Why I hate bagpipes
Captain Infinity
who play them all the time in their parades and at funerals, deep down
hate the bagpipes. But if you asked someone, "Why do you hate the
bagpipes?" that person would be hard pressed to give you a definite
reason for their hatred.
"Oh, because they sound awful," they might say, or "They sound like
diseased cats being mangled in a rusty trash compactor." Or they may say
"Because they look like a large squid made out of plaid fabric."
Sure, it's easy enough to say, in general, that the bagpipes are an
insult to the ear and the eye, but who can really nail down the reason
why they are so dreadful?
I can.
It is the constant low-tone drone that underscores every so-called "note"
that is played on them. Sure, the actual "tunes" the bagpipes play are
aesthetically repulsive in and of themselves, but beneath it all there's
that moaning wail, that endless bass line groan. It seeps into your
ears, wrapping itself around the cochlea, anvil, and drum. It drills
into your brain and penetrates your pleasure lobes, undercutting any
enjoyment you may get from "Amazing Grace" or any other song being played
on the rest of the pipes. It resonates within your pineal gland, causing
it to release the so-called "aarrggh hormones" into your bloodstream.
Eventually you start casting about in helpless automatic reflex, looking
for a pen or pencil or icepick which you can use to stab yourself in the
ears, puncturing your eardrums and bringing glorious surcease from the
hateful, horrid noise.
So the next time you are subjected to bagpipes, bring your attention to
the groan beneath the notes. Grit your teeth and focus on it. It won't
make the experience any more pleasant, but it will give you something to
concentrate on while waiting for your ears to stop bleeding.
**
Captain Infinity
..."I always fall asleep to the sound of my own screams." --Butters
Chakaal The Indifferent
ignorance about bagpipes, which appear to be boundless. Yeah, sure
you can bash the Great Highland Pipes for the constant drone, but no
you said "bagpipes" as if all bagpipes do this.
They don't all do this. The Irish Uilleann Pipes, for example,
have drones you can turn on or off, and play chords on.
That said, your opinion on the drones of the GHB pipes are your
own business and you're certainly free to air your opinion. If
everyone felt like you did there would be no pipe players and no
GHB pipes left in the world. Since that is obvious, i suspect you're
just trolling and trying to tick off the pipers in this group. Since
that is not proven, I've responded to your post in an only slightly
less abusive tone than the one you directed at the GHBs.
Finally, lest you forget the original point of the GHB, that instrument
is a War Pipe, designed to be used outside, to be very loud. Not
to be used indoors the way the Uilleann Pipes are (you must be seated
to play the Uilleann Pipes, or you can't stop the chanter to get a second
octave. That's right, a second octave with accidentals!) but to
be hearable at great distances. A ceremonial and martial instrument,
not intended for light entertainment.
Nobody is forcing you to listen to pipes, but I do suggest you do a
little checking next time you decide to flame something. Had you
done any research at all before making this post you'd have known
to specify *which* bagpipe you so loathe.
--Chak
In article <1i5eeuk3be1nigse0...@4ax.com>,
JSLOANPR
>insult to the ear and the eye, but who can really nail down the reason
>why they are so dreadful?
>
>I can.
>
>It is the constant low-tone drone that underscores every so-called "note
Thanks Captain,
Now I understand why 200 people gave us a standing ovation after our last set
Sat morning and some followed us into the parking lot to say thanks.
"Hear'" I thought they were enjoying the music while actualy they were being
tortured by the drones and just followed us outside to thank us for stopping!.
Live and learn.
Jim
winterdyke
that ilk. Still, I did enjoyed your response - doubt if the twat understood,
it though.
"Chakaal The Indifferent" <cha...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ac7g70$kk9$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Paul Hinson
Paul Hinson
Hugh Jass
"Chakaal The Indifferent" <cha...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ac7g70$kk9$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> ignorance about bagpipes, which appear to be boundless. Yeah, sure
> you can bash the Great Highland Pipes for the constant drone, but no
> you said "bagpipes" as if all bagpipes do this.
>
> They don't all do this. The Irish Uilleann Pipes, for example,
> have drones you can turn on or off, and play chords on.
That would be a good trick, playing chords on U.P drones :-)
methinks you are perhaps thinking of regulators?
I don't personnaly agree with the captains feelings on bagpipes but he's
allowed to have/voice them. The world would be a strange old place if
everyone's taste in music was identical.
I personnaly quite like the sound of most cane reed instruments particularly
U.Pipes BUT hate the sound of bombards. That shill piercing sound goes
right through me, sets my teeth on edge.. I suppose those views will p*ss
off several million Frenchmen <ok ask me if I'm worried>
Hugh.
Creak
Im from Canada. And we piss em off all the Time
Its OUR hobby. hahahhaaa
a l l y
just for the fun of it?
This is what we used to call a wooden spoon merchant.
Today we call him a troll.
<.....sigh.......>
Ally
Ron Hardin
There's the Lute, pretty much drowned out by the orchestra, and the
Bagpipe, which pretty much drowns out everything, but they come and
go in a pleasant way and in the same key.
--
Ron Hardin
rhha...@mindspring.com
On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
Peter Schug
al...@caneseats.plusTAKETHEDOGOUT.com wrote on 5/19/02 5:53 PM:
Personally I thought he was kidding, and not trolling.
When I was a kid I loved the sound of bagpipes, and sometimes there were
pipers at some of the soccer games my father and I went to. I never could
figure out why he always said, "Oh no... They've got bagpipes."
I always loved the sound and the intricate little curliques that are woven
into the melody. Now, with more knowlege I call them ornaments, but whatever
you call them they make a pretty filligre on which to lay the tune.
I play the fiddle, so I'm pretty sure I'm not tone deaf. My father is no
longer around, so I can't ask him, but I am really curious about why some
people really seem to dislike bagpipes.
I have heard pipers I didn't care for, but by and large I like pipes. (But I
love my fiddle!)
