Pipe bands: pitch of snare drums & chanters.
B. Mitchell
SNARE DRUM PITCH.
I am curious to know how others view the modern drumming associated with
Pipe Bands.
To me the pitch of modern snare drums tends to conflict, override, and drown
out the pipe chanters. Obviously it doesn't do it completely because we can
still hear the pipes, but.. Is it as complementary as one would expect?
Terms like ensemble are used when referring to the togetherness and supposed
sympathetic cohesion of sound twixt pipes and drums, but is such a thing a
myth with the modern snare drum?
I am impressed with the dexterity of the snare drummers but not their modern
sound. Sadly I almost prefer the drumming when the snare drummers don't turn
up, or perhaps when we have a full bass drum section and only one snare
drummer, maybe two at the most. I find I am increasingly more in favour of
pitch of the older rope tensioned side drum, a la "Royal Marines" Bands.
However it is pointless teaching old methods to modern snare/side drummers
because, if they are to be of use and accepted in any band they have to know
the modern snare drumming techniques.
Perhaps I shouldn't mention drummers on a GHBP discussion group, but like it
or not they are very important integral part of a pipe band.
What about a bodran drum section??? Love some Irish input here! Actual I
notice bands in the parades in Nn.Ireland seem to use drums other than
snaredrums. Is this just non-pipe bands or does it include pipe bands?. Curious.
CHANTER PITCH.
The subject of pitch affects the pipes as well of course. With the climb
from around 460-465Hz (or below) to over 470Hz I have had other musicians
(that play other instruments) comment to me about the high pitch of pipes.
This apparently being one of their reasons for not liking the pipes. I once
spoke to a violin maker and he commented about the general rising pitch of
all instruments in his field, so we are not facing something unique to
bagpipes. It seems to be, and has been for some time, a phenomenon
associated with much western music.
On a practical basis, for solo playing (not competitive, but public anyway)
I often find that if I use my old 1960's Hardies chanter, my pipes will stay
tuned for much longer before requiring adjustment. The lower pitched sound
appears to carry better, and the tone is pleasant. I've even had wedding
clients who have asked for the lower pitched chanter. At home we have a
choice of Niall (1995), Piob Mhor, McLeod, Hardies 1960's and 1997 pitch
chanters and a modern Hardies low-pitched chanter, and have played Dunbar
(1996) and Warmac (various models), Lawrie and old Henderson chanters. My
band uses McLeod chanters, though if upgrading would change from these -
possibly to Warmac because perhaps 80% of NZ bands use Warmac and the judges
would be used to the sound. It sort of irks me a little that bands just go
out a buy Warmac because that's what is used most. They are good, but it
lends to a terrible sameness between bands at competitions. Maybe it makes
easy judging, but it makes the overall day a little boring. It is really
nice when a band has their "own" sound, and this is part of what separates
bands in the higher grades.
Of course if you are playing in massed bands it really helps to have all
bands sitting on the same pitch.
I once read somewhere that lower pitched bagpipes "held" their tuning for
much longer and it seems to me this could well be true. Can anyone comment
about this?
It might also be interesting to know the reasons for the higher pitch of
modern pipes. Here's a chance for chanter/pipe manufacturers to give some input.
What do judges prefer when judging piobaireachd? Older Henderson pipes still
complete with their low pitched Henderson chanters, or pipes pitched way up
to 475Hz with modern Niall chanters? Do they prefer some tunes played with
low-pitched chanters and others with the higher pitches? How does this
affect Marches, Strathspeys and Reels, Jigs and hornpipes, if at all? Let's
assume the judge was judging "blind" the same piper, playing the same tunes
on differently pitched pipes. I know the result is affected by the personal
preferences of the judge and perhaps a younger judge may prefer higher
pitches because that is what they grew up with. However, would a competitor
be foolish to compete with a lower pitched chanter (even a modern one)
versus a high pitch chanter, given they could put the same
feeling/expression into their playing?
I make no appology for bringing up something that may have been debated ad
nauseum before - I have not seen any of it. I played in bands actively for
several years in my teens and early twenties, then had a long break from the
"band scene". I played quite happily with my pipes at 1960's pitch until I
got back into the band scene again about 25 years later, and had to learn to
like the new higher pitch. If it wasn't for band piping or solo competitive
piping I'd probably still be happy playing at 1960's pitch. I'm even
experimenting with a modern Hardies low-pitched chanter out of curiosity.
