Truth about Kron Heritage
Ron Bowen
to report that they do indeed stand up to close scrutiny. The set I
acquired is actually featured on Kron's website. The pictures don't lie.
This is a superior bagpipe in just about every sense of the word.
Kron's workmanship and attention to detail is excellent. Things really jump
out at you when you put other bagpipes next to it and compare the two, piece
by piece. Yes, the beading and combing is deep and perfect in every
respect. The mounts are all perfectly porportioned and consistent
throughout the bagpipe. Subtle little artistic touches are everywhere. And
the things that you don't see are there too! All typical of Kron
workmanship.
Some people aren't into this. They tend to approach their bagpipe more as a
tool than an art object. These people won't be disappointed with the sound
and performance of the Heritage. It accepted a range of reeds without
difficulty or incident and delivered the goods. The sound is "Henderson"
and very good "Henderson" at that. I did note that the bass drone has been
modified from the original Henderson specifications to allow the drone to
tune in a more extended position. You'll notice that most Henderson bass
drones tune about two fingers from the top projecting mount on the bottom
section. The Heritage is inclined to tune just below the hemp line.
Is the Heritage the "right" bagpipe for everyone? The answer is "no" for
any number of reasons, both real and imagined. But I believe that it should
be a consideration and an important basis for comparison.
Everyone has heard me speak highly of both Dunbar and MacLellan drones, and
I will continue to do so. Both are excellent bagpipes. I'm happy to add
the Heritage to that short list of excellent bagpipes.
Ah, no, I don't sell Kron bagpipes but I would be more than happy to answer
any of your questions or to direct you to someone who does!
Ringo
Luramao
Bill is this you writing this?
..........................................................................
Truth about Kron Heritage
Group: rec.music.makers.bagpipe Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001, 10:28pm From:
ron_...@sympatico.ca (Ron Bowen)
Bpiper3981
The sound is "Henderson"
and very good "Henderson" at that.
Henderson is rolling over in his grave.
dgr...@cs.csuabk.edu
> Bill? MrRobotTow? Bill, did you hijack Ringo's email address too?
> Bill is this you writing this?
According to the headers, the message came from a dialup in St
Catherine's, so I'd say it's probably genuine.
--
David Griffith
dgr...@cs.csubak.edu
Luramao
Just wondering, did you get a Medallist chanter with it? If so, what
did you think of it?
DAMurphie
Yes he is, but only because a hemmoroid like you used his name.
Murph
DAMurphie
>
>Just wondering, did you get a Medallist chanter with it? If so, what
>did you think of it?
Why ask a great Gr1 player like Bowen when you could ask a gr4 drop-out piper
like speed, who has never seen or heard The Kron Heritage edition bagpipe?
<sarcasm included>
Murph
Ron Bowen
All passion and prejudice aside, we in North America are indeed fortunate to
have three makers that are following the Henderson tradition. Unique
styling aside, MacLellan's pipe is similar in sound to those Henderson
bagpipes made prior to Peter's time, by his father Donald, up until about
1880. Dunbar bagpipes are almost exactly as Jack Dunbar made them when
working for Henderson in the 1930's. The Heritage is based on JM's 1913
Henderson, but has Kron style and workmanship. I think that this is
terrific for consumers and competitors. I remember back in the 1970's when
there was a panic among players to grab Henderson bagpipes before they all
disappeared. I don't think we have to worry anymore.
The old makers may be turning over in their graves, but I doubt that these
three makers have anything to do with it!
Ringo
Ron Bowen
I haven't really given the Medalist a workout to date. When I get a chance,
I'll let you know.
The REAL Ringo
"Luramao" <lur...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17380-3BF...@storefull-293.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Chris Hamilton
<ron_...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>The old makers may be turning over in their graves, but I doubt that these
>three makers have anything to do with it!
If they ever turned over in their graves, the 70s would've been the
time to do it. There are so many good pipemakers out there now, I
think they'd be pleased.
If they're turning over in their graves now, they must live along a
seismic fault line.
Chris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Christopher Hamilton -- ToneCzar Inc.
ch...@toneczar.com -- www.toneczar.com
JOHN MITCHELL
> Interesting post.......
>
> Just wondering, did you get a Medallist chanter with it? If so, what
> did you think of it?
We all ready received your WOW report on the chanter Lura,
why do we need Ron's?
JM
JOHN MITCHELL
> Well, folks. I have recently acquired a Kron Heritage bagpipe and I'm happy
> to report that they do indeed stand up to close scrutiny. The set I
> acquired is actually featured on Kron's website. The pictures don't lie.
> This is a superior bagpipe in just about every sense of the word.
You must have sipped that blue liquid that comes with every set
of Kron pipes! "MUST GO TO COMPUTER, MUST GO TO COMPUTER< MUST GO TO....."
> Kron's workmanship and attention to detail is excellent. Things really jump
> out at you when you put other bagpipes next to it and compare the two, piece
> by piece. Yes, the beading and combing is deep and perfect in every
> respect. The mounts are all perfectly porportioned and consistent
> throughout the bagpipe. Subtle little artistic touches are everywhere. And
> the things that you don't see are there too! All typical of Kron
> workmanship.
Is there a rubber stamp that all you guys use for this type of post?
> Some people aren't into this. They tend to approach their bagpipe more as a
> tool than an art object.
For me, If the drones don't lock and maintain a solid sound,
then any set of pipes is useless. If the chanter is dull, flat
and unbalanced, then that chanter is useless.(shite)
> These people won't be disappointed with the sound
> and performance of the Heritage.
That remains to be seen. Let Kron stand on the boards and
in the ranks of the top pipe bands in the World and prove
that they are a worthy pipe maker. Until then, they are just
a couple of guys that can make pretty pipes.
Pretty pipes don't win contests!
END OF STORY!
It accepted a range of reeds without
> difficulty or incident and delivered the goods. The sound is "Henderson"
> and very good "Henderson" at that. I did note that the bass drone has been
> modified from the original Henderson specifications to allow the drone to
> tune in a more extended position.
That's absolute rubbish Ron and you of al people should know better!
A bass drone that's tuning high up by the hemp line is prone
to double toning. That's a major defect if anything, a result
of poor design.
You'll notice that most Henderson bass
> drones tune about two fingers from the top projecting mount on the bottom
> section. The Heritage is inclined to tune just below the hemp line.
Again, any good pipe maker knows where a bass drone should tune!
Sorry to Rip you apart on this Ron old boy, but I fail to see why
you think that this is an advantage?
> Is the Heritage the "right" bagpipe for everyone? The answer is "no" for
> any number of reasons, both real and imagined. But I believe that it should
> be a consideration and an important basis for comparison.
Hey all they can do is try it, if they don't like the pipe they can
always resell it!
> Everyone has heard me speak highly of both Dunbar and MacLellan drones, and
> I will continue to do so. Both are excellent bagpipes. I'm happy to add
> the Heritage to that short list of excellent bagpipes.
Well Dunbar has never had a good chanter, MacLellan hasn't got one
to speak of and Yet Jerry Gibson is not on your list??????
Name me one other maker that has good sounding drones and
a good sounding chanter? That has to say something of a
pipe makers ability to make a good instrument!
> Ah, no, I don't sell Kron bagpipes but I would be more than happy to answer
> any of your questions or to direct you to someone who does!
>
> Ringo
Don't bother, we are already tooooooo aware of who to buy
their kron pipes from! Not that this is anything personal Ron,
but I've had my fill of reading about Kron bagpipes on this NG.
Give us all a break!
John Mitchell
http://www.geocities.com/macmitchell
Richard Mao
Boy, do I have some trepidation about creating a response/addendum to one of my
"piping god's" postings...
But here goes...
