BAGPIPE> scottish smallpipes info
Raistlin88
Form my last post " so many forms of bagpipes how do I decide" I think I
decided to learn the bellows blown SSP in D. Now I have a few questions for
anyone who knows about them. First of all what's the best place to buy them
from? I've heard that buying from an individual maker is better than buying
from a company (sheperd, naill) is this true or do companies make good SSP.
Also what kind of tutor do I need, I aready play the GHB so could I just get a
tune book and play it like the GHB or does it have different fingering? Are
there any other differences from the GHB (besides bellows)? Thanks for any
help.
Stuart R. Hall
Well, couple of things. First, unless you have seen and played an SSP in D,
I don't recommend it. The SSP D chanter is a high D, and the thing is TINY.
Your fingers are very cramped, it's usually impossible to use the flats of
the fingers of your upper hand like you would with your GHB chanter. I
personally would recommend A, since it's a good fiddle pitch, works well
with other Scottish musicians, and the chanter's nice and big, with a stretch
very similar to the GHB. D is really good for playing with Irish
musicians, since the flute is in D, but you have to decide if playing with
other (Irish) musicians is important.
The maker has something to do with the finger spacing, though. I have
heard that Hamish Moore's D chanters are nice and (relatively) big; I have
a mouthblown set in D by Shepherd which is actually really playable. I
tend to
like the sound of the A chanters better, since they're lower and more
pleasant to my ears.
There are several differences between the SSP and the GHB. First off, the
chanter has a cylindrical bore. This means that the funky fingerings you can
use on a GHB to get accidentals (C natural, F natural, etc.) just plain don't
work. If you want extra notes, the chanter has to be made with keys. I have
a Nick Whitmer A chanter with three keys: a high B, F natural, and C natural.
The F natural and C natural are really nice and really expand the rep. The
high B is nice for so-called "border pipe" music, which often calls for a high
B.
The bellows are another difference, and NEVER underestimate how different a
bellows is from your diaphragm. First, you can keep a GHB going with it off
your arm, just using lungpower. Not so with a bellows! You have to squeeze
with the bag arm while you're inflating the bag, just less than when you're
refilling the bellows. Plus, it's a lot easier to play a bellows-blown pipe
when the bag hovers between, say, 3/4 and 1/2-3/8 full. We're used to blowing
our arms "off the bags" when inflating the GHB, which just doesn't happen
with an SSP. Bellows take a while to get used to. They're really nice,
but they're really different and (I think) more tricky than breath.
You can just get a tune book and play it like a GHB, using the same gracings
and everything. Some of the gracenotes, junk like crunluath and the like,
may not sound quite right on an SSP because it responds differently. It
seems to me like it actually improves your gracenote technique to get good
at a smallpipe chanter, because, for the gracing to sound good, the individual
elements of the gracenote have to be a little more open than what you can get
away with on a big chanter. That's just my opinion, though, and I'll probably
get flamed for calling crunluath "junk," but hey, I like piobaireachd as much
as the next guy, just not on the smallpipes.
Smallpipes have their own tradition. Different (and similar) tunes, but
probably the biggest difference is that you can grace how you jolly-well
please, because smallpipes (like the UP) belong to a solo tradition, unlike
the GHB which has been systematized by years of use in (chiefly military)
ensembles. You want to slur there? Slur! You want to use a hornpipe cutting
there? Cut away! Books written specifically for the border or smallpipe
often don't contain the gracenotes. As a dyed-in-the-wool GHB player, sometimes
I'd like a little direction in the way of gracing, because my inclination is
to throw doublings, grips, and birls all over the place. But maybe that's
just me.
As far as where to get them . . . I have a combination A/D set (five drones,
two chanters) from Nick Whitmer. It's a great pipe, and you can't beat the
price. My only complaint is that the D chanter is too small for my big paws.
But hey, the A chanter with the keywork is very nice. Nick's email address
is nwhi...@leo.vsla.edu if you'd like to contact him. I'd also recommend
checking out the Bagpipe Web pipemakers' page, which can be found at:
http://pipes.tico.com/pipes/Makers/Pipemakers.html
You can even hear a clip of me, butchering a Hamish Moore tune on a set of
Nick's smallpipes. (The tune is played on the A chanter, with, if memory
serves, three drones going.)
Of course, there are other makers as well. Hamish Moore is considered among
the finest; his pipes are really expensive, though, and you'll have to wait
more than a year. You should probably also check out Colin Ross if you want
expensive pipes; I believe it was Colin who made the first modern set of
smallpipes. He can be found somewhere on the NSP page; I don't think he
has a listing on the Bagpipe Web. The NSP link is:
http://www.nspipes.demon.co.uk/nsp/ww5make.htm
Anyway, I hope this helps to some small extent. You may at some point have
realized that I am very busy, and am a procrastinator par excellence.
Stuart
--
Stuart Hall
(stu...@onramp.net)
Todd Muscat
Raistlin88 wrote:
> Form my last post " so many forms of bagpipes how do I decide" I think
> I
> decided to learn the bellows blown SSP in D.
I have an excellent set of Hamish Moore SSPs in D, for sale $1,800 US.
Cheers
Todd
Martin Hungerford
Not much to add on the subject except to say that D chanter is used for many
Scotts tunes too. IMHO you need more than 3 keys. My A chanter has 6 (low
G#, Cnat, Fnat, G#, high B and high Cnat). This was probably too many.
more important than the keys are the reeds. SSP are not a practise
instrument for the GHP and should not sound like one! :)
Martin
Raistlin88
I found a set of Ray Sloan scottish smallpipes for salw for $739 are these
good pipes and this a good deal?
Stuart R. Hall
In article <34fe0...@203.14.212.6>, "Martin Hungerford"
<jong...@netcon.net.au> wrote:
I agree with you on the reeds, but I disagree on keys. I think an SSP
chanter with three keys is pushing clunkiness. Folks like Hamish Moore
won't even make chanters with keys; I think Moore used to, but doesn't
anymore. The parallel-bored chanter just isn't all that flexible; it's
much easier IMHO to play chromatics on a conical chanter. If you need
all those notes, that is.
Stuart
Ian Lawther
In article <87a07979...@aol.com>, Raistlin88 <Raist...@aol.com>
writes
>I found a set of Ray Sloan scottish smallpipes for salw for $739 are these
>good pipes and this a good deal?
$739 sounds good. However you don't say what key they are in, if new or
which model. He does a set which he calls "Bywell", which are plainer,
and more economical, and fully mounted sets.
-- /
Ian Lawther http://www.northernlight.demon.co.uk/ian2.htm O///
Faversham, <|o>
Kent, UK. |\
||
Bill Telfer
Stuart R. Hall wrote:
> cut
First, unless you have seen and played an SSP in D,
> I don't recommend it. The SSP D chanter is a high D, and the thing is TINY.
> Your fingers are very cramped, it's usually impossible to use the flats of
> the fingers of your upper hand like you would with your GHB chanter.
