Hamer 12-string basses?!
Ern Chang
Got myself Ear Candy by King's X over the weekend and was fascinated by a
photo of Doug Pinnick and his 12-string Hamer bass. Anyone in here knows
how these things are tuned (could it be C E A D G C with octaves)? Or
played, for that matter? Would it be anything like playing a 12-string
guitar (or a 6-string bass)?
Inquiring minds want to know. TIA!
--
Ern Chang
med2...@nus.sg
David Fung
> Got myself Ear Candy by King's X over the weekend and was fascinated by a
> photo of Doug Pinnick and his 12-string Hamer bass. Anyone in here knows
> how these things are tuned (could it be C E A D G C with octaves)? Or
> played, for that matter? Would it be anything like playing a 12-string
> guitar (or a 6-string bass)?
>
I haven't gotten Ear Candy yet, but the "traditional" 12-string bass
tuning is actually in triples, not doubles. Then it's like a 4-string
bass with one fundamental string (E,A,D,G) and each fundamental has two
octave strings.
An 8-string bass has a big sound - a 12-string is enormous because the
octaves can be slightly detuned from each other for a thicker sound.
There's also no rule about the tunings. Usually both octave strings run
over the same bridgepiece so it prefers unison tuning, but you can do
things like drop one of the octaves to the fifth and get rid of the guitar
player...
There are also 12-string basses that are like a 6-string in octaves as
well, but Hamers are 4*3.
David Fung
Alex Basson
In article <4q6d1j$i...@nuscc.nus.sg>, Ern Chang <med2...@leonis.nus.sg> wrote:
>Got myself Ear Candy by King's X over the weekend and was fascinated by a
>photo of Doug Pinnick and his 12-string Hamer bass. Anyone in here knows
>how these things are tuned (could it be C E A D G C with octaves)? Or
>played, for that matter? Would it be anything like playing a 12-string
>guitar (or a 6-string bass)?
>
It's like a 12-string guitar in that there are octave strings, but it's
really a four-string bass with *two* octave strings instead of one.
So instead of two strings per note, it's actually three. Jeff Ament also
uses them (most notably on "Jeremy").
--
Alex Basson Standard disclaimers apply.
apba...@midway.uchicago.edu I don't think for the U of C,
University of Chicago I just study here.
Port'o'Chael
In article <dfung-18069...@dfung.vip.best.com>, df...@best.com
(David Fung) wrote:
+In article <4q6d1j$i...@nuscc.nus.sg>, med2...@leonis.nus.sg (Ern Chang) wrote:
+
+> Got myself Ear Candy by King's X over the weekend and was fascinated by a
+> photo of Doug Pinnick and his 12-string Hamer bass. Anyone in here knows
+> how these things are tuned (could it be C E A D G C with octaves)? Or
+> played, for that matter? Would it be anything like playing a 12-string
+> guitar (or a 6-string bass)?
+There are also 12-string basses that are like a 6-string in octaves as
+well, but Hamers are 4*3.
The unfortunate part is that in concert, that Hamer 12-string
sounded bloody terrible! He likes his amp tone set up so
that it'll rumble you out of your seat, and rattle your brains
out simultaneously. The end result is that there are lots of
highs and lows, and no midrange; you couldn't tell what note
he was playing if your life depended on it, even though he was
so loud he was shaking the floor. Very bad when Ty Tabor took
a lead, because there was no harmonic foundation for him to
play off of.
---Michael...
_________________________________ ________________________________
_________________________________BGSC________________________________
--------------I speak only for myself in this medium --------------
FunkyBass
Ern Chang wrote:
>
> Got myself Ear Candy by King's X over the weekend and was fascinated by a
>
Hi there:
Basses that have double the number of strings that a regular
bass has have a (much) lighter guage string next to each regular guage
string tuned an octave up. The tuning on this bass (normally) would be
BB-EE-AA-DD-GG-CC. Who can say what it actually is if he does alternate
tunings.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~<(================================)>~~~~~~~~~~~
Kevin Kresge - Funk Musician Internet E-Mail:
Studio/Performance Musician kkr...@web.iis-centpa.com
Member: Pro Funk Movement FunkBass...@prodigy.com
"Let The Funk Live On Forever"
~~~~~~~~~~~<(================================)>~~~~~~~~~~~
Harrison Calhoun
In article 20...@this.address.com, FunkyBass <ign...@this.address.com> writes:
> Ern Chang wrote:
> >
> > Got myself Ear Candy by King's X over the weekend and was fascinated by a
> > photo of Doug Pinnick and his 12-string Hamer bass. Anyone in here knows
> > how these things are tuned (could it be C E A D G C with octaves)? Or
> > played, for that matter? Would it be anything like playing a 12-string
> > guitar (or a 6-string bass)?
