From Jerry Gibson
John Mitchell
Folks.........
Lets get our facts straight. and not get caught up in this Kron or Mark Lee
thing..because theres nothing to be caught up in !!! Especially by you know
it alls who seem to know more of whats going in Gibson bagpipes than Jerry
Gibson does himself
1) Rocket reeds do go very well in the Gibson pipes but are more suited
for solo work rather than band performance as they are lower in volume but
very steady in my opinion. Easy drone(tm) reeds are the preferred choice in
Gibson pipes as it currently stands right now
2) Mark Lee offered to redesign his rocket reeds for a top level grade 2
band that are playing Gibson pipes as they felt that the current rocket
reeds by Mark Lee were too quiet as against what they were used to . This
was at Mark Lees own request to perform this redesign function...he didnt
go beyond the call of duty here...I understand that he was the one that
wanted to work with this grade 2 band .....tell me if any grade 1 or 2
bands are playing Rocket reeds across the board...maybe in the lower grades.
3) I hasten to add Mark Lee is making a good reed. but he was'nt the
oringinal innovator of synthetic drone reeds I believe that was Geoff Ross
of Australia..then came Wygent then the other competitors followed suit
Mark Lee's claim to fame was the use of a fibre carbon blade and a bullet
nose shape on the head of the reed
4) Mark Lee I understand published his finding on the rocket reed design
and made it public knowledge..this then made it open to anyone who wanted to
try it without any knock off recourse. or any incrimination by you
folks....so why all the fuss.and the slamming. especially as very few of
your know the real facts
5) Jerry Gibson is not designing and intending to manufacture his own
synthetic drone reed...however he has been asked to evaluate and test a
synthetic drone reed as it performs in this climate and give an opinion
plus suggestions on any changes where warranted...it is of a totally
different concept and configuration than the rocket reed design by Mark Lee.
The initail results show a tremendous lot of promise but it is not ready
yet to manufacture. or even to be published ....theres still a lot of
testing and evaluation to be yet performed
6) Jerry Gibson does however design and manufacture his own premimuim
practice chanter reeds and reeds for the fireside pipes and thats going to
be the extent of reed making by Jerry Gibson as far as he is concerned
7) Jerry Gibson DID NOT attend the seminar where Mark Lee attended
neither was he aware that such a seminar was being offered other than the
fact that Bob Worrall was coming in to work with this band on that
particular weekend
8) Jerry Gibson is publishing his new catalog which should be available very
shortly in a few weeks as will his new website
Sincerely
Jerry H Gibson
Royce Lerwick
<sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Jerry ask me to post this, and this is his legal stance regarding Mark Lee.
Nobody of course made any legal charges against Jerry Gibson.
Interesting that he responds with a legal defense and not a specific
answer to the scenario given, which was essentially an ethical one.
But then, Jerry sent me the following, which I believe is his *actual*
legal position regarding Lee and others:
[quote]
Gentlemen:- Subject:- Notice of
cease and desist of slandering Gibson Bagpipes
I submit this letter to you with deep regret after consultations with
my attorney and much forethought . I have tried to avoid your
inflammatory and derogerrotory unfounded and totally unsubstantiated
remarks against both Gibson Bagpipes Inc.and Jerry Gibson..but after
many unsuccessful attempts and the hope that ttime would cease it
hasnt. The issues and statements that you have published on the
newsgroup publically are totally unfounded and in my own opinion are
both libelous and slanderous ..and is a direct attempt to interfere
and do damage with the good business relationships and reputation of
Gibson Bagpipes Inc. and Jerry Gibson.
Having been the plaintiff in other lawsuits I am very familiar with
the legal process and its devestating expense.for depositions
interrogatories and legal counsel and unnecessary travel
In this particular case the damage has been performed across state
lines and used the phone lines ...this has been a serious attempt to
intentionally and maliciously damage Jerry Gibson and Gibson bagpipes
Inc without just cause or the absense of any proof to support your
devious claims and statements.
As in any newspaper there is the right of free speech but any and all
allegations printed must be totally substantiated. To hide behind a
email address is of no help it is easily traced to the registered
owner as was the case with Mr Atherton of Kron bagpipes. When he used
the pseudo of liam Callahan.
It is also Gibson bagpipes Inc right to file suit if it feels it has
been injured through malice and liberous. I am informed that because
these actions are taken across state lines the suit would be filed
under federal jurisdiction Which would mean the suit is heard in
Cleveland ohio but the law covers all states.!
People are allowed personal; opinions but the statements recently made
were not personal opionions..ex. underage students Working for Gibson
bagpipes...Knocking Mark Lee off on his reed
In any legal action it is both expensive and time consuming But we at
Gibson bagpipes will defend our good name to the utmost of our ability
..we have employees who have families who depend on our support it is
our duty as a employer to defend their work and the conmpany and their
personal reputation .
It has been fully documented all postings over the last 2 years on
this newsgroup it is well noted that Gibson is the only pipe maker who
is being slandered ..there is nothing being mentioned about other
makers worldwide ..why...that shows a direct attempt to interfere with
Gibsons well respected business reptutation and the efforts being put
forth to both damage and undermine it by those writing these
derogatory posts.
Sincerely
Jerry H Gibson
Gibson Bagpipes Inc.
1090 Erie Road Unit C
Eastlake Ohio 44095 USA.
[end quote]
Since I for one have never been involved in any sort of legal,
ethical, or moral equivalent of either "slander" or "libel," this
doesn't seem to apply to me. I'll be happy to give a point-by-point
response shortly when I have a moment.
Royce
Phantom Pipe Band:
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/118/sfu.html
Digital Warrior:
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/83/royce_lerwick.html
Zetland Tunebook, PM's Handbook:
shetlandpiper.com
Zetland Pipes:
www.royceworld.com at:
http://www.haxxed.com/~royce/ (temp)
Bill
>Interesting that he responds with a legal defense and not a specific
>answer to the scenario given, which was essentially an ethical one.
His whole email is total crap. Nothing but rhetoric, and outright lies, but
then, this is exactly the kind of baby BS games that these clowns like to play.
>as was the case with Mr Atherton of Kron bagpipes. When he used
>the pseudo of liam Callahan.
Hes going to lick your arse for that Jerry. Just more of the typical
back-stabbing BS these clowns are noted for.
Jackasses...
Bill
A disgusting, annoying, reactionary prick.
Robert Brazius
too? I think he has the same lawyer as Lindsay.
Rob
Gerald Griffith
>Jerry ask me to post this, and this is his legal stance regarding Mark Lee.
>
>Folks.........
>
>it alls who seem to know more of whats going in Gibson bagpipes than Jerry
>Gibson does himself
>
>
>synthetic drone reed...
>
>practice chanter reeds and reeds for the fireside pipes and thats going to
>be the extent of reed making by Jerry Gibson as far as he is concerned
>
>
>8) Jerry Gibson is publishing his new catalog ...
>
>Sincerely
>Jerry H Gibson
>
So does this guy habitually refer to himself in the third person? Seems a
little strange.....
Bill
>little strange.....
Only between doses.
Bill
Jginmd
It should be noted that I am NOT responding to anyones postings. These are
quoted from an email from Jerry H Gibbson to Royce Lerwick:
>The issues and statements that you have published on the
>newsgroup publically are totally unfounded and in my own opinion are
>both libelous and slanderous
...I didn't know he was a lawer?
>Having been the plaintiff in other lawsuits
Do tell!
This is the most interesting thing I've heard in a long time. Was the legal
action mention in reagard to bagpipes?
>this has been a serious attempt to
>intentionally and maliciously damage Jerry Gibson and Gibson >bagpipes
I know this is cut and pasted from an email intended for you but it sounds
like he is talking about a group of folks and I for one didn't make any effort.
The product "speaks for itself " as they say. If I had made a serious effort,
you would know it. As it is, I really couldn't care less.
I don't know Jerry Gibbson or anyone who currently plays his pipe. I had a
student who came to me with one but we decided to sell it after they heard and
played my pipes.
>this has been a serious attempt to
>intentionally and maliciously damage Jerry Gibson and Gibson bagpipes
>Inc without just cause or the absense of any proof to support your
>devious claims and statements.
"Without an absense of proof"
This is true. I wouldn't use a double negative however. I think it would be
more easily understood to say:
"...With an abundance of proof..."
>To hide behind a
>email address
I never did that
>It has been fully documented all postings over the last 2 years on
>this newsgroup it is well noted that Gibson is the only pipe maker who
>is being slandered ..there is nothing being mentioned about other
>makers worldwide ..why...that shows a direct attempt to interfere with
>Gibsons well respected business reptutation and the efforts being put
>forth to both damage and undermine it by those writing these
>derogatory posts.
Well, that's not true. I have said that Naille produces drones of poor quality
and are very inconsistant.
Sounds like I'm off the hook. I can't wait for the legal action!
JGS
Bill
He is a jerk, but not a lawyer (obviously.)
You see JG this is the same childish threats that this meathead has posted here
before, just stupid hollow threats of legal action. He is the only pipemaker
ever to come on here crying and whining because someone doesnt like his
product, in spite of other names being trashed far worse, and more
consistently. This guy (and at least two others I can think of) are constantly
harassing myself and others with "my lawyers going to be in touch very soon"
and "Mitchell has hired a lawyer from Mass to get you" and I have been accused
of such dasterdly, illegal things as posting things like "his wife left him"
which was of the most memorable jokes. You see the mentality of these people is
that they make up actionable things (that arent even remotely so) and think
were gullible enough to go "OMG! THEY ARE GOING TO SUE ME!!! I BETTER STOP
NOW!."
Anyway, Royce will pick apart their position shortly. In the meantime, ignore
the juveniles.
Bill
Jginmd
There are quite a few posters on the newsgroup that seem to post to almost
every thread. They also claim to be expert players. Now I don't have any
problem with someone who posts a lot and says that they are knowledgable but
don't play enough. I don't find it credible to spend a ton of time posting AND
contend that one's playing is up to snuff or comparable to their knowledge
base. I don't have the time to do all the things I need to do, maintain the
quality of my playing (whatever the level) and spend the kind of time some
folks spend on this group. That is why I post infrequently. I'm too busy
practicing. To be honest, I have a whole life which includes other interests. I
don't consider bagpiping as anything more than a hobby (for me that is) I do
teach a whole mess of people but....
I can't imagine being as emotional about the topic as some people I read. John
Mitchell is very passionate (to the point of maniacal) on every aspect of
piping. Well, good for him. I'm glad he has something to occupy his time. I
don't tend to agree with most of his viewpoints but that doesn't really matter.
I none of these people have any bearing or impact on me or my life. I don't
really care what they think, say or do.
This whole Kron vs Gibbson thing is pretty silly and a big waste of time. I
often say:
"Who am I gonna believe? You or my own eyes?"
I don't know why (I don't read the group on a regular basis) the Kron and
Gibbson camps became so clearly demarkated or why they seem to be so bitter
towards each other. I think that the whole idea of arguing about facts (the
it's night/it''s day kind of argument) like....
-"The combing and beading on Jerry Gibbson's pipes is more consistant and
deaper than on Blue MacMurchie's pipe"
-" That's not true! Dave MacMurchie is a great guy and a master pipemaker!"
-"You people in the Blue camp are stupid!"
-"No you Gibbson people are stupid and your just trying to put poor Jerry out
of business"
Well, look. Either the quality is comprable or it's better than or not as good
as or too inconsistant to make that determination. As far as the Gibbson vs.
Krone thing goes, as a matter of personal preference, one might choose one pipe
over another. As a matter of quality of manufacture, there is no contest. It is
a silly kind of argument to even have.
JGS
Mike Smith
you compete in..?bill ...?
Bpiper3981
what grade do
you compete in..?bill ...?"
ROFL<LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOL. Damn that's a
good one
Cheers
GaryS>>>>>>>>>
Bill
Well you must first realize that theres far more going on here "behind the
scenes" than your aware of.
>John
>Mitchell is very passionate (to the point of maniacal) on every aspect of
>piping. Well, good for him. I'm glad he has something to occupy his time.
Me too! There'd be body parts strewn about otherwise LOL
>none of these people have any bearing or impact on me or my life.
Nor mine, but to some people here, this is VERY serious business, not a hobby,
or an amusement to pass the time between serious subjects.
>or too inconsistant to make that determination.
BUZZZZZZZ! You win with answer #3!
>As far as the Gibbson vs.
>Krone thing goes, as a matter of personal preference, one might choose one
>pipe
>over another.
We are all very aware of this.
>It is
>a silly kind of argument to even have.
