Henderson's or Hardies
Todd
Check out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=206511157
Hmmmnnn -- 1950s. Are they Hendy's or Hardies
Iain Sherwood
from silver hallmarks, if any; however, the price on the CoP tutor is
contemporary with 1957-1960. The pipes shown are most probably Peter
Henderson, since they are accompanied by three letters from the firm.
Henderson was bought out by Hardie in the mid-sixties. They continued to
operate until 1970, when production of pipes marked 'P. Henderson' ceased.
It is interesting to note that the 'bakelite' mounts are the old casein
imitation ivory, a highly toxic material, which probably resulted in the
early death of at least three turners at Henderson's and probably many more
at other makers.
IS
"Todd" <rtmu...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:8226pa$oll$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
Todd
Egads! I hope only bakelite DUST is dangerous!! What is the toxicity of
the mounts as they are?
Todd
Bagpiip
When they went up for sale on ebay, of course! LOL
Bill
Mar a bha, mar a tha,
mar a bhitheas gu brath,
ri tra'ghadh's ri lionadh.
Chris Hamilton
wrote:
>Thanks for the info Iain!
>
>Egads! I hope only bakelite DUST is dangerous!! What is the toxicity of
>the mounts as they are?
Maybe bakelite mounts should come with a sticker (like on those
packets of dessicant that are in electronics shipments) ...
"Do not eat."
Chris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Hamilton -- Tone...@erols.com
City of Washington Pipe Band
http://toneczar.freeservers.com/
madman
>
> 1950's are P. Henderson. The only real way to determine the date would be
> from silver hallmarks, if any; however, the price on the CoP tutor is
> contemporary with 1957-1960. The pipes shown are most probably Peter
> Henderson, since they are accompanied by three letters from the firm
Out here on the East coast those things are a dime a dozen,and worth
just slightly more.
Peter Henderson was long dead at that point so who cares what they are
stamped.
The specs on those "Hardie-Hendersons" are neither Henderson specs nor
Hardie specs,
so go figure.
Either way,*most* pipes form the post WW 2 era are complete shite,both
in the
quality of the wood used and the quality of materials and the quality of
workmanship.
>
> Henderson was bought out by Hardie in the mid-sixties. They continued to
> operate until 1970, when production of pipes marked 'P. Henderson' ceased.
> imitation ivory, a highly toxic material, which probably resulted in the
> early death of at least three turners at Henderson's and probably many more
> at other makers.
materials?
The mounts on *that* set in the picture are made of *catalin*,NOT
casein.
Catalin turns yellow after being turned and getting some oxygen,and then
eventually
turns to that deep burnt orange color,like in the photo.
CATALIN is still available thru GPS agencies in England,and I have some
in the shop that I use for repairs on older(and some newer,ala D.Naill &
Co.,pipes).
Catalin is also known as "Bakelite",which is chemically related to
phenolic,or
"phenol-resins",which are formed as a precipitate using urea
formaldehyde.
In the past,catalin was used for everything from telephones,to jewelry
to
radio cases.
Nowadays,catalin is still manufactured and is used i.e, for making the
bodies on
the Steinberger electric guitar.
CASEIN, is an isolated protein(amine-like molecule)of cow's milk.
Casein was mostly used on Robertsons during WW2..it comes in 2 colors
..black and
ivory...smells like ivory when turned...and is relatively non-toxic.
It is still available,and I use it for repairs.
Just thought I'd clear up the confusion.
Dave
Matt Buckley
madman <athert...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
> The pipes in that picture are most likely Hardie-Hendersons.
> Out here on the East coast those things are a dime a dozen,and worth
> just slightly more.
> Either way,*most* pipes form the post WW 2 era are complete > shite
Maybe so, but when in September I sold my Hardies I held onto the @1965
chanter. Countless pipers have commented on the lovely sound of the
chanter, and I've been offered quite a bit to part with it. No way.
Matt
Ron Bowen
best information that they are Henderson drones. The material (projecting
mounts) appears to be consistent with those seen on pipes from that era
(1950's).
My information on imitation ivory... (taken from an undated handbook
published by James Robertson, Bagpipe and Reed Manufacturer - my only clue
to the date is that it advertises a new "set of bagpipes below pre-war
prices" which then begs the question "which war?" - however from the
vernacular used and other subtle clues, my guess is WWI.)
Anyway, it refers to a material called Celluloid..."Originally Celluloid was
used. Supplies were none too good and the danger from fire in working, and
in the finished article getting near the fire or a naked flame caused users
to look round for something safer. This firm now uses a very fine
composition which is non-inflamable. It is a milk residue, very hard and
tough, has a fine creamy colour, and polishes beautifully."
I believe that the Celluloid that he speaks of appears on many early 1900's
(post WWI) drones, especially those manufactured by Lawrie. It is highly
toxic and flammable. It has an appearance somewhere between white Vaseline
and very pale yellow.
The "composition" that Robertson speaks of...again from the book...
"Imitation Ivory - This is a manufactured product, and, as the illustration
shows, has no structure which resembles either vegetable or animal
tissue.... It is prepared from casein, a protein of milk, to which is added
various earthy materials and then submitted to a drying process under great
pressure. ...very hard and tough, has a fine creamy colour, and polishes
beautifully"
I believe that this may be the material called "Bakelite". Jack Dunbar
tells me that this first appeared sometime after WWI. I've only seen
Henderson and Robertson pipes using this stuff, however it may appear on
other pipes of that era. It is pleasant to work with, turning nicely
without any odor. Over the years it turns gray and becomes somewhat
brittle.
Other "imitation" materials followed, which are generally referred to as
"yellow plastic" however they probably have a range of names more reflective
of their actual properties. They are white during production, however the
surface turns color over the years as a result of either oxidation or
ultra-violet light. The earlier products turned a burnt-orange color, where
more recent products turn light yellow. Some (if not all) materials used
today retain their original color.
My best information.... Peter Henderson died in 1902 at the age of 51,
unmarried. Brother Donald became involved in the business, however John
MacDougall Gillies was manager of the shop from about 1905 until 1925.
Archie Mcphedran was manager until 1952 (Jack Dunbar was a turner in the
shop during these years) and was succeeded by Albert Sheath until 1956,
followed by Bob McCreath until 1960, and finally by Greig Sharp until 1971,
when they ceased making bagpipes altogether. Lawrie is said to have
supplied Henderson with bagpipes until 1973, when the Henderson family sold
the business to R.G. Hardie and Co.
The style and dimensions of the Henderson bagpipe changed throughout the
years (no small wonder when you consider the changes in managers over the
years). Generally speaking, they managed to retain that for which they were
know and prized... robust rich sound, easy to reed, and very steady. It is
possible to find "Henderson" drones that do not have these qualities.
To be sure, some of the best Henderson drones were made in the middle and
late 1960's, during Greig Sharp's tenure as manager. They are distinctive
in
style, sound, and performance. Bob MacCrimmon (ex-Clan MacFarlane now NRP)
has a superb silver and ivory set made from this era. My brother, Will,
also owns a full ivory set, equally "superior".
It is highly doubtful that Hardie had any influence over, or claim to,
Henderson drones prior to 1971. Hope this helps.
Ringo
Todd <rtmu...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:8226pa$oll$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> At what point did Henderson become Hardie?
>
Iain Sherwood
they're Hendersons, as I said before, along with Ringo.
