2-octave Scottish smallpipes?
Lawrence Washington
Do Scottish smallpipes exist keyed to play from D up to at least B above
the next D? I gather 7-key Northumbrian G sets can do this, but their
chanter holes may be too close together for some to play. Uilleann pipes
can do a second octave by overblowing, but... What are the options in this
regard?
MiffMole
>Do Scottish smallpipes exist keyed to play from D up to at least B above<BR>
>the next D? I gather 7-key Northumbrian G sets can do this, but their<BR>
>chanter holes may be too close together for some to play. Uilleann pipes<BR>
>can do a second octave by overblowing, but... What are the options in this
What about NSPs in lower keys, with larger spacing of the finger holes? If
you're after SSPs, then uilleann pipes probably aren't what you're after. I'm
not aware of an SSP design that will jump an octave or has been keyed for that
many extra notes. I'm curious too.
Keith Elliott
Stuart Hall
In article <lwashing-220...@raven.bio.indiana.edu>,
lwas...@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Lawrence Washington) wrote:
> Do Scottish smallpipes exist keyed to play from D up to at least B above
> the next D? I gather 7-key Northumbrian G sets can do this, but their
> chanter holes may be too close together for some to play. Uilleann pipes
> can do a second octave by overblowing, but... What are the options in this
> regard?
Scottish smallpipes with that wide a range do not exist. From the most
creative of makers I have seen, you *can* get a chanter with two notes
up (high B and high C) and a note or two down (low F#, perhaps low E). Let me
think of the notes in D . . . high E and F#, low C and maybe low B. You can't
get octaves because the parallel bore design doesn't allow it (for whatever
physical reasons I don't know). I don't know if anyone can actually go higher
than written high B (played high E) on a D chanter . . . looking at my D
smallpipe chanter, the high B hole is VERY close to the reed seat.
Plus, there are other considerations. If you want that big a range, as
someone mentioned, you probably don't want a Scottish smallpipe. You want
either an uilleann or Northumbrian pipe. Our (Scottish) gracing style
precludes
getting really fancy with keywork. You COULD make a chanter to play that
range, but then you wouldn't be able to play highland gracing very easily.
Of course, SSP gracing tends to be simpler . . .
Stuart
Charles R. Fowler
In article <lwashing-220...@raven.bio.indiana.edu>,
lwas...@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Lawrence Washington) wrote:
>Do Scottish smallpipes exist keyed to play from D up to at least B above
>the next D? I gather 7-key Northumbrian G sets can do this, but their
>chanter holes may be too close together for some to play. Uilleann pipes
>can do a second octave by overblowing, but... What are the options in this
>regard?
Myself, I know of no Scottish smallpipes that plays two octaves. The range
of the ssp are usally a 9th G to a. However, I know some makers had added a
key to some pipes so that they can play up a to 10th, a b.
Now with the right keys, I believe you can make a ssp into a two octave
instrument. On my D set with its range C to d, I can overblow the following
notes above the d and they are g,a,b,c#, and d. I can do this using the
following fingerings for my Low C can overblow to a g,
my Low D can overblow to an A, my E can overblow to a b, my f# can overblow
to a c#, and my g can overblow to a d'. With these fingering, I have to
open the thumb hole slighlty by a pinch. I always felt like if you can add
two keys to the chanter and adjust your reed just right, you can have a ssp
with a greater range.
Slainte,
Chas. Fowler
Stuart Hall
In article <6k99u2$7...@sjx-ixn11.ix.netcom.com>, Charles R. Fowler
<crfo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Now with the right keys, I believe you can make a ssp into a two octave
> instrument. On my D set with its range C to d, I can overblow the following
> notes above the d and they are g,a,b,c#, and d. I can do this using the
> following fingerings for my Low C can overblow to a g,
> my Low D can overblow to an A, my E can overblow to a b, my f# can overblow
> to a c#, and my g can overblow to a d'. With these fingering, I have to
> open the thumb hole slighlty by a pinch. I always felt like if you can add
> two keys to the chanter and adjust your reed just right, you can have a ssp
> with a greater range.
Are you sure you have a parallel-bore SSP chanter? I have been told by MANY
pipemakers on MANY occasions that parallel-bore-chanters can't overblow.
Who made your chanter?
Stuart
Royce Lerwick
On Sun, 24 May 1998 11:11:49 -0500, stu...@onramp.net (Stuart Hall)
wrote:
No, he's just really creative. The clarinet is a parallel-bore
chanter, so think about it--that gets about 3 octaves.