But you seem to be enjoying it immensly. ;?)~
Bill
Bill
That seems accurate.
>I don't know anything about you but what band do you play with and what grade
>do
>you compete in..?bill ...?
Why do you ask? Its completely irrelevant in this situation. Does your lawyer
play bagpipes? Is that neccassary to get his legal opinion?
Ask me that in a thread where its relevant, and I'll answer.
P.S. Another junk dealer (exclusive dealers in you-know-whose brand) goes
under. I guess when you sell only one brand of pipes, and it costs you more to
handle complaints about workmanship and cracked wood than you make profit, you
either get a job in the mines while a thief watches over your store, or go
under like these guys. Too bad, but you have to wonder why these stores dont
see this coming, and change over thier line to a product thats relatively
trouble free.
Hows that Mike? Do I need to be a gr1 player to give an opinion on business
too?
Bill
John Mitchell
Jginmd <jgi...@aol.com> wrote in
> I don't know why (I don't read the group on a regular basis) the Kron and
> Gibbson camps became so clearly demarkated or why they seem to be so
bitter
Here's your answer!
When posts like the one below magically appear just to degrade and
discredit
Jerry Gibson's product. It's interesting that a number of your posts only
appear to
make negative comments about Gibson pipes.
But then again as you say, you don't really care what anyone here thinks,
so why bother posting anything at all?
If Gibson Drones are so untunable and loud, then why did
PM Jake Watson play them for years? Jake is a very tough customer
when it comes to sound and he wouldn't put up with trash for 2 seconds.
Also you can ask:
PM John Elliot of Peel Police.
PM Reay MacKay, (One of the Judges at the Livingston Memorial Contest)
PM Davie Caldwell
PS Gregg Abbot ( gold Medalist)
Here's a just few guys that know what sound is, so your story about
Gibson Drones is pure conjecture. You put up a set of Gibson pipes
next to a Kron set and Gibson will blow it out of the water every time.
It did 7 years ago in a contest and it still does it today!
I'll even post the results of that contest if that's what it takes!
You can't argue with that! LOL
From: Jginmd (jgi...@aol.com)
Subject: Re: Outstanding Kron Service
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.bagpipe
View complete thread (61 articles)
Date: 2001-02-01 21:57:49 PST
I don't want to show this guys name (or his teacher's) as I didn't get
permission to share this email publicly.The teacher is a grade one player.
The
student (and author) traded in his set of Gibbsons because the sound they
made
was untunable.
He thought the problem was his ear. I let him try to tune me and he had no
problem doing that (I was playing my pipes) but he couldn't tune himself.
Neither could I. The drone sound was inconsolable and no amount of reed
adjustment helped. The sound the Gibbsons made was......untunable. Certainly
audible just not a very musical sound.
I don't know anything about wood but it seems as dark as anything I've seen
(not that I'd know) and I've never seen a set fall apart but I understand
that
they sometimes do. I have heard that Jerry Gibbson himself is a very nice
person. That doesn't make a good pipe. The specs on his product need
adjustment
and I hear he is not interested or willing to make (or even try) any
adjustment
in this regard. I guess he likes the way his product works? I know of six
people (in my band) who are experienced players and put their own pipes
aside
to purchase a set of Krons.
John Mitchell
Bill <mrrob...@aol.com> wrote in
> Hows that Mike? Do I need to be a gr1 player to give an opinion on
business
> too?
> Bill
He's not even a Gr5 practice chanter player Mike!
His opinion counts for nothing on this NG, so don't
waste your time with him.
Bill
>
This is Mitchells wet dream, not even remotely connected to reality. He has no
idea how well I play, If I compete or not, basically as with most subjects, hes
just plain ignorant.
>His opinion counts for nothing on this NG, so don't
>waste your time with him.
>
Yes, just ask Johns pinion of how to hold down a girl while you rape her, hes
good at that.
Bill
Bill
>PM Jake Watson play them for years? Jake is a very tough customer
>when it comes to sound and he wouldn't put up with trash for 2 seconds.
>
Deaf after too many years of honking.
>Also you can ask:
>PM John Elliot of Peel Police.
>PM Reay MacKay, (One of the Judges at the Livingston Memorial Contest)
>PM Davie Caldwell
>PS Gregg Abbot ( gold Medalist)
Deaf, deaf, deaf, and deaf. Has-beens, washed up players (probably due to that
gibslop they were playing.)
>Here's a just few guys that know what sound is, so your story about
>Gibson Drones is pure conjecture.
He named a specific instance, you just WISH it wasnt true.
> You put up a set of Gibson pipes
>next to a Kron set and Gibson will blow it out of the water every time.
Yeah, if your UNDERWATER maybe...
>It did 7 years ago in a contest and it still does it today!
You lieing piece of crap! AG was waiting for you with his Krons, and you never
showed. Kron did NOT EVEN EXIST 7 years ago! Your lies are pretty pathetic
rapo.
>I'll even post the results of that contest if that's what it takes!
He means a rigged recording? HA! He used Hendersons and called them Gibslops.
>You can't argue with that! LOL
>
Just did.
Bill
John Mitchell
Royce Lerwick <pmle...@mn.mediaone.net> wrote in
> Nobody of course made any legal charges against Jerry Gibson.
> Interesting that he responds with a legal defense and not a specific
> answer to the scenario given, which was essentially an ethical one.
So what's legal about harrassment or defamation of character?
Posting constant negative comments about Jerry Gibson's Business,
Service, Quality and Tone and now this latest gossip against his personal
character is pretty good grounds for a legal suite.
Before anyone of you hits that next "SEND" button to degrade his business,
you bloody well better have positive proof to back up your statement.
This situation is getting ugly, but it has come to this point for a reason!
As Jerry says, you don't want to be spending time and money defending
yourselves in a court of Law. Is it really worth it? Can you afford the
debt?
Take heed, if only just one of you continues, then all will be issued
with court summons to make it worth Jerry's time.
Even in the words of your fearless leader:
"I prefer to let the bagpipe community wallow in its
own ignorance.I have seen it all,and all too often.Scams,lies,
disinformation,myths,crooked sales practices,and blatant thievery.
I'll leave the politics to the politicians.I prefer to be the maker
of the finest GHB's ever made."
Dave Atherton...pipemaker for CE KRON&CO
Well crooked sales practices and misinformation is what's going
on here and while Jerry doesn't boast to be the finest pipemaker that
ever lived, he shouldn't have to put up with the crap
that's been written about him on this NG.
It costs nothing for anyone to create a post for the purpose of trashing
Gibson Bagpipes, but it heavily costs Jerry's hard earned reputation
that took him 20 years to build and he is sickened by what is printed about
him.
Oh and rest assure, that if any of you think that Gibson pipes will fade
away
when Jerry retires soon, his son Richard and the seven other Gibson
Employees
will continue on with the Gibson tradition.
BTW, if you've ever met Richard, he isn't exactly a people person either
and he doesn't take kindly to what's being said about his father! :-o
So it's up to you guys, we can settle this in the Courts, the Alley or over
a friendly beer in the beer tent, but this Gibson bashing has to stop.
It's not funny anymore!
Tim Sullivan
over
> a friendly beer in the beer tent, but this Gibson bashing has to stop.
Let me see if I understand this. Somehow it is OK for you to bash Kron
and every other pipe maker out there, but it is wrong for *anyone* to relate
their personal experiences with Gibson if they are the least negative. Can
that be right?
Tell you what. You start by trying to objective about the other makes
of pipes out there and I, for one, will let bye-gones be bye-gones regarding
my eperience(s) with Gibson. Otherwise - forget it.
Bill
Oh, you mean THE EXACT THING YOU DO TO KRONS?????? How about your most famous
quote: "Krons are shiiite" remember that one? You are a hippocrite, at least I
speak from my heart about facts from dozens of posts here saying "Gibslop
sucks", or "customer service blows", or "my tenor drones dont even match", and
the list goes on and on, yet you fail to prove your side with ONE SINGLE TINY
piece of real evidence, while real people come out telling of bad experiences
with Gibslop pipes, you can only call Krons stupid names because there is no
crap to find on them.
>Posting constant negative comments about Jerry Gibson's Business,
>Service, Quality and Tone and now this latest gossip against his personal
>character is pretty good grounds for a legal suite.
They werent comments, they were facts from unhappy customers. You going to sue
everyone who doesnt like his product?
>As Jerry says, you don't want to be spending time and money defending
>yourselves in a court of Law. Is it really worth it? Can you afford the
>debt?
Can he afford too? Can he afford to sue people when he knows he will loose?
Your a jerk Mitchell, nobody believes your stupid, petty, outright ridiculous
threats. What kind of drugs do you guys get out there? Must be awful good
stuff...
>Take heed, if only just one of you continues, then all will be issued
>with court summons to make it worth Jerry's time.
LMAO!!! OMG! I'm psychic! Hes going to sue "all" of us LMFAO!!! You guys should
be embarassed to go out in public, you are such fools trying to scare everyone
with your idiotic threats of lawsuits. Oh yeah John, wheres that lawyer you
hired in Mass to get me? Gee, its been a year now, I know you said it was going
to take awhile, but gee, I'm starting to think your a liar. Hey Lindsay, wheres
your lawyer? The one that was coming after me with Johns lawyer? A whole
year... idiots.
>I have seen it all,and all too often.Scams,lies,
>disinformation,myths,crooked sales practices,and blatant thievery.
Gee, who in the bagpipe making community would fit the above statement, made
long before the most recent rip-off occured? Seems a very wise man made that
statement.
>Well crooked sales practices and misinformation is what's going
>on here
Well its about time you admitted it. Now dont you feel better? I bet your blood
pressure dropped 30pts just by admitting your sins. Theres still hope for you
John, maybe if you talk to Charlie and Dave they can have you help out in the
shop (nail everything down Dave) and you can work tords aquiring a set of Krons
(since we know your too broke to afford them) I mean Dave maybe still able to
save your soul.
>and while Jerry doesn't boast to be the finest pipemaker that
>ever lived,
Now THAT would involve libel and slander!
>It costs nothing for anyone to create a post for the purpose of trashing
>Gibson Bagpipes, but it heavily costs Jerry's hard earned reputation
>that took him 20 years to build and he is sickened by what is printed about
>him.
Oh really? Lets hope he can prove damages, because he would need to to sue, and
of course then he would have to be able to collect LOLOLOLOL
>Oh and rest assure, that if any of you think that Gibson pipes will fade
>away
>when Jerry retires soon, his son Richard and the seven other Gibson
>Employees
>will continue on with the Gibson tradition.
You had to dash our hopes?
>BTW, if you've ever met Richard, he isn't exactly a people person either
>and he doesn't take kindly to what's being said about his father! :-o
>
Ugh, ugh! (More big canadian-type grunting)
>So it's up to you guys, we can settle this in the Courts,
You'd loose.
>the Alley
Were not offering to have sex with you, not in the alley (even though
technically it is your bedroom) or anywhere else, and i'm WAY too big to hold
down.
> or over
>a friendly beer in the beer tent,
Sounds like fun! See you there!
>It's not funny anymore!
>
Ohhhh please stop! your scaring me so...
Bill
Bill
>and every other pipe maker out there, but it is wrong for *anyone* to relate
>their personal experiences with Gibson if they are the least negative. Can
>that be right?
To him, yes.
>Tell you what. You start by trying to objective about the other makes
>of pipes out there and I, for one, will let bye-gones be bye-gones regarding
>my eperience(s) with Gibson. Otherwise - forget it.
Thats all I ever asked of him, to stop bashing Kron, but he cant/wont, so he
gets it right back in his face, and look at the cry baby whine like a little
school girl who got her hair pulled.
Bill
John Mitchell
Bill <mrrob...@aol.com> wrote in
> Thats all I ever asked of him, to stop bashing Kron, but he cant/wont, so
he
> gets it right back in his face, and look at the cry baby whine like a
little
> school girl who got her hair pulled.
Must be wonderful to possess a child's mind!
Bill
Yes, it allows you to live with (sponge-off of) a Crawley brother, while
avoiding taxes, meaningful employment, a permanent address, child support, old
arrest warrants, and all the while telling us what a bunch of loosers we are.
Bill
Bill
Bill
Chris Hamilton
>You lieing piece of crap! AG was waiting for you with his Krons, and you never
>showed. Kron did NOT EVEN EXIST 7 years ago! Your lies are pretty pathetic
>rapo.
I am so tired of this. Jerry Gibson makes a fine bagpipe. Not
everyone's cup of tea, but so what? And he's a nice guy, I've known
him for over 15 years. He's been very kind to me and I've learned a
lot by talking to him.