Pete
--
Check out my fiddle building web site
http://home.att.net/~PeteSchug/
Updated July 23, 2000
WWS
I don't know, he nailed the heart of bagpipery pretty good there.
I think that idea of a constant groan is a great insight. It's just
that some people like me like that. It kind of reflects my outlook
on life.
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
"Never presume for whom the net trolls; it trolls for thee." - Heck
Chakaal The Indifferent
hasn't got any yet. Foo. Once I have to discuss the things
with my teacher I'm sure I'll get it right.
I agree with you on bombards, they are only bearable at a good
distance because they actually hurt.
--chak
In article <ac8sff$bd2$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
Chakaal The Indifferent
that not all bagpipes are GHBs. If he'd said nasty things about GHBs
specifically, re: drones and such, I wouldn't have had a thing to say
to him.
After all - he's allowed to hate the GHB drones.
--chak
Matt Buckley
"Chakaal The Indifferent" <cha...@panix.com> wrote:
> I agree with you on bombards, they are only bearable at a good
> distance because they actually hurt.
The bombarde is quite possibly the most appropriately named instrument in
the history of music <g>
Cheers. Matt
Colin Matheson
>I am really curious about why some
>people really seem to dislike bagpipes.
At a guess, I'd say it's because they're often not played very well -
or at least, not tuned properly. As they're so loud, the result can
be excruciating. Also, I've complained before about the fact that the
big pipes are getting sharper and sharper. They were heading for the
concert B natural scale last time I checked - or E, depending on how
you see it. Anyway, way past Bb and Eb. The result to my ears is
that the relative volume of the notes is skewed - the "high A" (aka
"nearly B") is almost supersonic now. The pipers probably say it's
the drummers' fault - the pipe band drums are painfully high-pitched
these days.
That said, in the right hands the pipes sound fantastic, and the pipe
bands probably still have the effect they're supposed to have - I've
heard it said that "you just want to hit someone after hearing them".
Colin
--
Colin Matheson | Language Technology Group
Phone: +44 131 650 4656 (fax 4587) | University of Edinburgh
Email: Colin.M...@ed.ac.uk | 2 Buccleuch Place
WWW: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~colin | Edinburgh EH8 9LW
rafe
> PDQ Bach had a Concerto for Lute and Bagpipe that I liked very much.
> There's the Lute, pretty much drowned out by the orchestra, and the
> Bagpipe, which pretty much drowns out everything, but they come and
> go in a pleasant way and in the same key.
Don't forget the Pervertimento for Bagpipe, Bicycle and Balloon
Lloyd Bogart
jslo...@aol.com (JSLOANPR) wrote:
Yes, folks are often very appreciative when my group stops playing,
as well. ;-) During a parade yesterday, small children were dancing
at the curbside -- unable to hide their delight at the thought that soon
we would be leaving them in peace.
Lloyd
*****
Don Robertson
music asshole.
Don
BTW I use the term "rap music" tongue in cheek. There is no such thing as
rap and music together
"Captain Infinity" <Infi...@world.std.com> wrote in message
news:1i5eeuk3be1nigse0...@4ax.com...
MrRobotTow
"Make no mistake about it! Without humor, freedom would drive you insane."
Bill
I am so cool, that sheep count ME before they go to sleep.
http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/
MrRobotTow
>
>Im from Canada. And we piss em off all the Time
>
>Its OUR hobby. hahahhaaa
I should've hired you to piss them off when we had the nasty, smelly,
unbathed, disgusting little twats living below us. What vermin.
MrRobotTow
>Sat morning and some followed us into the parking lot to say thanks.
>"Hear'" I thought they were enjoying the music while actualy they were being
>tortured by the drones
Well I'm sure they were by yours Jim, but luckily you had chums to play along
and hide yours.
Peter Walker
Buckley <mbp...@sover.net> wrote:
And yet an octave lower in pitch than the Binou-kozh.
<shudder>
--
Peter Wykoff Walker II http://peter.walker.name
Computational Physics, Inc. / Naval Research Laboratory
--------- QUI NOS RODUNT CONFUNDANTUR ET CUM IUSTIS NON SCRIBANTUR ---------
Peter Walker
<pi...@pacinfo.com> wrote:
>Coward!! Make an insulting post like that then run away. Go back to your rap
>music asshole.
I'm willing to bet money the originator of this post knows more about
the pipes than most of us here, and is giggling at all the times the
knee-jerk responses his post has elicited refer to his "ignorance".
Trolls don't troll because they're ignorant. Trolls troll because of
the heated, over-earnest responses from gallery.
Blarg
>In article <3ce9...@news.newszilla.com>, Don Robertson
><pi...@pacinfo.com> wrote:
>
>>Coward!! Make an insulting post like that then run away. Go back to your rap
>>music asshole.
>
>I'm willing to bet money the originator of this post knows more about
>the pipes than most of us here, and is giggling at all the times the
>knee-jerk responses his post has elicited refer to his "ignorance".
>
>Trolls don't troll because they're ignorant. Trolls troll because of
>the heated, over-earnest responses from gallery.
I believe the original poster is actually a professional piper. I hear he's
close friends with P/M Gordon Webster, HM Queen Elizabeth's ex piper, and can
occasionally be seen piping with him at certain events.
Hope this helps..
-Blarg!
Stéphane ROCHON
biniou-kozh under your window ;-)
By the way, the french hate as much has you do those instruments. Remember
those are Breton instruments, not french. Brittany in France is like
Scotland in the UK.
Stephane
http://www.bagad-ker-vourdel.org
Gérard Morvan
"Hugh Jass" <chewi...@loositsflavour.bedpost.co.uk> a écrit dans le
message news: ac8sff$bd2$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
I suppose those views will p*ss
> off several million Frenchmen <ok ask me if I'm worried>
> Hugh.
>
>
bombarde in a bagadig. She made me listen to it at close range more than a
year ago, and my ears haven't still recovered. Note taht I prefer the breton
bagad to any pipe bands, not because I'm breton, but because of the larger
versatility the use of bombardes allows, and the more swinging beat of the
drums. Just my opinion, of course.