The mounts are consistant with casein - based 'plastic' used until the
sixties, rather than the resin found on later pipes. 'White Bakelite' was
used by Robertson in the twenties, is toxic and cracks. Originally a soft
composition, with age it becomes both brittle and chalky, rubbing off and
flaking.
IS
"Ron Bowen" <Ron_...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:ATd14.101934$up3.1...@news21.bellglobal.com...
madman
>
>
> The "composition" that Robertson speaks of...again from the book...
> "Imitation Ivory - This is a manufactured product, and, as the illustration
> shows, has no structure which resembles either vegetable or animal
> tissue.... It is prepared from casein, a protein of milk, to which is added
> various earthy materials and then submitted to a drying process under great
> pressure. ...very hard and tough, has a fine creamy colour, and polishes
> beautifully"
>
> I believe that this may be the material called "Bakelite". Jack Dunbar
> tells me that this first appeared sometime after WWI. I've only seen
> Henderson and Robertson pipes using this stuff, however it may appear on
> other pipes of that era. It is pleasant to work with, turning nicely
> without any odor. Over the years it turns gray and becomes somewhat
> brittle.
Bakelite IS Catalin.
Both are chemically related to phenol resin.
It IS NOT pleasant to work with.
It will *literally* make your eyes tear and hurts the throat when you
breathe in the dust/vapors.
OTOH...CASEIN *is* pleasant to work with.
You've got it backwards.
When you come down to the shop in January,I'll show you the two
different materials,
and I'll let you get a good inhalation of the catalin..that oughtta take
care of
any doubts you may have.
>
> Other "imitation" materials followed, which are generally referred to as
> "yellow plastic" however they probably have a range of names more reflective
> of their actual properties. They are white during production, however the
> surface turns color over the years as a result of either oxidation or
> ultra-violet light. The earlier products turned a burnt-orange color, where
> more recent products turn light yellow.
Now you're talking about Catalin...which STILL turns that ugly burnt
orange color.
...It just takes 30 years to do so naturally.
To circumvent the time frame.....I drop a freshly turned mount in a
closed container w/ some bleach....and voila...instant
oxidation/age...(for repairs only).
UV light will break down/decompose catalin but will not hasten its
coloring to that orangish hue.
As a point of interest ...phenolics react to oxygen the same way catalin
does.
(they are chemically similar)
A few months back,I shipped out an original phenolic chanter prototype
and it got
lost in the mail and a month later was returned.
Originally the chanter was a light orange color...when it came back it
was brownish/
burgundy..and it never saw the light of day in a box......
madman
> The mounts are consistant with casein - based 'plastic' used until the
> sixties, rather than the resin found on later pipes. 'White Bakelite' was
> used by Robertson in the twenties, is toxic and cracks. Originally a soft
> composition, with age it becomes both brittle and chalky, rubbing off and
> flaking.
Wrong,Wrong,Wrong,...as usual.
The mounts are catalin.
I do this crap for a living and I've turned more pounds of catalin
than you've had meals.
>
Ron Bowen
Casein... the white chalky stuff that is good to work with that turns gray
and brittle over the years. Pre WWII
Celluloid... toxic pale yellow stuff. Mostly used by Lawrie. Does not turn
dark. Pre WWII
Bakelite or Catalin... toxic "family" of plastics used from middle 1940's
on. Turns bright yellow to dark orange.
How're we looking now?
madman <athert...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:384583...@hotmail.com...
Ron Bowen
be taken as gospel. His spelling and grammar sucks on occasion too. This
may detract from, however does not diminish, his substantial technical
knowledge on other matters.
Keeping my tongue firmly planted in my cheek
Ringo
Matt Buckley <bdrp...@together.net> wrote in message
news:01bf3c1a$1c057840$eb025bd1@default...
Doug Campbell
Ron Bowen wrote:
> In my opinion, some of Dave's assertions are not defendable and should not
> be taken as gospel. His spelling and grammar sucks on occasion too. This
You meant, of course, that his spelling and grammar <suck> on occasion.
Doug C.
madman
>
> O.K. so....???
>
> Casein... the white chalky stuff that is good to work with that turns gray
> and brittle over the years. Pre WWII
> Celluloid... toxic pale yellow stuff. Mostly used by Lawrie. Does not turn
> dark. Pre WWII
> Bakelite or Catalin... toxic "family" of plastics used from middle 1940's
> on. Turns bright yellow to dark orange.
>
> How're we looking now?
>
Bingo...Ringo.....
:?)
madman
>
> In my opinion, some of Dave's assertions are not defendable and should not
> be taken as gospel.
My father is a preacher,I'm a heathen who hates crappily made pipes.
>His spelling and grammar sucks on occasion too. This
> knowledge on other matters.
My grammar,particularly usage and punctuation are generally atrocious.
The fact that I type about 3 words per minute doesn't help the
situation.
This post alone took about 15 minutes!!..LOL
:?)
:P
Ron Bowen
Have a good one.
Ringo
Doug Campbell <do...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:38458A...@maine.rr.com...
>
>
> Ron Bowen wrote:
>
> > In my opinion, some of Dave's assertions are not defendable and should
not
This
>
Todd
Now we're rollin...
How much for the set in the add (what's a fair price)?
Todd
BTW...
madman <athert...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Bingo...Ringo.....
LMAO!!
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>In my opinion, some of Dave's assertions are not defendable and should not
>be taken as gospel. His spelling and grammar sucks on occasion too. This
>may detract from, however does not diminish, his substantial technical
>knowledge on other matters.
>
>Keeping my tongue firmly planted in my cheek
>Ringo
If you're going to tell somebody they're full of shite, at least do us
the courtesy of pointing out exactly what he's full of shite about.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>I meant his "spelling and grammar" sucks. ;?) Tongue still firmly planted.
All this reference to "suck," "sucks," what cheek is our tongue firmly
planted in? How do you get it back there that far?
Royce
Ron Bowen
God that felt good! Thanks for the invite. I've been waiting these many
months for you to give me an opening. You are a crafty one, ever waiting
for an opportunity to bait me into bare-knuckle bashing. I am amazed at
your "staying power" and equally amazed that you never seem to learn.
Dave and I are having a good time with this thread. I guess you missed
that. And I'm having a bit of a good time with you right now. Just
pointing it out...
Tell you what. Would you like to defend Dave's statement that "most pipes
from post WW2 are complete shite" or the assertion that the pipes in
question are "most likely Hardie-Henderson's"?
And by the way.... I never said that anyone (up until now) was full of
shite.
Checkmate!
Ringo
Royce Lerwick <pmle...@wavetech.net> wrote in message
news:3845b6ff...@news.mn.mediaone.net...
madman
> Would you like to defend Dave's statement that "most pipes
> from post WW2 are complete shite"
On that note....
Complete shite??Not quite.
However,it is true that a lot of what made pre WW2 pipes so charming,
and exquisite was lost after WW2 and has a direct relevance to some of
the crap out there today.
Start comparing pre WW2 drones to the post WW2 drones.
There was a big push towards artificial materials.
There was a big push towards mass-production.
A lot of what makes a drone unique and charming(ie..mount
shapes,profiles,aesthetics)
was beginning to take a back seat.
Compare the *workmanship* of a turn-of-the -century Henderson to a
1950's Henderson.
Its night and day.
As a point of interest..
I recently completely refurbished a set of 1950 Lawries that a guy had
bought ,
under the assumption that the pipes were mounted in *real ivory*.