I'm a Kron dealer, not a Gibson dealer, but I respect the man and his
product. I hate to see mindless bashing by someone with no credentials
to do so.
Kron certainly DID exist seven years ago. It's unfortunate that their
pipe scored so low in that review. I'm mystified by that myself. Seven
years ago I'd never even seen or heard a set of Krons so I can't speak
much on that matter, but I'll put the recent / current product up
against anything.
The world is big enough for Kron and Gibson.
Chris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Christopher Hamilton -- ToneCzar Inc.
ch...@toneczar.com -- www.toneczar.com
John Mitchell
Tim Sullivan <shen...@REMOVEflash.net> wrote in
> Let me see if I understand this. Somehow it is OK for you to bash
Kron
> and every other pipe maker out there, but it is wrong for *anyone* to
relate
> their personal experiences with Gibson if they are the least negative.
Can
> that be right?
OK Tim lets be truthful here. Are you seriously going to tell this NG that
Kron
was a premier sounding bagpipe for the past 20 years. Up until I came on the
scene
here some 4 years ago, C E Kron company was producing a chanter that
was flatter than a piss on a plate. Since then they have done some major
design
changes and brought the pitch up, but that doesn't automatically qualify
them
for making the best chanter. Their so called Power chanter (phenolic) is
just
another knock off of a Sinclair, but I sure as hell wouldn't pay the
$300bucks
they want for it and it is still produces a dull sound.
That's why Jim is working with them to get a Different chanter made
and with his help, they just might have a chance. Chanter designing
is no easy task with the many variables involved, but at least Jim
has an ear for tone and he can tell them if their headed in the right
direction.
My other point was that the drones are too quiet with no boom in the bass
to create that rich sound.
These findings were also the same in the P&D drone survey!
Think what I'll do is actually post that survey in which the survey states
that they would not recommend CE Kron pipes at the time.
I didn't write that, it's in print!
> Tell you what. You start by trying to objective about the other makes
> of pipes out there and I, for one, will let bye-gones be bye-gones
regarding
> my eperience(s) with Gibson. Otherwise - forget it.
What was the big problem Tim, you had to wait a little longer to get your
Pipes
from the Gibson Shop because he had an 8 month back log.
From what I here, somebody on this NG was bragging that Kron pipes have
a 1 year backlog now. That maybe bullshit, but if it is the truth then they
will be experiencing the same problems as when Jerry first started up.
When players comment about chanters, reeds or drones being a piece of shite,
their commenting on the sound and that's where it stops.
They don't go on and on about the pipe maker being of bad character or their
business practices are not ethical.
What do you know of other pipe makers personal lives?
Booth
Souter
Naill
Shepherd
Fletcher
MacMurchie
Tweedy
Sinclair
MacLellan
MacCallum
Dunbar
Hardie
You here nothing about these people on this NG! Why?
Do they run a perfect business and have no product rejects?
Where do you think they got their designs from?
If they are all pipe makers and not engineers, then they must have
copied a design from somewhere. Possibly their former
employer, now is that ethical?
Their are a few people on this NG who take great delight
in trashing Jerry Gibson's company every day! Why is that?
I'll tell you why, he makes such a great product that they'll say
anything to try and discredit him.
I'm one of Krons biggest critics, so again they try to discredit my
reputation
as a player and would have you think that I don't know what I'm talking
about.
After playing under the likes of PM's Ed Neigh, Sandy Keith, John Elliot and
the toughest one of them all Jake Watson, you would think that I would have
to have a small clue, in order to last any amount of time in those circles.
I'm not saying that I'm a great piper, but I am one hell of a bandsman.
I love pipebands and that's where Gibson products have filled a need
on this side if of the pond.
There's nobody else that can touch him!
BTW congrats to the Tolluch Ard gr2 PB on their last win.
Hope the chanters are working out fine for you! :-)
Jginmd
>Here's your answer!
>When posts like the one below magically appear just to degrade and
>discredit
>Jerry Gibson's product.
It's not magic. It's the Internet. And the intention of the post was to share
information. If it was the only story of its kind it would be interesting. If
it is one of many, as you say, it is damning. I guess it gained impact as it
was the latter but that was not my intention. I have heard that Jerry Gibbson
is a pretty nice guy from several people (not including you) I have no idea.
I don't know if he still does but I have heard it said that he used to have a
good relationship with Kron (or the Kron shop) and would call from time to time
for advice, a second opinion, just to chat or instruction, et.c.
That was when George Kilgour was there so maybe they were friends or
something. I don't know and it doesn't really matter. I think that if pipe
makers communicated more, we would all benefit. For example; Mr. Gibbson might
not have used those specs for his bass drone. Boothe might not have used those
specs for his bushes. Gillander&McLeod might not have used such a large bore or
Hardie such a small one. All mistakes in my opinion.
>It's interesting that a number of your posts only
>appear to
>make negative comments about Gibson pipes.
>
It is true that in a thread about Gibbsons I wouldn't tend to talk about some
other pipe. I've knocked Naille drones on this ng too.
>If Gibson Drones are so untunable and loud, then why did
>PM Jake Watson play them for years?
Because he liked them? Because he got a good set? Because he got a bad set and
had it fixed? Because they were given as a gift and he didn't want to offend
the giver? Because they were the only pipes he had or could afford and so he
made due? I have no idea.
With an inconsistent product, you can't judge by the one bad one I saw or the
(I assume) good one Mr. Watson played. Besides, if the dimensions of a bagpipe
from any maker change enough for the ferrules to fall off, the interior has
most likely changed such that it is no longer the pipe the maker intended to
produce. That could mean an awesome maker might make a shitty set or a shitty
maker might make an awesome set. Who's to say?
>If Gibson Drones are so untunable and loud, then why did
>PM Jake Watson play them for years?
>Jake is a very tough customer
>when it comes to sound and he wouldn't put up with trash for >2 seconds.
>
>Also you can ask:
>PM John Elliot of Peel Police.
>PM Reay MacKay, (One of the Judges at the Livingston Memorial Contest)
>PM Davie Caldwell
>PS Gregg Abbot ( gold Medalist)
This veracity by association argument is so stupid. What I find incredible is
the amount of time, effort and energy you spend as a (Clinton) Gibbson
appologist. Tell Mr. Gibbson himself or any of his sons to get on this ng.
Christ there are seven (?) of them. I'm sure they could explain some of the
things that people have asked about on this ng. Madman did appear on this ng
for a long time but I don't think anyone ever had a question about sound,
function, quality, customer service, or athetics of Kron's product.
>You put up a set of Gibson pipes
>next to a Kron set and Gibson will blow it out of the water every time.
Every pipe that Gibbson makes would "blow" every set Kron makes "out of the
water"?
There are only five ways to have this kind of argument:
1. Sound
2. Quality of workmanship and materials
3. Function (i.e. how easy is it to reed up and tune)
4. Appearance
5. Customer service
1. Sound is a matter of taste and therefore cannot be argued. Period.
2. There can be no argument along these lines. It can be posed as a question
and there are only four answers:
A. Better
B. Not as good
C. Equal
D. One or both are variable to tell (This would however mean that
the quality CONTROL was
poor)
3. There can be no question about this either. It is a matter of physics. It
can be answered with a pencil and a calculator.
4. This is a matter of taste and cannot, therefore, be argued.
5. This is not an argument to have either. There can only be anecdotal
information gathered. You can't argue with someone who got good service that
they didn't. The converse is true.
So, along what lines are you arguing that Gibbson will blow Kron out of the
water? All I hear from you every time I see your stuff on this ng is that
Gibbson is great, Kron is trash and the proof is that so and so plays Gibbson.
Thats no argument at all.
>You can't argue with that!
I just did.
Let me try it like this though. It should be about your speed:
Oh, yeah! Well, my pipes are better then yyour pipes and yoor pipes suck
because all you do is come on here and caste aspirations on Mr. Kron and your
just lucky to have a master pipe maker on this side of the pond. If Krons suck
so bad how come the likes of world class players like Alister Gillies plays
them? And how come Jim McGillevery and Chris Hamilton indorse there pipes? Just
shut the fuck up and play! You don't know tone. You haven't been in the grade
one circles in a long, long time. Things have changed. The quality of playing
is much higher then it was twenty years ago when you might have got a prize at
some piddley little games where there were only three grades at that time. Two
was begginers, One was intermediet and open was advanced. What passed for
compitent playing yesterday doesn't impress anyone today. Get out on the boards
and prove you have what it takes.
How come you wimped out when Gillies invited you to play your pipes to compare
sound? You were too chicken shit!
The preceding was intended to parody you on this ng. It isn't too attractive
is it. And it doesn't make any sense. I will not be reading the group for a few
weeks as I will be maintaining the quality of my playing. If you would like to
email any response, feel free. I will not be reading the ng.
JGS
jgi...@aol.com
Wheres your lawyers John
>Souter
>Naill
>Shepherd
>Fletcher
>MacMurchie
>Tweedy
>Sinclair
>MacLellan
>MacCallum
>Dunbar
>Hardie
>
>You here nothing about these people on this NG! Why?
>Do they run a perfect business and have no product rejects?
Every one of these has been trashed on this NG at least once, some many times.
>Their are a few people on this NG who take great delight
>in trashing Jerry Gibson's company every day! Why is that?
>
BECAUSE OF YOUR BIG MOUTH...get it?????
>I'll tell you why, he makes such a great product that they'll say
>anything to try and discredit him.
Oh sure, all those unhappy customers, all those people who need rockets in
their gibslops because they sound soooo good? Theres a flaw in that logic, but
hey, that never stopped you before.
>From what I here, somebody on this NG was bragging that Kron pipes have
>a 1 year backlog now. That maybe bullshit, but if it is the truth then they
>will be experiencing the same problems as when Jerry first started up.
That was mentioned in the context of repair work, completely unrelated to GHB
making, or customer service. At Kron they are smart enough not to hire
*illegals* or *high school kids* to run the lathes, and instead will hire
competent help if its needed, not ignore people.. Those charges were not posted
by me either.
John Smith
Wheres your lawyers John? Wheres your lawyers John? Wheres your lawyers John?
Wheres your lawyers John? Wheres your lawyers John? Wheres your lawyers John?
Wheres your lawyers John? Wheres your lawyers John? Wheres your lawyers John?
Wheres your lawyers John
>to do so.
>
I figured you would spit up some vomit. 99% of what I posted was first posted
here by the people who had these problems, but like one of "the good ole boys"
you bring up "credentials" to try to ignore the facts. Very predictable.
John Mitchell
Jginmd <jgi...@aol.com> wrote in
> Let me try it like this though. It should be about your speed:
>
> Oh, yeah! Well, my pipes are better then yyour pipes and yoor pipes suck
It's interesting How this NG works, here's a post I found where
I was actually supporting you!
You know at one time I actually defended BD on this NG from
his stupid paki Jokes and constant pokes at people too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
From: JOHN MITCHELL (stcl...@ciaccess.com)
Subject: Re: BAGPIPE> Pipes are Pipes (was Review)
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.bagpipe
Date: 1998/10/06
So, why is John(JGS) being tied to the whipping post, for stating the
truth.
It is quite true that 98% of all pipers out there, are rank Amateur
Musicians,
compared to the Contemporary Performers.
I know of professional musicians who can look at a 2/4 march and
play it perfectly within 15 minutes, while I know some pipers who are
still fumbling with the same piece after 3 months. Some might even
take a couple of years. A 5 minute medley can take all winter.
As far as reeds go, Alot of people are still in the dark, due to the
lack of information available to them. The reed makers always
kept there techniques very secret. (Typical Scottish Backward thinking).
Most other instruments have published books on how to make reeds
for instance: Irish pipers usually have to make their own reeds.
I know players who claim they have been competing for 20 years, but to
listen to them, you would never know it. They haven't got a clue about
phrasing
or expression. Setting up pipes in terms of tone and pitch is questionable
as
well.
I played the Clarinet in High School, while this did nothing for my playing
on the pipes, It vastly helped me out with the understanding of music.
Understanding music is what most pipers clearly lack in their performance.
The biggest problem I have with the piping community's mentality, is that
we
tend
to take every item of information and dissect it to death. As if it has to
be
proven
and then written down in some Scientific manual and then followed
religiously
and
no rule shall be broken.
While true musicians are not known for their organization skills, at least
they have a true understanding of the music they play, this to me is
professionalism.
The piping community has a very long way to go before it can call
itself professional. John has the advantage of playing other instruments
and has merely given a different view.
I think the majority of players here, just need to worry about their own
playing, most of them are lucky if they can even tune thier own
drones.(properly)
Worrying about the dynamics of pipe making should be the last thing on
their agenda.