Gérard Morvan
MrRobotTow
Yes, but OTOH everyone hates the french.
>Brittany in France is like
>Scotland in the UK.
Except the frebch dislike bathing, surrender before the battle starts, and
everyone hates them. Poor 'ol Frenchies.
Peter Walker
<stephan...@free.fr> wrote:
>Give me your personal address so I can come and play some bombard and
>biniou-kozh under your window ;-)
I've already taken care of that squirrel infestation in the attic, but
thanks for the offer! :^)
>By the way, the french hate as much has you do those instruments.
Didn't say I hated it. It's just something... you have to steel
yourself for...
Matt Buckley
"Peter Walker" <p...@mac.com> wrote:
> >The bombarde is quite possibly the most appropriately named
> >instrument inthe history of music <g>
> And yet an octave lower in pitch than the Binou-kozh.
Actually, to be fair, I quite like the bombarde in certain contexts. The
great New England contra-dance band, Wild Asparagus, uses a bombarde from
time to time in their tune sets, and the effect in a crowed dance hall can
be electrifying. A binou-kozh can also be effective in a dance context.
But a little goes a long way <g>
Cheers. Matt
Peter Walker
>
> Actually, to be fair, I quite like the bombarde in certain contexts.
Oh, as do I. It's a fun, bright instrument when played well. But it's
a real kick in the pants the first couple of times you hear it.
Especially on a Sunday morning, but that's a different story!
And kids - who have fewer inhibitions with regard to the social graces
than we - make their distress bluntly known by covering their ears.
Adults, especially ones seated very near the stage, tend to
involuntarily flinch, something Clandestine's drummer once pointed out
with great glee when their piper was tuning the bombarde before
launching into a Breton set.
Speaking of Bombardes, I was a bit thrown for a loop this last weekend
at the Hanover Heritage Festival, when Moch Pryderi played an An Dro
on a Bombarde in C (tune in F). I was so used to hearing the same tune
played by Clandestine on a Bb (tune in Eb) I just couldn't get used to
it. Transpose a tune up a fifth - ie, a fiddle string - and I'm fine.
Transpose it up a minor second or so, and it bugs the bejezus out me.
Except between 440 A and 475 A, but I'm used to hearing that. Go
figure.
Chris Hamilton
>Except the frebch dislike bathing, surrender before the battle starts, and
>everyone hates them. Poor 'ol Frenchies.
Really? Ever hear of Verdun?
Chris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Christopher Hamilton -- ch...@toneczar.com
ToneCzar Inc. -- http://www.toneczar.com
MrRobotTow
No, I avoid those kinds of bars.
Hugh Jass
"Gérard Morvan" <her...@club-internet.fr> wrote in message
news:3cea3003$0$21584$7a62...@news.club-internet.fr...
My introduction to it was at a pipe festival. Twenty or more Bretton pipers
filed on stage and were playing full blast.
I looked into the corner where four diminutive characters sat with something
looking halfway between a kazoo and bugle.
My initial thought was 'Those poor guys won't be heard over this lot'.
Oh dear was I wrong!
Hugh
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
There was a group from the Limousine region called, "Lo Jai" a few
years ago that used bombarde and Limousine pipes to great effect. But
the greatest concert or "consort" instrumentalism I've heard using the
tonalities of wide-bore single-reeded pipes is Bagad Kemper, which
essentially acts as a combined DCI-style drum/bugle corps ensemble
using the various reed pipes instead of brass. That includes bombarde,
Highland pipes, and particularly Highland pipe band drum styles and
drums, to create something far more progressive and innovative, and
inherently musical than most of the rather lame attempts of some of
the so-called "World's Champion" GHB bands and solo masters to throw
together some sort of unique or modern ensemble sound, particularly
the usually awkward attempts to combine ethnic drumming, or jazz, or
other various folk and jazz instruments with Highland piping and
drumming.
I think that stems from an inherently or at least culturally limited
concept of music overall in the current or at least recently passed
generations of leadership in these bands. Particularly their very
vague sense of "Celtic" or "traditional" jig/reel and other genres and
rhythms, and overall lack of familiarity with any musical theory.
What Bagad Kemper has done with the concept however, is truly musical,
a totally new ensemble sound and very professional.
Royce
http://royceworld.dyndns.org
Brian Boru Irish Pipe Band
Zetland Pipes, other stuff to see and hear.
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/118/sfu.html
Stéphane ROCHON
are interested what are the most intersting bagad CDs available.
I have received similar information from the group to listen to "down under"
and "flame of wrath" so I can return the kindness.
E-mail me privately if you are interested.
Stéphane
Ian Lawther
> that is played on them.
> Captain Infinity
A Northumbrian piper friend of mine always said that you can divide the
world into people who like drone instruments and those who don't. The former
include pipers but would also include hurdy-gurdy, sitar and appalachian
dulcimer players for example. He claimed that those in this group would be
more likely to be well disposed to other drone instruments. Conversely those
who dislike one drone instrument tend not to have others as their favourite
instrument.
I take it Captain Infinity is in the latter category, and whilst his post is
a little over the top it is interesting to see the drone specified so
clearly as the villain of the peace.
Ian Lawther.
me...@skyway.usask.ca
>> It is the constant low-tone drone that underscores every so-called "note"
>> that is played on them.
>
> > Captain Infinity
>
>A Northumbrian piper friend of mine always said that you can divide the
>world into people who like drone instruments and those who don't. The former
I would add the division "double reed" and "non- double reed" people
as well (oboes don't have drones, sitars don't have double reeds).
... (excluding bombardes of course! - that is a separate class)
Chris
Royce Lerwick
Send me some band names if you like, but I'll tell you that "Flame of
Wrath" and other rather pretentious Highland pipe band efforts don't
really fall into the same category and many of them are awkward, and
under-developed in comparison.
