Bellows vs mouth blown (Cornemuse)
Maarten van Damme
Hi All,
Last weekend I had an impressive introduction to continental piping. I
did not realize that there are hundreds of pipers in Holland playing
traditional French, Belgium and Dutch type of bagpipes.
This newsgroup gives you the impression everyone plays GHB until you
discover there are probably more people playing "Continental bagpipes"
than GHB in The Netherlands.
The type of bagpipe played here is the Cornemuse. The Dutch/Flemmish
bagpipe only differs slightly in that in the Cornemuse one bourdon is
placed next to the chanter instead of somewhere else in the bag (like
the Dutch type).
The type of bagpipes I saw looked alle very similar. A bellows or
mouth-blown bagpipe, a chanter and one or two bourdons as they are
called here.
There was a noticeble difference in sound and expression between the
same (type of) bagpipe, mouth-blown or bellows 'driven'.
Could some-one explain to me what the main differences are in sound
(quality)and expression between mouth-blown and bellows. Also why this
is the case if possible?
Maarten van Damme
mvd...@xs4all.nl
Thomas Sauer
Maarten van Damme (mvd...@xs4all.nl) wrote:
:
: Hi All,
:
: Last weekend I had an impressive introduction to continental piping. I
: did not realize that there are hundreds of pipers in Holland playing
: traditional French, Belgium and Dutch type of bagpipes.
:
: This newsgroup gives you the impression everyone plays GHB until you
: discover there are probably more people playing "Continental bagpipes"
: than GHB in The Netherlands.
:
: The type of bagpipe played here is the Cornemuse.
... that's just the French word for bagpipe.
: The Dutch/Flemmish
: bagpipe only differs slightly in that in the Cornemuse one bourdon is
: placed next to the chanter instead of somewhere else in the bag (like
: the Dutch type).
:
All pipes have a chanter and drones somewhere in the bag :-)
: The type of bagpipes I saw looked alle very similar. A bellows or
: mouth-blown bagpipe, a chanter and one or two bourdons as they are
: called here.
:
: There was a noticeble difference in sound and expression between the
: same (type of) bagpipe, mouth-blown or bellows 'driven'.
:
Ideally, there shouldn't be a difference in sound (if you do not the choking
of pipers running out of breath :-) and many pipes are even offered in both
ways. It's just a matter of taste (and of breath, of course); and, a bellows
driven instrument allows you to talk or chat or sing.
: Could some-one explain to me what the main differences are in sound
: (quality)and expression between mouth-blown and bellows. Also why this
: is the case if possible?
:
Probably it was the piper :-(
: Maarten van Damme
: mvd...@xs4all.nl
:
--
Dr. Thomas Sauer Tel +49 9131 852457
Mathematical Institute Fax +49 9131 852684
University Erlangen--Nuremberg
Bismarckstr. 1 1/2
D-91054 Erlangen, Germany
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Young man, in mathematics you don't understand things, you just get used
to them. -- John von Neumann (1903-1957)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Olle Gallmo
> There was a noticeble difference in sound and expression between the
> same (type of) bagpipe, mouth-blown or bellows 'driven'.
> Could some-one explain to me what the main differences are in sound
> (quality)and expression between mouth-blown and bellows. Also why this
> is the case if possible?
The difference is mainly due to the thickness of the chanter reed.
There is a limit to how thin you can shave a reed in a mouthblown
instrument, due to problems with humidity. One of the advantages of
bellows-blown instruments is that the reeds can be made thinner,
causing a more silent, less air-consuming and more pleasant sound
(subject to opinion of course). If you were to play such a thin reed
in a mouth blown bagpipe you would probably destroy it.
/Crwth
--
----- If God is real, why did he create discontinuous functions? -----
Olle G=E4llmo, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Snail Mail: Box 325, S-751 05 Uppsala, Sweden. Tel: +46 18 18 10 09
URL: http://www.docs.uu.se/~crwth Fax: +46 18 55 02 25
Email: cr...@DoCS.UU.SE
Stephan Erber
Maarten van Damme wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Last weekend I had an impressive introduction to continental piping. I
> did not realize that there are hundreds of pipers in Holland playing
> traditional French, Belgium and Dutch type of bagpipes.
>
> This newsgroup gives you the impression everyone plays GHB until you
> discover there are probably more people playing "Continental bagpipes"
> than GHB in The Netherlands.
>
Welcome to the *real* world of bagpipes!
> The type of bagpipes I saw looked alle very similar. A bellows or
> mouth-blown bagpipe, a chanter and one or two bourdons as they are
> called here.
>
> There was a noticeble difference in sound and expression between the
> same (type of) bagpipe, mouth-blown or bellows 'driven'.
>
> Could some-one explain to me what the main differences are in sound
> (quality)and expression between mouth-blown and bellows. Also why this
> is the case if possible?
>
As far as I know, there should be no difference between mouth-blown
and bellows-blown bagpipes. Some bagpipe makers even make mouth-blown
sets which can be upgraded later with a bellows. The only reason
I can imagine for hearing differnces is moisture. Mouth-blown
bagpipes will perceive a reasonable amount of moisture during play.
This can cause troubles with cane reeds, which of course affects the
sound. But a well-maintained and -played set of pipes should not
be affected by that.