Cant agree with this. Actually it depends on how hard you're prepared
to practice and learn the D smallpipes. All the top exponents play them
in much the same way as they do the GHB-eg Gordon Mooney, Hamish Moore,
Ian MacInnes-listen to the Smalltalk CD or recent new Ossian
release.Another example is Robert Wallace on his Breakthrough CD or any
recent Whistlebinkies albums-in fact until a few years ago the only
smallpipes he played seems to have been a tiny Eb set and never missed a
gracenote!
I
> personally would recommend A, since it's a good fiddle pitch, works well
> with other Scottish musicians, and the chanter's nice and big, with a stretch
> very similar to the GHB.
This is true but it has the problem of been so low pitched that the
sound doesnt carry or cut through in group or session playing-ok though
if you're playing duet with a fiddler, and amplified ! Basically its a
bit dull.
D is really good for playing with Irish
> musicians, since the flute is in D, but you have to decide if playing with
> other (Irish) musicians is important.
not just Irish-traditional instrumentalists generally seem to like
playing in D and G which is just what the D ssp does.
>
snip
> The bellows are another difference, and NEVER underestimate how different a
> bellows is from your diaphragm. First, you can keep a GHB going with it off
> your arm, just using lungpower. Not so with a bellows! You have to squeeze
> with the bag arm while you're inflating the bag, just less than when you're
> refilling the bellows. Plus, it's a lot easier to play a bellows-blown pipe
> when the bag hovers between, say, 3/4 and 1/2-3/8 full.
Hmm maybe I should have had a little blow on my smallpipes just to
check, before saying any more, but I'm fairly sure a firm full bag is
just as important with bellows pipes as it is with mouth-blown ones.
it's just that with good bellows technique, its effortless and maybe
gives you the impression the there's not much pressure in the bag?
Enjoyed your posting though, Stuart.
Bill Telfer
Martin Hungerford
Stuart R. Hall wrote in message ...
>I agree with you on the reeds, but I disagree on keys. I think an SSP
>chanter with three keys is pushing clunkiness. Folks like Hamish Moore
>won't even make chanters with keys; I think Moore used to, but doesn't
>anymore. The parallel-bored chanter just isn't all that flexible; it's
>much easier IMHO to play chromatics on a conical chanter. If you need
>all those notes, that is.
>
>Stuart
The parrallel bore is flexible enough - look at the NSP (17+ keys!) - its
more the player. Moore is coming from a GHB background and therefore is
stronger in keyless systems. (by the way: which three keys?)
I think we may actually be in agreement about wheather you really need all
those notes however. My six keyed chanter has never been a great success -
probably, because I've not spent the time to learn it. I had the last key
added for a particular tune (hole in the wall) and still haven't learnt it!
Martin
Mike
Bill Telfer wrote:
>
> Stuart R. Hall wrote:
> > cut
> > I don't recommend it. The SSP D chanter is a high D, and the thing is TINY.
> > Your fingers are very cramped, it's usually impossible to use the flats of
> > the fingers of your upper hand like you would with your GHB chanter.
>
> to practice and learn the D smallpipes. All the top exponents play them
> in much the same way as they do the GHB-eg Gordon Mooney, Hamish Moore,
> Ian MacInnes-listen to the Smalltalk CD or recent new Ossian
> release.Another example is Robert Wallace on his Breakthrough CD or any
> recent Whistlebinkies albums-in fact until a few years ago the only
> smallpipes he played seems to have been a tiny Eb set and never missed a
> gracenote!
> > personally would recommend A, since it's a good fiddle pitch, works well
> > with other Scottish musicians, and the chanter's nice and big, with a stretch
> > very similar to the GHB.
>
> sound doesnt carry or cut through in group or session playing-ok though
> if you're playing duet with a fiddler, and amplified ! Basically its a
> bit dull.
>
> > musicians, since the flute is in D, but you have to decide if playing with
> > other (Irish) musicians is important.
>
> playing in D and G which is just what the D ssp does.
> >
> snip
> > bellows is from your diaphragm. First, you can keep a GHB going with it off
> > your arm, just using lungpower. Not so with a bellows! You have to squeeze
> > with the bag arm while you're inflating the bag, just less than when you're
> > refilling the bellows. Plus, it's a lot easier to play a bellows-blown pipe
> > when the bag hovers between, say, 3/4 and 1/2-3/8 full.
>
> check, before saying any more, but I'm fairly sure a firm full bag is
> just as important with bellows pipes as it is with mouth-blown ones.
> it's just that with good bellows technique, its effortless and maybe
> gives you the impression the there's not much pressure in the bag?
>
> Enjoyed your posting though, Stuart.
>
> Bill Telfer
A piper in Mendiceno CA told me that you should keep the back about 75%
full for better controll,, Try it, Its alot eiser and usually sounds
better, He plays just about every bagpipe made so I usually go by what
he says,
Mike
M. & M. Hamilton
SSP in C is also an alternative. The chanter is considerably easier to
finger than a D chanter. An excellent key for other musicians as well.
----------
> From: Bill Telfer <telo...@netvigator.com>
> To: bag...@piobaire.mines.uidaho.edu
> Subject: Re: BAGPIPE> scottish smallpipes info
> Date: Sunday, March 08, 1998 6:52 AM
ArrahCee
>SSP in C is also an alternative. The chanter is considerably easier to
>finger than a D chanter. An excellent key for other musicians as well.
I've often wondered about smallpipes in C-- who would you
play with, a Cajun band?
Occasionally a fiddler will do a tune in C just to mess with
others in sessions, but I've run across very few C tunes.
Rick
Stuart R. Hall
> Stuart R. Hall wrote:
> > cut
> First, unless you have seen and played an SSP in D,
> > I don't recommend it. The SSP D chanter is a high D, and the thing is TINY.
> > Your fingers are very cramped, it's usually impossible to use the flats of
> > the fingers of your upper hand like you would with your GHB chanter.
>
> Cant agree with this. Actually it depends on how hard you're prepared
> to practice and learn the D smallpipes. All the top exponents play them
> in much the same way as they do the GHB-eg Gordon Mooney, Hamish Moore,
> Ian MacInnes-listen to the Smalltalk CD or recent new Ossian
> release.Another example is Robert Wallace on his Breakthrough CD or any
> recent Whistlebinkies albums-in fact until a few years ago the only
> smallpipes he played seems to have been a tiny Eb set and never missed a
> gracenote!
Well, I think you should withhold comment before disagreeing completely.
Not all D chanters are the same size. Yes, Hamish Moore DOES play his D
chanter with the flats of the fingers of the upper hand. If you talk to
him, however, he states quite plainly, and in so many words, that his D
chanter is the LONGEST D chanter available, and is the one of the only
D chanters which allows you to play with the flats of the fingers of your
upper hand. It is, in fact, one of his biggest selling points for the
high D chanter. It makes me think that he believes there are makers whose
chanters are shorter than his, and therefore difficult to play in the
traditional finger-flats style.