Parallel bores overblow a 12th is all, instead of an octave, so he's
just figured out fingerings to correct for that.
Actually, there is a legendary Scottish Pastoral pipe reconstruction I
think made by sloan that is a UP-type bored pipe with Scottish
fingering and it will get about two octaves from what I hear.
Royce
Martin Hungerford
MiffMole wrote in message
<199805222142...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>>Do Scottish smallpipes exist keyed to play from D up to at least B
above<BR>
>>the next D? I gather 7-key Northumbrian G sets can do this, but their<BR>
>>chanter holes may be too close together for some to play. Uilleann
pipes<BR>
>>can do a second octave by overblowing, but... What are the options in this
>
>
>
>What about NSPs in lower keys, with larger spacing of the finger holes? If
>you're after SSPs, then uilleann pipes probably aren't what you're after.
I'm
>not aware of an SSP design that will jump an octave or has been keyed for
that
>many extra notes. I'm curious too.
>
>Keith Elliott
hello folks. I play a 6-keyed A chanter, but we wanted the notes in the
middle, not at the extremes. However, when adding the keys in the first
place it was a matter of comparing with NSP diagrams and scaling, rather
than new design.
The NSP do it by keying downwards alot!
If you take that route, take a chanter in A (perhaps) and key upto the B
and down to the D. This might work.
Martin Hungerford
Stuart Hall
In article <3568d86b.7732945@bigtime>, pmle...@wavetech.net (Royce
Lerwick) wrote:
> No, he's just really creative. The clarinet is a parallel-bore
> chanter, so think about it--that gets about 3 octaves.
Point taken. But, that's a single-reeded instrument with an embouchure,
which does change in the upper octave. I wasn't sure it was possible
given that the only thing you can change on the SSP (other than fingering)
is air pressure. Oboes (etc.) overblow but have conical bores.
> Actually, there is a legendary Scottish Pastoral pipe reconstruction I
> think made by sloan that is a UP-type bored pipe with Scottish
> fingering and it will get about two octaves from what I hear.
That would be interesting to play!
Stuart
Royce Lerwick
On Mon, 25 May 1998 09:44:54 -0500, stu...@onramp.net (Stuart Hall)
wrote:
>In article <3568d86b.7732945@bigtime>, pmle...@wavetech.net (Royce
>Lerwick) wrote:
>
>> No, he's just really creative. The clarinet is a parallel-bore
>> chanter, so think about it--that gets about 3 octaves.
>
>Point taken. But, that's a single-reeded instrument with an embouchure,
>which does change in the upper octave. I wasn't sure it was possible
>given that the only thing you can change on the SSP (other than fingering)
>is air pressure. Oboes (etc.) overblow but have conical bores.
>
The UP stops to overblow, and the clarinet etc use octave keys that I
think leak a bit to help overblow. Other pipes like the Pastoral or
Bretonesque conical bores use a pinching of partial covering of the
back A or thumb note to leak a bit and help pop octaves with
overblowing. I don't know how easy it is to do but I'm sure if you
really want to work at it you can get ssp to pop up a 12th. I can get
my GHB to overblow with pinching at least to a high B fairly
consistently, but then, not with a really GHB-type big reed, but a
weaker one that wouldn't really win any awards.
>> Actually, there is a legendary Scottish Pastoral pipe reconstruction I
>> think made by sloan that is a UP-type bored pipe with Scottish
>> fingering and it will get about two octaves from what I hear.
>
>That would be interesting to play!
I'm not sure how easy it is to get the second octave. I've tried
popping UP's without stopping them, and it can be done, and if the
Pastoral pipe were set up with a weaker reed it's fairly easy and
dependable, but again, not with a UP-type strong reed.
>
>Stuart
ArrahCee
> I don't know how easy it is to do but I'm sure if you
>really want to work at it you can get ssp to pop up a 12th. I can get
I've tried that with my Sloans-- no luck. Anybody been
able to do that with SSP?
Rick Cunningham
arra...@aol.com
David Daye
Royce Lerwick wrote:
> The UP stops to overblow
Well it does not need to do this all the time, about half of the
possible transitions will go with simple pressure increase.
The chanter and reed must be good which is not always the
case! The state of uilleann pipe making got so low that well
known recording artists will tell you it is appropriate to
learn on a chanter that is missing many of its notes.
But this goofy state is passing as we speak.
> From:
> stu...@onramp.net (Stuart Hall)
>Our (Scottish) gracing style
> precludes
> getting really fancy with keywork.
