Equal Tempered Scale
Leslie Thomson
reflects on pipes being tuned in an equal tempered scale.
He (or she) feels that it is a question of time before all bands are thus
tuned.
How do you feel about this?
Should we all go "equal tempered" and loose our "character"?
or
Should we stick to our guns and remain "special"?
or
Should we all have two chanters and thus "adapt" to the circumstances?
Cheers,
Leslie
SpeedCom
>feels that it is a question of time before all bands are thustuned.How do you
>"character"?orShould we stick to our guns and remain "special"?orShould we
>all have two chanters and thus "adapt" to the circumstances?Cheers,Leslie
Why in Bog's name would anyone (mis)tune an instrument into an equal
temperament if there were *any* other choice?
At a time when even PIANO !!!! people are realizing what an abberation that
they have suffered under for nearly 150 years, who is going to handicap
themselves so? After all, we don't have to play with pianos, which is the only
reason *anyone* would commit equal temperament.
Cheers/
Donald Carron,
Preserve endangered species; collect a complete set
madman
You are in desperate need of a music theory lesson.
SpeedCom
Probably not.
Carron/harpsichordist.
Lloyd Bogart
> >You are in desperate need of a music theory lesson.
> Donald Carron wrote:
> Probably not.
>
> Carron/harpsichordist.
Wretched equal temper'd --- no, no, no!
Bad, bad, bad. Begone, back whence ye came.
Blechhhhh! It is to cringe! (It is not to tune.)
Lloyd Bogart
(perceptual psychologist in agreement with harpichordist)
Paul Gretton
> > Why in Bog's name would anyone (mis)tune an instrument into an equal
> > temperament if there were *any* other choice?
> >
> > At a time when even PIANO !!!! people are realizing what an abberation that
> > they have suffered under for nearly 150 years, who is going to handicap
> > themselves so? After all, we don't have to play with pianos, which is the only
> > reason *anyone* would commit equal temperament.
> >
>
--
I have been thinking SERIOUSLY of getting a Kron chanter; indeed, I was about to e-mail
your company with an order. This message has made me think again.
I know that you MAKE Kron's instruments. Before I order, can you please confirm that
someone else (C.E. Kron himself?) actually TUNES them.
I am sending a copy of this message to cek...@idt.net.
Cheers,
Paul Gretton
*****Present mirth hath present laughter.(Twelfth Night)*****
len...@my-dejanews.com
into computer speak as well as just yelling it, just pretend)
In article <19981107212410...@ng-ft1.aol.com>,
spee...@aol.com (SpeedCom) wrote:
>
> At a time when even PIANO !!!! people are realizing what an abberation that
> they have suffered under for nearly 150 years, who is going to handicap
> themselves so? After all, we don't have to play with pianos, which is the
only
> reason *anyone* would commit equal temperament.
>
> Cheers/
>
> Donald Carron,
>
> Preserve endangered species; collect a complete set
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Royce Lerwick
<10060...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>I have been thinking SERIOUSLY of getting a Kron chanter; indeed, I was about to e-mail
>your company with an order. This message has made me think again.
>
>I know that you MAKE Kron's instruments. Before I order, can you please confirm that
>someone else (C.E. Kron himself?) actually TUNES them.
Paul, any chanter ever made still ends up mummified in tape and reamed
or filed or scraped all the heck anyway.
As for the Kron, it's won professional level solo championships at one
of the biggest contest in NA, and I've played one myself. You won't
have any problems with it, unless you actually expect it to come from
the shop all tuned up. Not even pianos do that. Harpsichords certainly
don't.
Royce
Paul Gretton
--
Come on Royce, my sweet. This is way below the standards of your classic sarcasm in the
old days. OF COURSE I expect to have to tape and carve a chanter. It's just that
it helps if the maker has done a decent tuning job to start with. **IF** a GHB
chanter were to be tuned to an equally tempered scale (which I now believe Kron's
are NOT), my/your/Gordon Duncan's/whosoever's job would be made that much harder.
Interesting you mention harpsichords. The ones I've been involved in building (no, NOT
from kits) didn't leave the shop tuned either. ;-)
Royce Lerwick
<10060...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>Come on Royce, my sweet. This is way below the standards of your classic sarcasm in the
>old days.
The truth is, I was so baffled as to just who was arguing what and
why, I couldn't find a direction for any sarcasm.
>OF COURSE I expect to have to tape and carve a chanter. It's just that
>it helps if the maker has done a decent tuning job to start with.
My main complaint with every point argued in the thread is that I
disagree with whatever theory has led essentially all chanter makers
to tune their product in whatever manner they have chosen. In the case
of the Kron I ended up with some tape on E, D, and C, and the rest
seemed very nice. I suppose I could have shoved the reed in a tad to
sharpen the upperhand, then tape the high G a bit, and carve out or
undercut the low A, to find agreement at a bit higher base pitch.
Most other chanters I end up either taping the high A and or G a hair
to bring up a flattish C/D.
>**IF** a GHB
>chanter were to be tuned to an equally tempered scale (which I now believe Kron's
>are NOT), my/your/Gordon Duncan's/whosoever's job would be made that much harder.
I'm not entirely sure but I think Madman's point was there were some
very good reasons for using equal temperment in harmony-based music,
even it it were pipes. I think a lot of this line was wasted on a GHB
crowd confined to one octave and a limited and harmonically related
scale and modal offshoots. We aren't for instance going to be
constructing any F#maj7th/11 jazz chords anyway, and if we did, like
all jazz constructions, they'd just sound a like some coloration of
not really a chord anyway--in any temperment.