The other thing is . . . I have big hands, and they're not the biggest I've
seen. My fingers are millimeters from being unable to get close enough
to cover the top three holes when touching each other.
> Enjoyed your posting though, Stuart.
>
> Bill Telfer
Maybe not as much as I like replying. People seem to be misunderstanding
me lately on this NG. Maybe I need to switch to the UP exclusively. :)
Stuart
Bill Telfer
They're really nice to play solo.More comfortable finger spacing than D
chanters, yet brighter sound than Bb or A. I have them all so I know.
You can play with Northumbrian smallpipers, which are pitched in concert
F or F# (approx).
Bill Telfer
Raistlin88
Does anyone no the size of a Ray Sloan D smallpipe chanter? Is it the size of
a "regular" practice chanter or smaller or bigger?
M. & M. Hamilton
Transpose, Transpose, Transpose !
As painfully as it is, you can play with about any instrument with some
transposing. Sure, some tunes may sound better in a specific key. But if
you are trying to play pipes with a folk group-everyone has to tune with
YOU! Unlike a classical arrangement, where everyone tunes to the violin. So
bottom line, when playing with other musicians they play in your key. As to
chanter size, I have made some crude measurements. These would be more
accurate in millimeters, but hey, I am a die hard inches guy. The distances
below are the top hand distances between notes, since these are the most
"troublesome" on the SSP. These approximations are illustrative only, and
on center of the hole:
GHB SSP C SSP D
F to G 13/16 9/16 7/16
E to F 16/16 13/16 13/16
Note the greatest difference is between the F to G.
MH
---------
> From: Bill Telfer <telo...@netvigator.com>
> To: bag...@piobaire.mines.uidaho.edu
> Subject: Re: BAGPIPE> scottish smallpipes info
> Date: Thursday, March 12, 1998 6:08 AM
ArrahCee
>Transpose, Transpose, Transpose !
>
>As painfully as it is, you can play with about any instrument with some
>transposing. Sure, some tunes may sound better in a specific key. But if
>you are trying to play pipes with a folk group-everyone has to tune with
>YOU! Unlike a classical
Well, OK-- but show up at a session with a set of C pipes and
see how far you get. I've played both uillean and SSP in
folk band settings also, so I know what you mean about having
to tune to the pipes. But having the fiddlers tune to C for the
sake of a few pipe tunes is asking a lot. Of course if your fiddler
happens to own two of them one can be tuned down (as in the
case of playing with GHB where one can be tuned up)-- BUT
if playing in a folk band is one's main aim, D or A pipes will
certainly make life easier. C SSP's DO sound good (I wish
I could afford another set, I'd get some), but expecting everybody
to tune to C to play with you is not very realistic, in my experience.
What you could do, of course, is plan to have a few tunes solo,
or maybe with a bodhran or whistle player while the flute and
fiddle players go get you a beer!
The last band I played in I ended up playing mostly solo tunes
to break up the set, even though I was playing A SSP-- this
was because the fiddler didn't like the sound of the pipes
even though A is God's Key on fiddle. So who knows, you
may run across a viola player that will be happy to play in C...
Rick
M. & M. Hamilton
I follow what your saying. Perhaps it's how you approach it. If your
playing with the same folks regularly, maybe not as big a problem. Fliddler
vs concert trained may also be a consideration. The person I play with is
the latter and does not mind playing in C. We transpose a lot to get
harmonies. For instance, I will give her a standard sheet of GHB music, I
am playing it in C, and we transpose her a 3rd or 5h above (that's the
painful part).
MH
----------
> From: ArrahCee <arra...@aol.com>
> To: bag...@piobaire.mines.uidaho.edu
> Subject: Re: BAGPIPE> scottish smallpipes info
> Date: Thursday, March 12, 1998 4:28 PM
Royce Lerwick
On 12 Mar 1998 16:28:52 GMT, arra...@aol.com (ArrahCee) wrote:
>The last band I played in I ended up playing mostly solo tunes
>to break up the set, even though I was playing A SSP-- this
>was because the fiddler didn't like the sound of the pipes
>even though A is God's Key on fiddle. So who knows, you
>may run across a viola player that will be happy to play in C...
This must be a carryover of an idiotic thread in rec.music.celtic.
Royce
You buy a whistle or UP in D. You buy a flute in D. You buy pipes in A
if you can get them, if not you buy them in D. A or D is fine for any
fiddle tune or guitar. C is an academic spartasses's key who's
slumming in the folk genre because he thinks it makes him exotic and
earthy. If you have to explain why C is all but useless, just go play
in a recorder ensemble with a piano alongside and leave us folk
musicians out of it please.
Royce
If you pretend you can use a C whistle to transpose into anything like
useful music along with D and A pipes or whistles, you have absolutely
no clue.
ArrahCee
>If you have to explain why C is all but useless, just go play
>in a recorder ensemble with a piano alongside and leave us folk
>musicians out of it please.
>
>Royce
Royce,
If you'd read what I was saying, you'd have seen I was
trying to keep people from buying C pipes with the idea of
playing anything by solo. As you point out, D and A are by
far the best choices-- and I've played UP in D and SSP in
A in folk bands-- I'm not entirely dim.
You know, I recommended to a friend just last week to
check out your pipes on your web site since he wants to
play in D but cannot abide the idea of bellows. I'll rethink
that endorsement now. You're not going to sell many of those
things by insulting people.
Rick
Rick
DicksonDL
In a message dated 3/14/98 12:15:13 AM, pmlerwick wrote:
<<On 12 Mar 1998 16:28:52 GMT, arra...@aol.com (ArrahCee) wrote:
SNIP
>. . .So who knows, you
>may run across a viola player that will be happy to play in C...
<This must be a carryover of an idiotic thread in rec.music.celtic.>
Actually, Royce, it was a thread discussing the relative
advantages/disadvantages of owning a set of smallpipes in the key of C.
<You buy a whistle or UP in D. You buy a flute in D. You buy pipes in A
if you can get them, if not you buy them in D. A or D is fine for any
fiddle tune or guitar.>
Gee, Royce, did you know that there are also flat sets of UP in C?
< C is an academic spartasses's key who's
slumming in the folk genre because he thinks it makes him exotic and
earthy. If you have to explain why C is all but useless, just go play
in a recorder ensemble with a piano alongside and leave us folk
musicians out of it please.>
I wonder if you are displaying a bit of prejudice. Agreed, most Irish music
is written in G, D and A, (O'Neill's collection) but look at older Scottish
music (ie Capt. Simon Fraser Collection, the Skye Collection, the music of
Niel and Nathaniel Gow, etc.) and you'll find plenty of good tunes in C, F,
Bb, Eb, Ab, and even Db. And if you doubt the beauty of these tunes, give a
listen to Alistair Fraser's album, Skye Dance.