That's only part of the story. Highland embellishments jump 9
notes in many cases at extreme speed. Try this on an uilleann
or clarinet and you'll jump the octave. Highlanders have
termed this phenomenon a "squeal" and have meticulously
evolved chanter & reed to keep from "squealing" -- that is,
jumping the octave. The mods also reduced support for other
obviously undesirable effects such as slides, pitch bending
and vibratto.
When you facilitate the octave you have to abandon at least
some of the Highland embellishments because they will trigger
unwanted octave jumps, even on keyless chanters.
david
Stuart Hall
In article <356B1A...@postbox.asc.ohio-state.edu>, day...@osu.edu wrote:
> When you facilitate the octave you have to abandon at least
> some of the Highland embellishments because they will trigger
> unwanted octave jumps, even on keyless chanters.
>
> david
Thanks for the expanded explanation, David. I've read about attempts
to add keywork just to expand the range that failed (including the original
Brien Boru chanters) because the keys had to be operated by, for example,
the bottom-hand pinky . . . precluding birls.
I have witnessed your explanation first-hand when I have tried Scottish
gracing on the UP chanter when I'm trying to be funky. Bubbly notes work
fine (cf. the cran), but the Highland high-G gracenote (or top finger of
the top hand for the non-Highlanders out there) likes to make the chanter
squeal.
Interesting!
Stuart
Isaac Alderson
I myself use the Highland high G (actually C# on the UP) on my UP chanter all
the time and it works just fine. Maybe it's due to (plug for David) the fabulous
chanter-work of David Daye. ;-)
BTW, at a meeting of the Chicago Tionol board last night at Martyr's Pub
here in Chicago, a bunch of people inquired about the Penny-Chanter (John
Gaffney, Cliff Abrams, and Jim McGuire mostly). I guess the word is more than
"out".
--
Isaac Alderson
"Bagpipes are my friends."
Bill Telfer
Royce Lerwick wrote:
>
> On Mon, 25 May 1998 09:44:54 -0500, stu...@onramp.net (Stuart Hall)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <3568d86b.7732945@bigtime>, pmle...@wavetech.net (Royce
> >Lerwick) wrote:
> >
> >> No, he's just really creative. The clarinet is a parallel-bore
> >> chanter, so think about it--that gets about 3 octaves.
> >
> >Point taken. But, that's a single-reeded instrument with an embouchure,
> >which does change in the upper octave. I wasn't sure it was possible
> >given that the only thing you can change on the SSP (other than fingering)
> >is air pressure. Oboes (etc.) overblow but have conical bores.
> >
> The UP stops to overblow, and the clarinet etc use octave keys that I
> think leak a bit to help overblow. Other pipes like the Pastoral or
> Bretonesque conical bores use a pinching of partial covering of the
> back A or thumb note to leak a bit and help pop octaves with
> really want to work at it you can get ssp to pop up a 12th. I can get
> consistently, but then, not with a really GHB-type big reed, but a
> weaker one that wouldn't really win any awards.
>
> >> Actually, there is a legendary Scottish Pastoral pipe reconstruction I
> >> think made by sloan that is a UP-type bored pipe with Scottish
> >> fingering and it will get about two octaves from what I hear.
> >
> >That would be interesting to play!
>
> I'm not sure how easy it is to get the second octave. I've tried
> popping UP's without stopping them, and it can be done, and if the
> Pastoral pipe were set up with a weaker reed it's fairly easy and
> dependable, but again, not with a UP-type strong reed.
> >
> >Stuart
Pastoral pipes are neither easy nor dependable.If they were, we would
be seing/hearing lots of them.Hamish Moore played a set on his first
album but never again, just too cussed an instrument to get going
properly. I believe several Border pipe makers have struggled for a
solution. One of them still is and there may be something to report
soon.
As far as 2-octave smallpipes is concerned, they are called Northumbrian
Smallpipes. Why re-invent the wheel? The Scottish Smallpipes are
designed to have the same scale and range as the GHB (though you can
comfortably add one or two keys to the SSP but that's all) and that's
that. If you want something else then learn the NSP as quite a few
originally GHB/SSP pipers have done and are doing-but you'll be taking
up another instrument with its own separate repertoire, culture, and
traditions.
As far as conical bored chanters are concerned several of the Central
France (not Breton) and probably other European species overblow as a
matter of course by at least half an octave as well as Jon Swayne's
beautiful English pipes and I guess if we took 'Scottish Smallpipe' out
of the subject we'd get some of these players to tell us about them. Oh
and Nigel Richard makes keyed chanters with extended range for Border,
and I think Highland pipes. Ian Lawther could tell us more about these.