I, too, have my hands on a Kron Heritage set of pipes...and one of the Medallist
chanters (some of you know that ... if/when I have a student I trust... who will
be ready for the pipes .... I will buy the pipes first as much as a couple of
months in advance... and have a lot of fun playing, adjusting, and forming my
own opinion on the various makers of pipes... this also allows me to hand over a
well set up set of pipes to my student [and, on net, eventually, it doesn't cost
me that much]... [ e.g. 2 sets of MacLellans, 2 sets of Krons, a Gibson (used),
3 sets of Crislers .. both delrin and abw, 3 sets of Kintails (1987s), Booth,
Drumran, 2 sets of Dunbar polys... and others ]
Let me say.... to the newbies looking to buy a set of pipes... all of the top
name pipe makers today (notice I did not claim ALL of the pipe makers) are
putting out a good drone product... both craftsmanship-wise and sound-wise (with
the right well-adjusted drone reeds of course)... so if you are trying to
evaluate two sets of pipes on the same criteria/sliding scale... one is not
necessarily BETTER than another ... just different... and must be matched up
with a resonating chanter/chanter reed combo)... you almost can't make a mistake
... unless you try to cheap it out....and try to get something great for
nothing... In my and my student's joint choosing of makers above... I try to
match the student's enthusiasm/potential usages/price range... to the right
maker and model and ability-to-deliver time frame.
Now... on to my comments on the Heritage... I agree with what Ron says... with
these addendums... make sure one of the sets of drone reeds you try out is a
good set of matched/stabilized cane drone reeds.... once set up well.....this is
ground zero... the standard against which all of the synthetics have to be
compared... and which, at least, my set of Heritages seem to EXCEL at (of
course, it helps that my instructor who is helping me evaluate is Iain Macey,
the local friendly helpful resident Cane Reed GOD)... and second.... (which I
intend to do) give the pipes/drones a couple of months of playing to mellow out
and sound better (just like when you buy a new wine in Napa Valley based on
current taste and potential and store it for a couple of years to
mellow...except you need to play the pipes....aargh, so much for that
analogy)....
Next on my current experience with the Medallist ABW chanter...Wow...I am
hijacking this chanter and my student will either have to "suffer" with one of
the multitude of other top of the line ABW/solo chanters I've bought to try out
(e.g. Naill, Shepherd, Gibson ABW etc) or we'll buy another Medallist.... Oh,
yes, there might be a wee bit of tweaking carving yet to be done (only after
I've tried other makes of chanter reeds) but even now the pitch/scale of the
notes on this chanter... some of the Notes!!!! really reverberate with the
drones.... and the chanter is remarkably bright and balanced volume-wise high vs
low hand with the relatively easy chanter reeds I tend to favor...
Perspective? My current standard of sound comes from my set of solo pipes, a
1920 set of Hendersons with a lower-than-the-Medallist pitched Naill (great
sound)...sounding world class with a set of cane drones but which have a set of
Mark Lee Rockets... whose still great sound and reliability for my type of
performance needs (grade iv aspiring to iii and a lot of solo gigs) outweigh the
marginal sound difference/quality of cane.. Would I prefer the Heritage over
the old Hendersons (which unfortunately have some cracks, albeit excellently
repaired)... waitabit newzat'leven.....
Sorry if this seems a bit chatty...and please realize I could also tell my
positive experiences with other makers... so take it as a personal experience
for what it's worth..
Cheers
Think of your friends as the FAMILY you would have CHOSEN to surround yourself
with… paraphrase Mercedes Lackey
Richard Mao, The Peking Piper ( Pekin...@mao.org )
Ron Bowen wrote:
> Well, folks. I have recently acquired a Kron Heritage bagpipe and I'm happy
> to report that they do indeed stand up to close scrutiny.
<snipped>
Chris Hamilton
wrote:
First of all, I'm not here to defend or attack Brand X or Brand Y or
Brand Z ... I'm here to dispute why you must attack Ron.
The guy acquired a nice set of pipes, which I had my eye on as well
(I've played that pipe before and it's a killah), and you jump all
over him. There was nothing negative in Ron's post, why should you
toss in the negative?
Ron has often gone on this NG and praised various pipes that he's
acquired, old and new, regardless of brand. Why should he be stifled
now?
>That's absolute rubbish Ron and you of al people should know better!
>A bass drone that's tuning high up by the hemp line is prone
>to double toning. That's a major defect if anything, a result
>of poor design.
Well, I recall bands of yore having special bass bottoms made for a
deeper sound and higher tuning position. Sinclair seemed to specialize
in this at one time, and I believe the Strathclyde Police of the glory
years were kitted out as such.
I agree that the lower-tuning drones tend to start better. But design
defect?
> You'll notice that most Henderson bass
>> drones tune about two fingers from the top projecting mount on the bottom
>> section. The Heritage is inclined to tune just below the hemp line.
>
>Again, any good pipe maker knows where a bass drone should tune!
>Sorry to Rip you apart on this Ron old boy, but I fail to see why
>you think that this is an advantage?
Again, depth of sound. The same principle that applies to tenor drones
tuning higher up on the pins.
>Well Dunbar has never had a good chanter, MacLellan hasn't got one
>to speak of and Yet Jerry Gibson is not on your list??????
Dunbar never had a good chanter? I've got tapes of the Clan MacFarlane
putting out some Grade One sound in the 1980s with Dunbar-Eller poly
chanters. Not maybe their best sound ever, but respectable. I'll be
glad to post them ...
http://www.toneczar.com/max86_clan.mp3
>Name me one other maker that has good sounding drones and
>a good sounding chanter? That has to say something of a
>pipe makers ability to make a good instrument!
Plenty! Sinclair? Naill? Soutar? MacLellan? Kron? Gibson? There's a
plethora ... more than ever before.
Ron Bowen
Astor's tossing back the Guinness and throwing peanut shells on the floor.
You always make me chuckle.
I generally try to be very objective when commenting on the NG. I always
leave the door open more than just a crack. I don't for a minute believe
that I am the definitive voice for anything, other than my own opinion. I'm
more comfortable teaching people how to fish than having to catch the fish
for them, if you get my drift. What someone considers the best bagpipe for
them matters not to me. I trust people to take a measured approach and to
make the decision that's right for them. I think that it's more helpful,
however, when you're able to point out tangible differences rather than just
say something is "rubbish" as is so often the case here.
Just to challenge your thinking on a couple of points.
First the drones "if the drones don't lock and maintain a solid sound" is
only part of what you should be looking for. I've heard plenty of drones
that stayed in tune that didn't appeal to me. I prefer tenors that are
bold, sweet and have a "ring" to them. I prefer the bass to be deep, rich,
and warm. Together they create a wall of sound. The only way to understand
this is to experience it. Play lots of pipes and pay attention to the
sounds. You won't learn "tone" here. You'll only learn "about" tone.
People have to get out there and learn for themselves!
Next the chanter "If the chanter is dull, flat and unbalanced, then that
chanter is useless.(shite)" Well, most of the old Sinclair chanters that we
used for the past few years at Niagara would probably have been called
"dull, flat, and unbalanced" prior to the serious modification that we
imposed upon them. Maybe there's more to this chanter thing, too. What
about projection and harmonics? Nothing on the market compares to the top
hand strength of a Sinclair or the "ring" that you get off a good one. Far
from useless, I'd say.
"pretty pipes don't win contests" You're right! Neither do ugly pipes!
But good pipes do and there are some very good pipes being made out there
today. Some makers are going the extra distance to put more detail and
workmanship into their products. Did you know that Dunbar threads all their
imitation ivory fittings? Kron goes the extra distance of threading their
metal ferrules too. I think that consumers should understand that not all
pipes are created equally. Then they can make the buying decision that's
right for them.
The sound "remains to be seen." You shouldn't take my word for it, John.
The best way is to get your hands on a set and play them. Better yet, get a
set of old Lawrie drones, Henderson, and a few others and spend the day
playing and listening.