Dan McFeeley
> I guess the name "Captain Infinity" refers to the limits of your
> ignorance about bagpipes, which appear to be boundless. Yeah, sure
> you can bash the Great Highland Pipes for the constant drone, but no
> you said "bagpipes" as if all bagpipes do this.
I did a quick Google search for Captain Infinity's e-mail addres and
found out he hangs out on alt.religion.kibbo. That says it all. He
just trolled you guys, big time!
Interesting discussion it seems to have generated -- I haven't had
time to look through all the responses yet.
-- Dan M.
<><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><><><><>
Dan McFeeley
mcfe...@keynet.net
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>cha...@panix.com (Chakaal The Indifferent) wrote ...
>
>> I guess the name "Captain Infinity" refers to the limits of your
>> ignorance about bagpipes, which appear to be boundless. Yeah, sure
>> you can bash the Great Highland Pipes for the constant drone, but no
>> you said "bagpipes" as if all bagpipes do this.
>
>I did a quick Google search for Captain Infinity's e-mail addres and
>found out he hangs out on alt.religion.kibbo. That says it all. He
>just trolled you guys, big time!
As if that precluded the possibility that he wasn't actually a piper.
Tommyboland1
1 guess.... i bet your an english dick head
MrRobotTow
>1 guess
Can anyone translate drunken-irish to english for me?
Brian Rodenborn
Don Robertson <pi...@pacinfo.com> wrote in message
news:3ce9...@news.newszilla.com...
> Coward!! Make an insulting post like that then run away. Go back to your
rap
> music asshole.
Wait a minute there. Cap can do rap out his asshole? Now that's something
I'd like to see!
Well, not *see* exactly. In fact I dunt wanna to see anything about Cappy's
ass atall. In fact, forget I said anything. Ignore this post, it never
happened. You are getting sleeeeeepy.
Cassie
No sir...haha...but I'd like to understand it myself.
MrRobotTow
It's probably not worth the time we've already spent on it.
Arthur Levesque
Don>your rap music asshole.
Brian>Wait a minute there. Cap can do rap out his asshole? Now that's
Brian>something I'd like to see!
Check out John Waters' "Pink Flamingos"; just recently brought up by
Tyler in another thread...
--
"Some of the acting was quite banal." -Dave "Darth Vader" Prowse,
commenting on "Attack of the Clones," in the San Francisco Examiner.
MrRobotTow
>Brian>something I'd like to see!
>
> Check out John Waters' "Pink Flamingos"; just recently brought up by
>Tyler in another thread...
Why, can he do rap from his asshole? I'm not attracted to mens assholes either,
but I'd really like to see that too! Is there an all female rap group that does
this? I can get "on the band wagon" for that...
Hugh Jass
em up again.
(or even play em for five minutes for that matter) and the reeds all seem to
have a mind of their own, deciding whether they will or won't sound properly
at any given pressure depending on the weather, barometric pressure, phases
of the moon or if there's an 'R' in the month.
If anyone knows a good Uilleann pipe reed maker in the UK who's willing to
guarantee his work (i.e. not sell you one for a kings ransom that cracks two
days after purchase and then mysteriously announces- "It must have been
chanter head interference") please let me know.
me...@skyway.usask.ca
drone reeds are not too difficult -one of mine (tenor) is cane, the other
is brass staple material sealed at the end, filed off at an angle,
smoothed on emery cloth on glass, with a plastic (styrene) tongue.
I have never got a bass working.
Get Tim Britton's book on reed making see Na Pibairi Uilleann web site);
there are other books - get them all - there are also instructions on the
web (Seth Gallagher's site ?).
If the chanter reed crack is a hairline one, you can fix it by
painting with nail polish - I've been painting mine (my *one* working
reed- which I didn't make) for years. (DONT EVER USE CRAZY GLUE!)
Chris
MrRobotTow
>em up again.
>(or even play em for five minutes for that matter) and the reeds all seem to
>have a mind of their own,
You are playing PAKI pipes! Get a set of new american made pipes, and like ours
(set up with synthetics) they are almost always in tune or close, and have
never failed us when needed.
Hugh Jass
<me...@skyway.usask.ca> wrote in message
news:28MAY02....@skyway.usask.ca...
Hiya Chris...
Yep got the book, done the courses, made all the strange shooting
boards, gouged my fingers and have been trying for almost 20 years the only
thing I can't do is make a working chanter reed. I do have about
thirty/forty completely unplayable attemps here which for some strange
reason I'm loath to throw away, could be the blood sweat & tears that went
into em...
I don't know what crazy glue is, but if you strip a cracked reed, and apply
super glue to the crack and sand it you get something playable although I
suspect a reed that isn't cracked in the first place would be a far better
option.
Thanks for the advice, but I'm thinking of taking up the fiddle.
Hugh.
me...@skyway.usask.ca
> Yep got the book, done the courses, made all the strange shooting
>boards, gouged my fingers and have been trying for almost 20 years the only
>thing I can't do is make a working chanter reed. I do have about
>thirty/forty completely unplayable attemps here which for some strange
>reason I'm loath to throw away, could be the blood sweat & tears that went
>into em...
>I don't know what crazy glue is, but if you strip a cracked reed, and apply
>super glue to the crack and sand it you get something playable although I
>suspect a reed that isn't cracked in the first place would be a far better
>option.
>
>Thanks for the advice, but I'm thinking of taking up the fiddle.
>
>Hugh.
Good choice! - I have made about 200 ch.reeds - same result as yours
(i.e.zip) - I am "lucky" my 1st reed was a good one (13 yrs and counting).
Crazy glue is also called super glue - but it's very thin, and if it
gets into the sides of your reed, it's toast ... the reed, that is.
Nail polish is thick enough to sit on top & doesn't seem to affect the sound
(there are also thicker varieties of superglue, e.g. "for leather" - but
I haven't tried them).
My guess is that some chanters are just hard to reed ... (but maybe the
rest of them are too !)
Chris
Peter Schug
chewi...@loositsflavour.bedpost.co.uk wrote on 5/28/02 2:40 PM:
[snip]
> Hiya Chris...