<If you pretend you can use a C whistle to transpose into anything like
useful music along with D and A pipes or whistles, you have absolutely
no clue.>>
Royce, you have accused others of commenting on a thread without looking at
earlier posting via DejaNews. No one said anything about using a C whistle to
transpose music to play along with D and A pipes. What I had said, and someone
else also commented, was that if you own a set of C pipes, don't expect to be
able to play along with other musicians on their tunes, THEY would have to
accompany you on YOUR tunes. And, by the way, C is not a bad key for harps,
guitars, fiddles, and obviously, C whistles.
The point being made was that the C smallpipes sound very nice, but don't buy
them if your goal is to play in sessions.
Duane Dickson
M. & M. Hamilton
Royce,
"To let the self be awakened by all things is enlightment. Then.... there
are those who are deluded by delusion" Dogen Kigen
Laughingly ( in the key of C) the "Exotic and Earthy" one
----------
> From: DicksonDL <Dick...@aol.com>
> To: bag...@piobaire.mines.uidaho.edu
> Subject: Re: BAGPIPE> scottish smallpipes info
> Date: Saturday, March 14, 1998 4:05 PM
Jack Campin
pmle...@wavetech.net (Royce Lerwick) writes:
[anent using smallpipes in C]
> You buy a whistle or UP in D.
If you're Cathal McConnell you buy one whistle in D and one in C and
tape them together.
> You buy a flute in D.
Unless you're in a traditional flute band in which case it will be in B flat.
> A or D is fine for any fiddle tune or guitar.
Played much William Marshall lately?
> C is an academic spartasses's key who's slumming in the folk genre
> because he thinks it makes him exotic and earthy.
There aren't a lot of Scottish tunes printed in C, but I can't imagine who
the heck you have in mind here.
> If you have to explain why C is all but useless, just go play in a
> recorder ensemble with a piano alongside and leave us folk musicians
> out of it please.
Since recorders have been documented as playing Scots music for at least
as long as the pipes, and there is written Scots folk music for the alto
recorder that predates any notated Highland pipe music by fifty years,
this insult is some way off base. (If you actually knew anything about
how recorders work, you'd also realize that C is next to impossible for
playing any Scots tunes on with a descant and not too good for pipe tunes
with an alto; a "C" descant recorder fingers most like a D flute or whistle,
and an "F" alto like a G whistle).
> If you pretend you can use a C whistle to transpose into anything like
> useful music along with D and A pipes or whistles, you have absolutely
> no clue.
A C whistle is just perfect for playing _John Stephen of Chance Inn_
along with fiddles or accordions in the key it was written in. Can't
say I've found a lot of other use for one in public, but they have a
softer tone that makes them slightly better for practice in a small flat.
---> email to "jc" at the site in the header: mail to "jack" will bounce <---
Jack Campin 2 Haddington Place, Edinburgh EH7 4AE, Scotland 0131 556 5272
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh & Scots folk music from "Off the Edge"
Raistlin88
I'ver seen sets of SSP's for sale with a D and an A chanter. Does this work
with all SSP, can you buy a set a D smallpipes then buy an A chanter and use
that in the D pipes. Will the drones of a set in D still sound good with an A
chanter. Will the same thing work for an uillean chanter if the smallpipes are
bellows blown?
DicksonDL
The reason the D/A combination works is that the 'D' pipes already have an 'A'
baritone drone. Usually, for the combination to work, an 'A' bass drone is
added, and the 'D' bass is outfitted with a sleeve to allow it to play like an
E baritone. At least this is how my set is set up. It was originally a Hamish
Moore 'D' set, and Hamish added the extra drone and supplied me with the A
chanter. This necessitated changing the common drone stock.
Duane
Royce Lerwick
On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:41:37 EST, Raistlin88 <Raist...@aol.com>
wrote:
>I'ver seen sets of SSP's for sale with a D and an A chanter. Does this work
>with all SSP, can you buy a set a D smallpipes then buy an A chanter and use
>that in the D pipes. Will the drones of a set in D still sound good with an A
>chanter. Will the same thing work for an uillean chanter if the smallpipes are
>bellows blown?
Make sure it's an interchangeable drone set, which I think has an A
and a D drone along with whatever tenor/baritone setup is
used--otherwise you will have problems.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
On 15 Mar 1998 01:07:25 GMT, ja...@purr.demon.co.uk (Jack Campin)
wrote:
>Since recorders have been documented as playing Scots music for at least
>as long as the pipes, and there is written Scots folk music for the alto
>recorder that predates any notated Highland pipe music by fifty years,
>this insult is some way off base. (If you actually knew anything about
>how recorders work, you'd also realize that C is next to impossible for
>playing any Scots tunes on with a descant and not too good for pipe tunes
>with an alto; a "C" descant recorder fingers most like a D flute or whistle,
>and an "F" alto like a G whistle).
I rest my case.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
On Sat, 14 Mar 1998 11:05:18 EST, DicksonDL <Dick...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>In a message dated 3/14/98 12:15:13 AM, pmlerwick wrote:
>
><<On 12 Mar 1998 16:28:52 GMT, arra...@aol.com (ArrahCee) wrote:
>
>SNIP
>>. . .So who knows, you
>>may run across a viola player that will be happy to play in C...
>
><This must be a carryover of an idiotic thread in rec.music.celtic.>
>
>Actually, Royce, it was a thread discussing the relative
>advantages/disadvantages of owning a set of smallpipes in the key of C.
There are no advantages of owning a set of scottish smallpipes in the
key of C. Why are you discussing it?
And incidentally, the same idiotic discussion about the key of C in
whistles was going on and I don't think it's a coincidence eh?
>
><You buy a whistle or UP in D. You buy a flute in D. You buy pipes in A
>if you can get them, if not you buy them in D. A or D is fine for any
>fiddle tune or guitar.>
>
>Gee, Royce, did you know that there are also flat sets of UP in C?
They come in a number of keys but unfortunately for you, smartass,
concert D became the standard with Leo Rowsome or before, so for the
past almost 100 years this debate has been moot.
>
>< C is an academic spartasses's key who's
>slumming in the folk genre because he thinks it makes him exotic and
>earthy. If you have to explain why C is all but useless, just go play
>in a recorder ensemble with a piano alongside and leave us folk
>musicians out of it please.>
>
>I wonder if you are displaying a bit of prejudice. Agreed, most Irish music
>is written in G, D and A, (O'Neill's collection) but look at older Scottish
>music (ie Capt. Simon Fraser Collection, the Skye Collection, the music of
>Niel and Nathaniel Gow, etc.) and you'll find plenty of good tunes in C, F,
>Bb, Eb, Ab, and even Db. And if you doubt the beauty of these tunes, give a
>listen to Alistair Fraser's album, Skye Dance.
The key it's written in is irrelevant and always has been. Pipers
standardized writing in their standard keys and the rest of these
collections are entirely randomly notated in whatever key the compiler
felt would luck out to be best for playing not necessarily with
pipers.