Does anyone out there feel able to comment on pitch?
I don't expect straight answers because it is not a black and white subject.
Just some informative responses and discussion would be fine.
??????
Bryan.
B. Mitchell
At 11:46 AM 10/03/97 +1100, <j...@ecr.mu.oz.au> wrote:
>I am a student at Melbourne University, and know several
>music students who have studied the history of music. They
>all agree the that the pitch of music has been rising for
>at least several hundred years.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>hic scribit Jonathan Merritt, rex quondam rexque futurus.
>
>Jonathan Merritt n. 18 yr. old Engineer, piper, philosopher,
> Guinness drinker, trekkie, and ardent
> Mallorist.
>
Thanks for the response Jonathon,
Why the rise in pitch? Do you have any idea? Is it because there has been
progressively more "low noise" pollution, and the higher pitches are
necessary to compensate? Why does the human ear seem to want higher pitches?
What other reasons can you suggest? Perhaps some of your mates could
elaborate for us?
I have heard that old "Matheson" pipes had quite softer/mellow/quieter
drones compared to modern drones. I recall reading/hearing that the
quietness of Matheson pipes was a reason for them not being particularly
popular in pipe bands. Mellowness is something I have noticed in some older
sets of drones (eg. Henderson). Could the addition of an extra drone to the
GHB have created too much "low noise" background, necessitating a higher
pitched chanter to retain dominance. As drones got stronger did the chanter
correspondingly increase in pitch to compensate? As snare drums have got
louder and higher, have they also forced the chanter up? Is the reason our
pipes are at the modern pitch directly because of the snare drum? Would this
apply to all/any other instruments - there are drums in orchestras, rock
bands and the like. Have instruments in general been going higher to keep
above the drowning tones of drums?
This train of thought might be a complete dead end, but if you don't explore
an alleyway you'll never know whether is is a dead end or opens up in in
some fascinating hidden valley.
No I don't hate drums or drummers. My wife played the tenor drum with my
encouragement. I'm just curious why this upward trend in pitch.
Is it reversible? Why? Why not? You tell me.
Bryan.
Chris Hamilton
Bryan Mitchell wrote
> ... The subject of pitch affects the pipes as well of course. With the
climb
> from around 460-465Hz (or below) to over 470Hz I have had other musicians
> (that play other instruments) comment to me about the high pitch of
pipes...
I was leafing through some old Piping Times yesterday, and came across a
letter from one Torquil MacLeod, written in late 1970 or 1971, commenting
on the recent World Pipe Band Championship. Mr. MacLeod writes, to
paraphrase, as a piper with over 70 years of experience playing and making
bagpipes. His major criticism of the contest was that he wishes bands
would stop playing "THOSE PICCOLO-TYPE CHANTERS AS PLAYED BY THE MUIRHEAD'S
BAND!" I thought that was an interesting comment as many pipers are
looking back with fondness now on those same late 1960s / early 1970s
Hardie chanter as a "sane" pitch!
All things are relative, I guess. :-)
Realistically, though, I would like to see some stabilization or
retrenchment of the pitch just a bit. Not A-440 or anything, just creep
back from that 480 mark. How to do that? I guess it's up to people to make
known to the chanter vendors what they prefer.
Chris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Hamilton -- chr...@cmprime.att.com
DBA, AT&T WorldNet Service - Lincroft, NJ
http://www.serve.com/cowpb/chamilton.html
City of Washington Pipe Band
Brandon E Paluzzi
Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.makers.bagpipe: 10-Mar-97 Re: Pipe
bands: pitch of sn.. "B. Mitchell"@voyager.co (2197)
> Is the reason our
> pipes are at the modern pitch directly because of the snare drum? Would this
> apply to all/any other instruments - there are drums in orchestras, rock
> bands and the like. Have instruments in general been going higher to keep
> above the drowning tones of drums?
Since I'm a drummer who reads this board to get a better idea of the
instrument I accompany, I figured I would post a response to this
question :)
I've always heard that the invention of the free floating snare drum and
kevlar drumheads came about when snare drummers were seeking higher
pitches to match the piper's chanters...
However, once the free floating drums were developed, it seems that
every year the drums are being tightened more (that comment is based on
watching drum and bugle corps shows, but I imagine it relates to pipe
snares also)...