"Bass drone tuning high up by the hemp line" I never said that, you big
dumb goof! Opps! Sorry, John. I thought we were having a private chat
here. I said that it had been modified to allow it to tune in a more
extended position. This is no big secret. The bottom section bore on old
Henderson and Lawrie drones tended to be a bit big, causing the bass to tune
low on the pin. Some of the very old Henderson pipes that I've played
wanted to growl in that position, too. Remedy? I put a sleeve in or
swapped out the long joint for a Sinclair long joint which had a narrower
bore. We did this in the Clan all the time. Jack Dunbar built replacement
pieces for several of the Clan players. Joe Rennix used to play one. I'm
surprised that you didn't know about this.
Dunbar never had a good chanter? Bill Livingstone won his first Gold Medal
playing a Dunbar chanter. Barry Ewen played one when he was in the Frasers,
right next to all those Sinclair chanters, and nobody ever knew. And to top
it all off, just last year you came on this NG and said that Dunbar's new
chanter was excellent! Shame on you, John. Get your foot out of your mouth
and pay attention!
"making the list" John, there are other good bagpipes out there. Some
sound better than others. Some are better made than others. You can rank
them any way you want. These particular bagpipes make the top of my list
for the reasons that I've mentioned and written about. You might have a
different list. Your reasons might be different than mine. That's fine
with me! I'm good with it. Put whoever you want on your list, but don't
tell me who to put on my list.
Well, enough of all this. I've had fun. You take care out there, John.
Hope to see you next summer. Save your money because you're buying!
Ringo
Dennis McC
Well said Chris. It amazes me how people will fight over brands of pipes!
Hey, we play the best instrument in the world! I dont' care if it is Naill,
Kron, or Gibson. They are all great sounding pipes! To each his own! I
prefer to live and let live!
Take care, Dennis
In article <o89lvtofaler9kquu...@4ax.com>, ch...@toneczar.com
wrote:
Bill
Gee John, you sound an awful lot like a guy who has NEVER EVEN SEEN a set of
Kron Heritage Bagpipes, or even heard a Kron Medalist chanter. So what
gives? Did your gibslops fall apart again?
"JOHN MITCHELL" <sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:459fa11f.01112...@posting.google.com...
Bill
the new chanter, and just like years ago he has his mind made up without
ever hearing them.
Everyone hear knows Ringo is an upfront, honest, and fair person, who gives
opinions based on facts, not on how he feels about Dave Atherton.
"Chris Hamilton" <tone...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:o89lvtofaler9kquu...@4ax.com...
Patrick Piper
> to double toning. That's a major defect if anything, a result
> of poor design.
Kinda of like my Gibsons when I had to have a special bass drone reed made
for it. But, then it wasn't quite up on the hemp line. Is that what
you're talking about John?
> Hey all they can do is try it, if they don't like the pipe they can
> always resell it!
Then why not give it a try, John?
> Well Dunbar has never had a good chanter, MacLellan hasn't got one
> to speak of and Yet Jerry Gibson is not on your list??????
Is a Gibson chanter better or worse sounding with the extra bit of AB glued
onto the bell? If it's better, then I'm hang'n onto mine.
Don't be switching out your tenor drone tops for mine when you get them in
the mail.
Pat
Bill
Gee John, you sound an awful lot like a guy who has NEVER EVEN SEEN a set of
Kron Heritage Bagpipes, or even heard a Kron Medalist chanter. So what
gives? Did your gibslops fall apart again?
"JOHN MITCHELL" <sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:459fa11f.01112...@posting.google.com...
Ron Bowen
know this by words written here, but John is just a big lovable guy who
wants to have a beer and a few laughs. John wouldn't hurt a bug, but he
might step on a few tomatos without meaning to. ; )
Dennis McC
Ron,
I read with interest your evaluation of the Kron Heritage pipes. I just
received my Kron Heritage pipes and medallist chanter from the McGillivrays
about a week and a half ago. I was eager to take them to my instructor
because he played a set of 1940 vintage Hendersons for two years.
Anyway, I met with my instructor for two hours the other day. His
evaluation of the Heritage pipe was that it sounded very much like Henderson.
He added, however, that the drones projected better (clearer) than the set of
Hendersons he used to play. He told me that this was a very good attribute.
The drones were rock solid and he stated that they were a fantastic pipe (this
is from a guy who is a solid Naill man). Concerning the medallist chanter, he
commented that the chanter projected very well and was very balanced. In
fact, he stated that he was so impressed with the chanter, he was considering
purchasing the Kron Medallist instead of the Naill blackwood for solo (grade
1) competition this summer. FYI, I am using rocket reeds in the drones and a
Macphee chanter reed that was set up by Jim McGillivray (thanks, Jim).
As far as the rocket reeds, my instructor stated that they were "virtually
indistinguishable from cane." My instructor also experimented with a
ezee drone inverted bass tongue reed. He removed the rocket bass drone reed
and inserted the ezee drone. There was a subtle difference that even I could
hear. I can only describe it this way...the ezee drone bass reed seemed to be
a little more (just slightly) muffled than the rocket bass drone reed (if that
makes sense). Anyway, it was fun to experiment and get his evaluation.
Thanks for your post. It was very informative.
Respectfully, Dennis "Bluebear" McCarthy
In article <r0kK7.6209$i61.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Ron Bowen"
Ron Bowen
Here's something to think about. I get all sorts of people emailing me
about this or that purchased off of EBAY. Well, a $200 bagpipe is a great
wall decoration but a lousy musical instrument. Then you have the $1,000
problems. "I bought this pipe and the parts don't match." or "It split all
to hell on me." and then you get people who buy a new set of "authentic
bagpipes made in Scotland" and the ferrules are falling off, or the parts
are twisted, or whatever.
As far as the sound is concerned, you're absolutely right. Less than a
legion of people can really distinquish between a "common" or "ordinary"
set of drones and a superior set.
Why all the fuss? Damn good question. Maybe there's an element of
insecurity floating around out there.
Ringo
Dennis McC
Ron,
Thanks for the clarification. I realized that in my first email when I
commented that "they all sound great" could have been taken to mean all pipes.
I was referring to the pipes references in the post (Naill, Gibson, and Kron)
because it seems to me that a lot of the hot debates are centered around these
pipes. I, for one, can not see why because I think all three are excellent
pipes and just because I chose the Kron Heritage as my life pipes, this should
should not cause the Guiness to go sour for another piper who prefers another
brand of pipe! And I agree....my instructor would kill me if I ever showed up
with a Paki pipe!
Thanks, Dennis :)
In article <lxAK7.10342$i61.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Ron Bowen"
Bill
"Patrick Piper" <ppi...@new.rr.com> wrote in message
news:7jAK7.18816$3s2.1...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
> "JOHN MITCHELL" <sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:459fa11f.01112...@posting.google.com...
> > A bass drone that's tuning high up by the hemp line is prone
> > to double toning. That's a major defect if anything, a result
> > of poor design.
>
> Kinda of like my Gibsons when I had to have a special bass drone reed made
> for it. But, then it wasn't quite up on the hemp line. Is that what
> you're talking about John?
>
Well he does seem rather "well-schooled" on this problem.
> > Hey all they can do is try it, if they don't like the pipe they can
> > always resell it!
>
> Then why not give it a try, John?>
Yes john, you'll get the whole of $200 on ebay for them (where Pakis sell
for $400 or more)
>
>
> > Well Dunbar has never had a good chanter, MacLellan hasn't got one
> > to speak of and Yet Jerry Gibson is not on your list??????
>
> Is a Gibson chanter better or worse sounding with the extra bit of AB
glued
> onto the bell? If it's better, then I'm hang'n onto mine.
Well more wood means it will take longer for the cracks to get all the way
through, so it must be good.
> Don't be switching out your tenor drone tops for mine when you get them in
> the mail.
>
> Pat
LOLOLOL
Royce Lerwick
>Luramao <lur...@webtv.net> wrote:
>> Bill? MrRobotTow? Bill, did you hijack Ringo's email address too?
>> Bill is this you writing this?
