attitude, I find him an incredibly talented player.

>Aidan.

james


Dave

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

Skip Elliott Bowman wrote:

> Aidan <ahu...@c-s-k.de> wrote:
> : What exactly is a "Slap" player? Is it genetic? Should there now be
> a
> : national association for the advancement of slap players, slap
> player bars a
> : slap scene? A token slap player in every band of 5 or more? Should
> women be
> : offered the chance to terminate if tests reveal their child may have
> a
> : tendency to slap.
>
> ROTFL!! What would that be, the NAASP? Better copyright the name
> quick...
>
> And that's the way it is, Liz,
> Skip "El Fumador"

I see a 12 step program coming.....

8^) Dave


Dave

unread,
May 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/14/98
to

> And he's no doubt wearing the same clothes and still getting the same
> cheesy porno-star haircut as he did back then...
>
> To your point, though. I think I feel the same after seeing Victor
> Wooten's solo show last fall.
>
> Is there more?
>
> Bill Merkel

Actually yes. Victor Wooten was exactly the one who broke my 15 year
chill spell. However, these two are apples and oranges, and to compare
their playing overall is pointless. BTW, Steve Morse is the only other
musician besides Wooten and Berlin that makes me tingly.
Ooooooooooooo........

8^) Dave


James Martin

unread,
May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98
to

<html>
<body>
<h2><b><blink>Hey Scott</blink></b>think you could loose the HTML
tags?</h2>
</body>
</html>

:)

james

z o i n k s

unread,
May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98
to

the funny thing is:
Nobody has ever heard of Jeff Berlin; except for other musicians......
hmmm

--
"Trying is the first step towards failure"
Homer Simpson

RHS Linux User

unread,
May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98
to

Don \"Mango\" Pancoe (pan...@netaxs.com) wrote:

: >And he's no doubt wearing the same clothes and still getting the same


: >cheesy porno-star haircut as he did back then...


: And what the hell does THIS have to do with Jeff Berlin's, or anyone else's
: bass playing?!?!?!

: -- Mango --

Nothing. It has to do with my sense of humor, and, evidently,
not yours. That's all.

Aidan

unread,
May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98
to

>cheesy porno-star haircut

You have to admit that it was a good line.

By the way is the Diesel clothing "porno" add shown in the USA?

Aidan.

Dave

unread,
May 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/15/98
to

z o i n k s wrote:

> the funny thing is:
> Nobody has ever heard of Jeff Berlin; except for other musicians......
>
> hmmm

What's this supposed to mean? Walk down a street and randomly ask people
if they've heard of Jaco, Mingus, Anthony Jackson, Billy Sheehan, Stu
Hamm, Victor Wooten, etc.........

Hmmmmmmmm....................

8^) Dave

Art van Delay

unread,
May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98
to

In defense of Jeff Berlin. Though his presentation borders on "shock"
journalism, the points he tries to make are valid. All Jeff Berlin is
trying to say, and has been saying for years, is that, functional
note-reading and chart reading, relevant theory and ear training and its
applications to a real gig situation, and creating and holding down a
steady groove, should all take priority over virtuoso techniques such as
slapping, tapping, chording,etc. I think most pros would be in agreement
with the above statement. However, Jeff Berlin can get pretty obnoxious
sometimes, and I think he does so intentionally. If he wasn't so
controversial, no one would pay attention to him. Hell, look at the
response any bass newsgroup thread gets when Jeff Berlin is mentioned.
His columns get us thinking, arguing, and creating useful dialogue.
Whether we agree with him or not, he's got us thinking about his core
concepts, and that, my friends , is the ultimate goal of a teacher and
writer.

Matthew Ivaliotes

unread,
May 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/16/98
to

Rhei...@webtv.net (Art van Delay) writes:

>His columns get us thinking, arguing, and creating useful dialogue.

I'm not sure how useful some of it is.

>Whether we agree with him or not, he's got us thinking about his core
>concepts, and that, my friends , is the ultimate goal of a teacher and
>writer.

So be it. But if that's the only way he knows how to achieve his goal,
I'd still say it calls into question his teaching and writing skill. I
think he's pretty much beaten the same horse until it is dead, decaying,
and smelly. We get the idea, Jeff. Now please mellow out and start
conveying *something*, *anything* else of value than that same old
crusade. I agree with his basic point, but am sick of his constant
harping on it in a rather abrasive fashion.