(it was actually celluloid).
The bass bottom was indeed a Lawrie but a Lawrie from the turn of the
century,
and this was the only piece that had real ivory mounts.
The turning on that piece was gorgeous.
The mounts were gorgeous.
The *bore was the best bore of all the pieces in the set*
The combing and beading was flawless.
I put the bass-bottom on the lathe to do some work on it and it ran
*perfectly*
true and concentric...now thats good wood...and it pre-dated the rest of
the set by 50 years.
Anyone who thinks that post-war pipes can hang with pre-war(1 or
2)pipes,
(at least form a workmanship standpoint)
is fooling themselves.
(and this situation happens all the time,and is generally speaking,the
rule,not the exception)
jvh
> I meant his "spelling and grammar" sucks. ;?) Tongue still firmly
planted.
> Ringo
> Doug Campbell <do...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:38458A...@maine.rr.com...
> >
> > You meant, of course, that his spelling and grammar <suck> on occasion.
> >
It is the one absolute law of usenet that grammer flames must themselves
contain at least one grammatical error.
Cheers,
Michael
Bob Cameron
McLeod-? Are they made of a dangerous substance? Should I never think of
polishing/sanding them again?
Stuart Hall
tone...@erols.com wrote:
>Maybe bakelite mounts should come with a sticker (like on those
>packets of dessicant that are in electronics shipments) ...
>
>"Do not eat."
>
>Chris
You know, the EPA (I think it is) requires that "toxic substances" have
materials safety data sheets provided with them (MSDS). You know, a sheet
that talks about what to do when it's spilled, spilled on someone,
ingested, splashed in eyes, stirred into coffee, etc.
Sand has an MSDS. So does salt.
SAND and SALT. Instructions, should they be spilled. Or, God forbid,
should someone get any (sand or salt) on himself (or herself).
Nkay, so, we take things a LITTLE too far.
I still can't over liter bottles of water (WATER) labelled, "For Sale Only
By or on Order of a Physician."
Stuart
Blair
jvh wrote in message <826ddu$avb$1...@news.laserlink.net>...
>It is the one absolute law of usenet that grammer flames must themselves
>contain at least one grammatical error.
Then I am guessing that you are aware that "grammatical error" in the sense
you have used it is an oxymoron, and that you've done this to make your
point. As I am doing.
....Blair
Brian Counihan
athert...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Anyone who thinks that post-war pipes can hang with pre-war(1 or
> 2)pipes,
> (at least form a workmanship standpoint)
> is fooling themselves.
> (and this situation happens all the time,and is generally speaking,the
> rule,not the exception)
>
So Dave, are you insinuating that your own pipes fall into this
category to????
--
Brian C.
http://www.stcolumcille.com/
"If you ever reach total enlightenment while drinking beer, I bet it
makes beer shoot out your nose." - Deep Thought, Jack Handy
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ron Bowen
I'd break it down to three categories:
Pre WW2 pipes
Post WW2 pipes
Modern era pipes (1970's to date)
In many shops of old, tooling was relatively crude. It is not uncommon to
inspect the bore of an older pipe and find a "wow" half way through, due to
boring methods and tools of the era. "Turners" were also allowed the
freedom to produce work that reflected their personal preferences and
signature touches. Also, as many turners worked for different bagpipe
makers during their lifetimes, they carried their traits and experiences
with them, influencing each shop along the way. All said, this was a time
when craftsmanship was highly regarded, and although the manufacturing
processes were relatively crude, each bagpipe reflected the craftsman's
skills and respect for the instrument and the trade.
During the post war era, many of the major bagpipe making companies were
operating under second, third, or subsequent generation management. These
companies underwent subtle and dramatic changes reflective of current
management and their efforts to meet the demand for product and profit.
Manufacturing processes and resources were subject to tremendous strain and
pressure. Corners were cut. Standards were lowered. Although many
excellent bagpipes continued to be manufactured during this era, a large
number of "common" bagpipes was also produced.
Bold assertion... The tooling and quality control employed by the best
makers today far surpasses that of any previous era in terms of consistency,
true bore, and finished surfaces. What may be lacking, (trees harvested
at maturity, naturally dried for many years prior to turning, ivory, old
world craftsmanship) is more than made up for by superior manufacturing
processes and the learning of 200 years!
I restore/refurbish perhaps a dozen or more sets of pipes each year. Over
the last 30 years I've overhauled scores of pipes. This doesn't qualify me
as an expert, however I generally know enough to get by. I am both
astounded and confounded by some of what I see. There's a saying that goes
"You have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince (or princess)" and this
goes well when speaking of older pipes. You just don't know what you'll
find when you open someone's pipe box.
Unless you really know what you're looking for in an older set of pipes,
save yourself the headache and buy something new from a reputable
manufacturer who stands behind their products. You will be much further
ahead in the long run.
Dave, great comments and a great thread. Even had a bit of spice! This is
what the NG is supposed to be!
Good turning
Ringo
madman <athert...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:38469B...@hotmail.com...
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>Tell you what. Would you like to defend Dave's statement that "most pipes
>from post WW2 are complete shite" or the assertion that the pipes in
>question are "most likely Hardie-Henderson's"?
There you are, that wasn't so hard. So now we have the two statements
you care to debate. I never said I had any interest one way or the
other, but when you go to such lengths to keep the veiled allustion
right up front as you do and did, I just wondered what specifically it
was you wanted to contest Dave on. Now we can all hear his specific
reply.
>And by the way.... I never said that anyone (up until now) was full of
>shite.
Substitute the word "communicate" with "say' and I think we can strip
you of that little semantic hiding place.
>Checkmate!
If you insist. Make it as large a check as you can afford...mate.
Royce
RE:
>
>Royce Lerwick <pmle...@wavetech.net> wrote in message
>news:3845b6ff...@news.mn.mediaone.net...
>> On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:39:27 GMT, "Ron Bowen" <Ron_...@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In my opinion, some of Dave's assertions are not defendable and should
>not
>> >be taken as gospel.
A proper response would be: In my opinion, Dave's assertion that
(topic A) and (topic B) are not defendable...etc.
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>
>I recently completely refurbished a set of 1950 Lawries that a guy had
>bought ,
>under the assumption that the pipes were mounted in *real ivory*.
>(it was actually celluloid).
I don't know how long the original nitrocellulose was on the market,
other than they make billiar balls out of it for a while, and all the
early film stock was nitrocellulose, but were any pipe mountings ever
turned from this stuff? That would have been the first available
substitute for ivory.
Royce
aberdeen
No, I think he's showing that one absolute law of usenet is that any
spelling flames must contain at least one mispelling!
All the best,
Jim
--
Jim Hudgins
Aberdeen Bagpipe Supply
<http://www.AberdeenBagpipe.com>
Ron Bowen
thing when you see it. Probably somehow reflective of the real Royce
Lerwick. No bother. As for sending any check, I only pay for what I get.
Don't be watching the mail! Take care.
Ringo
Royce Lerwick <pmle...@wavetech.net> wrote in message
news:38474ca7...@news.mn.mediaone.net...
madman
>
> Excellent points, Dave. Now let's push the envelope a bit further...
>
>
> inspect the bore of an older pipe and find a "wow" half way through, due to
While gun-drills did exist,and were used extensively for the war
effort,their use in the pipe-making trade was unheard of.