>
>According to the headers, the message came from a dialup in St
>Catherine's, so I'd say it's probably genuine.
It reads like Ron. And by the way, I've got another shot of the
glued-on multi-piece Gibson pipe chanter assembly (the one that
doesn't exist) up at royceworld.
Royce
http://royceworld.dyndns.org:9000/
Brian Boru Irish Pipe Band
Zetland Pipes, other stuff to see and hear.
Home of "Tekno Train" and "Groove Hills"
Chris Hamilton
And he might get a few hurled at him too ;-) Not by me, mind you -
I'll just share my Miller Lite with him.
John, I'M going to be at Fort Erie this year again. If you're still in
California, I'll expect a six-pack airfreighted to my hotel room.
Chris Hamilton
wrote:
>That's absolute rubbish Ron and you of al people should know better!
>A bass drone that's tuning high up by the hemp line is prone
>to double toning. That's a major defect if anything, a result
>of poor design.
>Again, any good pipe maker knows where a bass drone should tune!
>Sorry to Rip you apart on this Ron old boy, but I fail to see why
>you think that this is an advantage?
I thought this seemed odd, given the many sets of Gibsons I've had the
pleasure of playing, hearing, and tuning in my years, so I checked
Jerry's web page, and lo if you click on Bagpipes, and check out the
photos, the bass drone bottoms are sure high on the slide.
Please note, I'm not saying anything negative here about the pipe -
always a good sounding pipe - I'm saying that the photos are in direct
contradiction to what was said above.
KZHarrison
>From: "Ron Bowen" ron_...@sympatico.ca
>Date: 11/20/2001 2:04 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <wmAK7.10300$i61.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>
LOL
You must know him well! :-)
Ken
JOHN MITCHELL
> Hey, John. Good to chat with you, although I'd prefer we were at Jack
> Astor's tossing back the Guinness and throwing peanut shells on the floor.
> You always make me chuckle.
LOL! ARrrrr you scurvy dog!
Did you really think for a minute that I would allow you of all people
to come
on this NG and sing the praises of Kron?
You knew full well that I'd have to rip right into yae! ;-)
Hope the chuckle is worth it!
OK ald yin, lets talk about your old age and your failing hearing!
Those are about the finest set of painted ears I've ever seen on you,
nice job!
Kron with tone, you must be daft man!
> I generally try to be very objective when commenting on the NG. I always
> leave the door open more than just a crack.
A crack? A bloody gale is blowing though the doorway here!
> Just to challenge your thinking on a couple of points.
>
> First the drones "if the drones don't lock and maintain a solid sound" is
> only part of what you should be looking for. I've heard plenty of drones
> that stayed in tune that didn't appeal to me.
Agreed! I've heard some of the best pipers in the world play, but
their
pipes just lacked a richness to their sound. Well tuned, but dull!
Don Bradford once said, "the power of the drones comes from the Bass".
If you can't get a good blend with the tenors and the bass, then the
drones oare bloddy useless! (Shite)
> sounds. You won't learn "tone" here. You'll only learn "about" tone.
> People have to get out there and learn for themselves!
Agreed. You can read all the hype on this NG about a certain brand,
but
go to a good recital or professional contest to hear the real
difference.
If you want to hear a well setup set of Gibsons, listen to Gregg
Abbott's setup. He does many of the workshops around the Midwest and
has blown
away alot of the other instructor's setups at these workshop recitals.
The so-called hype pipes paled in comparison to Gregg's setup!
> Next the chanter "If the chanter is dull, flat and unbalanced, then that
> chanter is useless.(shite)" Well, most of the old Sinclair chanters that we
> used for the past few years at Niagara would probably have been called
> "dull, flat, and unbalanced" prior to the serious modification that we
> imposed upon them.
Oh come on Ron, does everybody really have to go thru the massive
reconstruction process that you have to do with a Sinclair?
If you modify a chanter that heavy, then it's not a Sinclair anymore!
Most people just need a chanter that they can get off the shelf and
get a decent sound out of it. A Gibson chanter does that very well!
I did this with my Gibson when I helped to setup the Niagara band when
I was
there. The Gibson blended so well, nobody even took notice, but you
can
ask Peter MacKenzie about that!
> "pretty pipes don't win contests" You're right! Neither do ugly pipes!
What about ugly pipers, you guys seem to do allright! :-)
> But good pipes do and there are some very good pipes being made out there
> today. Some makers are going the extra distance to put more detail and
> workmanship into their products. Did you know that Dunbar threads all their
> imitation ivory fittings?
No never knew that! Maybe we need another 4 years of threads to remind
us all!
> The sound "remains to be seen." You shouldn't take my word for it, John.
> The best way is to get your hands on a set and play them. Better yet, get a
> set of old Lawrie drones, Henderson, and a few others and spend the day
> playing and listening.
Yep, played those makes for years, I'll stick with my Gibsons!
You can hear these at http://www.geocities.com/macmitchell
Even put up some new picks of my pipes! :-)
> "Bass drone tuning high up by the hemp line" I never said that, you big
> dumb goof! Opps! Sorry, John. I thought we were having a private chat
> here.
OK listen here you big cluster of sausage fingers! Oops Kids present!
> bore. We did this in the Clan all the time. Jack Dunbar built replacement
> pieces for several of the Clan players. Joe Rennix used to play one. I'm
> surprised that you didn't know about this.
Well, I never payed much attention to the bands we were beating,
didn't figure they had anything to offer in the tone department!
> Dunbar never had a good chanter? Bill Livingstone won his first Gold Medal
> playing a Dunbar chanter. Barry Ewen played one when he was in the Frasers,
> right next to all those Sinclair chanters, and nobody ever knew. And to top
> it all off, just last year you came on this NG and said that Dunbar's new
> chanter was excellent! Shame on you, John. Get your foot out of your mouth
> and pay attention!
Yes, that's right I did say that, but that new chanter wasn't designed
by Dunbar, it was designed by Lindsay Kirkwood and Don Bradford!
Dunbar always had a bad reputation for being a flat chanter!
> with me! I'm good with it. Put whoever you want on your list, but don't
> tell me who to put on my list.
I hope I'm not off this years Christmas card list! Some people I've
got
on my list that you might want to add is Bat Girl and Cat woman! LOL
> Well, enough of all this. I've had fun.
Likewise I'm sure!
You take care out there, John.
> Hope to see you next summer. Save your money because you're buying!
I've got $25 American Dollars, round are on me all night at Maxville!
John Blackbeard
KZHarrison
>Date: 11/20/2001 9:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
>OK ald yin, lets talk about your old age and your failing hearing!
>Those are about the finest set of painted ears I've ever seen on you,
>nice job!
You two sure have an uncanny sense fo humor!
What's with painted ears, I don't understand?
Ken
Ron Bowen
different sounds. I've never been a big fan of the "synthetic" sound,
especially in a bass drone. You might want to try a cane bass and see what
you think.
Y'know, Dennis. When I grew up in Virginia, we used to turn the coonhounds
loose at night. One night Old Speed would be the lead dog. The next night
it might be Dixie or Blue. They all got fed and they all were loved. It's
funny how those early lessons seem to spill over into other areas.
Ringo
Bill
"KZHarrison" <kzhar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011120230713...@mb-fg.aol.com...
Ron Bowen
me.
Truth be known, the best use of John's ears is to keep his hat from falling
down over his eyes!
All that aside, John was a pleasure to play pipes with in NRP. It's funny
how you spend 20 years competing against someone and then wake up one day to
find him standing next to you in the circle. He's not without the odd wart,
and I could take him to task on a number of issues, but then he hasn't shown
me that he's open to other than what he currently believes to be the truth,
so any efforts would be mostly wasted.
Still, that doesn't make him a bad guy. : )
Ringo
Ron Bowen
so heated up when talking about makes of pipes. That is a waste of your
substantial talent, time, and energy, in my opinion. You appear to be very
closed-minded on the topic, which is interesting..... You're not a
shareholder or investor, are you?