> >
> > Inquiring minds want to know. TIA!
>
>
> Basses that have double the number of strings that a regular
> bass has have a (much) lighter guage string next to each regular guage
> string tuned an octave up. The tuning on this bass (normally) would be
> BB-EE-AA-DD-GG-CC. Who can say what it actually is if he does alternate
> tunings.
>
> --
The Hamer 12 string basses are strung like this:
eeE aaA ddD ggG
Doug uses a lot of drop D tunings so one of his 12s is tuned:
ddD aaA ddD ggG
You really have to do what he and Tom Petersson (Cheap Trick) do to get a
totally amazing sound from the instrument. Doug splits his signal and runs
one side through an Ampeg SVT throught 8x10 cabs and the other signal goes
to either an old Fender Dual Showman or a Mesa Boogie through a 4x12. He runs
his 4 strings through this rig too and the sound is amazing (listen to "Sometime"
on Ear Candy).
The last time I saw Cheap Trick Tom was playing through some vintage Rickenbacker
amps. I think he runs a line from each of his 3 pickups into a different amp.
The result: wall of sound. Ever wonder why Cheap Trick sounded so full? There
you have it.
See ya',
H
---
---------------------------
- Harrison Calhoun
- exu...@exu.ericsson.se
- Richardson, Texas
---------------------------
David Fung
>
> The Hamer 12 string basses are strung like this:
>
> eeE aaA ddD ggG
>
> Doug uses a lot of drop D tunings so one of his 12s is tuned:
>
> ddD aaA ddD ggG
>
> You really have to do what he and Tom Petersson (Cheap Trick) do to get a
> totally amazing sound from the instrument. Doug splits his signal and runs
> one side through an Ampeg SVT throught 8x10 cabs and the other signal goes
> to either an old Fender Dual Showman or a Mesa Boogie through a 4x12. He runs
> his 4 strings through this rig too and the sound is amazing (listen to
"Sometime"
> on Ear Candy).
>
> The last time I saw Cheap Trick Tom was playing through some vintage
Rickenbacker
> amps. I think he runs a line from each of his 3 pickups into a different amp.
> The result: wall of sound. Ever wonder why Cheap Trick sounded so full? There
> you have it.
>
> See ya',
>
> H
> ---
Hey Harrison (! :)),
I'll add to this a bit. As I've probably mentioned before, I own a
12-string Hamer that previous was doing time with Cheap Trick (came with a
note of authenticity from Rick Nielsen and a pile of picks - it's the
white 12-string that Pete Comita is playing on the Chicagofest concert
from many years ago).
It looks like most of the standard 12-strings from that time, but is wired
quite differently - it basically has two completely separate, parallel
sound setups. Pickups are DiMarzio X2Ns (these are guitar pickups!).
They're mounted together in the normal spot in the middle of the body.
Each pickup separately goes to it's own volume control and a preamp with a
3 position switch. The switch has bypass, boost, and an enormous treble
boost position. Then each preamp dumps out to a separate channel of a
stereo out. There's no tone controls, no master volume. There's also a
switch that turns out the batteries with an LED power indicator that
blinks when the batteries are going dead. The switches are pretty weird -
they have locking collars on them so you can't knock them off position -
you have to lift them up to flip 'em, then a spring pulls the toggle back
down to lock in place. If you plug this bass in with a mono cord, it
makes no output at all as the preamps short out.
Really seems that the setup was designed for controlling the balance of
two amps independently.
David Fung
David Fung
In article <ra3035-1806...@saint.sps.mot.com>,
ra3...@email.sps.mot.com (Port'o'Chael) wrote:
> In article <dfung-18069...@dfung.vip.best.com>, df...@best.com
> (David Fung) wrote:
>
> +In article <4q6d1j$i...@nuscc.nus.sg>, med2...@leonis.nus.sg (Ern
Chang) wrote:
> +
> +> Got myself Ear Candy by King's X over the weekend and was fascinated by a
> +> photo of Doug Pinnick and his 12-string Hamer bass. Anyone in here knows
> +> how these things are tuned (could it be C E A D G C with octaves)? Or
> +> played, for that matter? Would it be anything like playing a 12-string
> +> guitar (or a 6-string bass)?