If you've played for 10 years and proven yourself in the top grades,
then we'll be glad to listen to you. Until then give this guy a break.
He sounds like a guy you might be able to learn something from.
John Mitchell
Toronto
John Mitchell
Chris Hamilton <ch...@toneczar.com> wrote in
>
> >You lieing piece of crap! AG was waiting for you with his Krons, and you
never
> >showed. Kron did NOT EVEN EXIST 7 years ago! Your lies are pretty
pathetic
> >rapo.
>
> I am so tired of this. Jerry Gibson makes a fine bagpipe. Not
> everyone's cup of tea, but so what? And he's a nice guy, I've known
> him for over 15 years. He's been very kind to me and I've learned a
> lot by talking to him.
Thanks for saying that Chris and I'm really tired of it too!
Jerry is a nice guy and a very smart man who doesn't deserve this treatment.
> Kron certainly DID exist seven years ago. It's unfortunate that their
> pipe scored so low in that review. I'm mystified by that myself. Seven
> years ago I'd never even seen or heard a set of Krons so I can't speak
> much on that matter, but I'll put the recent / current product up
> against anything.
Perhaps 7 years ago it was a completely different instrument than
what it is today. If I was a kron Dealer, I sure would be asking
this question. I don't think the judges would intentially try to hurt
any of the makers involved, but it was a fair evaluation done by top
players.
To tell you the truth, I had never actually read that article until 2 weeks
ago,
but I was shocked as the comments are so contrary to what Dave Atherton
boasts today.
Then again, he's only been with the company for 5 years now and that
probably wasn't his work, so Dave Atherton would have every right to rename
the company to Atherton Pipes if he is to be credited for saving the
company.
> The world is big enough for Kron and Gibson.
>
> Chris
Perhaps Chris, but I do wish all my competitors did play Kron products! ;-)
See you at Fort Erie!
cheers
John
Bpiper3981
bagpipes) Davidson trap. He has no ability to play the pipes but he has the
ability to piss everyone off, enough for them to write long post defending this
or that. I have been one of his victims in the past, but not any more . He
would be a good act for the WWF the guy everyone loves to hate. the Kron vs
Gibson debate is simple, you may like one or the other or both for that matter.
the very fact that both are still in business says a lot for each. The buying
public will sort this out in the long run it has in the past and it will again
in the future. But Bill Davidson is just a limp dick trying to drag us down to
his level of misery. He does not play, he does not play with a band, he does
not compete in solo's. Therefoer has no credibility He is just a sad lonely guy
who is metally ill, we should really just pitty Bill ( I wish I could play
bagpipes ) Davidson, he wants so badly to be able to play and gets fustrated he
can't so he takes it out on the NG.His trashing of Gibson pipes can't hurt
Jerry but I know for a fact it has hurt Kron. Good luck to you Billy I hope you
get well soon, I am sure the women and the children around your home wish you
get well soon also
Cheers
GS>>>>>>>>>
Royce Lerwick
<sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Royce Lerwick <pmle...@mn.mediaone.net> wrote in
>> Nobody of course made any legal charges against Jerry Gibson.
>> Interesting that he responds with a legal defense and not a specific
>> answer to the scenario given, which was essentially an ethical one.
>
>So what's legal about harrassment or defamation of character?
I'll have to modify my statement, to include, nobody but Bill, but
then, he's entitled as the NG nutballer. Bill needs Thorazine, not a
lawsuit.
>
>Posting constant negative comments about Jerry Gibson's Business,
>Service, Quality and Tone and now this latest gossip against his personal
>character is pretty good grounds for a legal suite.
I don't think it has anything to do with gossip, as the source of the
story is very direct and first-person. I for one can't name that
first-person for fear of Jerry's frivolous legal tirade, as we've
learned from sad experience in the past, that those who name witnesses
in their defense, find those witnesses listed in the suit. I think
this is very unwise and if pursued, would not in any way help Jerry
Gibson.
>Before anyone of you hits that next "SEND" button to degrade his business,
>you bloody well better have positive proof to back up your statement.
OK, here's my proof, all of it from personal experience with his
personal products, followed by a few questions that will Jerry the
opportunity to respond to these "rumors" in a constructive and
forthright way:
1 My first knowledge of Jerry Gibson began in about 1981 or 82,
when I was PM of a band in Utah, just elevated to grade 2 in the
PCPBA, now the WUSPBA. I heard a set of his chanters being played in
grade three by a competitor's band that year, and after inquiring got
some literature from somewhere, which was promoting the "Gibson True
Tone Chanter." This chanter was billed as being sealed in the throat
to prevent the wood from swelling while playing and making the
upperhand go sharp. As the physics of this are absurd and backwards,
and as sealing the wood fundamentally changes the tone, I wrote Gibson
a letter asking about this process outlining the above concerns and
asking for clarification. Gibson did not reply, however, the following
year I was approached by the PM of the Gibson playing band out in
California, who informed me that Jerry Gibson had contacted him with
some sort of probing interview asking the question, quote: "Who the
hell is this asshole, Royce Lerwick." Who I was, was the first grade 2
PM anywhere in the world even slightly interested in playing his
chanter, and had he bothered to reply, I would have bought several
sets, and my attitude might have entirely changed.
Note: Gibson dropped the absurd claims on this score, as they were
embarassingly naive if not just plain ignorant, and also dropped the
use of the "True Tone" moniker almost immediately after. I was,
obviously, disinclined to thereafter believe much of his promotional
boastings.
2 My second contact with the Gibson product, was in late 94 or
early 95, when I purchased a second-hand set of Gibson chanters,
having moved back to Minnesota. These chanters were quite good in
general, but really only shone in an outstanding sense with a
MacAllister reed in them. Otherwise, they were not much to brag about
and had intonational problems. Then Davy Caldwell's reeds came into my
knowledge, and these too worked very well in the Gibson chanter, with
the exception that high G was sharp and always needed tape.
MacAllisters went out of business, and thus the Caldwell was left as
the only reed of choice.
3 My third contact Gibson product was with a brand new 97
chanter, which I purchased off a local player who'd tried it for solo
work, and found it would not play strong tone and was prone to
squeaking with every reed tried. This chanter was in fact, the
replacement chanter Gibson had sent out to this local player, because
the first chanter had a huge series of checks running from the bell up
toward the low G hole. (I doubt Jerry Gibson would want his testimony
read or given in court.) I found on this replacement chanter, a
knot/pin/worm hole just below the high A at about E level, and after
filling that with superglue it played very well indeed, with a much
wider variety of reeds.
4 My fourth contact with Gibson product (apart from casually
seeing several sets throughout) was when a set showed up in one of the
local bands I play with. The first impression I had was, "Another set
of Paki damned drones" when I went around the circle to tune. Then I
realized they were Gibsons. I found the basic design clumsy and close
to ugly, the material used for mountings in particular was not
bordering on ugly, but crossed that border and was well into the ugly
range. This particular set looks like good wood and the tone is indeed
rather loud compared to other pipes in the group, and they do use more
air than most. In my opinion, there is no credible excuse for using
this mounting material for one, unless it is imperative that something
strong be used to prevent splitting that otherwise might happen due to
the sort of end-checking I've observed in other Gibson wood.
5 Gibson now claims that *I* or at least those listed in his
grab-bag of a legal threat, do nothing but slander and libel and
denigrate his product and himself. I've done nothing but accurately
describe his product or his own conduct. Furthermore, slander or libel
has to be false. It also has to be wrought knowing it was false, with
malice and forethought. What we see on the other hand, is that every
statement I've made has been in direct response to wild, bold
assertions made by Gibson Himself, or you, his promoter. Apart from
these responses, or personal experience, I have made comments based on
the information given to me by very knowledgeable people who have
described his actions, or particularly, his "shop" who works in it,
what his process is, and the appearance of his raw material supply.
Since Gibson seems most irritated at these latest allusions, some
questions for Jerry Gibson:
1 The Gibson web site, and indeed Gibson Himself has made
numerous claims that his drone design was a true reproduction of Colin
MacLellan's famous MacDougalls. MacClellan denied in this NG any
connection to Gibson and had no knowledge that Gibson had his pipes in
for that purpose or long enough to accomplish it in any case. Gibson
withdrew the claim. What's the story?
a Gibson since then has issued the claim "No man knows
my geometry" in reference to his products. This creates two logical
paradoxes, one, does this imply the original claim of copying the
MacLellan drones was not true and just for promotion, when in fact the
internal geometry was rather different, and two, does this also imply
that Gibson's claim to have designed his chanter after a "Sinclair" is
also just for promotional purposes, where the chanter itself has
indeed not demonstrated a great similarity over the years to the
Sinclair it was supposed to have been copied from? If the chanter was
a copy of a Sinclair, was it just a general, loose copy that played
well, but had its own quirks, or was the geometry intentionally
altered, so that it was not indeed the Sinclair it was claimed to be
for promotional purposes?
2 Gibson originally claimed to be sealing chanter bores as a
great innovation and advance in a "True Tone" design that wouldn't
change as you played it. Could Mr. Gibson now please expound upon the
logic and physics of his claims that the chanter throat swells shut
while you play and makes the upperhand go sharp, and that sealing the
bore with ? will improve this behavior and presumably the tone of the
chanter? Is this process still being done? If not, why not? Was this
claim just for promotional purposes, or did it have a given,
predictable, and desireable effect? Was this claim proven false, the
process inneffectual, and the scheme abandoned?
3 Gibson claims his mounting material is chosen because of it's
indestructability. Inasmuch as this has not been a problem for any
other pipe maker in several hundred years and up to the present with
real ivory and a variety of actually beautiful replacements, and
inasmuch as the Gibson material is cheap, ugly, and makes the pipes
look like they were made in Pakistan, why the continued use of the
material? Is there some reason Gibson products need this additional
binding strength to prevent end checking?
4 Inasmuch as Gibson claims he is being singled out for attack
without cause by a few people in the NG, why then have there in fact
been a rather large number of subscribers posting on with significant
quality control, and customer service complaints, including delivery
times, cracking, checking, warping, dissimilar parts, etc.? Why did
John Mitchell, chief promoter, even concede to all of the latter even
in his most recent posts, IE: "there may have been problems in the
past..." and then only go on to assert that these problems no longer
exist, and not that they never existed?
5 Gibson claims there is a worldwide shortage of good wood, yet
those who have been to his shop claim his own wood supply is meager
and inadequate at best. Furthermore, other makers seem to find a
never-ending supply of really great wood at their disposal. Why is
this?
6 Gibson claims I and others have never singled out any other
makers, yet I personally totally wrote off Pettigrew for an exploding
set a student of mine just bought on my recommendation for a "cheap"
starter set. Atherton has frequently written off Sharpe and Co, and
several others.
7 Gibson claims that all Gibson products are made by Himself on
His Own premises. Those who have been to his shop claim that youthful
employees dominate his workforce, and indeed, rather a lot of his
products are manufactured on sub-contract to a machine shop next door.
What is the arrangement in this regard?
8 Gibson claims to manufacture products to close tolerances, yet
on his own web site outlines a chanter drilling process that drills
the holes first, then turns the chanter, which inherently leaves a
broken chip at every hole, meaning the tool takes a bigger bite out of
the back edge of every hole as it bites in again, which requires
extensive sanding of every chanter to remove these artifacts and
imperfections, meaning there is no tolerance being observed in effect.
Does Gibson in fact sand every part that comes off a lathe in his
shop--or rather, have his latheworkers sand every part? This is a
claim again, made by those who have been to his shop and claim to have
seen the operation.
9 Jerry Gibson claims to have nothing to do with setting up Mark
Lee to take care of a problem with North Coast Gibson drones, and then
essentially stealing the R&D work from him.
a Did Jerry Gibson escort Mark Lee around and get him
connected with the problem at North Coast?
b Did Jerry Gibson examine or evaluate reeds produced by
Mark Lee as a result?
c Did Jerry Gibson or his agents or persons known to
him, reproduce Lee's work, and then present these to Jerry Gibson for
consideration?
d Is Jerry Gibson planning to produce a synthetic reed
for his own pipes--not the world, just his own pipes?
e Is Jerry Gibson planning to accept in concert with a
third party, a synthetic reed for his own pipes or a generic drone
reed?
>This situation is getting ugly, but it has come to this point for a reason!
>
>As Jerry says, you don't want to be spending time and money defending
>yourselves in a court of Law. Is it really worth it? Can you afford the
>debt?