John, this place is supposed to be about sharing and learning. It's not
about flames or insults (other than in jest : ) or even about changing
other's opinions. If someone believes that XYZ is the bagpipe for them,
fill yer boots.
Good luck out there in Sunny California, John. We're all watching and
expecting big things.
Ringo
Dennis McC
Kinda like different brands of hunting rifles getting the job done. I've
taken down elk with a high powered rifle and a black powder rifle! Both put
meat on the table! Of course, they each put out a diffent tone when the
hammer dropped, but this is another debate!!!
Dennis :)
Bill
before I dropped the bitch. Still got her head mounted over the fireplace.
"Dennis McC" <blue...@centurytel.net> wrote in message
news:ffSK7.2907$2S2.1...@feed.centurytel.net...
Jason Myers
> I thought this seemed odd, given the many sets of Gibsons I've had the
> pleasure of playing, hearing, and tuning in my years, so I checked
> Jerry's web page, and lo if you click on Bagpipes, and check out the
> photos, the bass drone bottoms are sure high on the slide.
Where are those photos?
TIA Jason
Jason Myers
> Ken, he's saying that my ears aren't real. That somebody painted them on
> me.
>
> Truth be known, the best use of John's ears is to keep his hat from
falling
> down over his eyes!
You're a very funny man, I enjoy your sense of humor!
> All that aside, John was a pleasure to play pipes with in NRP.
According to reports on this news group, John Mitchell was thrown out of
NRP.
Your statement contradicts the information I have read about John Mitchell
on this newsgroup. I was wondering why you would make such a statement?
It's funny
> how you spend 20 years competing against someone and then wake up one day
to
> find him standing next to you in the circle. He's not without the odd
wart,
> and I could take him to task on a number of issues, but then he hasn't
shown
> me that he's open to other than what he currently believes to be the
truth,
> so any efforts would be mostly wasted.
I would draw the same conclusion, based on the imformation he has posted
on this newsgroup. I thought that all pipers were always on the look out for
new and improved products to help them get an edge on the competition.
I don't understand his thinking in regards to investigating new pipes
on the market. His pipes better be as good sounding as he claims.
> Still, that doesn't make him a bad guy. : )
>
> Ringo
He is entitled to his opinion, but his personality on this newsgroup would
not
indicate that he is anything other than what he projects. It is possible to
have a hard line view and still be as nice guy.
Jason
Jason Myers
>
> Well said Chris. It amazes me how people will fight over brands of pipes!
> Hey, we play the best instrument in the world! I dont' care if it is
Naill,
> Kron, or Gibson. They are all great sounding pipes! To each his own! I
> prefer to live and let live!
> Take care, Dennis
This is how I feel too and I Thank you for saying this!
Jason Myers
Bpiper3981
>Date: 11/20/2001 12:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20011120034100...@mb-dh.aol.com>
>
>>Interesting post.......
>>
>>Just wondering, did you get a Medallist chanter with it? If so, what
>>did you think of it?
>
>Why ask a great Gr1 player like Bowen when you could ask a gr4 drop-out piper
>like speed, who has never seen or heard The Kron Heritage edition bagpipe?
><sarcasm included>
>
>Murph
>
Hey Murph would you bet your life on that and I have droped out of grade 4 to
grade 3 thank you for asking.
Ron Bowen
On John leaving NRP... I make the statement because I was there. John left
of his own accord and he left friends behind. I'm not defending John's
every action or word here. I'm just stating the facts as they relate to his
leaving NRP.
Ringo
"Jason Myers" <harc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:tZTK7.199616$W8.75...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Chris Hamilton
On the main menu, click the "Bagpipes" button on the right hand side,
and there are a number of pipe photos on the next page.
Royce Lerwick
<tone...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>On 20 Nov 2001 09:27:17 -0800, sunn...@hotmail.com (JOHN MITCHELL)
>wrote:
>
>>That's absolute rubbish Ron and you of al people should know better!
>>A bass drone that's tuning high up by the hemp line is prone
>>to double toning. That's a major defect if anything, a result
>>of poor design.
This is hilarious. As a concept John has accepted the standard "fix"
for a design problem that has haunted bass drones since the invention
of the newer high-pitched chanters as a basic engineering feature. The
reality is, when the high pitched chanters started coming in, bass
drone reeds got very very short and stubby, and finally even the lower
section had to be shortened to insure a good strike-in. Normally this
doesn't have any negative effect on the tone, within certain limits.
The limit being, when the slide gets too closed--and this will vary
from drone to drone, maker to maker--the bass takes on a very coarse
growl. The farther out the slide can be tuned with a good strike in
the smoother the tone. So to some extent you can customize the
presence of your bass drone by reeding it up to either tune short or
long--short for more gutsy tone, long for a mellower tone. But again,
in recent years this has been further limited in the even higher pitch
of the recent chanters, meaning more often than not these days you
have no such margin left for tonal considerations, and you're stuck
with where that center slide with both strike in, and not growl.
>
>>Again, any good pipe maker knows where a bass drone should tune!
>>Sorry to Rip you apart on this Ron old boy, but I fail to see why
>>you think that this is an advantage?
I think your first sentence pretty much says it all, and I'd suggest
you find a good pipe maker with some knowledge of the history and the
physics behind the instrument in future, and have him explain it to
you. What you presume here, is that any "good" pipe maker would
continue to ignorantly duplicate obsolete positioning parameters
evolved to correct a problem in the original dimensions of the bore
geometry, which was never originally intended to tune or strike in as
high as moder pipe chanters now routinely play.
In terms of "advantage" I think it was Bruce Gandy a few years back I
heard at Macalester College in St. Paul Minnesota, playing solo pipes
with reeds boasted to be cane, who's bass drone was tuned well out on
both pins. Not coincidentally, he did not effect a tolerable strike-in
the entire evening, nor was he particularly trying for one. The bass
howled annoyingly each and every time and most of the time he would
pop it out with a finger. This of course, is totally irrelevant to
solo playing and so I'd imagine the positioning was deliberate in
order to achieve the very very warm sound he was getting.
(Though he did do the traditional re-tune thing with the drones all
night long, and it had been a very long time, since the start of the
synth-drone era, that I had pause to remember those days when that
much retuning was considered typical.)
Royce
>
>I thought this seemed odd, given the many sets of Gibsons I've had the
>pleasure of playing, hearing, and tuning in my years, so I checked
>Jerry's web page, and lo if you click on Bagpipes, and check out the
>photos, the bass drone bottoms are sure high on the slide.
>
>Please note, I'm not saying anything negative here about the pipe -
>always a good sounding pipe - I'm saying that the photos are in direct
>contradiction to what was said above.
I believe Jerry himself stated once during the discussions about
whether he'd copied Colin MacLellan's MacDougall/Glens, that his
design was based on the older pipes but there were updates or
innovations. I also believe I've heard other Gibson proponents
lecturing on this very matter of bass drone positioning relative to
the modern pitch, and believe Jerry has made some adjustment in this
for the modern pitch.
Royce
http://royceworld.dyndns.org:9000/
Brian Boru Irish Pipe Band
Zetland Pipes, other stuff to see and hear.
Home of "Tekno Train" and "Groove Hills"
Hear "MacWho II--Wallace Rides Again."
JOHN MITCHELL
> > What makes you such the all seeing authority on every aspect of piping?
>
> Hey, John! So, should I keep my two piece Gibson chanter or not?
>
> Pat
Why not, you don't know how to play anyways!
Bpiper3981
oxymoran.
Bill
So what excuse/defense will you use when Ringo, or Chris Hamilton, or Jim
M., or (insert many more) disagree with you? Oh wait! They already did (you
can feel the big "ignore him" coming up, can't you guys? lol) disagree with
you, although ever so diplomatically. You can use the "you can't play like
me" defense on Pat or I, but it looses credibility when big names like that
do it. Keep on dreaming John, you seem to be getting better at it every day.