As far as the tools used for turning the OD,the only thing that has
changed
is the alloys of tool steel used to make hand-held turning tools.
For instance,"high-speed-steel" was in use in the high tech machinery of
the day,but not affordable to an instrument maker.
Nowadys we have stellite,20% cobalt,high grade carbides and brazed
diamond tooling,
that is affordable for use as hand tools.
However...this is only going to make your tools remain sharper for
longer,it won't make a lousy turner any better,and w/o a knowledge of
the finer points of
"what makes a Glen a Glen",it is utterly useless.
There is an old saying.."a craftsman never blames his tools".
Certainly tooling was more crude,certainly we have better tooling
available today,
but it is used to make things faster,not better.
Its the turner armed with knowledge and pride who will kick the ass,in
terms of workmanship,of a someone who has better tooling and no real
skill.
Anyone can copy bore dimensions of any given pipe,it isn't rocket
science,but
its the "whole-effect" that makes a "Glen a Glen" or a Henderson a
Henderson,
and for the most part by and large,those qualities are gone and no one
gives a damn.
Who cares if a pipe has a clean bore when everything *on* the pipe falls
off in two weeks.
> During the post war era, many of the major bagpipe making companies were
> operating under second, third, or subsequent generation management. These
> companies underwent subtle and dramatic changes reflective of current
> management and their efforts to meet the demand for product and profit.
> Manufacturing processes and resources were subject to tremendous strain and
> pressure. Corners were cut. Standards were lowered.
Standards were lowered and then kept on going down,and what we've been
left with for the most part is a mass-produced facsimile of the real
thing.
So what really happened was that a lousy set of skills was passed down
from maker to another maker to an apprentice,and eventually the
standards of the past were forgotten.
>
> Bold assertion... The tooling and quality control employed by the best
> makers today far surpasses that of any previous era in terms of consistency,
> true bore, and finished surfaces. What may be lacking, (trees harvested
> at maturity, naturally dried for many years prior to turning, ivory, old
> world craftsmanship) is more than made up for by superior manufacturing
> processes and the learning of 200 years!
Somewhere in that "200 years of learning",the modern makers forgot a few
things,most notably....
How to thread a ring cap
How to thread a ferrule
How to thread a bush
How to thread a sole
How to thread a mount
They sure remembered how to use the lacquer though!
When the quality of the lacquer *on top* of the wood surpasses the
quality of what is underneath it,there is a huge problem.
How is it that with all the modern machinery things have gotten
worse...not better.
"Superior manufacuring processes",can not,will not,and will never
ever,ever,
surpass "Old World Craftsmanship".
"old World Craftsmanship" is *the* standard.
Are you telling me that "gluing on the accoutrements" falls under the
heading of
"superior manufacturing processes"?
Glue is not superior..threads are superior.
Glue-More bagpipes are crap.
madman
> > 2)pipes,
> > (at least form a workmanship standpoint)
> > is fooling themselves.
> > (and this situation happens all the time,and is generally speaking,the
> > rule,not the exception)
> >
>
> category to????
>
Hell YES!!
My pipes suck!
I thread on ALL accoutrements,I only make 80-100 sets a year,I guarantee
without exception for TWO years,I use an oiled finish so that you can
actually SEE what kind of wood you're getting!!!
They're awful!
Last I heard Mr. Alasdair Gillies was taking a set of those dreadful
KRONS
around with him to workshops and singing their praise!
Surely,the world is ending!
What unmitigated nerve!
Our stuff sucks!
Please don't buy KRONS!!!!
It really,really sucks!!!!!
(hyperbole,of course)
Iain Sherwood
Bagpiip
As I will yours regarding "group showers".
Bill
Mar a bha, mar a tha,
mar a bhitheas gu brath,
ri tra'ghadh's ri lionadh.
JOHN MITCHELL
> Please don't buy KRONS!!!!
I see Dave's concience has finally gotten to him!
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Matthew Wood
Did he miss the point? The man asked how your pipes compare with prewar
pipes.
Answer the damn question. We want to know if the rule also applies to Kron
pipes! So I will ask...Dave do your pipes stand with the workmanship of
prewar pipes? (remember you said it was the rule not the exception).
Matt
madman <athert...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
> Our stuff sucks!
> Please don't buy KRONS!!!!
>
>
>
>
Fernetta
>
> > Would you like to defend Dave's statement that "most pipes
> > from post WW2 are complete shite"
>
> Complete shite??Not quite.
> However,it is true that a lot of what made pre WW2 pipes so charming,
> and exquisite was lost after WW2 and has a direct relevance to some of
> the crap out there today.
> Start comparing pre WW2 drones to the post WW2 drones.
> There was a big push towards artificial materials.
> There was a big push towards mass-production.
> A lot of what makes a drone unique and charming(ie..mount
> shapes,profiles,aesthetics)
> was beginning to take a back seat.
> Compare the *workmanship* of a turn-of-the -century Henderson to a
> 1950's Henderson.
> Its night and day.
>
> As a point of interest..
> bought ,
> under the assumption that the pipes were mounted in *real ivory*.
> (it was actually celluloid).
> century,
> and this was the only piece that had real ivory mounts.
> The turning on that piece was gorgeous.
> The mounts were gorgeous.
> The *bore was the best bore of all the pieces in the set*
> The combing and beading was flawless.
> I put the bass-bottom on the lathe to do some work on it and it ran
> *perfectly*
> true and concentric...now thats good wood...and it pre-dated the rest
of
> the set by 50 years.
> 2)pipes,
> (at least form a workmanship standpoint)
> is fooling themselves.
> (and this situation happens all the time,and is generally speaking,the
> rule,not the exception)
>
--
Fernetta
~~~You know you're a piper's wife if:
He spends more time on RMMB than you do.~~~
Bagpiip
Here's the damn answer! from a customer. Yes.
Bagpiip
Dave,
If he wants to ask in that way, don't dignify him with an answer.
Brian Counihan
bag...@aol.com (Bagpiip) wrote:
> >Answer the damn question.
>
> Here's the damn answer! from a customer. Yes.
> Bill
Who more than likely doesn't know jack shite about pre-war pipes.
Be quiet newbie, let dave answer the question.
It begs to be answered.
--
Brian C.
http://www.stcolumcille.com/
"If you ever reach total enlightenment while drinking beer, I bet it
makes beer shoot out your nose." - Deep Thought, Jack Handy
madman
>
> Did he miss the point? The man asked how your pipes compare with prewar
> pipes.
>
> Answer the damn question. We want to know if the rule also applies to Kron
> pipes! So I will ask...Dave do your pipes stand with the workmanship of
> prewar pipes? (remember you said it was the rule not the exception).
>
CE Kron & Co,is the apotheosis of pre-war,and then some.
If you require the details,ask around,find a set,play them,visit our
shop,visit our web-site.
At the slow-rate that I type,I'd be here for 3 hours trying to explain
why.
Jim Sabatke
did have to look up apotheosis. I think Dave picked a good word. I
don't know of any construction that matches his pipes. Of course I'm
new to this, but I ask a lot of questions and did a LOT of research
before settling on Kron.
Jim S.
--
Jim Sabatke
SuSE 6.2 Linux
Kernel - 2.2.10
"I've never understood why women love cats. Cats are
independent, they don't listen, they don't come in when
you call, they like to stay out all night, come home and
expect to be fed and stroked, then want to be left alone
and sleep. In other words, every quality that women
hate in a man, they love in a cat."