> Yep got the book, done the courses, made all the strange shooting
> boards, gouged my fingers and have been trying for almost 20 years the only
> thing I can't do is make a working chanter reed. I do have about
> thirty/forty completely unplayable attemps here which for some strange
> reason I'm loath to throw away, could be the blood sweat & tears that went
> into em...
> I don't know what crazy glue is, but if you strip a cracked reed, and apply
> super glue to the crack and sand it you get something playable although I
> suspect a reed that isn't cracked in the first place would be a far better
> option.
>
> Thanks for the advice, but I'm thinking of taking up the fiddle.
>
> Hugh.
>
>
Don't forget to check out the fiddle making books by both Strobel and Wake.
You can start by fitting bridges and rehairing bows, then progress to
adjusting soundposts etc. Stew/Mac has a pretty good video on fiddle set up.
;-)
Pete
--
Check out my fiddle building web site
http://home.att.net/~PeteSchug/
Updated July 23, 2000
me...@skyway.usask.ca
>in article ad0ic9$jkr$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk, Hugh Jass at
>chewi...@loositsflavour.bedpost.co.uk wrote on 5/28/02 2:40 PM:
>
>[snip]
>>
>Don't forget to check out the fiddle making books by both Strobel and Wake.
>
>You can start by fitting bridges and rehairing bows, then progress to
>adjusting soundposts etc. Stew/Mac has a pretty good video on fiddle set up.
>
> ;-)
>
>Pete
>--
>Check out my fiddle building web site
>http://home.att.net/~PeteSchug/
>Updated July 23, 2000
>
likely to other players, if not makers, in town to ask. Not
so for UP.
Chris
Peter Schug
me...@skyway.usask.ca wrote on 5/28/02 1:33 PM:
Nothing is all that hard to do on a fiddle if you are handy, I was just
pointing out that you can keep on working on things, probably with a bit
more satisfaction. Fiddles have their mysteries, but for the most part
careful workers get good results, and they are probably easier to play than
the pipes.
Scot Kortegaard
interchange......
Scot.
--
Formerly, We Suffered From Crimes.
Now, We Suffer From Laws.
Tacitus
"Peter Schug" <Pete...@att.net> wrote in message
news:B919815D.17CB3%Pete...@att.net...
Royce Lerwick
<chewi...@loositsflavour.bedpost.co.uk> wrote:
>Hiya Chris...
> Yep got the book, done the courses, made all the strange shooting
>boards, gouged my fingers and have been trying for almost 20 years the only
>thing I can't do is make a working chanter reed.
Reminds me of this guy from Florida I know from the UP list.
Peter Walker
<Pete...@att.net> wrote:
>Fiddles have their mysteries, but for the most part
>careful workers get good results, and they are probably easier to play than
>the pipes.
Depends on the kind of pipes, I suppose - but I play both fiddle (w/ 10
years of classical violin training) and GHB, and frankly, the GHB are a
nine-hole party favor in comparison to the fiddle when it comes to
difficulty.
--
Peter Wykoff Walker II http://peter.walker.name
Computational Physics, Inc. / Naval Research Laboratory
--------- QUI NOS RODUNT CONFUNDANTUR ET CUM IUSTIS NON SCRIBANTUR ---------
Chakaal The Indifferent
I keep hearing that people think fiddle is difficult - but the only
thing I every picked up and couldn't get a tune out of was the
Uilleann Pipes, so maybe that is their fascination. To be sure, violin
was my first instrument when I was 8, and I didn't work real hard at it,
but the pipes require some real multi-tasking. Now, what I find difficult
about the fiddle is playing "session speed" which I think is a euphemism
for "faster and faster and faster, asymptotically!"
--chak
Captain Infinity
>funny how a thread can start out as "crap", and end up with some pretty good
>interchange......
> Scot.
My work here is done.
**
Captain Infinity, F.E.W., Kamikaze Peep Squad, http://std.com/~Infinity
Peter Walker
<cha...@panix.com> wrote:
>To be sure, violin
>was my first instrument when I was 8, and I didn't work real hard at it,
>but the pipes require some real multi-tasking.
Pipes multi-tasking? If you're talking about the operation of the bag,
than IMO, no, pipes are a benign background process rather than real
mult-tasking. Let's face it, bowing is vastly more complicated than
squeezing - either you master the bag or you don't, but that's
mechanics, not expression.
The absence of dynamic range in pipes makes it hard for me to
understand how anyone can describe it as "harder" than any instrument
that does have dynamic range.
>Now, what I find difficult
>about the fiddle is playing "session speed" which I think is a euphemism
>for "faster and faster and faster, asymptotically!"
Yeah, but session tunes are stripped-down to merely the bare tune; both
the fingering and the bowing. When you're in a session, the fiddle
might as well be a whistle for all the expression you're allowed to get
out of it. Nature of the pick-up ensemble.
OTOH, a fully ornamented solo fiddle (or violin) piece is something
truly amazing to behold - all the complexity of the pipes in the
fingering, but doubling it with the complexity of bowing as well. Same
goes really for any dynamic instrument. Don't get me wrong, I love the
sound of the pipes (really, any of the pipes). But they're not anywhere
near the pinnacle of difficulty pipers - especially GHB players -
flatter themselves to think.
MrRobotTow
>squeezing
I'd like to see you bowing AND playing the bagpipe...
Hugh Jass
"Peter Walker" <p...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:300520021622234196%p...@mac.com...
> In article <ad2eb2$rrj$1...@panix1.panix.com>, Chakaal The Indifferent
> OTOH, a fully ornamented solo fiddle (or violin) piece is something
> truly amazing to behold - all the complexity of the pipes in the
> fingering, but doubling it with the complexity of bowing as well. Same
> goes really for any dynamic instrument. Don't get me wrong, I love the
> sound of the pipes (really, any of the pipes). But they're not anywhere
> near the pinnacle of difficulty pipers - especially GHB players -
> flatter themselves to think.
Yep got to go along with this one Pete.