Odds are you could either defend yourself pro-se indefinitely for very
little, or easily get pro-bono defense and in either case have myself
for one out of the suit for the cost of a stamp and a half-hour's
typing.
>Take heed, if only just one of you continues, then all will be issued
>with court summons to make it worth Jerry's time.
If Jerry wants to respond here he's perfectly entitled to answer the
questions and statements I've made. If he doesn't, then his previous
rantings which are irrelevant to the case and simply fall into the
category of just more promotional boasting simply prove I've responded
to his claims, not initiated malicious attack. So, I suggest Jerry act
like a reasonable human being and when questions arise in this forum,
he simply respond to them specifically in this forum, rather than
merely ranting as a "chosen" superior above the fray, a "design
innovator" who finds simple questions beneath him.
I've said several times that these sorts of criticisms should be used
by Gibson to improve his product and its marketability, which he has
recently shown some progress on. Threatening to sue people for
observing that the mounting material he uses looks like recycled milk
jugs is not a constructive move. If he wants to be taken seriously as
a world-class pipe maker, we shouldn't have to point this out to him.
He should be able to look at his own pipes and say, "Good grief, those
mountings look cheesy!" There isn't and hasn't been a single person in
the NG who hasn't been able to see that at first glance.
Remember, some 20 years ago, he was nothing and nobody, and nobody was
playing his chanter, his only product, and he still told a grade 2 PM
in the top two or three on the West Coast to basically piss off, and
went around calling him an "asshole" in front of fellow PM's all over
the West Coast, simply because he was asked a question about why he
was sealing the throats of his "True Tone Chanters" and what he was
sealing it with. I may still be an asshole, but I'm a very dubious
asshole when it comes to the product claims of One Jerry Gibson for
reasons defined by Jerry Gibson personally, and his products
themselves.
The absolute defense to libel or slander is Truth. All I've done is
tell the truth, or try to discover it as accurately as one can,
concerning a man so secretive and mysterious in his claims and
promotions.
Royce
(Does Jerry Gibson really want several of the world's most noted
pipers and pipe makers, reed makers, and people who deal daily with
the absolute top of the piping world, testifying in court, exactly
what their impressions are of his products and operations? Does he
really want to instigate a worldwide solicitation of every complaint
any customer has ever had against a Gibson product? Because, remember,
it doesn't matter who's using his latest, who they are or how happy
they are, because to defend this suit, all anyone has to do is come up
with a handful of disgruntled Gibson customers who can attest to
materials, customer service, delivery, quality of workmanship, or any
other problem. My suggestion is you stop being his mouthpiece and he
stop making these aggrandized claims about design and engineering
superiority. They sound good if you like the sound, but that's where
it ends.)
Phantom Pipe Band:
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/118/sfu.html
Digital Warrior:
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/83/royce_lerwick.html
Zetland Tunebook, PM's Handbook:
shetlandpiper.com
Zetland Pipes:
www.royceworld.com at:
http://www.haxxed.com/~royce/ (temp)
Royce Lerwick
Of course you have to remember John's frequent trashing of the world
of piping except Gibson products, a very good point. But more than
that, I think you'll find Mr. Gibson has been very open in his own
criticism of some other World pipe makers, both here, and very
pointedly in his own shop and circles, and any number of witnesses can
attest to his verbal assaults on some of the top names currently in
the manufacture and playing of pipes.
Royce
John Mitchell
Jginmd <jgi...@aol.com> wrote in
> >Here's your answer!
> >When posts like the one below magically appear just to degrade and
> >discredit
> >Jerry Gibson's product.
>
> It's not magic. It's the Internet. And the intention of the post was to
share
> information.
How was that information useful to anybody on this NG to help their piping?
If it was the only story of its kind it would be interesting. If
> it is one of many, as you say, it is damning. I guess it gained impact as
it
> was the latter but that was not my intention. I have heard that Jerry
Gibbson
> is a pretty nice guy from several people (not including you) I have no
idea.
Hell, we're all "NICE" people, but the way some of this shit comes off
is concerning me. It makes us all look bad!
> I don't know if he still does but I have heard it said that he used to
have a
> good relationship with Kron (or the Kron shop) and would call from time to
time
> for advice, a second opinion, just to chat or instruction, et.c.
Suprising, isn't it! Gibson bagpipes got his start at Kron! LOL
Yep it's true folks, Jerry borrowed some old tooling and got
some suggestions from Kron, but they got pretty pissed off when
he came back with a chanter that actually worked better than theirs.
I think that if pipe
> makers communicated more, we would all benefit. For example; Mr. Gibbson
might
> not have used those specs for his bass drone. Boothe might not have used
those
> specs for his bushes. Gillander&McLeod might not have used such a large
bore or
> Hardie such a small one. All mistakes in my opinion.
So if you know all the mistakes that pipe makers have made why don't you
produce
your own flawless set of pipes?
> >It's interesting that a number of your posts only
> >appear to
> >make negative comments about Gibson pipes.
> >
>
> It is true that in a thread about Gibbsons I wouldn't tend to talk about
some
> other pipe. I've knocked Naille drones on this ng too.
I don't know your involvement or relationship with kron, but you are
obviously convinced
that Kron is the only maker who knows how to make a decent set of pipes.
Bullshit!
What is he the only pipe maker that you personally know and so your sucked
in by his sales pitch?
> >If Gibson Drones are so untunable and loud, then why did
> >PM Jake Watson play them for years?
>
> Because he liked them? Because he got a good set? Because he got a bad set
and
> had it fixed? Because they were given as a gift and he didn't want to
offend
> the giver? Because they were the only pipes he had or could afford and so
he
> made due? I have no idea.
Because they were a good sounding set of pipes you Dork!
Jake wouldn't have played anything but good sounding pipes.
> With an inconsistent product, you can't judge by the one bad one I saw or
the
> (I assume) good one Mr. Watson played. Besides, if the dimensions of a
bagpipe
> from any maker change enough for the ferrules to fall off,
Ferrules were known to fall off of many pipes from Scotland due to the
climate changes here. If the wood dries out due to our hot dry climate,
then this would certainly be a problem. No maker has that kind of control
over their wood, but even threaded ferrules will come lose too.
The bonding agents used today are much more durable and flexable resulting
in a more reliable method to permanently bond 2 different materials.
As an engineer, I would prefer a chemical bond over a mechanical
bond(Threading) to join different materials as the mechanical method
is subject to material wear and will eventually breakdown.
Vibration is the enemy of mechanical fasteners! Hmmm I wonder if
drones vibrate?
> >If Gibson Drones are so untunable and loud, then why did
> >PM Jake Watson play them for years?
> >Jake is a very tough customer
> >when it comes to sound and he wouldn't put up with trash for >2 seconds.
> >
> >Also you can ask:
> >PM John Elliot of Peel Police.
> >PM Reay MacKay, (One of the Judges at the Livingston Memorial Contest)
> >PM Davie Caldwell
> >PS Gregg Abbot ( gold Medalist)
>
> This veracity by association argument is so stupid.
These top players have the Choice to play any instrument that they want in
the world,
yet they choose Gibson. It attests to the authenticity of the product in
terms of
quality and performance as players like these guys are very critical of
their instrument .
What I find incredible is
> the amount of time, effort and energy you spend as a (Clinton) Gibbson
> appologist. Tell Mr. Gibbson himself or any of his sons to get on this ng.
> Christ there are seven (?) of them. I'm sure they could explain some of
the
> things that people have asked about on this ng.
Such as?
Madman did appear on this ng
> for a long time but I don't think anyone ever had a question about sound,
> function, quality, customer service, or athetics of Kron's product.
No, Dave only spent time on here to perperuate his greatness!
I'm sure his methods of pipe making have been adopted by all
the pipe makers now, as they all didn't know how to make bagpipes properly.
Dave also must have redefined sound as we know it, to bad he
didn't have a clue that he was turning out useless junk all those years
until I clued him in with my sound experiment.
> >You put up a set of Gibson pipes
> >next to a Kron set and Gibson will blow it out of the water every time.
>
> Every pipe that Gibbson makes would "blow" every set Kron makes "out of
the
> water"?
Yea, 2 completely different designs resulting in different sounds. It's not
how well the combing and beading look, it's how the things sound that
counts.
> There are only five ways to have this kind of argument:
> 1. Sound
> 2. Quality of workmanship and materials
> 3. Function (i.e. how easy is it to reed up and tune)
> 4. Appearance
> 5. Customer service
>
> 1. Sound is a matter of taste and therefore cannot be argued. Period.
Na! players know excellent tone when they hear it!
> 2. There can be no argument along these lines. It can be posed as a
question
> and there are only four answers:
> A. Better
> B. Not as good
> C. Equal
> D. One or both are variable to tell (This would however mean that
> the quality CONTROL
was
> poor)
Depends what parameters are used. Crap wood and flaws can be covered
up by staining the wood black. Jerry doesn't do that and leaves the wood
in it's natural light brown color.
> 3. There can be no question about this either. It is a matter of physics.
It
> can be answered with a pencil and a calculator.
Better yet, put it into the hands of a lower grade player and hear
what it sounds like.
> 4. This is a matter of taste and cannot, therefore, be argued.
In general, I personally think that bagpipes are big ugly cluncky things
that sit on a persons shoulder. The publics perception of bagpipes is
their nothing but sticks with big round things on them and people look
akward playing it and having to also dress in a silly skirt when appearing
with them . No such thing as a good looking pipe.
> 5. This is not an argument to have either. There can only be anecdotal
> information gathered. You can't argue with someone who got good service
that
> they didn't. The converse is true.
Expectations is what forms peoples opinions about service. In reality, how
much
service does the average player need from a pipe maker. None!
Most players take care of their pipes, it's the ones that leave thier pipes
in hot cars
or play in cold parades and watch their pipes crack.
Then they expect a pipe maker to drop everything and fix their pipes.
> So, along what lines are you arguing that Gibbson will blow Kron out of
the
> water? All I hear from you every time I see your stuff on this ng is that
> Gibbson is great, Kron is trash and the proof is that so and so plays
Gibbson.
> Thats no argument at all.
here's my deal with Kron. They claim to make one of the best sets of pipes
because they use a thread to secure their accroutments to the wood.
Well Jolly good for them, but it still doesn't do anything to guarantee that
the dam thing will stay on if the wood changes in size.
Another thing too, if your screwing off the ferrules to clean them,
everytime
you screw the thing back on, your metal threads are chewing up the wooden
threads and you are eventually going to have to glue the dam thing on
because
the crest of the wooden thread doesn't lock into the ajoining metal thread.
From what I've seen of Krons other points of craftsman ship, they haven't
cornered the market on that either. When you look at a set of Kron pipes,
there's nothing more remarkable about them than the average set out there.
It's just hype of a good sales campaign!
Royce Lerwick
<sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Tim Sullivan <shen...@REMOVEflash.net> wrote in
>
>> Let me see if I understand this. Somehow it is OK for you to bash
>Kron
>> and every other pipe maker out there, but it is wrong for *anyone* to
>relate
>> their personal experiences with Gibson if they are the least negative.
>Can
>> that be right?
>
>OK Tim lets be truthful here. Are you seriously going to tell this NG that
>Kron
>was a premier sounding bagpipe for the past 20 years.
My own opinions with Gibson have little to do with Kron. Jerry Gibson
has been making claims as if he had a premier sounding set of pipes
for 20 years, just as you now imply he has. But let's all be honest.
20 years ago he wasn't even making drones, he was making his first
"True Tone Chanters" and nobody was playing them.
Jerry *hasn't* been making a world-class chanter for 20 years, more
like 3 or 4 years. Now, previous to that his chanters sounded good
with the right reed. Even great on occasion. But only with the right
reed--particularly the MacAllister, and then the Caldwell. It wasn't
till 1997 that he fixed his throat problems and got a chanter that
would take a lot of different reeds, which only *then* put it in a
category witht he Shepherds or Sinclairs as a real option for the big
band that wanted to develop a sound of their own.
So, it really too Jerry 20 years to get his act together even in the
tone/reedability department, which is not a sign of any superior
"design innovation," it's the track record of a guy plugging away till
he got it right in the end. If it were billed that way, I wouldn't
have any problem with it.
Royce Lerwick
>This veracity by association argument is so stupid. What I find incredible is
>the amount of time, effort and energy you spend as a (Clinton) Gibbson
>appologist. Tell Mr. Gibbson himself or any of his sons to get on this ng.
>Christ there are seven (?) of them.
Good grief yes! Instead of these constant third-party referred posts
of boilerplate rants about how great his product line is and who all
agrees they're great. He's never once actually addressed a single
specific question or complaint. The closest he's come to that is on
the wood issue, where he just generically posted some referred
articles about the massive problem getting a good piece of blackwood.