- Unknown
Bagpiip
>did have to look up apotheosis. I think Dave picked a good word.
LOL
> I
>don't know of any construction that matches his pipes. Of course I'm
>new to this, but I ask a lot of questions and did a LOT of research
>before settling on Kron.
Welcome to "the hood" ;?)~
Jim Sabatke
up any credentials, so you are free to take my opinion for what, in your
own opinion, it is worth. For the record, I know something about
musical woods. I have studied under a couple of the best guitar
builders around. Of course that does not make me an expert on pre-war
pipes. It does give me somewhat of an idea of the qualities of wood and
construction. In the case of Kron, both are superb (IMHO). I can also
say, from firsthand experience, that Kron's service is first-rate.
Best regards,
Jim
--
Zudupiper
Brian, Dale Carnegie's got a book that would do you a lot of good.
Zu
JOHN MITCHELL
Jim Sabatke <jim.s...@mchugh.com> wrote in
> construction. In the case of Kron, both are superb (IMHO). I can also
> say, from firsthand experience, that Kron's service is first-rate.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jim
Hmmmm! We've seen this type of testimonial before!
Remember when Mark Lee came on board the Kron ship and
declared that he ws so impressed with the company, that he
now owns six sets of Kron pipes. We were all lead down
the garden path on that one.
So Jim, How long have you known Dave?
Would your playing guitar have any relationship
with Daves circle of guitar friends?
Just wondering
John
Jim Sabatke
That is a fair question. I've had a couple of emails to/from Dave.
We've talked a couple of times on the phone. I don't know him
personally, or his circle of friends. I don't believe I knew about his
guitar playing before I bought the Krons.
I don't really want to lead anyone down any path. I think any quality
instrument is a very personal choice, and individuals will have their
own opinions, expectations, etc. I just found all of the things I was
looking for with Kron.
It's interesting how the same "discussions" go on in guitar circles; if
Brazilian or Indian rosewood is better, I like maple. Like I say, the
sound and other expectations are personal and may even be intangible,
just a feeling.
Jim
--
Bagpiip
>
>Zu
Your assuming he can read... ;?)~
Bagpiip
>
Yep your right! Only what I've read.
>let dave answer the question.
You don't really want an answer, now do you?
madman
>
>
> Hmmmm! We've seen this type of testimonial before!
>
> Remember when Mark Lee came on board the Kron ship and
> declared that he ws so impressed with the company, that he
> now owns six sets of Kron pipes. We were all lead down
> the garden path on that one.
Actually ,Mark said he owned 4 sets...and he did own four.
I believe he sold one set and now he's down to three.
Don't take my word for it,ask Chris Hamilton who has *actually*
been to his home.
And yes,Mark paid retail..actually he paid more than retail as he's
always sending me
exotic woods to turn into bagpipes....again,ask Mr. Hamilton,
who has seen his VAST collection of drones/chanters made of exotic
hardwoods.
> So Jim, How long have you known Dave?
I don't know him personally,he's a customer.
> Would your playing guitar have any relationship
> with Daves circle of guitar friends?
I have no friends.
>
>
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
About the same crap I wrote. Should have read your post first. Great
minds think alike.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
<sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Jim Sabatke <jim.s...@mchugh.com> wrote in
>
>> construction. In the case of Kron, both are superb (IMHO). I can also
>> say, from firsthand experience, that Kron's service is first-rate.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Jim
>
>Hmmmm! We've seen this type of testimonial before!
You mean from happy Kron buyers. Wonder if that's because they're Kron
customers and they're happy?
>Remember when Mark Lee came on board the Kron ship and
>declared that he ws so impressed with the company, that he
>now owns six sets of Kron pipes.
You mean because he lives thousands of miles away from Kron and
doesn't or didn't know any of the company, liked the product and
actually bought at least six sets of Kron pipes?
>We were all lead down
>the garden path on that one.
You mean the path to light truth and righteousness? You mean he was
entirely truthful and in spite of your outright lying about products
you'd never seen nor heard everyone found out he was telling the
truth?
>So Jim, How long have you known Dave?
And why would that make a difference? More of this "he's on the
payroll shite?" Franky John, you're something of a pariah now in the
PPBSO and not even your closest pals back you up anymore, so why don't
you just crawl back into the bottle, tuck in your newspapers on that
park bench you live on now, put out you tin cup and try to get back on
your feet instead of trying to feck over people on long settle
propositions here?
>Would your playing guitar have any relationship
>with Daves circle of guitar friends?
Actually Dave is a reclusive, obsessive guitar hermit and he doesn't
have any friends. Which still gives him more than you have.
>Just wondering
Shut up and play. Something you at least until recently could still do
well.
Royce
Brian Counihan
bag...@aol.com (Bagpiip) wrote:
>
> You don't really want an answer, now do you?
> Bill
Actually, yes I do! Dave makes a sweeping statement about how all post
WWII pipes aren't worth a dime. With his being a pipemaker and after
seeing all the posts ad infinitum on how great Kron pipes are (I'm not
argueing the quality of Krons here), I'd like to have him explain his
statement. Is that to much to ask?
Dave posts many times on his superb qualities as a pipemaker.
Dave posts many times on the superb qualities of the product he
produces.
Dave makes sweeping statement condemnming all post WWII pipes.
Dave MAKES post WWII pipes! (be hard to do otherwise).
Dave paints himself into a corner (we knew it would have to happen
sometime).
Dave hasn't given us a serious explanation yet.
Well Dave, I'm waiting. I'm really interested in your answer.
Brian Counihan
You've missed the point. I'm not debating the quality of his pipes.
I'm pointing out the inrony of his statement. All post WWII pipes suck.
He MAKES post WWII pipes (again, duh).
Brian Counihan
zudu...@aol.com (Zudupiper) wrote:
> > Be quiet newbie, let dave answer the question.
>
> Brian, Dale Carnegie's got a book that would do you a lot of good.
>
> Zu
>
Now, Now, Zu,
You know my past posts have not been mean spirited. That facts are he
is a newbie and doesn't know squat about a classic pipe and is a huge
madman/kron/lerwick defender.
The only person I want to hear an answer from is Dave. And not some
sarcastic filled hyperbole either. It was a serious question that
deserves a serious answer. Short and sweet, no bullshit involved.
aberdeen
"Ron Bowen" <Ron_...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> I restore/refurbish perhaps a dozen or more sets of pipes each year.
Over
> the last 30 years I've overhauled scores of pipes. This doesn't
qualify me
> as an expert, however I generally know enough to get by. I am both
> astounded and confounded by some of what I see.
Good historical perspective, Ringo. I'm curious as to when in the
history of bagpipe making metal ferrules began to be added. Very old
sets used bone or other material, and I've seen some later ones, ca.
1850s or 1860s, which have silver ferrules on them. But I don't really
know when the nickel silver ferrules began to be used, or who was the
first to do so. It also brings up the question as to what purpose they
saw the ferrules serving (not an easy question to answer without a fair
amount of conjecture).
With your experience in refurbishing older pipes, I was curious as to
how many sets you have personally seen with threaded metal fittings,
including nickel silver ferrules, on them.
All the best,
Jim
-----------
Jim Hudgins
Aberdeen Bagpipe Supply
<http://www.AberdeenBagpipe.com>
Bagpiip
>have any friends.