>
> +There are also 12-string basses that are like a 6-string in octaves as
> +well, but Hamers are 4*3.
>
> The unfortunate part is that in concert, that Hamer 12-string
> sounded bloody terrible! He likes his amp tone set up so
> that it'll rumble you out of your seat, and rattle your brains
> out simultaneously. The end result is that there are lots of
> highs and lows, and no midrange; you couldn't tell what note
> he was playing if your life depended on it, even though he was
> so loud he was shaking the floor. Very bad when Ty Tabor took
> a lead, because there was no harmonic foundation for him to
> play off of.
>
Sorry to hear that, but not suprised. Of all the active 12-string bass
players out there, I think Pinnick probably has the most processed sound -
really happening in the studio, but I never could figure out how to
actually get this sort of sound with amps and cords but no rack of EQ and
compression... You can come close with a guitar amp and bass amp, but
even then it's not the same.
David Fung
Leon Zandman
I once read in an interview with Jeff Ament (Pearl Jam), who also plays
12 string hamers, that the tuning is like a standard bass (E A D G) but
that every bass string is doubled by two guitar-type strings. These string
are both tuned one octave higher than the bass-strings. So it would be:
E e e A a a D d d G g g (which make 12 strings)
The song 'Jeremy' from Pearl Jam is played on a 12-string. You should listen
to the intro and outro of the song. What a sound !!
Greetz, Leon Zandman (l.za...@wing.rug.nl)
Ern Chang
Harrison Calhoun (exu...@exu.ericsson.se) wrote:
: The Hamer 12 string basses are strung like this:
: eeE aaA ddD ggG
Good golly! The fretboard must be terribly wide. Would I need huge
hands and fingertips to play one of these monsters? What do the string
gauges come to anyhow?
--
Ern Chang
med2...@nus.sg
Roy Smith
Em,
I have one of these pups and there are a few different ways to tune it.
The basic one is to have the top strings slightly detuned, an octave
above the bass string. That's a huge sound. One I like a lot is to
detune one of the tops by a fourth on the D and G string courses, which
gives you the bass note, a fifth, and an octave. The bottom two courses
have the big octave sound and it's not so muddy. Also very huge.
My current tuning is influenced by Kings-X and it has the E string
course detuned a whole step to match the dropped D tuning in the guitar.
Very very wide.
Other players who use these are the guy from Cheap Trick, John Paul
Jones in his new band, and Mark Egan. I wouldn't recommend using it in a
band that has a lot of members or instruments, because it's the
frequency equivalent of a double wide trailer with the flaps up! <Grin>
Roy
Tigerfolly
I've had the pleasure of playing various 12 string basses, including
custom models. Being a Kings X fan for years, I've always loved Doug's
sound, and tried to figure out ways of getting that sound, without tons of
gear.
The 12 string bass:
There are two ways you can get a 12 string, you can get it with the
bass string on top with the octave strings below, or vice versa, with the
octave strings first and the bass string below. It's really odd to look
at, and kind of wierd when you first pick one up, but it isn't very
difficult to play. It's much like a 12 string guitar, where your normal
fretting isn't affected by the extra string, though you have three strings
to fret instead of one. The neck itself is not necessarily wider than a
four string.. The Hamer basses are pretty much a standard P Bass neck. I
don't have the exact nut width, but it's not noticeable to me. Pickups are
definitely a problem with a 12 string bass, as a bass pickup would still
pickup the octave strings, and if you put a guitar pickup in, it would
pick up the bass string.. the result: bad tone.
I've had the best luck with EMG pickups. Most 12 string players use a
pick, though it's not impossible to fingerpick. Doug's 12 strings are made
by Hamer, and are a 34" scale length, with their standard Chaparral body
shape. The body is a right handed body, which ends up being upside down as
Doug is left handed. The headstock is reversed, which improves intonation,
and Doug uses Seymour Duncan pickups in his basses. I'm not positive on
the tunings of Ear Candy, but on Dogman the band would detune to E flat,
D, C#, and even down to C. Most of the songs on Ear Candy sound tuned
around D and E flat.. though you never know. Kings X isn't really a band
to mess with many alternate tunings, and Doug is not a fan of 5 or 6
string intruments.. preferring to detune a 4, 8, or 12 (all inherently
four string instruments) for lower sounds.