Bill Telfer
Royce Lerwick
>When you facilitate the octave you have to abandon at least
>some of the Highland embellishments because they will trigger
>unwanted octave jumps, even on keyless chanters.
That'a what I wondered about the rumored Pastoral pipe--because It
seems they're essentially an UP bore with a footpiece for the low C
vents to modify it for Highland technique and fingering style, but the
UP chanters I've made originally like you say got the upper octave
rather easily until I started hearing and playing other's pipes and
found that they too really want a fatter reed that actually resists
the pop for both tone and strength of voice reasons, and staccato
play, which is not easily done on a reed that really wants to give you
the upper octave.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
On Tue, 26 May 1998 14:59:40 -0500, stu...@onramp.net (Stuart Hall)
wrote:
>I have witnessed your explanation first-hand when I have tried Scottish
>gracing on the UP chanter when I'm trying to be funky. Bubbly notes work
>fine (cf. the cran), but the Highland high-G gracenote (or top finger of
>the top hand for the non-Highlanders out there) likes to make the chanter
>squeal.
The mid C is not a strong gracenote on the UP even in the lower
octave, and A is the mainstay. But few UP chanters with big voices
even play up to high C, so most UP tunes, and most Celtic/Irish tunes
at all for that matter, don't range up higher than an A, and if
hitting a B, it's rolled up to with a slide and a lot of extra goose
on the bag to keep it true and stable.
As for the "bubbly notes" you mentioned, I think it's more than
telling that these are, like the "hornpipe shake thingie" that's
actually a double-cut roll ripped off of UP/Irish technique and thus
GHB players haven't even learned it's name, those "bubbly notes" are
nothing more than ornamental staccato triples, again, ripped right off
of UP technique, and again, not yet named or acknowledged by the GHB
"Academy."
One of the theories about MacCrimmon also, concerns the "stealing" or
harp glissando technique from which it is alleged he build his
piobaireachd ornamentation. But one thing that is absolutely
demonstrable, is that if you play for instance, a crunluath, on a
closed UP chanter--or nsp--you get intact ornamental staccato runs
that translate back over in completely useable musical form. In fact,
looking at some of the odd notations of the old Irish tutors of the
"Irish" torluaths/grips, they really look like staccato flourishes,
all you have to do is close the chanter and the redundant low G's that
give it it's "burping" effect, become the silence between the
ornamental runs.
Royce
Stuart Hall
In article <356b79d0.1753129@bigtime>, pmle...@wavetech.net (Royce
Lerwick) wrote:
> As for the "bubbly notes" you mentioned, I think it's more than
> telling that these are, like the "hornpipe shake thingie" that's
> actually a double-cut roll ripped off of UP/Irish technique and thus
> GHB players haven't even learned it's name, those "bubbly notes" are
> nothing more than ornamental staccato triples, again, ripped right off
> of UP technique, and again, not yet named or acknowledged by the GHB
> "Academy."
Are we talking about the same note? Maybe we are, but I want to make
certain. By "bubbly note" I mean the lowG-D-lowG-C-lowG note. It's
at the end of every phrase in the strathspey called Tulloch Castle (Scots
Guards vol. II, #665). Is that really not an "official" gracenote?
You learn something every day.
Stuart
Barry Say
In article <lwashing-220...@raven.bio.indiana.edu>, Lawrence
Washington <lwas...@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu> writes
>Do Scottish smallpipes exist keyed to play from D up to at least B above
Before anyone gets upset, I have read the other 16 posts on this thread,
but I couldnt find a better one to reply to.
Keys on bagpipes are funny things, they never react quite the same as
finger holes. The basic nine notes of the bagpipe scale offer a
temendous range of music which can excite the soul.
When NSP makers/plyers closed the end of the chanter a *new* stacatto
sound was produced, but a note was lost, restricting the chanter to an
octave. The addition of a key or two (following either the Uillean
regulators - or the musette) allowed the player to regain the range,
play in different keys, extend the range......
Thus, fairly quickly, (70 years maybe) the NSP became fully chromatic
over two octaves. Bear in mind however, the closed end of the chanter
press a key - note appears
release - note stops
No crossing notes.
Despite the available range of the NSP, its most exciting music remains
in and around its basic octave.
I know there are fully chromatic GHB and border/half-long pipes, but I
fail to see the point, but I am sure this will be explained.