I think the lynch mobs you must fight your way past to get to his shop are
testimonial enough to that (but the torches make finding your way easier at
night). I keep telling him to get those bolts removed from his neck so he'll be
more "socially acceptable", but he just won't listen...
Chris Hamilton
wrote:
>JOHN MITCHELL wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hmmmm! We've seen this type of testimonial before!
>Yes..I have a LOT of very,very,pleased customers.
>
>
>>
>> Remember when Mark Lee came on board the Kron ship and
>> declared that he ws so impressed with the company, that he
>> now owns six sets of Kron pipes. We were all lead down
>> the garden path on that one.
>Actually ,Mark said he owned 4 sets...and he did own four.
>I believe he sold one set and now he's down to three.
>Don't take my word for it,ask Chris Hamilton who has *actually*
>been to his home.
Yup, I've been there, I've seen the goodies.
>And yes,Mark paid retail..actually he paid more than retail as he's
>always sending me
>exotic woods to turn into bagpipes....again,ask Mr. Hamilton,
>who has seen his VAST collection of drones/chanters made of exotic
>hardwoods.
Snakewood, cocabola, etc. etc. phenolic etc.
Cool stuff.
Chris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Hamilton -- Tone...@erols.com
City of Washington Pipe Band
http://toneczar.freeservers.com/
madman
>
>
> Actually, yes I do! Dave makes a sweeping statement about how all post
> WWII pipes aren't worth a dime.
More to the point ,I said they don't compare to pre-war quality.
>
> .
> Well Dave, I'm waiting. I'm really interested in your answer.
I'll make this as simple as possible,as I don't type very fast.
Pre-war attributes of quality,
limited production,
translating to ultra high-quality raw materials.
Very well seasoned and aged ,mature wood
Drones/chanters made by hand,and made only by hand
Attention to detail
Threaded mounts
Threaded ring caps
Threaded bushes
Threaded ferrules(at least on the non-metal ones)
Threaded soles
Threaded bulbs
Aesthetics,Aesthetics,Aesthetics,
CE Kron & Co,NY attributes,
limited production,
translating to ultra high-quality raw materials.
Very well seasoned and aged ,mature wood
Drones/chanters made by hand,and made only by hand
Attention to detail
Threaded mounts
Threaded ring caps
Threaded bushes
Threaded ferrules(I thread all ferrules onto the wood,so I've actually
done one better,
I use ONLY sterling silver,even on our least expensive set,and of course
I
thread all non metal ferrules as well)
Threaded soles
Threaded bulbs
Aesthetics,Aesthetics,Aesthetics,
Charlie and I had the great opportunity to apprentice with George
Kilgour,who has been making
bagpipes since he was 13,he was apprenticed at Robertsons shop beginning
in 1940,
so we have the advantage of really knowing the difference,and applying
that knowledge.
If you think *I'm* making sweeping indictments,have a chat with Mr.
Kilgour,
you can find him on Grove Street,Edinburgh.
He'll fill you in on the massive decline of bagpipe-making
craftsmanship,in
the past 60 years.
Bagpiip
True, and my comment regarding Brians ability to read puts me in need of Dales
book myself.
Sorry Brian.
Zudupiper
Not mean spirited, but I'd call them "rude". "How to Win Friends and Influence
People" is the full title of the book. I've read it myself.
Zu
Brian Counihan
Thanks Dave, that was a very clear and precise answer and pretty much
what I was looking for. I know you've talked about threaded ferrules et
al before and I have to agree it's a good thing. Very annoying when they
start to slip and fall off.
Off hand, what makers do you know of that turn all wood by hand and
which makers would you classify as mass producers (and I'm not talking
paki crapi here)?
--
Brian C.
http://www.stcolumcille.com/
"If you ever reach total enlightenment while drinking beer, I bet it
makes beer shoot out your nose." - Deep Thought, Jack Handy
JOHN MITCHELL
Royce Lerwick <pmle...@wavetech.net> wrote in message
> You mean from happy Kron buyers. Wonder if that's because they're Kron
> customers and they're happy?
They would be happy with a set of Lego bricks to play with all day too!
Lets face facts, when it comes to sound, Kron cannot produce a chanter,
and thier drones were rated the worst by the P&D survey of the mid 90's
It's in print!!!!!!
Kron is not played by anyone or even has one endorsement from any open
player!
> You mean because he lives thousands of miles away from Kron and
> doesn't or didn't know any of the company,
He's already admitted he's known Dave for 20 years?
> actually bought at least six sets of Kron pipes?
A simple case of more money than brains!
> And why would that make a difference? More of this "he's on the
> payroll shite?" Franky John, you're something of a pariah now in the
> PPBSO and not even your closest pals back you up anymore, so why don't
That's pretty funny coming from a hack that never was and still isn't!
Keep going on Royce, your in this game to make money with your book, Zetland
Pipes
and what ever else you can scheme away at. How many sets of kron pipes have
you sold?
The Mann
"JOHN MITCHELL" <sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> They would be happy with a set of Lego bricks to play with all day
too!<
Idiot.
Tim Sullivan
JOHN MITCHELL <sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:384ca490$1...@news.newsfeeds.com...
>
> Royce Lerwick <pmle...@wavetech.net> wrote in message
>
> > You mean from happy Kron buyers. Wonder if that's because they're Kron
> > customers and they're happy?
>
> and thier drones were rated the worst by the P&D survey of the mid 90's
>
> It's in print!!!!!!
An interesting take. By the same logic, 'Meine Kampf', 'Chariots of the
Gods' and 'It's a Wonderful Life' are therefore perfect and infallible -
they, too, are in print!
Get a life, John. Failing that, have a pint.
Bagpiip
>Lets face facts, when it comes to sound, Kron cannot produce a chanter,
>and thier drones were rated the worst
Trying to make friends again John? Dale Carnegies book would benefit you too!
Your sadly misguided opinion comes from listening to how many sets again? Zero,
nada, zilch, which is what your opinion of Krons means to anyone here.
Don't bother citing some lame lop-sided study, just because it's the only
defense you have. The fact that o'er a dozen people from this NG have bought
them, and are thrilled means nothing to you (a guy whose never heard them...).
>Kron is not played by anyone or even has one endorsement from any open
>player!
So that set being carried around by Allistar is just for show? Your only
defense to that was "Allistar who?". You just avoided the obvious. And then
there's Willie "who?" and then there's...ahh I'm wasting my time here, aren't
I?
signed
Bill "who?"
oshpiper
> They would be happy with a set of Lego bricks to play with all day
too!
Are you giving us a hint as to what you want for Christmas, John? You
are sly.
> Lets face facts, when it comes to sound, Kron cannot produce a
chanter,
Gee I've seen, heard and played some of Kron's chanters.
Maybe it's just that your hearing is tuned to 'dog whistle' frequencies.
> Kron is not played by anyone...
Not by anyone you respect. But, then you don't even respect yourself.
> A simple case of more money than brains!
And, where were you when the brains were passed out?
Pat
madman
>
> Royce Lerwick <pmle...@wavetech.net> wrote in message
>
> > You mean from happy Kron buyers. Wonder if that's because they're Kron
> > customers and they're happy?
>
>
> It's in print!!!!!!
mouth off
like that.
I'm glad you brought up the P&D survey.
Thats the same rag that back in 97' completely pissed on the American
Flag.