>
><If you pretend you can use a C whistle to transpose into anything like
>useful music along with D and A pipes or whistles, you have absolutely
>no clue.>>
>
>Royce, you have accused others of commenting on a thread without looking at
>earlier posting via DejaNews. No one said anything about using a C whistle to
>transpose music to play along with D and A pipes. What I had said, and someone
>else also commented, was that if you own a set of C pipes, don't expect to be
>able to play along with other musicians on their tunes, THEY would have to
>accompany you on YOUR tunes. And, by the way, C is not a bad key for harps,
>guitars, fiddles, and obviously, C whistles.
C is a key that's great if you're Bob Dylan and I'm too tired of
explaining that the entire host of keys spin off a base of D major and
that's why you get the pipes in A mixolydian in the middle range and
tunes composed with a base of G in the UP etc and that weird range, 4
down and 8-10 up, because they were composed in modes on pipes or
whistles limited to that range.
>The point being made was that the C smallpipes sound very nice, but don't buy
>them if your goal is to play in sessions.
The real point is, C smallpipes are a $1000 freak instrument that will
be all but useless to you no matter how good they sound. Unless you
are a virtuoso, and plan to play solo forever, forget it. Keyboard
players and everyone else really don't have to play in C whether they
can or not, they can just as easily play in normal Celtic keys with
normal Celtic instruments, so you're really blowing fuzz out yer arse
if you even have to debate any "advantages" of a freak C key toy
instrument in the first place.
Just because it's possible doesn't mean you should do it.
Royce
DicksonDL
In a message dated 3/16/98 11:15:48 PM, pmlerwick wrote:
(major snippage throughout)
<<There are no advantages of owning a set of scottish smallpipes in the
key of C. Why are you discussing it?>
Because someone questioned it in reference to the differences in finger=
=0Aspacing and sound of A, D, and C smallpipes, and I happen to own one o=
f each.=0AI was trying to be helpful.
<And incidentally, the same idiotic discussion about the key of C in
whistles was going on and I don't think it's a coincidence eh?>
Must have been.
<They come in a number of keys but unfortunately for you, smartass,
concert D became the standard with Leo Rowsome or before, so for the
past almost 100 years this debate has been moot.>
No argument. D is standard. But still, some pipers OCCASIONALLY play the =
flat=0Asets today.
<The key it's written in is irrelevant and always has been. Pipers
standardized writing in their standard keys and the rest of these
collections are entirely randomly notated in whatever key the compiler
felt would luck out to be best for playing not necessarily with
pipers.>
I was referring to fiddle music collections. I believe that the Scottish=
=0Acomposers chose the particular keys for the effect it would have on th=
e tune.
<The real point is, C smallpipes are a $1000 freak instrument that will
be all but useless to you no matter how good they sound. Unless you
are a virtuoso, and plan to play solo forever, forget it. Keyboard
players and everyone else really don't have to play in C whether they
can or not, they can just as easily play in normal Celtic keys with
normal Celtic instruments, so you're really blowing fuzz out yer arse
if you even have to debate any "advantages" of a freak C key toy
instrument in the first place.>
I think I paid less than half that for my C pipes, but that was over ten =
years=0Aago.
I hope that you aren't intimating that smallpipes are toys. Perhaps just =
the C=0Asmallpipes? All the rest are okay? I should perhaps just stop pla=
ying my C=0Apipes in public because I'm going to offend my audiences by n=
ot playing in=0A"normal Celtic keys" ? (Oooops, sorry=97being a smartass =
again).
They still sound nicer than the A smallpipes, but hey that's just my opin=
ion.=0A(And Hamish Moore's, if I may quote him). But, again, I would NOT =
recommend=0Athem to anyone whose goal is playing with fiddles, bouzouki's=
and flutes in=0Athe standard "Celtic Music" repertoire. D and A are defi=
nitely the keys for=0Athat.
<Just because it's possible doesn't mean you should do it.
Royce>>
Like raising the GHB from A to B flat in order to play with British milit=
ary=0Abrass bands? Does that mean we no longer play in a "normal Celtic k=
ey"?
Duane
P.S., Royce. You haven't had too much to say of late. It's nice to see yo=
u get=0Aback into offering your insightful comments and wisdom. Things ha=
ve been a=0Alittle quiet lately here on the list.
Bill Telfer
Royce Lerwick wrote:
>
>
>
> There are no advantages of owning a set of scottish smallpipes in the
> key of C. Why are you discussing it?
>
>
>
> be all but useless to you no matter how good they sound.
The most recent two or three sets of Scottish smallpipes I have seen
each came with both a D and a C chanter. The drones tuning up and down a
tone. (Made by Colin Ross).
As discussed earlier on this thread, despite obvious disadvantages, C is
comfortable to finger and the pitch is mellow to the ear. C is obviously
suited mainly for solo or limited group (eg smallpipe trio) playing, or
along with Northumbrian Smallpipes, rather than for sessions or with
traditional/folk groups where the D/G chanter comes into its own.My own
C chanter I play plugged into my NSP, the latter being a transposing F/C
instrument, so it works perfectly.
Using the 'useless' argument it could be said that NSP,s should all be
made in G.The traditional pitch of the NSP is something sharp of F but
most sets nowadays are probably made in concert F. Even tho G sets are
reasonably popular, particularly for people wanting to play in sessions
etc., most Northumbrian pipers stick to F because the pitch sounds
'right' for the instrument and the finger spacing is natural. Quite a
few other instrumentalists who want to play with NSP's make the effort
to adapt and play in F and C.
So without seeing a mass upsurge of C SSP's they seem to me a perfectly
legitimate option/alternative for those who might like to play them for
whatever reason, and provided their limitations in the folk/traditional
instrumentalist context is appreciated.
Bill Telfer
Royce Lerwick
>Using the 'useless' argument it could be said that NSP,s should all be
>made in G.The traditional pitch of the NSP is something sharp of F but
>most sets nowadays are probably made in concert F. Even tho G sets are
>reasonably popular, particularly for people wanting to play in sessions
>etc., most Northumbrian pipers stick to F because the pitch sounds
>'right' for the instrument and the finger spacing is natural. Quite a
>few other instrumentalists who want to play with NSP's make the effort
>to adapt and play in F and C.
No, once again, NSP sets are converging on the key of D, with a wider
span and living with the different feel for the sake of being able to
play with normal instruments. One of the singular most damning
features of the NSP and probably the main reason for its utter
obscurity, has in fact been its bizarre pitch and this more than any
single or combined other factor has restricted them historically to
playing with themselves. So, if you wish simply to play with yourself
the rest of your life, go buy smallpipes in C.
>
>So without seeing a mass upsurge of C SSP's they seem to me a perfectly
>legitimate option/alternative for those who might like to play them for
>whatever reason, and provided their limitations in the folk/traditional
>instrumentalist context is appreciated.
>
>Bill Telfer
Yeah yeah, you got a set or what? Rushing out to buy one?