--
Barry Say
Royce Lerwick
On Wed, 27 May 1998 11:32:13 -0500, stu...@onramp.net (Stuart Hall)
wrote:
>In article <356b79d0.1753129@bigtime>, pmle...@wavetech.net (Royce
Well that whole combination--which includes notes you don't
mention--is called a "bubbly note" by GHB players, and you only
describe notes scored by convention as 32nds. What you really playe
however, starts on a C melody note. Then you play the "bubbly note"
and end on a B. When you forget the convention of the way it's written
for GHB purposes, what you really have is C,D,CB. Usually expressed as
a melody C, (say and an 8th) followed immediately by a "triplet" run
from the D down to B. The "triplet" usually being a "strathspey
triplet" which is usually meant as two 16ths (D,C,) ending on an 8th,
(B). All you are doing to make it "bubble" is inserting low G's at the
start of the triplet, breaking up the triplet, and at the end of the
triplet. In other words, making it a staccato cluster with the low G
standing in for silence.
The way all the heavy lowerhand technique is played is identical to
the way stacatto is played on other pipes. You really aren't inserting
low G's in at all. You're closing the chanter to low G, and cutting
very sharply into low G, conceptially breaking up the low G with
ornamental staccato licks.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
On Wed, 27 May 1998 22:46:47 +0100, Barry Say
<Barr...@nspipes.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>No crossing notes.
Oh Barry! You know if you really try you can produce crossing noises!
It's just a question of dedication.
>I know there are fully chromatic GHB and border/half-long pipes, but I
>fail to see the point, but I am sure this will be explained.
The point is: Easier to dress up an old trick than teach an old dog a
new one.
Royce
Ian Lawther
In article <356BAE...@netvigator.com>, Bill Telfer
<telo...@netvigator.com> writes
>and Nigel Richard makes keyed chanters with extended range for Border,
>and I think Highland pipes. Ian Lawther could tell us more about these.
>
>Bill Telfer
>
OK Bill, bait taken!
Nigel Richard is a border and small pipe maker in EDinburgh, who
originally wasa clarinet and oboe repairer. He has added keys to his
border chanters, and also does a similar GHB chanter. His key work is
based on "rod and pillar" technology like Boehm system orchestral
instruments, and on my (A) chanter gives a chromatice range (except top
Bb) from low E to top C#. Top B,C, and C# are played with the left
thumb, which tends to mean some small crossing noise unless you are
hitting them from high A when your thumb is already free. Low E and F#
are played with the left pinky, and he has put a "roller" on the E to
aid moving between them. C natural can be cross fingered as on GHB but
also has the the option of a left pinky key. Upper and lower F nats are
played with the right thumb, and lower G natural with the right pinky.
This key is a reverse L shaped with the foot lying under the pinky
position on the chanter and the uprightjust to the finger tip. Thus by
playing a GHB Low G and adding slight presure to the key with the finger
tip you get G Nat. Bb is also keyed with the right pinky. Other notes
are cross fingered.
The complicated "Boehm" system bit comes in the linkages which ensure
that if you hit a low key such as bottom E all other keys between it an
the fingered low G close.
AS an extended border pipe playing things like the fiddle repertoir it
is fine. It is also possible to play highland tunes in a highland style
but great care must be taken when birling to avoid the keys either side
of the A hole (Bb above, and G# below), and similarly you have to watch
you don't catch the top B key when striking the high A with the thumb.
The system is a radical improvement on the Brien Boru which gave a
similar range to the GHB chanter, but I have still to explore its full
possibilties (and dare I say failings!).
-- /
Ian Lawther http://www.northernlight.demon.co.uk/ian2.htm O///
Faversham, <|o>
Kent, UK. |\
||
Stuart Hall
In article <bbqSEMAH...@nspipes.demon.co.uk>, Barry Say
<Barr...@nspipes.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Despite the available range of the NSP, its most exciting music remains
> in and around its basic octave.
>
> I know there are fully chromatic GHB and border/half-long pipes, but I
> fail to see the point, but I am sure this will be explained.
I didn't reply to this earlier because I had to graduate from school, but
now that THAT's all done with . . . :)
I think Barry's really hit the nail on the head with this one. This is
an excellent point. A chromatic two-octave mouth-blown pipe with two tenor
and one bass drone wouldn't be a GHB, it'd be something else. We've got a
chromatic two-octave bellows-blown pipe with regulators already, called
the UP.
I DO understand the desire to expand the range of the GHB/SSP, though,
since there are some tunes that just don't work. But, that desire is what
led me to the UP, which isn't ALL THAT different a chanter. I play the
Scottish/Border rep. on the GHB/SSP, and am learning the Irish rep. for
the UP.
Stuart