(May 97,Editorial)
I quote.."Its not the fault of the Americans,its the American way"
Not to mention how that same editorial crapped on millions,I repeat
millions of Irish_Americans who celebrate St.Patricks Day every year.
That editorial was vulgar,offensive, and preposterous.
The tone of that editorial basically sums up *your* attitude as well.
With that in mind,its no wonder that same rag would completely lambast
an American product,even though their assessment is 180 degrees out of
phase
with what some of the best players on the planet have assured us of.
I don't need *you* to grant credence to our pipes.
I don't need P&D to grant credence to our pipes.
Its the *Americans* who have supported this firm for the past 13 years.
The issue of our quality,our workmanship,our *tone* has moved way
beyond,
that need.
Tone? you ask about?
TWO Oban Gold medalists have assured us that the pipes we make are,and
I'll quote,
"Steady as a Rock,and they have exactly the sound I like".
Someone is completely full of shite...and it isn't those two Oban Gold
medalists.
Bob Cameron
JOHN MITCHELL wrote:
> Royce Lerwick <pmle...@wavetech.net> wrote in message
>
> > You mean from happy Kron buyers. Wonder if that's because they're Kron
> > customers and they're happy?
>
> They would be happy with a set of Lego bricks to play with all day too!
> Lets face facts, when it comes to sound, Kron cannot produce a chanter,
> and thier drones were rated the worst by the P&D survey of the mid 90's
>
> It's in print!!!!!!
>
An old survey from a limited population of pipers is not Holy Writ in my
estimation.
If the survey were to be taken today, might the results be different?
>
> Kron is not played by anyone or even has one endorsement from any open
> player
Not by anyone? Such Excrement! Endorsements can be bought rather cheaply, I
understand, and there are worse sets of pipes ariound than these that have some
famous P/M's name attached to them - and that's been true for years.
Until you have tried a set of Krons. or inspected them, or at least had a listen
to some other capapble piper playing a set, your opinion is meaningless on this
subject. You offer no critique of tone or workmanship, because you do not have the
slightest first -hand clue.
all you have had to offer on this subject is reactionary dogma based on
second-hand information. I'm not trying to promote Krons here- I'm not about to
flatly stae that they're the best or worst of pipes, just suggesting that if you
don't know first hand, you're making an ass of yourself to keep spouting off on the
subject.
The Mann
In article <19991207064232...@ng-ft1.aol.com>,
bag...@aol.com (Bagpiip) wrote:
> >They would be happy with a set of Lego bricks to play with all day
too!
> >Lets face facts, when it comes to sound, Kron cannot produce a
chanter,
> >and thier drones were rated the worst
>
> Trying to make friends again John? Dale Carnegies book would benefit
you too!
> Your sadly misguided opinion comes from listening to how many sets
again? Zero,
> nada, zilch, which is what your opinion of Krons means to anyone here.
> Don't bother citing some lame lop-sided study, just because it's the
only
> defense you have. The fact that o'er a dozen people from this NG have
bought
> them, and are thrilled means nothing to you (a guy whose never heard
them...).
>
> >Kron is not played by anyone or even has one endorsement from any
open
> >player!
>
> So that set being carried around by Allistar is just for show? Your
only
> defense to that was "Allistar who?". You just avoided the obvious.
And then
> there's Willie "who?" and then there's...ahh I'm wasting my time
here, aren't
> I?
> signed
> Bill "who?"
>
--
"My granny could out pipe you, AND your granny"
Bagpiip
>too!
>
>are sly.
>
>
>chanter,
>
>Maybe it's just that your hearing is tuned to 'dog whistle' frequencies.
>
>
>> Kron is not played by anyone...
>
>Not by anyone you respect. But, then you don't even respect yourself.
>
>
>
>> A simple case of more money than brains!
>
>And, where were you when the brains were passed out?
>
>Pat
You know at this point I must seperate myself from John, because as much fun as
it was to be a "friend to the greats" (and it was flattering, for awhile) I've
pretty much had enough of your crap. He's a wonderful player of the instrument,
but his judgement leaves much to be desired, at least on the NG. But I guess
I'm the perfect example of "please don't judge me by my comments here" and I
can only hope its not representative of your real life ideals. Maybe theres a
lesson here for me too! But it makes my heart sad to think thats true. Please
make me reconsider my thinking John.
Thanks for all the help and advice you gave myself and my family, but my
feelings are not necasarily inclusive of them too. But you will never be
forgotten by me for your kindness. It was/is a great thing to be a regular guy.
I'll buy you a beer anytime. But spread the word, that I'll never shave off
that 6" off my legs to fit your, or anyone elses image of what I look like. I
hide from no one!
I'll always look forward to hearing you play, because you are are a great
musician and a great guy, but your comments have won you no friends. I'm sorry
John, but your judgement is even worse than mine (if thats possible).
So at this point I bid you a fond farewell, and wish you well, because that's
the best I can say right now.
Bill, the silent "shut the fuck up and play" guy.
I love you man, but I can no longer be silent.
Royce Lerwick
<sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Keep going on Royce, your in this game to make money with your book, Zetland
>Pipes
>and what ever else you can scheme away at. How many sets of kron pipes have
>you sold?
Haven't sold any of the latter.
Can't teach an old dog new tricks though I guess. Just stick with what
you know.
Royce
JOHN MITCHELL
The Mann <thema...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> "JOHN MITCHELL" <sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > They would be happy with a set of Lego bricks to play with all day
> too!<
>
Ooooo! look! a comment from another one of those nameless posters.
Obvoisly your related to Osh Piper!
Why don't you go suck off your osh causin for
awhile and leave the real talk to the people that
actually know something about bagpipes!
oshpiper
"JOHN MITCHELL" <sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Why don't you go suck off your osh causin for
> awhile...
Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
... and leave the real talk to the people that
> actually know something about bagpipes!
And, we will leave the other "real talk: to you, because you apparently
know everything about act of Sucking Off.
Pat
Ron Bowen
This thread has taken some interesting twists and turns, however nobody
offered any comment on your musings.
I have come across only a few sets with threaded ferules. Even these had
loosened and had been "retro-fitted" using treated hemp. I don't think that
this was the original method of affixing the ferule, so I am left to
conclude that it was necessary to compensate for wood shrinkage that
occurred over the years.
I discussed ferules with Jack Dunbar a few weeks ago and picked up some very
interesting insights. He maintains, and I believe that he is correct, that
ivory, and imitation ferules provide no structural support to the wood. He
maintains that they are purely ornamental. In fact, because wood must be
removed to allow the ferule to be fitted, he believes that it probably
weakens that area of the drone substantially. It is also likely that silver
ferules provide little if any support, as they are generally not fitted as
tightly as nickel or other metal rings.
Which brings us to nickel ferules. In Jack's days at Hendersons, he related
how they would force the ring down over the piece, often so tightly that it
constricted the tuning chamber where the ring was fitted. I think we have
all seen those drones that fit tightly at the end of the tuning chamber,
only to be loose deeper inside the chamber. He spoke of reboring the
chambers after fitting the metal ferules to restore original tuning chamber
dimensions.
From my perspective, metal ferules help protect the sharp edge of wood at
the top of the stock or the bottom of the tuning chamber. Without the
ferules, I think the edges would suffer. I also think that metal or nickel
ferules provide a bit of support to the structure, however with the
probability of wood shrinkage over the years, (especially on this continent)
this is probably reduced or eliminated over time. Regular oiling of the
wood should combat this somewhat.