A is the key for ssp unless you come from the NSP tradition, or are
just really damned good and can live with the precious finger spacing
and adapt you GHB technique to fingertip or near-fingertip style
execution.
If you're buying one set follow the rules already outlined. If you're
made of money and want to dabble in a host of erudite keys for the
sake of proving it can be done, knock yourself out.
Royce
Stuart R. Hall
In article <35106676...@news.wavetech.net>, pmle...@wavetech.net
(Royce Lerwick) wrote:
>
> Yeah yeah, you got a set or what? Rushing out to buy one?
>
> A is the key for ssp unless you come from the NSP tradition, or are
> just really damned good and can live with the precious finger spacing
> and adapt you GHB technique to fingertip or near-fingertip style
> execution.
>
> If you're buying one set follow the rules already outlined. If you're
> made of money and want to dabble in a host of erudite keys for the
> sake of proving it can be done, knock yourself out.
>
> Royce
You know, it looks like people are getting on Royce's case AGAIN, but
regardless of bygones . . . listen to him this time. So Hamish Moore
says C is the nicest key. So what! Are you going to spend more than $1500
and wait more than a year and a half for one of his C sets?
For the overwhelming majority of SSP players (those who are not writing
music and recording CDs), A is just THE way to go. People CAN play with
you in A, but how important is that? You can buy a set in A, and nearly
EVERY maker will sell you a drone stock with extra, plugged holes so you
can order the makings of a combo set in the future. D is a LOT more useful
than C. If you argue that you want to play by yourself, then there is no
question that A makes the best choice. The chanter is nice and big. If
playing with other instruments is (or becomes) important, A will work in
a LOT of settings. (Lots of good Irish flute players, for example, like
to own whistles in A.) If it turns out that you need to play in D, and you
have the money, then you can get the D chanter (and perhaps an extra drone)
and you'll have two sets in one.
Seriously, only if you can afford it should you consider C. It's just not
as useful as the other pitches, and smallpipes aren't cheap to begin with.
Also, on the flat-pitch uilleann pipe note . . . C is not even the most
common pitch there. There are a lot of sets in C#, and the vogue flat
pitch these days is B natural.
Stuart
Sledge Riprock
Stuart R. Hall wrote:
>
> You know, it looks like people are getting on Royce's case AGAIN, but
> regardless of bygones . . . listen to him this time. So Hamish Moore
> says C is the nicest key. So what! Are you going to spend more than $1500
> and wait more than a year and a half for one of his C sets?
>
So Hamish Moore is one of the best SSP makers around. That's so what. He
cares about the instrument and I and everyone else that has one of his
sets (or at least the 20 or so odd other people that I know personally
that own his sets), reguardless of what key they are in, thinks he knows
what he is doing and value his opinion because it comes from a
knowledgeable source.
You say C's aren't worth considering unless you can afford it. So what!
Who are you? From your post, you appear to be about the same as me, a
smallpiper with an opinion. If you don't agree with Hamish, that's fine,
not everyone does. I don't always agree with Hamish, and we are pretty
good friends, but don't just blow off his opinion off with a crass 'So
what!', unless you think you are more qualified than he to make such a
judgement.
> For the overwhelming majority of SSP players (those who are not writing
> music and recording CDs), A is just THE way to go. People CAN play with
> you in A, but how important is that? You can buy a set in A, and nearly
> EVERY maker will sell you a drone stock with extra, plugged holes so you
> can order the makings of a combo set in the future. D is a LOT more useful
> than C. If you argue that you want to play by yourself, then there is no
> question that A makes the best choice. The chanter is nice and big. If
> playing with other instruments is (or becomes) important, A will work in
> a LOT of settings. (Lots of good Irish flute players, for example, like
> to own whistles in A.) If it turns out that you need to play in D, and you
> have the money, then you can get the D chanter (and perhaps an extra drone)
> and you'll have two sets in one.
>
I do like A's, but I wouldn't say there is no question about it being
the best choice. You're right, it is nice and big, but for some, its too
big. People with smaller hands, esp. those of the fairer sex, sometimes
have difficulty reaching the low A hole on an A chanter. Some have
trouble covering the spread of the entire lower hand. Sure, if you're a
highland piper its usually no big deal, but not all SSP players are
highland pipers. For them the D, C,or dare I say it and begin yet
another endlsess thread, the B-flat SSPs may make more sence, depending
on how large their hand-span is.
>
> Seriously, only if you can afford it should you consider C. It's just not
> as useful as the other pitches, and smallpipes aren't cheap to begin with.
>
Define 'useful'? To the person that asked about C SSPs, useful may be a
set of smallpipes that sounds great. Useful doesn't necessarily mean a
set that you can pull out and not have fiddlers and other musicians
grimace when you tell them what key you are in.
If the person that started this thread hasn't gotten totally turned off
and is still listening, I can only add my voice to the vote that says if
you want to play solo, the C's are great. I know several people that
have C sets, and not one are disappointed. Sure, you can't always play
along in a group, but if thats not what you want to do, no problem. I
enjoy it when my friends pull out their C's and play a set or two for
the rest of us. A nice tonal break from all the A/D tunes. If my money
weren't already stretched 20 different ways, I'd be in line for a C set
myself.
Howard 'Sledge' Sanford
how...@tico.com
M. & M. Hamilton
You know it is not what you say, but HOW YOU SAY IT ! This started out with
myself and a few others engaging in friendly conversation about small pipes
and keys. It seems this news group thing is, or ought to be, about the
friendly exchange of information, ideas and opinions (since we all have
these). Rib and joke yes, but it ought to be done non-judgmentally ! Thanks
for the comments, Sledge, I at least am still following and will continue
to enjoy my set of C smallpipes (a set of Ross C pipes may be had for about
$1,000) and glad to see so will a lot of others !
----------
> From: Sledge Riprock <how...@ch9000.chem.ncsu.edu>
> To: bag...@piobaire.mines.uidaho.edu
> Subject: Re: BAGPIPE> scottish smallpipes info
> Date: Thursday, March 19, 1998 9:33 PM
Ian Lawther
In article <35106676...@news.wavetech.net>, Royce Lerwick
<pmle...@wavetech.net> writes
>
>No, once again, NSP sets are converging on the key of D, with a wider
>span and living with the different feel for the sake of being able to
>play with normal instruments. One of the singular most damning
>features of the NSP and probably the main reason for its utter
>obscurity, has in fact been its bizarre pitch and this more than any
>single or combined other factor has restricted them historically to
>playing with themselves.
Northunbrian smallpipes are not "converging" on the key of D. Whilst D
sets are available very few people play them. Go to any meeting of
Northumbrian pipers and you will find the traditional F is the norm.
Second in popularity is concert G which allows easy playing in G and D
(a D chanter would give D and A), and some players like myself have
interchangable chanters in F and G. Of the two the F is more pleasant to
listen to, and sounds right, because this is the traditional sound of
NSP.