Uilleann pipes are a doddle. Don't tell anyone though. All that 'difficult
to play' story's just put around to make players look good. I particularly
liked Ennis's 21 years wheeze ;-)
Doh!
Ok seriously now...
I think it's a personal experience thing, I think some find the fiddle
difficult, others the pipes. My feeling is, it doesn't matter how long you
play either you never feel you've reached the stage where you are no longer
learning to play the instrument. I also suspect that one has to have a deep
love of the instrument to put in the time necessary to gain playing
proficiency and that this is likely to make one blinkered to the time and
effort put in by musicians on other instruments.
In particular I do agree with you about bellows on the U.Pipes, it's like
the clutch in the car, it takes little skill once it's been mastered. The
bag on the other hand takes skill hardly anyone appreciates. The chanter has
to be overblown for the second register (unlike GHPipes) without altering
the drone reed pressure adversely, often nipping in and out of the second
register hopefully without the drones wailing up and down. Then there's the
regulators, a bit like a bontempi chord organ played with the wrist/heel of
the same hand that's simultaneously playing the bottom end of the chanter.
I think you may see from what I'm saying, direct comparisons of required
skill is impossible as both instruments have their own intricacies and
require different skills.. The only common skill required is dedication.
imho
Hugh.
Chakaal The Indifferent
Peter Walker <pe...@walker.name> wrote:
>In article <ad2eb2$rrj$1...@panix1.panix.com>, Chakaal The Indifferent
><cha...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>To be sure, violin
>>was my first instrument when I was 8, and I didn't work real hard at it,
>>but the pipes require some real multi-tasking.
>
>Pipes multi-tasking? If you're talking about the operation of the bag,
>than IMO, no, pipes are a benign background process rather than real
Ah. Uilleann Pipes. Bellows. Bag. Chanter. Regulators - not
GHBs.
>mult-tasking. Let's face it, bowing is vastly more complicated than
>squeezing - either you master the bag or you don't, but that's
>mechanics, not expression.
Compared to elbow flapping pressure regulating bowing is a cinch. Your
right fingers...well mine...tend to try and come off the proper placement
on the holes when the elbow moves - that was a big adustment for me.
>
>The absence of dynamic range in pipes makes it hard for me to
>understand how anyone can describe it as "harder" than any instrument
>that does have dynamic range.
>
I got two octaves in my Uilleann Pipes... I got two octaves in my fiddle.
>>Now, what I find difficult
>>about the fiddle is playing "session speed" which I think is a euphemism
>>for "faster and faster and faster, asymptotically!"
>
>Yeah, but session tunes are stripped-down to merely the bare tune; both
>the fingering and the bowing. When you're in a session, the fiddle
>might as well be a whistle for all the expression you're allowed to get
>out of it. Nature of the pick-up ensemble.
I don't leave out my usual ornaments - that is even more difficult! I
tried it. Pick-up it may be, but my session has 12 or so regulars and
we're so used to playing together that the pick up nature is minimal. We all
know what the others will do.
>
>OTOH, a fully ornamented solo fiddle (or violin) piece is something
>truly amazing to behold - all the complexity of the pipes in the
>fingering, but doubling it with the complexity of bowing as well. Same
>goes really for any dynamic instrument. Don't get me wrong, I love the
>sound of the pipes (really, any of the pipes). But they're not anywhere
>near the pinnacle of difficulty pipers - especially GHB players -
>flatter themselves to think.
I've been a fiddle player since I was 8 - I started uilleann pipes when
I was 30 or so. They are fiendishly difficult - and if you haven't heard
an Uilleann Piper who's good, and is using the drones and regulators to
full effect then I can see how you'd feel the way you do. But I think
the Uilleann Pipes are the most difficult thing I've ever done - and I have
a heck of a lot of respect for guys like Mark Hillmann, Tim Britton, Jerry
O'Sullivan, Brian MacNamara - who take this octupus like thing and get
music out of it.
>
>--
>Peter Wykoff Walker II http://peter.walker.name
>Computational Physics, Inc. / Naval Research Laboratory
> --------- QUI NOS RODUNT CONFUNDANTUR ET CUM IUSTIS NON SCRIBANTUR ---------
--Chak
Peter Walker
<chewi...@loositsflavour.bedpost.co.uk> wrote:
>"Peter Walker" <p...@mac.com> wrote in message
>news:300520021622234196%p...@mac.com...
>> In article <ad2eb2$rrj$1...@panix1.panix.com>, Chakaal The Indifferent
>
>> OTOH, a fully ornamented solo fiddle (or violin) piece is something
>> truly amazing to behold - all the complexity of the pipes in the
>> fingering, but doubling it with the complexity of bowing as well. Same
>> goes really for any dynamic instrument. Don't get me wrong, I love the
>> sound of the pipes (really, any of the pipes). But they're not anywhere
>> near the pinnacle of difficulty pipers - especially GHB players -
>> flatter themselves to think.
>
>Yep got to go along with this one Pete.
>Uilleann pipes are a doddle.
Now, I ain't talking Uilleann pipes; I'm talking GHB. The Uilleanns
have enough bells and whistles on them that I'd have to actually get
some experience on them before I could offer an opinion on their
difficulty - something I hope to take up in the next few years. Cost
being the big issue... :^)
>In particular I do agree with you about bellows on the U.Pipes, it's like
>the clutch in the car, it takes little skill once it's been mastered.
Actually, I was talking about the bag on the GHB, but yeah, one
imagines the bellows qualifies as a benign background process as well.
>I think you may see from what I'm saying, direct comparisons of required
>skill is impossible as both instruments have their own intricacies and
>require different skills..
In principle, I completely disagee - comparisons as to difficulty are
possible, for someone studying both. As I said, I wouldn't compare UP
to fiddle because I haven't studied UP yet. I'm comparing fiddle and
GHB, and there's no comparison. The only way in which the GHB can be
considered hard is the amount of physical exertion required to operate
it.