The problem with that argument, is the fact that they're still
churning out great clarinets all over the world from the stuff, and
Kron for one (sorry but that's just the fact) have blackwood every bit
as good as any every had and in good supply.
In fact, Jerry Gibson could have been the NG darling at one point had
he jumped in like Dave Atherton did. Dave did pretty good for coming
off like a complete asshole, simply because he was open, honest, and
knew his stuff and gave specific answers and criticisms. All Jerry
would have had to do was come on and be the nice-old-Jerry Gibson we
hear he is, cought up a few straight answers and be frank about his
operation, and he would have been stormed by adoring fans.
Instead, he's just been forwarding these general rants and secretly
circulating threats of lawsuits to anyone who dares speak honestly and
openly about their experiences with this product line. I've even
recommended his Fireside pipes as the best of the bunch in the "PC
with drones" plastic-reeded smallpipes lines, and then he just lumps
me into this asinine threat claiming I'm part of some conspiracy to
defame him, and him alone. It just makes him look paranoid.
Royce Lerwick
<sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Suprising, isn't it! Gibson bagpipes got his start at Kron! LOL
>Yep it's true folks, Jerry borrowed some old tooling and got
>some suggestions from Kron, but they got pretty pissed off when
>he came back with a chanter that actually worked better than theirs.
I'm sure that's how Jerry tells it. And to some extent it's true that
Gibson eventually got a chanter out ahead in the market better than
the earlier Gilgour/Kron chanters, probably due to the pitch
alterations Jerry made to follow the market trend.
But the reality is, from what *I've* heard, when he started trying to
make drones he'd never even heard of a "combing tool" and even before
that he had no idea where to get serviceable blackwood for pipes. So
what he ended up doing, while all the time claiming in his promotional
materials to be an engineering genius, world-patent holder and "design
innovator," was have Kilgour and Kron show him which end of a chisel
went against the wood, and sell off some of their wood supply seconds
to get him started.
The "Kron v Gibson" debate has really remained in the same context
from the very start, as I believe Jerry Gibson continues to
demonstrate that he's playing catchup in the areas of craftsmanship
and traditional or even modern manufacturing skill, while he has
indeed managed through whatever means, to chatter and sand out some
good sounding chanters and a set of drones that if nothing else, have
found a devoted following.
The quality and workmanship of the Gilgour/Kron/CE Kron product has
however, never, ever been in question, and to this day there is
absolutely no comparison to Gibson's best work and the average,
production model Kron.
John Mitchell
Jginmd <jgi...@aol.com> wrote in
> Let me try it like this though. It should be about your speed:
Like wow man, lets do it!
> Oh, yeah! Well, my pipes are better then yyour pipes and yoor pipes suck
> because all you do is come on here and caste aspirations on Mr. Kron and
your
> just lucky to have a master pipe maker on this side of the pond.
How bout we go back to the days when we didn't have any master pipe makers
to draw from over here and work with what we were given from Scotland.
If Krons suck
> so bad how come the likes of world class players like Alister Gillies
plays
> them?
Wait, wait just a minute here, who said Alisdair plays kron pipes in a
serious contest.
Not until he lays down his vintage pipes for the Krons pipes and plays them
full time
can you concider any player legitimately endoursing their product.
Haven been given the pipes for free doesn't count either!
And how come Jim McGillevery and Chris Hamilton indorse there pipes?
Simple, money!
It's a low end product to address a certain segment of the market.
They also other makes to sell to higher end markets. Their all
fighting for market share like the rest of vendors out their.
Each with their own professional players to back them up!
Dat's the bagpipe Biz!!!!
Just
> shut the fuck up and play! You don't know tone. You haven't been in the
grade
> one circles in a long, long time.
I was in it for a lot longer than I've been out of it, but don't count me
out yet!
Hey you should try it just once and see if you can even make the cut just to
play at a GR1 practice!
> Things have changed.
Such as?
I wasn't aware that MSR's have changed or reels, Jigs and HP's have
been any different over the past 10 years. Piping sound technology
has vastly improved over the last 15 years and yes some tunes are
a little more hip, but it's still the same 12 notes. ;-)
The quality of playing
> is much higher then it was twenty years ago when you might have got a
prize at
> some piddley little games where there were only three grades at that time.
Two
> was begginers, One was intermediet and open was advanced.
You really don't know anything about the Ontario circuit!
Shows your ignorance!
What passed for
> compitent playing yesterday doesn't impress anyone today.
Oh really! So players like Duncan Johnson, Willie Ross, Chris Anderson, Ed
Neigh
were really substandard players in your opinion?
Get out on the boards
> and prove you have what it takes.
Done that already!
> How come you wimped out when Gillies invited you to play your pipes to
compare
> sound? You were too chicken shit!
You got that wrong! "I" invited Alisdair to a contest at Alma, but people
here objected
to this because they felt it was degrading to his classical nature. Why get
a man
of his stature involved in this circus? I gree!
> The preceding was intended to parody you on this ng. It isn't too
attractive
> is it. And it doesn't make any sense.
Well you are just so far superior I can hardly see you up there on top of
your nest.
Please forgive me for being so blue collar, but I'm the only player with any
balls
that has stood up for Mr. Gibson. I don't blame anybody for not wanting
to get involved in this circus, but there are 100's of players and dozens of
bands
that are enjoying the efforts of his work, but they will not say anything
here
for fear of being labeled a liar.
But anywayz, if you don't like my style just pleasantly go away and
practice!
I will not be reading the group for a few
> weeks as I will be maintaining the quality of my playing.
Shouldn't you rephrase that to "improving" your quality of playing!
Your still not there yet!
See you on the boards John Graham Sprague(JGS)
Where is the Alexandria games anyway?
John Mitchell
Royce Lerwick <pmle...@mn.mediaone.net> wrote in
> Jerry *hasn't* been making a world-class chanter for 20 years, more
> like 3 or 4 years.
Hmmmm, Your so smart Royce, you do the math!
>1 My first knowledge of Jerry Gibson began in about 1981 or 82,
>when I was PM of a band in Utah, just elevated to grade 2 in the
>PCPBA, now the WUSPBA. I heard a set of his chanters being played in
>grade three by a competitor's band that year, and after inquiring got
>some literature from somewhere, which was promoting the "Gibson True
Seems he was producing a good enough chanter back then for you
to enquire about them. Give the man his Due!
John Mitchell
> indestructability. Inasmuch as this has not been a problem for any
> other pipe maker in several hundred years and up to the present with
> real ivory and a variety of actually beautiful replacements, and
> inasmuch as the Gibson material is cheap, ugly, and makes the pipes
> look like they were made in Pakistan,
Do these pipes really look ugly or like they were made in pakistan????????
http://www.geocities.com/gibsonbagpipe
MrRobotTow
>5 Gibson now claims that *I* or at least those listed in his
>grab-bag of a legal threat, do nothing but slander and libel and
>denigrate his product and himself. I've done nothing but accurately
>describe his product or his own conduct. Furthermore, slander or libel
>has to be false. It also has to be wrought knowing it was false, with
>malice and forethought. What we see on the other hand, is that every
>statement I've made has been in direct response to wild, bold
>assertions made by Gibson Himself, or you, his promoter.
Indeed, the above statement accurately depicts the legal basis for Gibslops
claims, groundless, and unproveable. Certainly all my info (almost exclusively)
has been taken from posts on this NG by former or present customers who were
pissed off over either the crap they received, or the treatment they received
from Gibson himself. If I receive any paperwork, Mr Gibson can look forward to
receiving some from me, charging him with harrassment for filing frivelous,
unsubstantiated, and totally bogus lawsuits. I have nothing but time (which is
all he will get from me) but I doubt he can afford the price it will cost him,
so I would probably therefore end up owning Gibslop bagpipes... then my only
question would be "anyone got a match?" LOL!
MrRobotTow
>little, or easily get pro-bono defense
Indeedy-diddly-doo-dee! I get FREE legal representation. Ha ha ha!
MrRobotTow
A retouched photo is pretty pathetic. One would think you could do better than
that.
But the answer to the above question is: yes.
MrRobotTow
>to enquire about them. Give the man his Due!
I enquired as to what those broken-down, taped-together, pieces of crap that
you were shouldering were too, but it doesnt mean I liked them.
Gee John, why not a pic of YOUR gibsons on the website? Oh yeah, that would
prove my case, now wouldn't it?
MrRobotTow
Gee, your not thanking him for saying Krons are good pipes? I mean no matter
what he says, he owns Krons, and no Gibslops. So no matter what he says, that
tells a story in itself.
MrRobotTow
>
It warned them not to buy crap.
>Hell, we're all "NICE" people, but the way some of this shit comes off
>is concerning me. It makes us all look bad!
Then shut up, and it will end.
>Suprising, isn't it! Gibson bagpipes got his start at Kron! LOL
>Yep it's true folks, Jerry borrowed some old tooling and got
>some suggestions from Kron, but they got pretty pissed off when
>he came back with a chanter that actually worked better than theirs.
HA! Comical at best. Jerry Gibson ripped-off Kron. Get the real story before
you blurt out what you think might have happened, because there was a lot more
to this story than just that.
>I don't know your involvement or relationship with kron, but you are
>obviously convinced
>that Kron is the only maker who knows how to make a decent set of pipes.
He never said that.
>Because they were a good sounding set of pipes you Dork!
>Jake wouldn't have played anything but good sounding pipes.
He was lucky, and got one of the good sets. You low-life piece of shit, hurling
personal insults at the guy after he has left the NG. You are really a piece of
work.
>Ferrules were known to fall off of many pipes from Scotland due to the
>climate changes here.
His pipes ARE MADE HERE, so whats his excuse? At least try a relevant lie...
>As an engineer, I would prefer a chemical bond over a mechanical
>bond(Threading) to join different materials as the mechanical method
>is subject to material wear and will eventually breakdown.
More BS. There is no "wear" except to the hemp.
>Vibration is the enemy of mechanical fasteners! Hmmm I wonder if
>drones vibrate?
Stick one up your ass, and see!
>until I clued him in with my sound experiment.
The imaginary one?
>In reality, how
>much
>service does the average player need from a pipe maker. None!
Except for replacement pieces, new wood to replace checked and warped wood, and
in gibsons case, the list goes on and on.
>Then they expect a pipe maker to drop everything and fix their pipes.
>
Those bastards! What the hell are they thinking?
>Another thing too, if your screwing off the ferrules to clean them,
Nobodys stupid enough to do this.
Now lets get back to your "7 year lie" because you had never set eyes on, or
heard a set of Krons until mine, that was Altamont 99. So your just lieing up a
storm again. At least my claims have basis in faqs (not a misspelling, check
the Faqs for where I got my info) yours are nothing more than ridiculous,
outright lies.
MrRobotTow
>
>Simple, money!
Oh, so they are taking money to promote Kron pipes? You just went WAAAAAAY over
the line, because anyone who knows Hamilton knows your lieing (again.)
Chris Hamilton
Well, I also own a Gibson chanter, and played it in solos for nearly
four years. I switched to a Sinclair though and then a Kron.
Chris Hamilton
<sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>BD wrote:
>> If Krons suck so bad how come the likes of world class
>> players like Alister Gillies plays them?
>Wait, wait just a minute here, who said Alisdair plays kron pipes in a
>serious contest. Not until he lays down his vintage pipes for the Krons
>pipes and plays them full time an you concider any player legitimately
>endoursing their product.
Not to speak for Alasdair here, but he's got five or six sets of pipes
and every time I see him he's toting something different. But with
those old Lawries of his, hell why NOT play them in the biggies?
>Haven been given the pipes for free doesn't count either!
>
>And how come Jim McGillevery and Chris Hamilton indorse there pipes?
>
>Simple, money!
>
>It's a low end product to address a certain segment of the market.
>They also other makes to sell to higher end markets. Their all
>fighting for market share like the rest of vendors out their.
That's not true. Kron is NOT one of the less expensive bagpipes out
there, not by a long shot. Because of the extra expense of using real
silver on every set, because of the extra labor time involved in
manufacture, they're not low-priced. Less expensive than some, more
expensive than others.
Here's the full true story of how I got involved with Kron.
Sometime in 1998, Dave Atherton sent me a chanter to try out. I loved
the sound, but the pitch was too low. It was well below the Shepherd
Mark 2 that the band was playing, and consequently I don't like to
have vastly differing pitches for one and the other - too much drone
hassle and ear adjustment. So I sent it back. He made me a
higher-pitched one, right on w/ the Mark 2, but it lacked the depth of
sound the original one did. So I sent that back.