I suspect that slotting all folk music into the keys of G,D, and to a
lesser extent A is a fairly modern thing, and in some cases does not
benefit the tunes. A lot of older fiddle tunes (and modern tunes written
by accomplished players) use different keys. The composers have done
this for a reason, and they loose something in transposition to a key
which is simple for players of diatonic instruments. Similarly
Northumbrian pipes are in the key that is "right" for them and would
loose out if altered. It is interesting to note that the uilleann pipes
were redesigned into concert D in the last century, but players still
love the sound of old flat sets (anything from C down to Bb), and some
makers specialise in the manufacture of modern sets of these.
With the Scottish smallpipes we have an instrument that was reinvented
between 15 and 20 years ago, and which, therefore, does not have a
traditional pitch. Sets have been made in most keys between D and A, and
players of these have chosen what they play depending on what they want
to use them for. Certainly A and D are the better ones for playing with
others in the keys G/D/A, but a C is a useful chanter for NSP players
who want a SSP chanter as an extra because it fits their drones, and Bb
chanters will often suit a highland piper wanting to use it as a
practice instrument.
So its horses for courses. Go for a D or A SSP chanter if you want to
play with others who restrict themselves to G/D/A (or a G NSP chanter
for the same reason), but for some players another key might suit and
there is no need to beat them up for it. And as for changing all NSP
from F to suit players of other instruments it would be throwing the
baby out with the bath water.
-- /
Ian Lawther http://www.northernlight.demon.co.uk/ian2.htm O///
Faversham, <|o>
Kent, UK. |\
||
DicksonDL
In a message dated 3/19/98 8:42:11 AM, stu...@onramp.net wrote:
<<You know, it looks like people are getting on Royce's case AGAIN, but
regardless of bygones . . . listen to him this time. So Hamish Moore
says C is the nicest key. So what! Are you going to spend more than $1500
and wait more than a year and a half for one of his C sets?>>
Stuart,
Actually, Royce was the one to jump in on our "case." No one ever mentioned
that the C pipes were as usable playing with other trad. instruments as the A
or D sets. Just imagine my surprise though to learn that my C
smallpipes--which I have played for around 14 years along with harp, guitar,
piano and other instuments--are actually totally useless.
Duane
Jack Campin
> So Hamish Moore says C is the nicest key. So what! Are you going to
> spend more than $1500 and wait more than a year and a half for one of
> his C sets?
> For the overwhelming majority of SSP players (those who are not writing
> music and recording CDs), A is just THE way to go. [...] If playing
> with other instruments is (or becomes) important, A will work in a LOT
> of settings.
Um, shouldn't what happens locally around you be a consideration here?
Mostly smallpipers play with each other; in both sessions and bands in
Scotland, I very rarely see smallpipers playing with fiddlers. (Nearly
always if there's another instrument involved it'll be a squeezebox,
equally likely to be D/A, C/G or chromatic). If you're living in Bumfuck,
Idaho, and the Bumfuck Borderers smallpipe association has standardized
on Royce's instruments in A, then obviously you go for it. Here, I get a
choice. Other places, the best players could be using anything, and if
you want to duet with them, get what they've got.
> Lots of good Irish flute players, for example, like to own whistles in A.
But they sure as hell don't like to *play* them. Most A whistles are an
acoustic disaster; you need a much wider bore than the typical Generation/
Camac design to get a decent sound, and the mass of metal required for that
with an Overton-type design gives you terrible condensation problems. The
answer is probably wide-bore plastic (not made as far as I know) or wood
(serious money). I occasionally use mine for playing Ashokan Farewell, as
it's the only whistle that can do it at the pitch fiddlers use, but tend to
see it as just another reason to hate that goddam tune. No parallel-bore
whistle with a pitch below C is audible against a smallpipe, and at the A
pitch the only whistle-type instrument with enough welly to keep up is a G
alto recorder - *really* expensive.
Martin Hungerford
Hello Stuart!
we should have taken this to e-mail after all!. Just a quick
comment on the cost of sets. I play a set in - well I don't know what you'd
call it. The maker charges $150 per chanter + $50/key. (in Australian
dollars) So I have several now. The drones can cover. My prefered key is G.
It sounds better than A, and there's room at the top of the chanter for some
extra keys! I've been wondering if I could get a low D chanter made with
keywork extending downwards!
Martin
Stuart R. Hall wrote in message ...
>In article <35106676...@news.wavetech.net>, pmle...@wavetech.net
>(Royce Lerwick) wrote:
>
>>
>> Yeah yeah, you got a set or what? Rushing out to buy one?
>>
>> A is the key for ssp unless you come from the NSP tradition, or are
>> just really damned good and can live with the precious finger spacing
>> and adapt you GHB technique to fingertip or near-fingertip style
>> execution.
>>
>> If you're buying one set follow the rules already outlined. If you're
>> made of money and want to dabble in a host of erudite keys for the
>> sake of proving it can be done, knock yourself out.
>>
>> Royce
>
>You know, it looks like people are getting on Royce's case AGAIN, but
>regardless of bygones . . . listen to him this time. So Hamish Moore
>says C is the nicest key. So what! Are you going to spend more than $1500
>and wait more than a year and a half for one of his C sets?
>
>For the overwhelming majority of SSP players (those who are not writing
>music and recording CDs), A is just THE way to go. People CAN play with
>you in A, but how important is that? You can buy a set in A, and nearly
>EVERY maker will sell you a drone stock with extra, plugged holes so you
>can order the makings of a combo set in the future. D is a LOT more useful
>than C. If you argue that you want to play by yourself, then there is no
>question that A makes the best choice. The chanter is nice and big. If
>playing with other instruments is (or becomes) important, A will work in
>a LOT of settings. (Lots of good Irish flute players, for example, like
>to own whistles in A.) If it turns out that you need to play in D, and you
>have the money, then you can get the D chanter (and perhaps an extra drone)
>and you'll have two sets in one.
>
>Seriously, only if you can afford it should you consider C. It's just not
>as useful as the other pitches, and smallpipes aren't cheap to begin with.
>
Barry Say
In article <350F70...@netvigator.com>, Bill Telfer
<telo...@netvigator.com> writes
>Royce Lerwick wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> There are no advantages of owning a set of scottish smallpipes in the
>> key of C. Why are you discussing it?
>>
>>
>>
>> The real point is, C smallpipes are a $1000 freak instrument that will
>> be all but useless to you no matter how good they sound.
>
>The most recent two or three sets of Scottish smallpipes I have seen
>each came with both a D and a C chanter. The drones tuning up and down a
>tone. (Made by Colin Ross).
>
Dear Bill and all,
Following discussions with Colin this afternoon, I have his
permission to correct a small technical error. The pipes were finished
and fine tuned by Colin but two sets were otherwise mine and the other
was Freddie Ord's. And it is a pig getting the drone reeds to tune to C
and D. The chanter reeds were Colin's coz I was having a bad patch.