Now is a judgment of difficulty a moral judgement on the instrument. An
easy instrument to play might have a better sound than a hard one -
that's a purely subjective aesthetic judgement. Personally, I think
both pipes and fiddle sound wonderfully.
Peter Walker
<cha...@panix.com> wrote:
]>>mult-tasking. Let's face it, bowing is vastly more complicated than
>>squeezing - either you master the bag or you don't, but that's
>>mechanics, not expression.
>
>Compared to elbow flapping pressure regulating bowing is a cinch.
Except, of course, bowing is all about expression. Elbow flapping is a
process irrelevant to the actual music.
Which is really my point.
>Your right fingers...well mine...tend to try and come off the proper placement
>on the holes when the elbow moves - that was a big adustment for me.
Is that really different from the aw
>
>>
>>The absence of dynamic range in pipes makes it hard for me to
>>understand how anyone can describe it as "harder" than any instrument
>>that does have dynamic range.
>>
>I got two octaves in my Uilleann Pipes... I got two octaves in my fiddle.
And how much control do you have on volume? And how much thought do you
have to invest in adjusting volume of the instrument - on short time
scales relative to the note, for stress, and on long time scales, for
expression of a musical phase, in addition to whatever you're doing
with timing of notes to achieve this? I'm curious about UP here, but
for GHB, you've got zero control on your volume and stress, which is
why the GHB fakes it with a relatively rigid formalism of ornaments,
and timing of notes within the dot-cut pattern to create the illusion
of dynamism.
Dynamic range doesn't mean pitch range - it means the instrument isn't
on-off binary. And pipes are on-off binary. Nature of the beast. You're
either playing them or you're not. Granted the fiddle can be played
that way too (and is in sessions), but it's a complete waste of the
potential of the instrument.
More degrees of freedom, more complexity. It's a simple equation,
really. As I mention elsewhere, I'm mainly talking GHB; the bells and
whistles of the proper use of regulators on UP - from a musical
expression standpoint - add enough complexity that I'd have to learn
them before I could compare.
Matt Buckley
"Peter Walker" <p...@mac.com> wrote
>Yeah, but session tunes are stripped-down to merely the bare >tune; both
the fingering and the bowing. When you're in a session, >the fiddle might as
well be a whistle for all the expression you're >allowed to get out of it.
Nature of the pick-up ensemble.
I disagree. The sessions that you are participating in must be fairly
low-level. Listen to folks like Liz Carroll, Jerry Holland, Natalie
MacMaster et. al. and the last thing they are doing is "stripping" down to
the "bare" tune. Over the years, I have the good fortune to play [backup
guitar], in sessions, with some of the finest Irish musicians in the US.
Solid UP and fiddle players usually play at speed reasonable enough to
permit appropriate ornamentation. If you're playing the fiddle without
expression or classic Irish/Scottish/Cape Breton ornamentation, then you
aren't playing the fiddle. To the finest Irish/Scottish musicians, someone
playing at 125 bpm, without expression, isn't playing Irish or Scottish
music or
anything much like it.
> OTOH, a fully ornamented solo fiddle (or violin) piece is >something truly
amazing to behold - all the complexity of the pipes >in the fingering, but
doubling it with the complexity of bowing as >well.
Almost ALL of the complexity in the fiddle is in the bowing, not the left
hand. Any serious fiddler will say that you "play the bow, not the fiddle".
The left hand is a piece of cake compared to GHB ornamentation.
I cannot claim expertise on the fiddle. But I do know something about
string instruments, having studied the string bass, and therefore bowing
technique, for 8 years in my youth. To be clear about "studied", we're not
talking professional level or anything close to it. But I did achieve
enough on the instrument to play with a college orchestra for 4 years, and I
played for opera/symphonic performances that included members of the
Cincinnati Symphony and the Springfield (Ohio) Symphony. I'm also taking
fiddle lessons from a very highly regarded Irish fiddler.
You're trying to compare, in a computational/engineering manner, two very
disparate instruments. Apples and oranges here, Peter. Both instruments,
played well and seriously, are difficult as hell.
Cheers. Matt
Chakaal The Indifferent
Peter Walker <pe...@walker.name> wrote:
>In article <ad6r3p$q61$1...@panix2.panix.com>, Chakaal The Indifferent
><cha...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>]>>mult-tasking. Let's face it, bowing is vastly more complicated than
>>>squeezing - either you master the bag or you don't, but that's
>>>mechanics, not expression.
>>
>>Compared to elbow flapping pressure regulating bowing is a cinch.
>
>Except, of course, bowing is all about expression. Elbow flapping is a
>process irrelevant to the actual music.
>
>Which is really my point.
My point in the difficulty scale being coordinating three things on the
right hand (bellows, regulators, fingering) and two things ont he left
(bag pressure and fingering) - oh, and stopping the chanter against your
leg and bringing it off just a bit for the bottom "D". Fiendish.
>
>>Your right fingers...well mine...tend to try and come off the proper placement
>>on the holes when the elbow moves - that was a big adustment for me.
>
>Is that really different from the aw
EH? if the fingers aren't stopping the holes properly, or coming off
for a note or an ornament you get cats being hit repeatedly by broken
fiddles.
>>>
>>>The absence of dynamic range in pipes makes it hard for me to
>>>understand how anyone can describe it as "harder" than any instrument
>>>that does have dynamic range.
>>>
>>I got two octaves in my Uilleann Pipes... I got two octaves in my fiddle.
>
>And how much control do you have on volume? And how much thought do you
>have to invest in adjusting volume of the instrument - on short time
>scales relative to the note, for stress, and on long time scales, for
>expression of a musical phase, in addition to whatever you're doing
>with timing of notes to achieve this? I'm curious about UP here, but
>for GHB, you've got zero control on your volume and stress, which is
>why the GHB fakes it with a relatively rigid formalism of ornaments,
>and timing of notes within the dot-cut pattern to create the illusion
>of dynamism.
>
Volume you mostly control with your reed, true. But there are ornaments
which are sort of binary, and others that are not. I don't know what you
call 'em but they are like half-holing on a whistle. Get Jerry
O'Sullivans "The Gift" and listen to track seven.