JOHN MITCHELL
> >BTW if your bass mid section is tuning up on the hemp line,
> >then that's just wrong. Ask any Open player!
>
> On the hemp line, yeah true. I was referrring to "up", not THAT high.
>
> Chris
This what I was refering too:
"Ron Bowen" <ron_...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> tune in a more extended position. You'll notice that most Henderson bass
> drones tune about two fingers from the top projecting mount on the bottom
> section. The Heritage is inclined to tune *****just below the hemp
line.*******
That's for too high and it will cause the bass to double tone!
Is there anybody that disagrees with this and why have we all been taught
for
years now that the optimum position to tune a bass mid section is 1 inch
above
the projected mount.
I didn't invent this notion, what's wrong with this picture?
Because Kron Bass drones tune around the hemp line, it's suddenly OK????????
What do I care, if you want to do that be my guest!
JM
Bpiper3981
plane."LOL
Kron
>
> "Bass drone tuning high up by the hemp line" I never said that, you big
> dumb goof! Opps! Sorry, John. I thought we were having a private chat
> extended position. This is no big secret. The bottom section bore on old
> Henderson and Lawrie drones tended to be a bit big, causing the bass to
tune
> low on the pin. Some of the very old Henderson pipes that I've played
> wanted to growl in that position, too. Remedy? I put a sleeve in or
> swapped out the long joint for a Sinclair long joint which had a narrower
> bore. We did this in the Clan all the time. Jack Dunbar built
replacement
> pieces for several of the Clan players. Joe Rennix used to play one. I'm
> surprised that you didn't know about this.
>
Swapping out the bass bottom on Hendersons is common all over. Pipe Major
Angus had George Kilgour take the fitments off his bottom joint and make a
small-bored replacement with the original pieces. The small bore gives the
drone a richer sound in addition.
Bill
"Bpiper3981" <bpipe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011122022028...@mb-cf.aol.com...
> Now that is an
> oxymoran.
>
Wisdom from the head-moran himself?
AWWW SHIT GLARY, YOU SPELLED IT WRONG!!!!!!!!
Bill
> Well if I am JM's parrot than you are Royces little Tatoo," the plane
Royce the
> plane."LOL
Well if he got a tattoo after those brief few moments we shared, it's not my
fault I'm so loveable.
AWWW SHIT GLARY, YOU SPELLED TATTOO WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bpiper3981
happened to that block LOLOLO.
Bpiper3981
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>If you want to hear a well setup set of Gibsons, listen to Gregg
>Abbott's setup.
I believe that's Greg with one "G." And I also believe he's been
phoning all over North America apologising for whoever stole his name
and made all those last posts...the ones with the two "G's" in "Greg."
>Oh come on Ron, does everybody really have to go thru the massive
>reconstruction process that you have to do with a Sinclair?
Proof we don't disagree on everything.
>If you modify a chanter that heavy, then it's not a Sinclair anymore!
More proof we don't disagree on everything.
>Most people just need a chanter that they can get off the shelf and
>get a decent sound out of it. A Gibson chanter does that very well!
I remember back when I was the only one saying that here. That was
before I established my massive Kron-based piping empire and went on
Charlie's payroll.
>I did this with my Gibson when I helped to setup the Niagara band when
>I was
>there. The Gibson blended so well, nobody even took notice, but you
>can
>ask Peter MacKenzie about that!
Except when you came on the NG and were originally telling those
stories, you have most of us assuming you were at least the PS and
"tone man" and you were the guy setting up the band.
>> Dunbar never had a good chanter? Bill Livingstone won his first Gold Medal
>> playing a Dunbar chanter. Barry Ewen played one when he was in the Frasers,
>> right next to all those Sinclair chanters, and nobody ever knew. And to top
>> it all off, just last year you came on this NG and said that Dunbar's new
>> chanter was excellent! Shame on you, John. Get your foot out of your mouth
>> and pay attention!
>
>Yes, that's right I did say that, but that new chanter wasn't designed
>by Dunbar, it was designed by Lindsay Kirkwood and Don Bradford!
>Dunbar always had a bad reputation for being a flat chanter!
Dunbar always had a good reputation for knocking off a good Sinclair.
The problem with that is, nobody actually can stand to listen to a
good Sinclair or copy of same, because they're flat. That's why
everyone carves them up. If Kirkwood and Bradford came in on bringing
the pitch up that's great, but I think a little credit ought to go to
Dunbar.
JOHN MITCHELL
> >
> >TIA Jason
>
> On the main menu, click the "Bagpipes" button on the right hand side,
> and there are a number of pipe photos on the next page.
Thanks Chris, but I'll take it from here! :-)
it's http://www.gibsonpipes.com
Look on the bagpipe page, but I just looked at the page and I an tell you
that the bass drone mid section was pulled up to expose the tuning pin.
The pictures have no relavence to where the bass drone is tuned!
If you look at my set on my webpage, this is where the drones tune!
http://www.geocities.com/macmitchell
Been that way for 11 years now!
JOHN MITCHELL
"Royce Lerwick" <pmle...@mn.mediaone.net> wrote in
> >On 20 Nov 2001 09:27:17 -0800, sunn...@hotmail.com (JOHN MITCHELL)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>That's absolute rubbish Ron and you of al people should know better!
> >>A bass drone that's tuning high up by the hemp line is prone
> >>to double toning. That's a major defect if anything, a result
> >>of poor design.
>
> This is hilarious. As a concept John has accepted the standard "fix"
> for a design problem that has haunted bass drones since the invention
> of the newer high-pitched chanters as a basic engineering feature.
What's halarious is you actually believe all this pish that you print!
What makes you such the all seeing authority on every aspect of piping?
John Mitchell
Just a piper!
JOHN MITCHELL
> wrote:
>
> >If you want to hear a well setup set of Gibsons, listen to Gregg
> >Abbott's setup.
>
> I believe that's Greg with one "G." And I also believe he's been
> phoning all over North America apologising for whoever stole his name
> and made all those last posts...the ones with the two "G's" in "Greg."
You mean that wasn't Greg who told you to Get tae Fuck in German?
How shocking!!!!!! :-)
> >If you modify a chanter that heavy, then it's not a Sinclair anymore!
>
> More proof we don't disagree on everything.
>
> >Most people just need a chanter that they can get off the shelf and
> >get a decent sound out of it. A Gibson chanter does that very well!
>
> I remember back when I was the only one saying that here. That was
> before I established my massive Kron-based piping empire and went on
> Charlie's payroll.
Pull up your first comment on it!
> >I did this with my Gibson when I helped to setup the Niagara band when
> >I was
> >there. The Gibson blended so well, nobody even took notice, but you
> >can
> >ask Peter MacKenzie about that!
>
> Except when you came on the NG and were originally telling those
> stories, you have most of us assuming you were at least the PS and
> "tone man" and you were the guy setting up the band.
I was there, played in the band, held the position of PS and helped
set the band up and establish the tone that it now knows today!
Any other stupid questions?
> >Yes, that's right I did say that, but that new chanter wasn't designed
> >by Dunbar, it was designed by Lindsay Kirkwood and Don Bradford!
> >Dunbar always had a bad reputation for being a flat chanter!
>
> Dunbar always had a good reputation for knocking off a good Sinclair.
> The problem with that is, nobody actually can stand to listen to a
> good Sinclair or copy of same, because they're flat. That's why
> everyone carves them up. If Kirkwood and Bradford came in on bringing
> the pitch up that's great, but I think a little credit ought to go to
> Dunbar.
>
> Royce
Hey Humpty, read again!!!!!!
Dunbar had """""NOTHING""" to do with the design!
Don't try to argue the point! I'll give credit where credit is due, but
Dunbar's
shop was only used to turn out the product and then market it under his
name.
END OF STORY!
JM
Bpiper3981
with your Bull shite , right Royce. Do you really think people have time to
read your long winded shite. Go back and look at yourself in the mirror since
you are in so much love with yourself.