It seems like everyone involved in this thread forgot entirely that
the *only* reason for inventing an equal temperment system was to
enable musicians or composers, (primarily the keyboardist) to change
from one key to another--any key to another.
They Pythagorian interval problem is not a problem if you only want to
construct harmony or scales in a single base key, not even if you want
to construct non-Celtic jazz chords as available in the key or mode
with what notes you have available in the Celtic scale or modes.
You can't for instance, arbitrarily decide to move up a half-step just
for modulation's sake to make a piece less boring even though you're
just repeating it endlessly in any case. You can't even move up from A
to B and decide to play in B major, because you don't have an Eb.
And finally, in a practical sense, most chording instruments when
played with pipes don't have to be in pure temperment. Equal
temperment isn't far enough out most of the time to make any
difference in the basic agreement of an instrument that is all over
the map pitch-wise because of primitive reed and blowing
characteristics.
Royce
madman
> crowd confined to one octave and a limited and harmonically related
> scale and modal offshoots. We aren't for instance going to be
> constructing any F#maj7th/11 jazz chords anyway, and if we did, like
> all jazz constructions, they'd just sound a like some coloration of
> not really a chord anyway--in any temperment.
Er, Royce....I did say F#maj7th#11....I didn't pick the chord
willy-nilly out of a hat.That particular chord denotes without question
"Lydian Tonality".Intervallically speaking..1,2,3 ,#4,5,6,7
There was a bagpipe reference intended,Cameronian Rant is basically
a Lydian based composition, but no one picked up on the irony.
Everything else you said, I agree with.
Man I love that mode,I'm a real sucker for it.
>
Ewan A. Macpherson
in ET (and two other more drone-friendly tunings), I've whipped
up a little demonstration at:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/acoustics/hearscales.html
--
Ewan Macpherson <emac...@umich.edu>
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes.html
Richard Mao
Richard Mao, The Peking Piper ( peking...@mao.org )
When you choose an action, you choose the consequences of that action.
The corollary: When you desire a consequence,
you damn well better take the action that creates it.
Bill Davidson
Paul Gretton
>
> For those interested in hearing what a chanter would sound like
> in ET (and two other more drone-friendly tunings), I've whipped
> up a little demonstration at:
>
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/acoustics/hearscales.html
>
> --
> Ewan Macpherson <emac...@umich.edu>
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes.html
--
I've just checked this out. Great stuff! Thank you, Ewan.
COUGARBALL
tuner, and he will tell you that if you tune the piano dead on, it sounds
terrible, but if each note is out of tune the specified degree (even the
octaves as they ascend and descend the keyboard) it sounds fine. Why anyone
would want a chanter deliberately "out of tune" is beyond me, but then, like
anything else, there probably is a good reason that I am not aware of.
SpeedCom
>soundsterrible, but if each note is out of tune the specified degree (even
>theoctaves as they ascend and descend the keyboard) it sounds fine. Why
>anyonewould want a chanter deliberately "out of tune" is beyond me, but then,
>likeanything else, there probably is a good reason that I am not aware of.
Coog,
You seem dead right on all points. The only purposes for equal temperament are:
to be able to play (badly) in all keys, and to be easily able to play with
other instruments similarly tuned. How many keys can a GHB play in? How often
are we used as ensemble instruments?
Don't you think it is amazing that people pay $60 or more to have someone come
in and mistune their piano? Ed Foote, whiz-bang piano tuner to the stars in
Nashville, says that more and more informed (not C&W) musicians are asking him
to tune their pianos in historical temperaments.
Cheers/Carron
Josep
COUGARBALL escribió en mensaje
<19981116115011...@ng144.aol.com>...
>Equal temperment, by its very definition, is "out of tune." Ask any piano
>tuner, and he will tell you that if you tune the piano dead on, it sounds
>terrible, but if each note is out of tune the specified degree (even the
>octaves as they ascend and descend the keyboard) it sounds fine. Why
anyone
>would want a chanter deliberately "out of tune" is beyond me, but then,
like
>anything else, there probably is a good reason that I am not aware of.
Equal temperment refers to the fact that the relation between the frequencya
of any two consecutive semitones (like G and G#, for instance) is constant,
and equal to 2^1/12 (that is the 12th root of 2). The fact is that notes so
tuned are slightly out of tune to the "pure" notes and, say, a C scale would
sound much better with notes out of equal temperment. This fact can be seen
in th efact thatsome ancient pieces emphasized the playing of the most
exactly tuned notes.
Therefore, why take this so uninconvenient approach? The reason is tonality
and change of tonality as appeared in the 17th century. In a non-equal
tempered instrument, you can make some notes sound well, but not all notes.
Therefore, you can get a very good C scale, but you always get a horrible E
flat scale, for instance. Therefore, to play the kind of music composed in
the late Baroque period and after, you need an equal tempered instrument.
And this is a good reason to be "out of tune".
However, I would say that pipes do not need equal temperment, since they can
not change the scale they are playing, except in the way of the ancient
Greek modes (you change the origin of the scale to get different tonalities,
but not the notes to play). This is emphasized by the fact that pipes have
drones, and this marks clearly a reduced set of tonalities that can be
properly played.
Pep