>Dynamic range doesn't mean pitch range - it means the instrument isn't
>on-off binary. And pipes are on-off binary. Nature of the beast. You're
>either playing them or you're not. Granted the fiddle can be played
>that way too (and is in sessions), but it's a complete waste of the
>potential of the instrument.
>
>More degrees of freedom, more complexity. It's a simple equation,
>really. As I mention elsewhere, I'm mainly talking GHB; the bells and
>whistles of the proper use of regulators on UP - from a musical
>expression standpoint - add enough complexity that I'd have to learn
>them before I could compare.
Run. Away!
Hugh Jass
> In principle, I completely disagee - comparisons as to difficulty are
> possible, for someone studying both. As I said, I wouldn't compare UP
> to fiddle because I haven't studied UP yet. I'm comparing fiddle and
> GHB, and there's no comparison. The only way in which the GHB can be
> considered hard is the amount of physical exertion required to operate
> it.
Ah! a disagreement :-)
You're right we aren't going to agree on this one.
I believe it's always going to be a subjective thing, you appear to believe
that there is some empirical way of measuring the difficulty of playing an
instrument.
I have no wish to change yours or anyone's beliefs, as I'd hope you don't
with me.
My own experience of the two instruments is that they are both tricky and
unkind to beginners. Either one takes a bit of initial 'taming'. You can't
initially tinkle out a few notes in perfect tune like a keyboard. In my case
I only initially had the dedication to push through that period with the
pipes. This was only due to my interest in the instrument, and since that
time I've taken the time to also gain a degree of proficiency on the fiddle.
I still wouldn't like to say which is the more difficult to play. The pipes
do suffer a lot with reed problems whereas the fiddle sits there in it's
case and plays with ten seconds tuning. In that respect I find it easier to
play. The fiddle isn't tied to either an even tempered or a harmonic scale
(as are the pipes) so from that point of view it plays along 'easier' with
all other instruments. I'm a little out of shape and not getting any younger
so a long session of bellows pumping can knock the 'wind' out of me, whereas
I find I can sit and play the fiddle for hours with only minor discomfort,
so in that respect I find the fiddle easier.. Ok I'm still looking for
something easier about the pipes (I'm sure there must be something!) Oh yes,
it has holes for the notes and if the chanters in tune top and bottom it's
in tune all over. Well appart from reed problems throwing the upper and
lower registers out of tune with each other. The fiddle has no frets so
fingering a scale is awkward for beginners in comparison and of course, as
you say, the bowing is more difficult/important than a beginner may think.
> Now is a judgment of difficulty a moral judgement on the instrument. An
> easy instrument to play might have a better sound than a hard one -
> that's a purely subjective aesthetic judgement. Personally, I think
> both pipes and fiddle sound wonderfully.
Yes.. it seems strange to be questioning the difficulty to play two
instruments which so naturally complement one another.
In my pipe playing experience, the only instrument which I've ever been
happy playing along with is the fiddle.
Due in no small part to its tone and ability to follow a harmonic scale.
(Ok tin whistles can be nice too ;-)
Hugh
[Door gunner on the Barratt helicopter]
Hugh Jass
> Dynamic range doesn't mean pitch range - it means the instrument isn't
> on-off binary. And pipes are on-off binary. Nature of the beast. You're
> either playing them or you're not. Granted the fiddle can be played
> that way too (and is in sessions), but it's a complete waste of the
> potential of the instrument.
Ah so this isn't about difficulty, it's a 'My instrument's better than
yours' argument?
I don't think anyone would deny the Uilleann pipes are musically a very
limited instrument.
They are stuck with D/G and their minors unless you swap chanters or have
lots of keys in which case the drones are useless and the regs practically
so.
They have no built in volume control mechanism, as you so sagely point out,
they're playing or they're not.
In fact it's surprisingly difficult to get a chanter/drones and regs
ballanced for relative volume at all with 7 reeds involved.
Ok dynamic range = 0
Fiddle -1 U/Pipes - 0
Hugh Jass
"Matt Buckley" <mbp...@sover.net> wrote in message
news:GZJJ8.5146$rX.9...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com...
>>
> You're trying to compare, in a computational/engineering manner, two very
> disparate instruments. Apples and oranges here, Peter. Both instruments,
> played well and seriously, are difficult as hell.
>
> Cheers. Matt
amen to that Matt.
Hugh.
Hugh Jass
"Chakaal The Indifferent" <cha...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ad88ds$k2$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> Volume you mostly control with your reed, true. But there are ornaments
> which are sort of binary, and others that are not. I don't know what you
> call 'em but they are like half-holing on a whistle. Get Jerry
> O'Sullivans "The Gift" and listen to track seven.
Is that the track from the Dolly parton song with all the slides in it?
Wayfaring stranger?
Strangely I found it an easy one on the pipes.
Couldn't pick up the jig afterwards without the dots though ;-)
Hugh.
Peter Walker
<chewi...@loositsflavour.bedpost.co.uk> wrote:
>Ah so this isn't about difficulty, it's a 'My instrument's better than
>yours' argument?
Considering I play both fiddle and GHB (the two instruments I was
originally referring to), this assertion couldn't be further than the
truth - as they are *both* "my" instrument.
Since you're hell-bent on misrepresenting my position, I see no further
reason do engage in discussion with you.
Take your personal insecurities elsewhere.
me...@skyway.usask.ca
for 1 nice reel (for which I don't know the name), I thought the tunes
were *totally* unsuited to UP and I'm glad I hadn't bought it. His
earlier tape(&CD?) is very good (except a little heavy on the polkas).
...JMHO of course
Chris
Hugh Jass
> Take your personal insecurities elsewhere.
Hey these are my personal insecurities.
I'll show em where I like!
Chakaal The Indifferent
No - it is a freaky blues thing preceded by a freaky air-like thing.
i like it...
<grin>
>
>Hugh.
>
>