MrRobotTow
Guess the truth is just too hard for you to take John?
Bill Kieth Fenoy
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized
that the Lord doesn't work that way, so I stole one and asked Him to forgive
me.
http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/
MrRobotTow
>with your Bull shite , right Royce. Do you really think people have time to
>read your long winded shite.
Of course in your case, you can't READ that long a post. Your just Mitchells
parrott.
Ron Bowen
the band up and establish the tone that it now knows today!
hmmmm. I could say nothing, but that would be the wrong thing to do.
JOHN! I'M YELLING 'CAUSE I WANT YOU TO HEAR ME! YOU WERE NEVER THE TONE
MAN IN NRP!!!!
By my count, there were/are about 10 or 12 "tone men" in NRP, and any one of
them is capable of setting up the band with a winning sound. We counted up
the aggregate years of experience in the pipe section last year.... I think
it was around 450 years.
And YOU were the NRP tone man. I don't think so.
> > >I did this with my Gibson when I helped to setup the Niagara band when
I was there. The Gibson blended so well, nobody even took notice, but you
can
ask Peter MacKenzie about that!
No, no, no, no, no! Perhaps the California air is making you halucinate!
You only played your Gibson once in the band, which was at the NRP Highland
ball. You arrived late and had forgotten your Sinclair at home. We were in
the midst of setting up the band, after many beverages, and Al spotted your
Gibson. As I recall, Peter thought that it was blending O.K. but Al had you
sit that one out.
>>> Any other stupid questions?
Yeah. Why didn't we hear that great tone out of your last band?
> > >Yes, that's right I did say that, but that new chanter wasn't designed
by Dunbar, it was designed by Lindsay Kirkwood and Don Bradford! Dunbar
always had a bad reputation for being a flat chanter!
What! I can't believe what I'm hearing. But before I respond, let's hear
what else you said.
>>> Dunbar had """""NOTHING""" to do with the design! Don't try to argue
the point! I'll give credit where credit is due, but Dunbar's shop was only
used to turn out the product and then market it under his name.
END OF STORY!
John, what do you mean by "design?" Do you think that Donnie and Lindsay
sat down with their pencils and paper and drew a chanter? I'm going to ask
you to think this through logically. How do you think that Dunbar, or any
other maker, creates a new chanter? Do you think they walk up to Alisdair
Gillies and say "Design me a new chanter"???
I think you should "give credit where credit is due." Taking nothing away
from Lindsay and Donnie, Dunbar deserves way more credit that you're
allowing here.
Ringo
JOHN MITCHELL
> >>> I was there, played in the band, held the position of PS and helped
set
> the band up and establish the tone that it now knows today!
>
>
> hmmmm. I could say nothing, but that would be the wrong thing to do.
>
> JOHN! I'M YELLING 'CAUSE I WANT YOU TO HEAR ME! YOU WERE NEVER THE TONE
> MAN IN NRP!!!!
> By my count, there were/are about 10 or 12 "tone men" in NRP, and any one
of
> them is capable of setting up the band with a winning sound. We counted
up
> the aggregate years of experience in the pipe section last year.... I
think
> it was around 450 years.
Yea, and you couldn't find a properly setup chanter between the lot of them!
Nothing personal against Al Ash, but Al's was always different from
week to week and same held true for alot of the members.
> And YOU were the NRP tone man. I don't think so.
Yea, I Know so pal, who did All always come to to find the sound to setup
with????????
Yous all have a pretty short bloody memory!
You know Ronny Old man, your age is withering away at your frosted brain
cells.
SO much you don't know or have conveniently forgotten!!!!!
Do you remember the first time NRP ever came out at Georgetown in June of
98?
It was their first grade 2 contest and you were playing in a band that
didn't
think much of the NRP at that time. Well youz got a big surprize that day
when
we won it and went on to for the rest of the season to kick your arses!!!!
Do ya think that was luck?
> You only played your Gibson once in the band, which was at the NRP
Highland
> ball. You arrived late and had forgotten your Sinclair at home. We were
in
> the midst of setting up the band, after many beverages, and Al spotted
your
> Gibson. As I recall, Peter thought that it was blending O.K. but Al had
you
> sit that one out.
Again you might have me confused with somebody else as there was only
8 of us the night that had to play at he dam thing! I'm not the only one
that
has played my Gibson in a sea of Sinclairs, Clark Ambercrombie played
his Gibson for years with the 78th's. It's a bloody good chanter and none
of youz can admit it!
> >>> Any other stupid questions?
>
> Yeah. Why didn't we hear that great tone out of your last band?
It was good for what it was! Much more on that later!
> > > >Yes, that's right I did say that, but that new chanter wasn't
designed
> by Dunbar, it was designed by Lindsay Kirkwood and Don Bradford! Dunbar
> always had a bad reputation for being a flat chanter!
>
> What! I can't believe what I'm hearing. But before I respond, let's hear
> what else you said.
>
> >>> Dunbar had """""NOTHING""" to do with the design! Don't try to argue
> the point! I'll give credit where credit is due, but Dunbar's shop was
only
> used to turn out the product and then market it under his name.
> END OF STORY!
>
> John, what do you mean by "design?" Do you think that Donnie and Lindsay
> sat down with their pencils and paper and drew a chanter? I'm going to
ask
> you to think this through logically. How do you think that Dunbar, or any
> other maker, creates a new chanter? Do you think they walk up to Alisdair
> Gillies and say "Design me a new chanter"???
Here's Logic Ron!
1-Previous Dunbar chanter- Useless
2-Lindsay and Donny get involved
3- New chanter-Excellent
4-End of Story
I can tell you this, I was there when it happned and Dunbar has no idea
that he needed to change his chanter. These boys convinced him otherwise
with a hole new design. Dunbar just followed the print specifications.
> I think you should "give credit where credit is due." Taking nothing away
> from Lindsay and Donnie, Dunbar deserves way more credit that you're
> allowing here.
Well somebody had to do the turning and drilling!
Your aways good for a laugh Ron, your no different than the rest of the
piping mob. So predictable!
cheers
JM
Patrick Piper
news:f9XK7.178829$3d2.7...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Hey, John! So, should I keep my two piece Gibson chanter or not?
Pat
MrRobotTow
It sure wasn't due to you setting up the band. Anyone who says Jim M. is tone
deaf is obviously has an axe to grind.
> It's a bloody good chanter and none
>of youz can admit it!
Well, at least they have the only chanter that can theoretically turn itself
from one piece to several.
Chris Hamilton
<sunn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Chris Hamilton" <tone...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message > >
>> >Where are those photos?
>> >
>> >TIA Jason
>>
>> On the main menu, click the "Bagpipes" button on the right hand side,
>> and there are a number of pipe photos on the next page.
>
>Thanks Chris, but I'll take it from here! :-)
>
>it's http://www.gibsonpipes.com
>
>Look on the bagpipe page, but I just looked at the page and I an tell you
>that the bass drone mid section was pulled up to expose the tuning pin.
>The pictures have no relavence to where the bass drone is tuned!
>
>If you look at my set on my webpage, this is where the drones tune!
>http://www.geocities.com/macmitchell
>
>Been that way for 11 years now!
Haven't tuned 'em in 11 years? I want that reed! :->
>JM
>BTW if your bass mid section is tuning up on the hemp line,
>then that's just wrong. Ask any Open player!
On the hemp line, yeah true. I was referrring to "up", not THAT high.
Chris
Patrick Piper
> > Hey, John! So, should I keep my two piece Gibson chanter or not?
> >
> > Pat
>
> Why not, you don't know how to play anyways!
So, you concede the fact that Gibson has put out 2 piece chanters?
Hmmm...very interesting strategy, John. Remind Jerry that I won't be home
this Saturday to receive his phone call.
Pat
Patrick Piper
> That's for too high and it will cause the bass to double tone!
That's funny, because I haven't had even the slightest hint of that
happening with my set. Maybe it's in the "engineering".