Amplification:
A previous posting was correct, Doug runs an SVT for the lows and
Fender Dual Showman, or Mesa Boogie Rectefier amps on the highs. Sometimes
distorted sometimes clean. Someone also commented that the bass sound was
not up to par when he/she saw them live. I have seen Kings X live a few
times now, and though the sound seems a little different from venue to
venue, I have no problem picking out Doug's lines (when not distorted of
course). The sound can be full or thin, depending on your liking of
course.. and everytime I see Doug live I go home and play with my rig for
a few hours..
If you like Doug's playing and sound, check out Galactic Cowboys. Their
first two albums were produced by Kings X's old producer Sam Taylor, and
they toured with Kings X many times.. They have three cd's out, Galactic
Cowboys, Space in Your Face, and Machine Fish.
Tiger
Harrison Calhoun
Nah, the finger board isn't much wider than a regular 4 string. The strings are
grouped rather closely. You don't really need large hands. Hamer makes a short scale
12 string also. Go to their bass home page at:
http://www.kamanmusic.com/hamer/bass.htm
and go through the links to the 12 strings.
The strings are regular .45-.100 for the bass strings and .20/.25/.30/.45 for
the octave strings.
David Fung
In article <4qdjb0$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tiger...@aol.com
(Tigerfolly) wrote:
> The 12 string bass:
> There are two ways you can get a 12 string, you can get it with the
> bass string on top with the octave strings below, or vice versa, with the
> octave strings first and the bass string below. It's really odd to look
Hamer builds 'em both ways. In theory, the octave string at the top (like
a normal 12-string guitar) would work better with a pick, and the thin
string on the bottom is better for finger playing.
> at, and kind of wierd when you first pick one up, but it isn't very
> difficult to play. It's much like a 12 string guitar, where your normal
> fretting isn't affected by the extra string, though you have three strings
> to fret instead of one. The neck itself is not necessarily wider than a
> four string.. The Hamer basses are pretty much a standard P Bass neck. I
The 12 I've got is an older model - small double cutaway model a la Les
Paul Jr. As with most of the older Hamer 12s, it has 30" scale. The neck
is not wide - between a normal 4- and 5-string but much thicker. The
triple string spacing isn't uncomfortable but the clusters are pretty
close together low on the neck. The double octaves are less noticable
than the difference in diameter between the bass string and the octaves.
> don't have the exact nut width, but it's not noticeable to me. Pickups are
> definitely a problem with a 12 string bass, as a bass pickup would still
> pickup the octave strings, and if you put a guitar pickup in, it would
> pick up the bass string.. the result: bad tone.
Most 12s have multiple pickups to deal with this problem. Tom Petersson's
original 12-string (called the Quadbass) had a normal pickup that covers
all four clusters and a second pickup that consisted of 4 separate
pickups, one per cluster. It even had a small mixing board right on the
upper body bout of the instrument. You can see pictures of this bass on
any of the earlier Cheap Trick records (especially Live at Budokan or
Heaven Tonight) or old Hamer catalogs.
>
> Amplification:
> A previous posting was correct, Doug runs an SVT for the lows and
> Fender Dual Showman, or Mesa Boogie Rectefier amps on the highs. Sometimes
> distorted sometimes clean. Someone also commented that the bass sound was
> not up to par when he/she saw them live. I have seen Kings X live a few
> times now, and though the sound seems a little different from venue to
> venue, I have no problem picking out Doug's lines (when not distorted of
> course). The sound can be full or thin, depending on your liking of
> course.. and everytime I see Doug live I go home and play with my rig for
> a few hours..
>
So what about the effects chain? Live? In the studio? Doug's sound is
really processed compared to Jeff Ament. The bass line in Jeremy sounds
pretty much like a 12-string plugged straight into the amp to me (perhaps
some compression during the song). I remember there was some info about
King's X equipment in the mags when Dogman came out, but there wasn't that
much mention of Doug's setup - mostly Ty Tabor's...
David Fung
paul cigno
I've played one here in San Jose. It's playable enough, but they sound
pretty weird. Doug Pinnick in Kings X uses a crossover to send the low
frequencies to his bass amp and the high end to a guitar head to add
some distortion. I think you have to have some grunginess in the
signal to make it sound fat. You can also listen to Cheap Trick Live
In Budokan to hear their bassist (whose name escapes me at the moment)
playing one. Bythe way, he was the guy who came up with the idea of
that instrument in the first place. The end of Ain't That A Shame has
everyone trading licks, and it sounds pretty distinctive.