I am a first year member of a snare line, and I'll be the first to
comment that our snare drums are tuned *very* tight, but the pipers have
never really made any comments about the balance between pipes + drums,
or the need to have higher pitched pipes
(FYI- we have 5 snares, 1 bass, and 12-15 pipers)
As far as drums in other settings- I would say that in rock, the
tendency has been for lower pitched drums (ugh), so I'm not sure if it
applies there, but in all other cases I would agree...
In the orchestra, concert snares are being cranked up to "cut" through
the band (especially piccolo snares), on the marching field, snares,
tenors, and bass drums are all being cranked *extremely high* (my drum
corps 3rd bass drum [24"] was tuned higher than the toms on my drumset
[8"-16"]), and even in latin percussion, congas, bongos, and timbales
are being tuned higher...
So while it is true that drums are being tuned tighter today, I'm not
sure if that is the reason why other instruments are being forced into
the upper ranges as well...
I think it may have something to do with "crowd appeal":
For example, a trumpet player can often play rhythmically challenging
licks in a solo, and be greeted by a nonresponsive crowd...but , the
first time a horn player runs up into the "screech" range, the crowd
goes nuts....Possibly the instrument manufacturers are responsive to
this feeling that "higher is better"
(?)
Just my $.02
Brandon Paluzzi
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Brandon Paluzzi Carnegie Mellon University
Dept. of Mathematical Sciences Class of 2000
SMC 1324 bp...@andrew.cmu.edu
PO Box 2888 by...@cmu.edu
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PYPPR
A comment on Byran's question about the bodhran in pipe bands. My band,
the Colorado Irish PB, uses the bodhran in parades and in performances.
Various games organizers have said they would ask for a local ruling to
permit the bodhran in competition, but we feel it would be unfair to the
judges to have them try to equate our augmented drum section with everyone
else. Someone would have to suffer one way or the other; and, after all,
there's areason why they are called highland games.
Henry Whyte
In article <1997030909...@host02.net.voyager.co.nz>, "B.
Mitchell" <ki...@voyager.co.nz> writes
>SNARE DRUM PITCH.
>
>I am curious to know how others view the modern drumming associated with
>Pipe Bands.
of a BBC Scottish Home Service broadcast in the latter half of 1963 that
I and my three room-mates listened to, lamenting the demise of the rope-
tensioned drum. This was just before Phillips gifted the audiocassette
to the world (well, to Scotland anyway), so I was not able to record it.
The speaker was harking back to "the old days" when you could hear an
approaching pipe band by the gruff-toned rum-tiddly-tum of the drums,
long before any sound of the pipes was discernible, and complaining that
the root cause of the change was the tendency of pipe bands to go in for
competition marches, harder to play and demanding a slower tempo,
leaving longer gaps to be filled in by frenetic drumming (or
"stitching") and thus calling the modern style of tin drum into
existence. I remember in particular his description of the competition
march as a degeneration from the genuine, traditional article into a
"foxtrot". Particularly illustrative was my simultaneous view of the
struggles of one of said room-mates, "Chiefy" MacLaren of the Gordon
Highlanders, to tension up his rope drum, one of those bequeathed to our
unit from one of the regimental P&Ds: we had no other kind. (If you
think this must have been easy, remember that the ropes were thick with
blanco, and the drummer in full ceremonial rig.) Chiefy was not a
picture of sentimental longing. I wonder if anyone else on the list
heard that broadcast? Probably at 6.45 or so on a Wednesday evening.
Scottish steam radio had only recently celebrated its 40th birthday, and
JFK was thinking about visiting Dallas.
--
Henry Whyte, Lochee hwh...@translation-plus.co.uk
arcad...@aol.com
In article <jbgyPDAZ...@translation-plus.demon.co.uk>, Henry Whyte <hwh...@translation-plus.co.uk> writes:
>How eerie to encounter this message in 1997, with the memory still green
>of a BBC Scottish Home Service broadcast in the latter half of 1963 that
>I and my three room-mates listened to, lamenting the demise of the rope-
>tensioned drum.
I think that they must repeat that broadcast every 5 or 10 years, Henry, because I heard it in the early 70's and again a few years later. Any BBC'ers know how often these programs are repeated?
Regards, Max
Max Rankin
A Scotsman living in Surrey, England