Talking of chanter reeds: This thread was discussing chanter reeds
earIier, particularly with regard to plastic reeds. I was having some
private discussions, but I have decided to make my opinion public. I am
sure this will provoke responses.
-----
In deciding whether a reed is satisfactory, it is important to know
1) what sort of pipes are being discussed.
2) what sort of sound the player/commentator expects.
-----
Argument 1:
Reeds for mouth blown pipes have to be thicker than bellows to
accomodate the moisture.
Plastic reeds for mouth-blown pipes are a good idea because the
impervious nature of the material has obvious advantages.
so: for mouth-blown smallpipes which need to work at a lower pressure
plastic reeds seem a good idea.
-----
Argument 2:
Conical bore chanters have an inherently strident tone - this is the
attraction of the pipes.
Plastic reeds can work well in such pipes. Jon Swayne's pipes are a good
example.
-----
Argument 3:
NSP have been the development-line of British smallpipes for nearly 200
years. Within this development-line, which has been concentrated in a
small area among people who were well aware of what each other was
doing, a concensus has been acheived - although there is room for
massive bickering within that concensus.
Modern SSP grew out of this line, adopting the tone of NSP, with the
fingering of GHB, fiddling with the hole sizes to reduce the volume of
certain notes to facilitate some of the cuttings.
-----
Argument 4:
Since that point, SSP have been taken up widely. As far as I know, all
of the Northumbrian makers and the Scottish makers (who are not into
mass production follow the same design. However, the GHB makers and
some American makers have seen this as a great money-spinning venture
and have jumped on the bandwagon without a good understanding of
smallpipe technology. Further, I know that at least one american maker
has felt driven to produce a more raspy SSP because "this is what the
customers want", and mouth-blown SSP have appeared.
I have no problem with people inventing new instruments, but I am very
wary of the term Scottish Smallpipes because I fear there is a variety
of expectations of the instrument.
------
Conclusion:
If anyone can reliably make a good plastic smallpipe reed which
works in NSP, they will make a fortune and I will place a bulk order.
Neither Colin nor I can recall having heard such a reed.
Does this explain things?
--
Barry Say
Bill Telfer
Royce Lerwick wrote:
>
> No, once again, NSP sets are converging on the key of D,
This is an untrue statement based on obvious lack of knowledge.
> A is the key for ssp
We've been here earlier in the thread.
Not if you want to play in the usual type of sessions,(maybe that needs
qualifying, but I'm referring to those which always seem to tend towards
Irish repertoire) because the low pitch of the instrument means you
cant be heard, but more importantly about half the tunes played will be
in G, and you cant play them on your A chanter. So this is why the D SSP
is more useful on both these counts.
> unless you come from the NSP tradition, or are
> just really damned good
So many are nowadays.It's just a pity for those who are not so good.
> and can live with the precious finger spacing
You mean the finger spacing that most of the top players of D smallpipes
can easilly handle -as can so many of us ordinary smallpipers.
> and adapt you GHB technique to fingertip or near-fingertip style
> execution.
Yes, or pretty much on the middle joint of the finger.All it takes is
(same as everything else) practice.
>
Bill Telfer
tom a dean
I take exception to one statement "everyone tunes to the violin" because
in truth, in an orchestra, everyone tunes to the oboe, a conical bore
double reed instrument (sound familiar?) because the oboe doesn't have
much tuning range, and it may change it's own tuning with a different
reed.
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, M. & M. Hamilton wrote:
> Transpose, Transpose, Transpose !
>
> As painfully as it is, you can play with about any instrument with some
> transposing. Sure, some tunes may sound better in a specific key. But if
> you are trying to play pipes with a folk group-everyone has to tune with
Stuart R. Hall
In article <35118F...@ch9000.chem.ncsu.edu>, Sledge Riprock
<how...@ch9000.chem.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> You say C's aren't worth considering unless you can afford it. So what!
> Who are you? From your post, you appear to be about the same as me, a
> smallpiper with an opinion. If you don't agree with Hamish, that's fine,
> not everyone does. I don't always agree with Hamish, and we are pretty
> good friends, but don't just blow off his opinion off with a crass 'So
> what!', unless you think you are more qualified than he to make such a
> judgement.
Howard (hello again, we've chatted over email before), I am NOT quibbling
with Hamish Moore's opinion. He prefers C because he thinks the C chanter
has the best sound. That is NOT what I am arguing about. I argue that,
from the standpoint that it is often nice to play with other people, C is
not the best key for traditional musicians to play in. That's all I'm saying.
He really only uses the C pipes for solo recording, or when he and another
professional musician are playing together.
My point is only that if you're just starting on an instrument, in some
ways it seems more sensible for me to recommend a pitch that might be
easier to use to play with other people. Heck, I like C. Recommending
someone go out and buy C smallpipes for his or her first set seems a little
like recommending someone buy an Eb tin whistle to start on.
> I do like A's, but I wouldn't say there is no question about it being
> the best choice. You're right, it is nice and big, but for some, its too
> big. People with smaller hands, esp. those of the fairer sex, sometimes
> have difficulty reaching the low A hole on an A chanter. Some have
> trouble covering the spread of the entire lower hand. Sure, if you're a
> highland piper its usually no big deal, but not all SSP players are
> highland pipers. For them the D, C,or dare I say it and begin yet
> another endlsess thread, the B-flat SSPs may make more sence, depending
> on how large their hand-span is.
OK, you're right about that. If someone's hands are so small that he or she
actually physically cannot play an A set, I might recommend a D.
I really have no problem with C or Bb. I'm personally very partial to B
natural, and I even had a tin whistle made in B natural. So, I'm hardly one
to talk about not ordering C pipes. If Hamish thinks they sound the best,
then it could also be that he's best at making C pipes . . . so if you're
ordering from him, C might be THE pitch to order. But, I personally don't
really recommend C for the neophyte.
Stuart
Bill Telfer
Barry Say wrote:
>
> In article <350F70...@netvigator.com>, Bill Telfer
> <telo...@netvigator.com> writes
> >Royce Lerwick wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> There are no advantages of owning a set of scottish smallpipes in the
> >> key of C. Why are you discussing it?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The real point is, C smallpipes are a $1000 freak instrument that will
> >> be all but useless to you no matter how good they sound.
> >
> >The most recent two or three sets of Scottish smallpipes I have seen
> >each came with both a D and a C chanter. The drones tuning up and down a
> >tone. (Made by Colin Ross).
> >
>
> Dear Bill and all,
>
> Following discussions with Colin this afternoon, I have his
> permission to correct a small technical error. The pipes were finished
> and fine tuned by Colin but two sets were otherwise mine and the other
> was Freddie Ord's. And it is a pig getting the drone reeds to tune to C
> and D. The chanter reeds were Colin's coz I was having a bad patch.
>
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Having read your comments on reeds that sounds like a fair summation of
the current situation.
Bill Telfer