As for threading the metal ferules, I think that it is reflective of great
care and concern for the finished product. I would have to defer to a
structural engineer as to whether or not it provides greater support to the
wood than non-threaded ferules.
As with all things, bagpipe too must be maintained and renewed from time to
time. I hate to see a poorly maintained bagpipe. To me, it's like seeing a
classic car in the dump. If only somebody had taken the time to keep it up,
it probably would still be on the road.
Great to be back. Sorry about the lapses. Good to see John active once
again. Certainly adds spice to the NG.
Ringo
aberdeen <aber...@wt.net> wrote in message
news:82gqvo$kkl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
madman
>
> I have come across only a few sets with threaded ferules. Even these had
> loosened and had been "retro-fitted" using treated hemp. I don't think that
> this was the original method of affixing the ferule, so I am left to
> conclude that it was necessary to compensate for wood shrinkage that
> occurred over the years.
It may be entirely possible that hat you observed was not threads at
all,
but simply an arifact of the making process.
Also,the maker may have used a thread pitch that was entirely too
small to compensate for any movement in the wood.
This is common with older pipes ,where the thread pitch was 30 TPI and
above
and the wood had shrunk beneath a point of the height of the threads
hypotenuse.
> It is also likely that silver
> ferules provide little if any support, as they are generally not fitted as
> tightly as nickel or other metal rings.
of Sterling silver.
Those types of ferrules can't be "drifted" onto the wood,because the
guage is so thin,that there is a risk of the ferrule splitting,or being
damaged whilst it is being "drifted" onto the wood.
Structurally,they are weak.(sure are pretty though)
>
> Which brings us to nickel ferules. In Jack's days at Hendersons, he related
> how they would force the ring down over the piece, often so tightly that it
> constricted the tuning chamber where the ring was fitted.
True,True, all true, but there is a point after which the *metal* is
being stretched
and is not going to give the desired effect of inward tension.
>
> As for threading the metal ferules, I think that it is reflective of great
> care and concern for the finished product. I would have to defer to a
> structural engineer as to whether or not it provides greater support to the
> wood than non-threaded ferules.
I use sterling silver ONLY for our least expensive set.
I use a very thick gauge of sterling to accomadate being threaded onto
the wood.
For instance,on one of our stocks,the OD of the ferrule is 1.3140, the
ID of the
ferrule is 1.2100.
The wall thickness is roughly .055,almost a 16th of an inch in
thickness.
The ferrule is threaded with 55 degree British Standard Whitworth thread
pitch.
The thread pitch is .04167(this would be the hypotenuse).
The threads per inch is 24.
We can calculate the MASSIVE increase in *surface-area* with these
numbers in mind.
The length of the ferrule when finished is 13/16".
(multiply the hypotenuse length x 2 and multiply it by the overall
length)
By threading the ferrule we have increased the surface area by roughly
6 and 2/3rds times the original surface area(which was 13/16ths).
By increasing the *surface area* using threads, we have also increased
the tension that we can put on the ferrule ,thus increasing the overall
effectiveness of the ferrule,and making things much.much,more
structurally sound.
Furthermore,with the above numbers in mind,we can calculate just how
much
*shrinkage* or movement in the ferrule must occur before the ferrule
will no longer be effectively working.
The thread height(height of the hypotenuse) is .031.
This a radial measurement.Ferrules are round ,so we must double this
number
to find out what we need to know.
The ferrule must at *least* shrink by a diameter measurement of .062,
which is slightly higher than 1/16th of an inch,before it will not be
effective.
Actually ,I use a slightly *tapered* thread which gives *even-more* room
for
the wood to adjust.Add another .006 to the .062.
Lastly, the face of the ferrule that butts up against the wood
is faced off in a slightly concave manner,and the wood is faced in a
slightly concave manner,to insure that even with slight movement in the
wood,the two surfaces will *always* be flush.
I overlook no detail.
There are 48 threads on *every* set of our bagpipes.
African Blackwood is a precious resource.Posterity matters.
Mike Le Boeuf
And everyone in this Newsgroup is going to have an exam on this next
monday.
gibson...@stratos.net
You are dead right that imitation ivory are not as strong as metal
ferrules...this is for two reasons...
a) Metal ferrules being thinner allow more wood to the part therefore
allowing greater strength to the wood joint or part
Also as Stainless steel which is what i use for metal ferrules the point of
yeild is approx 45 times the strength of imitation ivory.
Unfortunately many pipers don't understand that they should only hemp their
joints to be a smooth fit...what i mean here is two fingers to rotate the
drone section is fine the drone should not rotate in the stock when tuning
the drone part.
Many pipers over hemp their pipes then wonder why on earth the stocks or
drone parts have cracked.. they blame the maker...when all the time its
their own fault.!!!!!! .they must remember wood is weak especially
blackwood when you over stress the end grain of it by over hemping the
joint.
I'll put it this way...take a pine or oak 2 x 2 and take a taper nail and
try pounding it on the end or in near the edge..the wood will split
..right...so will blackwood...its not steel.!!!! So you proudly hemp your
joints tightly with a sliding fit and boy are you pleased...you play them
for 1/2 an hour and lay the pipes down and lo and behold the stock
cracked...wow...bad part...no way...what hapened was the hemp took on some
moisture and swelled and the force of this swelling of the hemp over came
the yield point of the blackwood... I could give you the math here but its
useless as its the point that has to be made.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Jerry Gibson
Ron Bowen <Ron_...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:GJP34.5781$P23....@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Jim, I've been away for the week and was catching up on the NG this
morning.
> This thread has taken some interesting twists and turns, however nobody
> offered any comment on your musings.
>
> I have come across only a few sets with threaded ferules. Even these had
> loosened and had been "retro-fitted" using treated hemp. I don't think
that
> this was the original method of affixing the ferule, so I am left to
> conclude that it was necessary to compensate for wood shrinkage that
> occurred over the years.
>
> I discussed ferules with Jack Dunbar a few weeks ago and picked up some
very
> interesting insights. He maintains, and I believe that he is correct,
that
> ivory, and imitation ferules provide no structural support to the wood.
He
> maintains that they are purely ornamental. In fact, because wood must be
> removed to allow the ferule to be fitted, he believes that it probably
> weakens that area of the drone substantially. It is also likely that
silver
> ferules provide little if any support, as they are generally not fitted as
> tightly as nickel or other metal rings.
>
> Which brings us to nickel ferules. In Jack's days at Hendersons, he
related
> how they would force the ring down over the piece, often so tightly that
it
> constricted the tuning chamber where the ring was fitted. I think we have
> all seen those drones that fit tightly at the end of the tuning chamber,
> only to be loose deeper inside the chamber. He spoke of reboring the
> chambers after fitting the metal ferules to restore original tuning
chamber
> dimensions.
>
> From my perspective, metal ferules help protect the sharp edge of wood at
> the top of the stock or the bottom of the tuning chamber. Without the
> ferules, I think the edges would suffer. I also think that metal or
nickel
> ferules provide a bit of support to the structure, however with the
> probability of wood shrinkage over the years, (especially on this
continent)
> this is probably reduced or eliminated over time. Regular oiling of the
> wood should combat this somewhat.
>
> As for threading the metal ferules, I think that it is reflective of great
> care and concern for the finished product. I would have to defer to a
> structural engineer as to whether or not it provides greater support to
the
> wood than non-threaded ferules.
>