Matt I.

z o i n k s

unread,
May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
to

It is a statement devoid of any thought. hehehe.
It isn't supposed to mean anything; other than some observational insight as
to the whole relativity of the somewhat nonsensical responses that Jeff
Berlin induces in people. Which I must say; I do enjoy reading other bassits
opinions about a man who I feel is very much motivationally optimistic.
albeit; we all have the tools to make it happen. Who is gonna shit or get
off the toilet.....at the very least he makes people read and/or think
and yes nobody ever knows who the heck the bass player is.....
except for Gene Simmons :-)

ant...@lynx.edu

unread,
May 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/17/98
to

>
> Re: Open Letter To Jeff Berlin


>
> From: Dave <val...@ix.netcom.com>
> Reply to: Dave
>
>What's this supposed to mean? Walk down a street and randomly ask people
>if they've heard of Jaco, Mingus, Anthony Jackson, Billy Sheehan, Stu
>Hamm, Victor Wooten, etc.........
>
>Hmmmmmmmm....................
>
>8^) Dave
>

I don't think that would be a fair sampling... try asking
music fans. You really couldn't consider yourself a jazz
fan if you haven't heard of Jaco and Mingus. I'm sure a
lot of jazz followers have heard of Bella Fleck; and
there are tons of rock fans who have heard of Mr Big.
With this in mind, the best thing you can say for Berlin is that he
has subbed for well known bands.

Of the guys mentioned, notice how Berlin and Jackson are
always bitch'n feeble about something (and Hamm just keeps
making obscure records... actually his name fits him well.)
What kills me about Berlin is that almost every article
he's written in the past several years is exactly the same.
You could read any one of his recent columns and you've basically
covered everything he has had to say in the last four years.

anthony


RHS Linux User

unread,
May 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/18/98
to

Aidan (ahu...@c-s-k.de) wrote:
: >cheesy porno-star haircut

: You have to admit that it was a good line.

: By the way is the Diesel clothing "porno" add shown in the USA?

: Aidan.

Does anyone know how Jeff pronounces his last name? I'm assuming
berLIN, but maybe it's BERlin, like the town in Connecticut...

biLL


Hillie

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May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

In article <355BD5D0...@ix.netcom.com>, o...@ix.netcom.com says...

>
>the funny thing is:
>Nobody has ever heard of Jeff Berlin; except for other musicians......
>hmmm
>
Indeed! I only know Jeff Berlin of his Bassplayer colums and the stuff he says
about getting theoretical music education and not technique education... I
think it sucks (I don't know if he does, although he looks like a porn-star
:)) ). Everyone should decide for themselves what's the best way to learn to
play bass, 'cause that's what it's all about. Not about knowing a zillion
scales. It's very handy to know that stuff, even if you play metal/hardcore
(which I do), so I think I'll buy some theory book one of these days.
I learned how to play bass and to read music from a book and it worked for me,
but it may not work for everyone.

Hillie


Brian Rost

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Hillie wrote:
>
> In article <355BD5D0...@ix.netcom.com>, o...@ix.netcom.com says...
> >
> >the funny thing is:
> >Nobody has ever heard of Jeff Berlin; except for other musicians......
> >hmmm
> >
> Indeed! I only know Jeff Berlin of his Bassplayer colums and the stuff he says
> about getting theoretical music education and not technique education... I
> think it sucks (I don't know if he does, although he looks like a porn-star
> :)) ).

The reason "noone has heard of" Jeff Berlin is that he rose to fame in
the late 70s, playing fusion and jazz with people like Bill Bruford and
Dave Liebman. I saw him play with Bruford and he was pretty darn
phenomenal, and that was 20 years ago. He's probably a little bit better
now <grin>.

The style of music he's known for is out of style these days, so he's
been under-recorded for the last ten years. The last stuff he recorded
that would have been close to "mainstream" would be his stuff with Allan
Holdsworth and Yes in the 80s.

Oh yeah, most bass players, good ones or not, are known only by other
musicians unless they also happen to be singers (Sting, Geddy,
McCartney, etc.). It just goes with the territory.

> Everyone should decide for themselves what's the best way to learn to
> play bass, 'cause that's what it's all about.