Now a couple of years previously a similar thing had happened with me
and Gibson. His chanter was pitched well above the Mark 2 and, for the
same reasons above, I found it unsuitable for my use. In 1997 he came
out with a mid-pitched model that exactly matched the band setup and
so I wound up buying one and using it for several years.
Fast Forward to early 2000. Dave A. invited me up to his shop so he
could make me just the chanter I wanted. I drove up and spent the day.
I picked out a chanter ... a lower-pitched one ... again liked the
sound but not the pitch. So he modified it to play at a mid-range
pitch. The chanter had serious cajones. Not quite as high as the
high-pitched model.
At this point I still had no experience with their drones. So just
after this I got married and for a wedding present my wife got me a
set of MacLellans! Not to be totally outdone, I wanted to get her a
new pipe. So I got her a Kron #1 set (yes I paid $$$ for it). And I
was gob-smacked at the sound and quality of the instrument.
It was in late June that I decided to get into the pipe retail
business. Of course the obvious choices for my product line were Kron
and MacLellan, both of whose instruments I like, and I know the folks
doing the manufacturing. Very important to me. Later that summer I met
the Soutars, took some product to test, and was very happy to add
them to my line. And of course Peter Crisler as well. I couldn't ask
for better suppliers.
So I played that Kron chanter nearly every contest in 2000, save the
first two of the year where I played my MacLellan. The marks were
quite good, culminating in a Piper of the Day at Stone Mountain, and a
prize in the Prof. Jig at Maxville ... ironically judged by ... Jim
McGillivray.
After the contests, Jim and I talked a bit about my bagpipe (MacLellan
drones and Kron chanter) on several occasions. He seemed quite
impressed with it.
Lo and behold a few months go by and I find that Jim is keen on
working with Kron and carrying their pipes. So I'm glad I had a small
part in getting them some publicity and hooking them up with Jim.
Now the chanter I played last year, probably due to it's customized
nature, did develop some problems with squeaking on C w/ G gracenotes
that I was never able to eliminate entirely. I also worked with Kron
on developing the "band" chanter ... moving a few holes around to fix
this or that discrepancy. So I bought a stock off-the-shelf Kron in
late 2000, had Dave put a sole on it, and that's what I now play for
solos. It's the exact same chanter anyone gets when they purchase a
Kron. I've also got a Soutar that I fiddle with and I think you'll
definitely see me at several contests this year playing a Soutar
bagpipe or Kron drones and probably a MacLellan chanter here and
there.
I've sold some Kron, some MacLellan, some Soutar bagpipes. I love them
all. No, I don't get kickbacks and stuff. I believe in these products
and these people and I stand behind everything I sell. Period. And
most importantly, this stuff is good enough for me to put my ass on
the line with.
John M. I believe you're the same way - you've found a pipemaker whose
stuff you love and respect, and you're fanatical about it. Nothing
wrong with that.
John Mitchell
> Not to speak for Alasdair here, but he's got five or six sets of pipes
> and every time I see him he's toting something different. But with
> those old Lawries of his, hell why NOT play them in the biggies?
I would imagine that most superstars in any venue have vendors giving
products to them. It's good publicity to have an individual endorse
their product as it develops a certain comfort level for the customer
to try their product.
> >It's a low end product to address a certain segment of the market.
> >They also other makes to sell to higher end markets. Their all
> >fighting for market share like the rest of vendors out their.
>
> That's not true. Kron is NOT one of the less expensive bagpipes out
> there, not by a long shot. Because of the extra expense of using real
> silver on every set.
Maybe this is a topic for a another thread, but I've asked Jerry this as
well.
Silver is a relatively inexpensive material in terms of cost. What makes the
price
of pipes Sky Rocket to a price of $7000 dollars for a full set of Silver?
> Here's the full true story of how I got involved with Kron.
> hassle and ear adjustment. So I sent it back. He made me a
> higher-pitched one, right on w/ the Mark 2, but it lacked the depth of
> sound the original one did. So I sent that back.
Ok so Dave can adjust chanters to suit, but which one is the real
Kron chanter? It's statements like these Chris that made me question
the direction of Krons tone just a few years ago.
I guess that makes me a bad guy for not liking their tone!
> Now a couple of years previously a similar thing had happened with me
> and Gibson. His chanter was pitched well above the Mark 2 and, for the
> same reasons above, I found it unsuitable for my use. In 1997 he came
> out with a mid-pitched model that exactly matched the band setup and
> so I wound up buying one and using it for several years.
As the Kronies like to point out, Gibson gets heavily criticism from them
for changing his models in persuit of getting good sound. All the makers do
that!
> It was in late June that I decided to get into the pipe retail
> business. Of course the obvious choices for my product line were Kron
> and MacLellan, both of whose instruments I like, and I know the folks
> doing the manufacturing. Very important to me. Later that summer I met
> the Soutars, took some product to test, and was very happy to add
> them to my line. And of course Peter Crisler as well. I couldn't ask
> for better suppliers.
Having a healthy selection odprodcut is always a good part of a business
plan!
Your retail business should be very successful!
> Lo and behold a few months go by and I find that Jim is keen on
> working with Kron and carrying their pipes. So I'm glad I had a small
> part in getting them some publicity and hooking them up with Jim.
Happens all the time in the pipe making industry, pro players try
to move some product and everybody makes some money.
Every pipe maker becomes a piping whore as they scramble
for a limited market share. It's essential to the survival of any business.
> Kron. I've also got a Soutar that I fiddle with and I think you'll
> definitely see me at several contests this year playing a Soutar
> bagpipe or Kron drones and probably a MacLellan chanter here and
> there.
What ever works for you Chris, just remember the most important aspect
of performing. Trying not to breakdown! ;-)
> I've sold some Kron, some MacLellan, some Soutar bagpipes. I love them
> all. No, I don't get kickbacks and stuff. I believe in these products
> and these people and I stand behind everything I sell. Period. And
> most importantly, this stuff is good enough for me to put my ass on
> the line with.
>
> John M. I believe you're the same way - you've found a pipemaker whose
> stuff you love and respect, and you're fanatical about it. Nothing
> wrong with that.
See my thread on ending this petty blithering!
Thanks for your input Chris!
John
Chris Hamilton
<sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Ok so Dave can adjust chanters to suit, but which one is the real
>Kron chanter? It's statements like these Chris that made me question
>the direction of Krons tone just a few years ago.
Well I do like a maker that will give that kind of personal attention,
and that has the machinery to do it. Jerry does too, but I think he
didn't want to get involved into changing things around too much to
suit one guy. I can certainly understand that, it was just cool when
Kron could tweak to satisfy my specs.
>I guess that makes me a bad guy for not liking their tone!
Nah, not at all. I like what I like and vice-versa.
>What ever works for you Chris, just remember the most important aspect
>of performing. Trying not to breakdown! ;-)
Hah! Been there! My BD record is pretty good, actually ... maybe
sometimes I *should* have and didn't!
See you definitely at Fort Erie. You can come and critique!
And to throw another monkey wrench into the mix, you'll get to hear
the new COW chanters - Shepherd Mark 3 wood ... :-)
John Mitchell
Chris Hamilton <ch...@toneczar.com> wrote
> And to throw another monkey wrench into the mix, you'll get to hear
> the new COW chanters - Shepherd Mark 3 wood ... :-)
Ha, something new and improved from Scotland Again! ;-)
Ah there's nothing like a little competition to keep the lads on their toes!
cheers
John
Royce Lerwick
He's been given his due. He made chanters good enough back then that
for 69 bucks they'd do fine in grade 2 if you wanted to play
MacAllisters. That's exactly what I've given him and that's the exact
truth.
Royce Lerwick
As soon as I figure out how to disable Java or whatever the secret
combination is to get a good look at them more than a few seconds I'll
be more exact on that. They don't however, look like the sets of
Gibsons I've seen before, they don't look like yours, and certainly
not like the set I see in my band today.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
<sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Chris Hamilton <ch...@toneczar.com> wrote
>
>> And to throw another monkey wrench into the mix, you'll get to hear
>> the new COW chanters - Shepherd Mark 3 wood ... :-)
>
>Ha, something new and improved from Scotland Again! ;-)
You'll have to trade those in on the Mark IV. Real grass
flatteners--no solo potential, but you can see a depression in the
blades below as you play.
MrRobotTow
>Gibsons I've seen before, they don't look like yours, and certainly
>not like the set I see in my band today.
Of course not! This is just another scam this crook Mitchell is trying to pull
over on us. Those look NOTHING LIKE any set of Gibslops I've ever seen, and I
doubt anyone else has ever seen gibslops that look like that either (except as
an *example* in the shop maybe, but the pipes you or I could buy, certainly
bare no resemblence to that pic.)
Ed Via
Chris Hamilton wrote:
> I am so tired of this. Jerry Gibson makes a fine bagpipe. Not
> everyone's cup of tea, but so what? And he's a nice guy, I've known
> him for over 15 years. He's been very kind to me and I've learned a
> lot by talking to him. <snip>
It is a shame to think that there are probably some folks, new to piping
and just lurking here on the NG, that may be lead to overlook this
man's, or any other product, based solely on the personal bickering that
goes on here. Sensible folk like yourself know there's only one way to
know if a given pipe, of any maker, is the one for you. Go out and try
the things, visit the shops/makers, get real evaluations, pros, cons,
etc. from capable, qualified players.
Jerry has been a huge help to my son, and has played a very important
role in his moving to Gr II at age 12, both from a sound and a music
perspective. All this Gibson/Kron tripe is such a waste of time.
Ed Via
hackpiper
battles really have; like is there really anyone out there who was going to
by a particular brand and then didn't because of something they read in
RMMB? I think most people are smart enough to figure who offers information
of value and who doesn't.
I have a feeling they gain more business by having their name mentioned in
here all the time than they lose from the bashing of one or two people.
I do know that there are a lot of people who used to add a lot to this
group with their frequent, informative posts and many of them seem to have
disappeared. Even Alasdair Gillies basically got chased off by a ridiculous
Kron battle....how bad is that?
I totally agree Ed, that the pipe maker wars are just a waste of time.
Ed Via <r...@lib.muohio.edu> wrote in <3B014591...@lib.muohio.edu>:
>
>It is a shame to think that there are probably some folks, new to piping
>and just lurking here on the NG, that may be lead to overlook this
>man's, or any other product, based solely on the personal bickering that
>goes on here. Sensible folk like yourself know there's only one way to
>know if a given pipe, of any maker, is the one for you. Go out and try
>the things, visit the shops/makers, get real evaluations, pros, cons,
>etc. from capable, qualified players.
>
>Jerry has been a huge help to my son, and has played a very important
>role in his moving to Gr II at age 12, both from a sound and a music
>perspective. All this Gibson/Kron tripe is such a waste of time.
>
>Ed Via
>
--
hackpiper
MrRobotTow
Saying something this ludicrous about Mitchell, shows your head is so far up
yer ass, your opinion is completely worthless.
Royce Lerwick
And I'll bet you need it frequently!
Royce Lerwick
>All this Gibson/Kron tripe is such a waste of time.
I for one keep trying to point out that it's John Mitchell or others
who've insisted in couching the Gibson discussions in terms of
comparisons to Kron. Maybe Dave Atherson kicked it off by pointing out
the BS comparison done by Berthoff's anonymous hit-man in the P&D some
years back, but it's a little bit like the Irish troubles at this
point. When I talk about Gibson products or what little I've known of
Gibson personally or on a business/customer service level, it's got
nothing to do with a comparison or relationship to Kron. I've only
known about CE Kron for some two or three years and I think owned the
products maybe 2. My experience with Gibson and Gibson products goes
back to around 1981-82 or so.
Chris Hamilton
Ed Via was saying that about ME, Mr. Davidson.
I happen to know Ed and his son Jack as well. Ed's an adult beginner
who's done quite well for himself, and his son is a dynamite young
player who'll go far.
Time to cool it.
MrRobotTow
>who've insisted in couching the Gibson discussions in terms of
>comparisons to Kron.
Absolutely true! I never brought it up except to compare to the set of pipes I
own, which happen to be Krons.
MrRobotTow
My apologies to Mr Via. Perhaps you should teach your friend how to quote
posts, so others will have a better idea what he's talking about.
>Time to cool it.
Agreed.
MrRobotTow
posts do not, this is why people should quote the posts they are replying too.