Ideally, they are configured with the octave strings on the bottom if
you are a fingerstyle plaver, or on top if you use a pick.
Finally, Hamer has a home page with 12 string basses prominently
featured.
PC
apba...@midway.uchicago.edu (Alex Basson) wrote:
>In article <4q6d1j$i...@nuscc.nus.sg>, Ern Chang <med2...@leonis.nus.sg> wrote:
>>Got myself Ear Candy by King's X over the weekend and was fascinated by a
>>photo of Doug Pinnick and his 12-string Hamer bass. Anyone in here knows
>>how these things are tuned (could it be C E A D G C with octaves)? Or
>>played, for that matter? Would it be anything like playing a 12-string
>>guitar (or a 6-string bass)?
>>
>It's like a 12-string guitar in that there are octave strings, but it's
Tigerfolly
>You can also listen to Cheap Trick Live
>In Budokan to hear their bassist (whose name escapes me at the moment)
>playing one.
His name is Tom Petersson.
And the first 12 string, was actually a 10 string.
Joel Dantzig of Hamer guitars made it, and after they made sure the neck
could
handle the stress, they started work on the 12.
Check one out, they're just great!
Tiger
Jeff Talley
I thought I had seen photos in Hit Parader magazine with Tom playing a red
10-string: EE AA DDD GGG right?
Any other info on this?
Thanks,
Jeff.
Harrison Calhoun
I met Rick Nielson (sp?) once and asked him about the 10 string. Your description
of it matches what he said. They built the 10 string because they didn't think
that the neck would be able to support the tension of a 12. Then on tour in Japan,
an overzealous fan grabbed hold of Tom's bass near the nut and he was able to lift
the fan off the ground. That's when he realized that the neck would be able to
handle 2 more strings.
paul cigno
apba...@midway.uchicago.edu (Alex Basson) wrote:
>In article <4q6d1j$i...@nuscc.nus.sg>, Ern Chang <med2...@leonis.nus.sg> wrote:
>>Got myself Ear Candy by King's X over the weekend and was fascinated by a
>>photo of Doug Pinnick and his 12-string Hamer bass. Anyone in here knows
>>how these things are tuned (could it be C E A D G C with octaves)? Or
>>played, for that matter? Would it be anything like playing a 12-string
>>guitar (or a 6-string bass)?
>>
>It's like a 12-string guitar in that there are octave strings, but it's
>really a four-string bass with *two* octave strings instead of one.
>So instead of two strings per note, it's actually three. Jeff Ament also
>uses them (most notably on "Jeremy").
>--
>Alex Basson Standard disclaimers apply.
>apba...@midway.uchicago.edu I don't think for the U of C,
>University of Chicago I just study here.
You can get a better idea of what they sound like on Kings X's
"Gretchen Goes To Nebraska" CD or the old Cheap Trick's "Live At
Budokan" . Tom Peterson, their bassist came up with the idea. He does
some riffs at the end of "Ain't That A Shame". I've played one before
that keeps showing up used at local guitar shops every few months.
It's been around for years.
It plays easily enough, but a word of warning. To get that massive
sound, figure on needing a crossover with low freqs. going to the bass
amp and the high freqs. going to a another system with a grungier
sound. Your're gonna have to experiment and spend some money to make
it work. Otherwise, they sound pretty weird. One other thing, they
make them with the bass string on top for playing with a pick, or on
the botton for finger style players. I guess it matters.
PC
kevin macza
paul cigno (pci...@netgate.net) wrote:
: It plays easily enough, but a word of warning. To get that massive
: sound, figure on needing a crossover with low freqs. going to the bass
: amp and the high freqs. going to a another system with a grungier
: sound. Your're gonna have to experiment and spend some money to make
: it work. Otherwise, they sound pretty weird. One other thing, they
: make them with the bass string on top for playing with a pick, or on
: the botton for finger style players. I guess it matters.
Actually the octave strings usually are on top for a pick player.
Playing a Hamer 12-string with fingers is almost out of the question, given
the string spacing. I run my Chaparral 12 straight into my Eden rig.
Sounds really fat! A guitar amp on the top end can give that Petersson
edge, but is not necessary.
kevin