First decision is whether you want to play music on your bass or not
<grin>

--

Brian Rost
3Com Corp.
978-264-1550
br...@synnet.com

*********************************************************************

Monkey Island: a dance band for the new millenium

*********************************************************************

Hillie

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

In article <356333...@synnet.com>, br...@synnet.com says...
>
>Hillie wrote:

>> Everyone should decide for themselves what's the best way to learn to
>> play bass, 'cause that's what it's all about.
>
>First decision is whether you want to play music on your bass or not
><grin>
>

define "music" :-)

Hillie


Steve Daly

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

James Martin wrote:
>
> No, he hasn't been nearly so even handed. I don't have my magazines
> handy, so I can't quote directly. But Berlin slamed taking classes in
> slap (and basically any other rock technique) assuming that anyone worth
> their weight in salt could learn those things on their own. Education, in
> his opinion should be reserved for theory, reading, ear training, etc. If
> you pay anyone money to learn some concept or technique that Mr. B doesn't
> approve of, then you're just wasting your time and money.
>
> james

I haven't read the article that started this thread, but it sounds
similar to an article by Berlin which I read several months ago. In it he
criticizes the practice of paying a teacher to teach specialized playing
techniques (he mentions tapping, I suppose he's got Les Claypool or
Michael Manring in mind?). He asserts that these styles do not have any
application outside of the bass player's own composition. In other words,
these techniques are not very applicable to a bass player who wants to
get work as a studio musician or a hired gun.

While I agree with Berlin in these regards, I do not think that slap
technique fits into the same category. In both the jazz idiom and in
popular music, slap is extremely relevant. It conveys a certain feel that
straight finger picking can not accomplish.

Steve

Dave

unread,
May 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/22/98
to

> Indeed! I only know Jeff Berlin of his Bassplayer colums and the stuff
> he says
> about getting theoretical music education and not technique
> education... I
> think it sucks (I don't know if he does, although he looks like a
> porn-star
> :)) ). Everyone should decide for themselves what's the best way to
> learn to

> play bass, 'cause that's what it's all about. Not about knowing a
> zillion
> scales. It's very handy to know that stuff, even if you play
> metal/hardcore
> (which I do), so I think I'll buy some theory book one of these days.
> I learned how to play bass and to read music from a book and it worked
> for me,
> but it may not work for everyone.
>
> Hillie

"Everybody should decide what's the best way to learn bass" is not an
insightful statement. How does one who does not know how to play bass
determine the best method for learning bass?

Knowing theory is not just handy, it gives insight into music, which is
IMO what it's all about.

8^) Dave

Hillie

unread,
May 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/23/98
to

In article <35660AD4...@ix.netcom.com>, val...@ix.netcom.com says...

>
>"Everybody should decide what's the best way to learn bass" is not an
>insightful statement. How does one who does not know how to play bass
>determine the best method for learning bass?

try stuff... if he does something, like learning from a book, and thinks he
doesn't improve enough... well.. then he should try another way, such as a
teacher.

>
>Knowing theory is not just handy, it gives insight into music, which is
>IMO what it's all about.
>

sure... but I'm no jazz player (or other "hard/complex" musical style), so for
me it's not necessary to know (a lot of) theory. I'd like to know more about
scales and that stuff to be able to create "better sounding" riffs faster...
now it's just trying and learning by trial and error. But of course I respect
your opinion about theory, just as long as you realize there are a thousand
ways to get the same result (I don't think the guys in Manson's band know a lot
of theory, but they're big sellers! :-))))

greetz and of course good luck studying your theory :),
Hillie


citawi...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 29, 2017, 12:59:37 PM4/29/17
to
Hi Skip. I only found out yesterday about Victor's open letter to me. I'll write a response next week and title it "An Open Answer to Victor Wooten".

Meanwhile, thank you for writing to me to ask your question about my opinion about slap,

I have no negative opinions about slap whatsoever and (as the post therapy Jeff :) I never said anything negative about a playing style that so many players seem to love.

However, I do feel that the academic teaching of slap is both a musical and a financial error to invest either time or money to learn.

If you notice the history of all slappers, 100% of them are all self taught in the approach. Victor as well. Teaching a playing approach by a teacher that even the teachers learned on their own via time and practice is a poor decisiin in my opinion. Not everything requires academic teaching. Only musical conten does. In fact, teaching styles and techniques interferes with the vastly more effective self taught approach where experimentatiin and trial and error are THE fundamental requirements in developing a unique approach to bass playing, slap being among them.

I have a lot more to share about this, but for now, I hope that this was a satisfactory answer for you. To end, please remember my little mantra: Learning is different than playing. Cheers from Jeff
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