Ed Via
Chris Hamilton wrote:
>
> On 15 May 2001 17:31:44 GMT, mrrob...@aol.com (MrRobotTow) wrote:
>
> >> Sensible folk like yourself
> >
> >Saying something this ludicrous about Mitchell, shows your head is so far up
> >yer ass, your opinion is completely worthless.
>
> Ed Via was saying that about ME, Mr. Davidson.
>
> I happen to know Ed and his son Jack as well. Ed's an adult beginner
> who's done quite well for himself, and his son is a dynamite young
> player who'll go far.
>
> Time to cool it.
Well thanks for that Chris, but when insults and rudeness come as
frequently as they do from our Mr. Davidson, they lose the ability to
sting in any meaningful way :*)
Ed
Jim Price
especially the young lad.
jp
"Ed Via" <r...@lib.muohio.edu> wrote in message
news:3B01933C...@lib.muohio.edu...
Bpiper3981
because of the do nothing pipers who constantly insult people, call them names
et. You all know who the main boob is, on the NG. What a waste of a good
resource, you can't blame the great pipers for staying clear of the NG
Cheers
GS>>>>>>>>
Chris Hamilton
>P.S. Chris, your post never appeared on my news reader, even some of my own
>posts do not, this is why people should quote the posts they are replying too.
Ah, I see.
Time to get "Agent" !!
Who?
"Bpiper3981" <bpipe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010515181348...@ng-bg1.aol.com...
> We do not even know how much great information we have not been able to
get
> because of the do nothing pipers who constantly insult people, call them
names
> et. You all know who the main boob is, on the NG.
Yes, but we try to put up with you, fat arse and all.
Who?
friendly as AOL, and if I think I missed something like your post I can
check it here, but its a pain wading through all the messages I've already
read.
"Chris Hamilton" <ch...@toneczar.com> wrote in message
news:08b3gt877oms64tqc...@4ax.com...
IAH
For those of us who've been usenet addicts for longer than 7 years or so,
I'm sure you'll understand this post. Let's please remember the power of a
FAQ. In the interest of our public image as a serious musical community
online, it's time we do the following, as is convention in most worthwhile
newsgroups:
Whenever a new or obviously clueless person wanders in to the group, we
should ALL refer that person to the FAQ. It's just plain good nettiquite to
at least read the faq for a newsgroup before posting. Let's help newbies
follow good nettiquite.
1. Include a "Netkooks" section in the FAQ, and certainly put our very
special someone in there. "Netkooks" sections of faq's are a convetional
way to warn FAQ readers which posters to the newsgroup threaten the common
peace.
2. It's been a LONG time since i've seen the FAQ posted here on this
newsgroup. This is usually a regular practice on Usenet.
I'd think that we can at least save face on a go forward basis if we can all
agree to start newbies on the FAQ, help them filter out badguys at their
clients, then we can go on, and perhaps win the trust back from more
respectable leaders in our community who have been needlessly tossed about
by worthless people which we have allowed to destroy common civility here in
this forum.
Who?
you may not agree with. Thats censorship at its worst.
"IAH" <death...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6GmM6.21879$27.34...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
Who?
"FAQS" page, and list you (and a few others) as the "head-assholes of the
NG" and that should level the playing field..
"Who?" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:oVrM6.22022$0W5.4...@typhoon1.ba-dsg.net...
Pipe Major Angus McShagnasty
it becomes tedious drivel and serves no purpose but to slander the good name of
a couple of guys (Gibson & Kron) who are trying to do the best job they can of
providing a quality product and make a living doing something that they love -
we all should be so lucky. If you don't like it - don't buy it, doesn't matter
if it's a car, cup of coffee or set of pipes, but why not spend your time doing
something more constructive than slagging people off - maybe go practice??
As an aside, I happen to own a set of Gibson pipes and a set of Fireside pipes
- I am happy with every aspect of the sound, quality and service that I have
received - I bought what I liked. I checked, talked and played a number of
other makers pipes before I decided to purchase all of the pipes that I have
owned over time. Does that mean that I have to slag off Kron or .etc - nope, my
$$ does the talking. I play in a circle of excellent pipers, a number of them
also play Gibsons.
So what is the bottom line - talk with your $$$ and your playing, leave the
slagging for the playgound. This monotone banter serves no purpose but to shore
up some petty, narcisistic egos. Let's get back to the real purpose of the NG
which is the sharing of knowledge and music.
p.s Don't bother posting any smart arse retorts - go practice!
Angus
Bill wrote:
> >So does this guy habitually refer to himself in the third person? Seems a
> >little strange.....
>
> Only between doses.
> Bill
Tim Sullivan
>
> Angus
Sage advice, that. Applies to more to more threads than not.
MrRobotTow
Oh please! And disapoint my fans? sorry shaggy, no can do...
MrRobotTow
Hey Tim,
I've been thinking this over carefully, and I just have to speak up. We talked
about your disability, and it has long ago occured to me you were disabled, and
thats just by reading your posts! So if you need any help proving it, I'd be
glad to do you a "solid" and write some letters (with quotes from your posts
included) to help you prove your diability. Since you convinced me rather
easily, I'd be glad to help you out. ;?)~
Ian Mac
"Pipe Major Angus McShagnasty" <pmaj_mcs...@wyan.org> wrote in
>
> As an aside, I happen to own a set of Gibson pipes and a set of Fireside
pipes
> - I am happy with every aspect of the sound, quality and service that I
have
> received -
Of the players that I have observed playing Gibson bagpipes, this seems
to be the common experience.
I have never seen or heard of Fireside pipes, what are they?
Ian
Calum
>
> I have never seen or heard of Fireside pipes, what are they?
>
> Ian
Lucky for some, eh? Kidding. They're a sort of smallpipe type chanter
with a mouthblown bag and two drones on the shoulder like GHBs, one
tenor, one bass. Some people love em, some hate em. I'm indifferent.
They certainly aren't traditional, as I have heard suggested. Can't
really see myself spending actual money on them.
There's a picture of them on SFUs Carnegie Hall album sleeve, if you're
really desperate. I assume Jerry's website will also have a picture,
but the coding of the site is so crap I can't really be bothered
looking. I would think someone will be able to point you to a picture
of them.
Cheers,
Calum
Calum
What I have seen some NGs do is get a web page, and add an add on
guestbook, and get all the regulars to leave details of themselves, what
they do, etc. Very useful for newbies to get a quick picture of all the
major NG players. Any thoughts, folks?
Cheers,
Calum
Chris Hamilton
>I would say setting up a Netkooks section is just asking for trouble.
>What I have seen some NGs do is get a web page, and add an add on
>guestbook, and get all the regulars to leave details of themselves, what
>they do, etc. Very useful for newbies to get a quick picture of all the
>major NG players. Any thoughts, folks?
That's a great idea, I've seen it in other groups.
Bpiper3981
with a mouthblown bag and two drones on the shoulder like GHBs, one
Cheers
GaryS>>>>>>
Tim Sullivan
news:20010517061611...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
> > Sage advice, that. Applies to more to more threads than not.
>
> Hey Tim,
> I've been thinking this over carefully,
Huh? Based on the quality to quantity ratio relfected in your posts I
can't imagine that you think AT ALL, much less carefully.
> and I just have to speak up.
Imagine my surprise! When was the last time you DIDN'T speak up? On
ANYTHING?
> We talked
> about your disability, and it has long ago occured to me you were
disabled, and
> thats just by reading your posts!
My disabilities are physical. Your's cross many boundaries.
> So if you need any help proving it, I'd be
> glad to do you a "solid" and write some letters (with quotes from your
posts
> included) to help you prove your diability. Since you convinced me rather
> easily, I'd be glad to help you out. ;?)~
Yes, thanks, I'm sure that your expert opinion (medical, psychological,
pharmacuetical, and piping) will be enough to sway entire populations.
I am one of the last regulars on this newsgroup that has yet to killfile
you. Don't push it.
MrRobotTow
>you. Don't push it.
C'mon now, dont be so grumpy, it was obviouly a joke.
Sorry if you were genuinely offended, but I doubt you were.
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
Can't be much of a Gibson fan if you've never heard of Fireside pipes.
They had some Gaelic name for a while but it never stuck. They're
PC-ish based little bagpipes with little dronies, mouthblown. The
first versions were horizontal drones like smallpipes, the current
versions sound a lot better, have a bigger voice, and are layed out
like parlour, or miniature pipes.
Royce Lerwick
>
>>
>> I have never seen or heard of Fireside pipes, what are they?
>>
>> Ian
>
>
>Lucky for some, eh? Kidding. They're a sort of smallpipe type chanter
>with a mouthblown bag and two drones on the shoulder like GHBs, one
>tenor, one bass. Some people love em, some hate em. I'm indifferent.
>They certainly aren't traditional, as I have heard suggested. Can't
>really see myself spending actual money on them.
I just remembered that Gaelic name--Duane I think it was, but that may
have been just applied to the horizontal smallpipey ones, not the
current miniature pipes version.
Calum
playing shuttle pipes, and the other guy what I can only assume are
Firesides. Quite definitely two drones. Why, who only knows....
Ayrhead
seems to be much more popular of late.
Calum
two or three? Or was the SFU set a one off?
Ayrhead
model. It seems that most are going for the 3 drones now,
just based on what I've seen locally. It makes sense, since
if you don't want the baritone, you can easily shut it off.
Ian Mac
"Royce Lerwick" <pmle...@mn.mediaone.net> wrote in
> I just remembered that Gaelic name--Duane I think it was, but that may
> have been just applied to the horizontal smallpipey ones, not the
> current miniature pipes version.
Interesting concept!
I've seen and heard the "Shuttle pipes", Does it sound anything like it?
Is there any sound samples on a CD to listen to?
How much do they cost?
Ed Via
Calum wrote:
>
> What's with the two drone / three drone thing? Do they normally have
> two or three? Or was the SFU set a one off?
The middle drone on the 3-drone model is a baritone.
Ed
Smitty
too hard to understand? Practice a little here and there and then talk about
pipes. But still, all of this BS you babble about is in very poor taste as well as
purposely undermining any progressive thinking in this newsgroup. A new person
reading what you have to say may very well go away with the opinion that we all
are a sack of hammers like you...But you think that this is entertaining...Please
don't give yourself that credit...you're not.
Bill wrote:
> >I don't know anything
>
> That seems accurate.
>
> >I don't know anything about you but what band do you play with and what grade
> >do
> >you compete in..?bill ...?
>
> Why do you ask? Its completely irrelevant in this situation. Does your lawyer
> play bagpipes? Is that neccassary to get his legal opinion?
> Ask me that in a thread where its relevant, and I'll answer.
>
> P.S. Another junk dealer (exclusive dealers in you-know-whose brand) goes
> under. I guess when you sell only one brand of pipes, and it costs you more to
> handle complaints about workmanship and cracked wood than you make profit, you
> either get a job in the mines while a thief watches over your store, or go
> under like these guys. Too bad, but you have to wonder why these stores dont
> see this coming, and change over thier line to a product thats relatively
> trouble free.
> Hows that Mike? Do I need to be a gr1 player to give an opinion on business
> too?
> Bill
MrRobotTow
Says who? You know ZERO about my playing abilities, so lets hear about your
sources, or take your BS somewhere else.
Bpiper3981
forgotten more about pipes than you will know in your lifetime. Do you really
want to get into piping debate with Jerry Gibson LOLOLOLOL
Cheers
GaryS>>>>>>>
Who?
"Bpiper3981" <bpipe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010523142355...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
> Come on Bill everyone on the NG knows about your playing ability. >
Nobody, including my brother knows anything about my playing abilities for
the last two years.
Jerry has
> forgotten more about pipes than you will know in your lifetime. Do you
really
> want to get into piping debate with Jerry Gibson LOLOLOLOL
> Cheers
> GaryS>>>>>>>
I never claimed to know more than JG, or invited him to debate me.
You see this is where you show what a gr1 arse you are. You just said "I
will not engage in that kind of banter" and here you are the very next day
posting useless (thats nothing new) and instagatorial (look it up), and off
topic posts, that serve no purpose at all except so you can chant "see! he
hasn't changed at all" when I respond calling you a "BIG FAT ARSE", which of
course I am bound to do sooner or later.
So you hold the distinction (look it up) of being the only person on here I
actually WISH would block me. So keep your word for once and put me on
block.
Have a REALLY great day!
Who?
> Lets disect the ramblings of a madman.
>
> "Bpiper3981" <bpipe...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20010523142355...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
> > Come on Bill everyone on the NG knows about your playing ability. >
the same two who told you Mr X was playing brand Y, and as so many times in
the past you were proven to be wrong? Those guys? You must stop listening to
those little voices in your head, the echo in there must be murder.