There are some sites on the web where you can get information about
all kinds of bagpipes. You might want to have a look at my collection
of links (not exhaustive at all, but a good starting point):
http://www.isd-pm.de/~stephan/pipelinks.html
Happy piping
Stephan
Troy Sagrillo
Thomas Sauer wrote:
>
> Maarten van Damme (mvd...@xs4all.nl) wrote:
> : The Dutch/Flemmish
> : bagpipe only differs slightly in that in the Cornemuse one bourdon is
> : placed next to the chanter instead of somewhere else in the bag (like
> : the Dutch type).
> :
>
> All pipes have a chanter and drones somewhere in the bag :-)
I believe that Maarten was referring to the fact that the *French*-style
cornemuse played in Belgium and the Netherlands has the bourdon (drone)
set into a common stock *with* the chanter (and is typically
bellows-blown), unlike the Dutch/Flemish doedelzakken that have the
drone tied into the bag directly, usually projecting forward away from
the player (and are always(?) mouth-blown).
Groetjes,
Troy
--
Troy Sagrillo
Department of Near & Middle Eastern Civilizations
University of Toronto
Canada
Thomas Sauer
Troy Sagrillo (t.sag...@utoronto.ca) wrote:
: Thomas Sauer wrote:
: >
: > Maarten van Damme (mvd...@xs4all.nl) wrote:
: > : The Dutch/Flemmish
: > : bagpipe only differs slightly in that in the Cornemuse one bourdon is
: > : placed next to the chanter instead of somewhere else in the bag (like
: > : the Dutch type).
: > :
: >
: > All pipes have a chanter and drones somewhere in the bag :-)
:
: I believe that Maarten was referring to the fact that the *French*-style
: cornemuse played in Belgium and the Netherlands has the bourdon (drone)
: set into a common stock *with* the chanter (and is typically
: bellows-blown), unlike the Dutch/Flemish doedelzakken that have the
: drone tied into the bag directly, usually projecting forward away from
: the player (and are always(?) mouth-blown).
:
: Groetjes,
:
: Troy
:
Yes, but his sentence tries to describe the Dutch/Flemish pipe (which you
do quite nicely) by saying what it is NOT like. I know the Flemish pipes,
you know them but how to recognize it from his description ????
Groetjes (whatever that is :-),
Thomas
Maarten van Damme
Okay here goes...
Troy exactly decribes what I meant. Can you expect from someone who is
Dutch to correctly describe all the parts on a bagpipe in English?
My confusing intro was to describe the fact that I have seen several
Dutch/Flemish/French types of bagpipes. Apart from the position of the
drones in/on the bag I mentioned the fact that some of them are
mouth-blown and some of them are with bellows. Even the same
type/style of bagpipes seems to be available in both mouth-blown or
bellows version. I want to know what the differences and advantages of
both systems are?(apart from the price - bellows is more expensive)
Thanks,
Maarten
On 17 Apr 1997 18:04:07 GMT, sa...@mi.uni-erlangen.de (Thomas Sauer)
wrote:
Barry Say
In message <33520442...@news.xs4all.nl>, Maarten van Damme
<mvd...@xs4all.nl> writes
>
>Hi All,
>
>Last weekend I had an impressive introduction to continental piping. I
>did not realize that there are hundreds of pipers in Holland playing
>traditional French, Belgium and Dutch type of bagpipes.
>
>This newsgroup gives you the impression everyone plays GHB until you
>discover there are probably more people playing "Continental bagpipes"
>than GHB in The Netherlands.
<snip>
>
>Could some-one explain to me what the main differences are in sound
>(quality)and expression between mouth-blown and bellows. Also why this
>is the case if possible?
>
I do not know the effects which you are describing, but speaking
entirely from the narrow viewpoint of NSP.
For the case of otherwise identical pipes:
1) There could be a difference of tone due to the moisture of the air.
2) It would be considered poor piping if effects of the bellows were
detectable. I presume the same is true of mouthblown pipes.
This could be interesting|
--
Barry Say
Jim McGill
Stephan Erber wrote:
>
[much stuff deleted]
>
> As far as I know, there should be no difference between mouth-blown
> and bellows-blown bagpipes. Some bagpipe makers even make mouth-blown
> sets which can be upgraded later with a bellows.
I was one time talking to a Serbian bagpipe maker who made both mouth
and bellows blown pipes He refered to the mouth blown pipes as a young
man's set and the belows blown as an old man's set. When I asked him
why, he said "At home we don't have these." and took out his false
teeth!!! After you loose your teeth (which everyone over 35 or so did),
you can't hold the blow pipe so you go to using a bellows. Interesting
insight into traditional living conditions.
Jim
Michael T Averill
In article <0o912le...@Urien.DoCS.UU.SE>, Olle Gallmo
<cr...@docs.uu.se> writes
>
>> There was a noticeble difference in sound and expression between the
>> same (type of) bagpipe, mouth-blown or bellows 'driven'.
>
>> (quality)and expression between mouth-blown and bellows. Also why this
>> is the case if possible?
>
>There is a limit to how thin you can shave a reed in a mouthblown
>instrument, due to problems with humidity. One of the advantages of
>bellows-blown instruments is that the reeds can be made thinner,
>causing a more silent, less air-consuming and more pleasant sound
>(subject to opinion of course). If you were to play such a thin reed
>in a mouth blown bagpipe you would probably destroy it.
>
> /Crwth
A more significant difference is that a large number of mouth blown
cornemuse players use plastic reeds made from yogurt pot because they
are more reliable in wet conditions than cane.
Due to sinus problems I am about to convert my mouth blown cornemuse to
bellows blown and would like to make a new bag. Does any one have a
pattern/template for a Bechonnet style bag ??
Michael T Averill