> Is there anybody that disagrees with this and why have we all been taught
> for years now that the optimum position to tune a bass mid section is 1
inch
> above the projected mount.
I don't even think Ken Eller ever said that. Except maybe with a problem
bass drone. 1" above the lower mount could also be considered an extreme.
So, should I keep my 2 piece Gibson chanter? You keep ducking the question.
Pat
MrRobotTow
Bill Kieth Fenoy
I am so cool, that sheep count ME before they go to sleep.
http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/
Ron Bowen
of
98? It was their first grade 2 contest and you were playing in a band that
didn't
think much of the NRP at that time. Well youz got a big surprize that day
when we won it and went on to for the rest of the season to kick your
arses!!!! Do ya think that was luck?
Gee, John. The plaque on my wall says "PPBSO 1998 Champion Supreme Grade
2 - Dofasco" and as I recall we beat very good COW, NRP, and Composite bands
at Maxville that year to win back-to-back North American Championships! We
followed that up with an MSR win at Fergus to clinch Champion Supreme.
Wasn't MSR NRP's strong suit that year?
>>> Yea, and you couldn't find a properly setup chanter between the lot of
them!
Nothing personal against Al Ash, but Al's was always different from week to
week and same held true for alot of the members.
Gee, John. We seemed to do O.K. after you left. I also seem to recall two
great piping performances at the worlds in 2000 and 2001. Oh, that's right!
You weren't there!!!!
And go here http://www3.sympatico.ca/ron_bowen to download the cheers 'n
beer contest this year at Altamont. Not much of a sound that day either.
God, if you were only there to set us up!
My recollection of the events of the stated NRP Highland Ball is perfect.
As I also mentioned, Barry Ewen played his Dunbar chanter while in the
Frasers and nobody ever knew. So, now what was your point? Oh, yeah.
Dunbar chanters were flat and "useless" prior to L&D. Maybe in your hands,
my friend.
>>> I can tell you this, I was there when it happned and Dunbar has no idea
that he needed to change his chanter. These boys convinced him otherwise
with a hole new design. Dunbar just followed the print specifications.
This statement is freaking laughable! Dunbar has alway sought to listen to
accomplished pipers in order to improve their chanter. So does every other
maker. I can't tell you the number of people who have provided their
thoughts and ideas on how to improve it. And the silliness! "Let's start
with a block of wood and create a new chanter." or "Jack, can you make a
chanter like this" as he (not-to-be-named)handed over a "modified" Dunbar
chanter with square holes.
>>> Your aways good for a laugh Ron, your no different than the rest of the
piping mob. So predictable!
What the hell is that supposed to mean? Y'know what really bugs me, John?
I'll tell you....a grown man who proports to "know it all" yet can't figure
out that "you're" is the correct contraction for "you are." If you ever
want to be taken seriously, it might be an idea to clean up "your" spelling
and grammar. Just a thought.
Further, don't dump on my bandmates and don't take credit above and beyond
others who contributed as much or more than you did. It ain't nice!
Have a great day in the sun, John. We're freezing up here in the Great
White North. Today is U.S. Thanksgiving and we all have lots to be thankful
for. Let's not forget to think about it!
Ringo
MrRobotTow
JOHN MITCHELL
> 2 - Dofasco" and as I recall we beat very good COW, NRP, and Composite
bands
> at Maxville that year to win back-to-back North American Championships!
Ron, we always get into this with you! I can still remember the many debates
down in the NRP's "Stupid Club" with all present to remind you that the
Dofasco Band wasn't all that great!
Yea, I remember that your band never won Maxville out right! It was one
of those stupid point things where a band could win a contest without
winning any of the catagories. Youz only won it because NRP and
COW cancelled each other out and youz won it by default!
Lets talk about, Georgetown, Cambridge, Barrie and Sarnia, all those
were legitimate games where we beat your band.
My point was, NRP was a nothing band that wasn't expected to do
anything. Do you think the fucking Easter Bunny came along
and granted the band with good tone? Give me some credit!!!!!
We
> followed that up with an MSR win at Fergus to clinch Champion Supreme.
> Wasn't MSR NRP's strong suit that year?
Still is NRP's big suite as round reels and jigs is tough for those old
hands!
What happened this year at the Worlds? Still another 3rd again with MSR's!
> Gee, John. We seemed to do O.K. after you left.
I could mention the hell and disorder that goes on when setting up the band
now,
but is was never that way when I was involved. I've heard too many horror
stories that caused a few members to leave! Don't push me on this point Ron,
but I'll just mention Maxville last year.
I also seem to recall two
> great piping performances at the worlds in 2000 and 2001. Oh, that's
right!
> You weren't there!!!!
I seem to have read that you guys lost the worlds for the 4th year in row!
If youz, really knew what the hell you were doing, you would have won
that contest by now. It didn't take the Prince Charles band or the
Western Australian Police Band this long to win.
It fucking amazes me how you rant on how great the NRP standard is,
I have to remind you that your still only grade 2 and not dominating
the circuit like you should be if youz really knew what you were doing!
> And go here http://www3.sympatico.ca/ron_bowen to download the cheers 'n
> beer contest this year at Altamont. Not much of a sound that day either.
> God, if you were only there to set us up!
Yea, that was a lovely rendition of Clumsy Lover!
> My recollection of the events of the stated NRP Highland Ball is perfect.
Isn't that just priceless, cutting the PS of the band at a social event!
It never happened Ron!
I do remember coming in at 9:00 pm because we weren't scheduled
to play until 9:30 and those events always run late. Yes I missed the
Dinner at 5, but some of us had to work as it was a Friday!
I remember it too well, hence the resignation letter the next day!
> As I also mentioned, Barry Ewen played his Dunbar chanter while in the
> Frasers and nobody ever knew. So, now what was your point? Oh, yeah.
> Dunbar chanters were flat and "useless" prior to L&D. Maybe in your
hands,
> my friend.
Oh buddy, that one really hurt!
Ron you know I can get great tone from a chanter, don't force me to call you
a "sore heed". Sorry, I like Jack, but he wasn't known for his great
chanters!
> >>> I can tell you this, I was there when it happned and Dunbar has no
idea
> that he needed to change his chanter. These boys convinced him otherwise
> with a hole new design. Dunbar just followed the print specifications.
>
> This statement is freaking laughable! Dunbar has alway sought to listen
to
> accomplished pipers in order to improve their chanter. So does every
other
> maker.
Freaking Laughable?????
So why the need for a new chanter if the old one was just fine then?
Case closed!
> >>> Your aways good for a laugh Ron, your no different than the rest of
the
> piping mob. So predictable!
>
> What the hell is that supposed to mean?
It's typical pipe band fashion! A guy can dedicate years to a band,
but the second he leaves that band it's screw him! What did he ever
do for us anyway? Other types of organizations give their members
a going away gift or at least take them out for a beer. In pipe bands,
I have never seen this except for the one time when Davie Curry
retired from the GR1 scene when he left Metro and we had a bash for him.
I'll always remember this about a band when I have to take 8 hours
out of the day to drive to a band practice where too often I was always the
first
one there of only 6 other people that showed up. This included the winter
months too, when people wouldn't even come across town to attend band
practice.
Next time somebody asks me to join a band, it will be "NO thanks!".
> Y'know what really bugs me, John?
> I'll tell you....a grown man who proports to "know it all" yet can't
figure
> out that "you're" is the correct contraction for "you are." If you ever
> want to be taken seriously, it might be an idea to clean up "your"
spelling
> and grammar. Just a thought.
Is that what you think, that I proportally know it all? I just talk from
direct
experience, sorry if that experience comes from 30 years on the gr1 band
scene, but I don't do well with people that only talk about theories.
And the last time I checked, this was a piping forum, not a fucking
spelling bee contest!
> Further, don't dump on my bandmates and don't take credit above and beyond
> others who contributed as much or more than you did. It ain't nice!
Where have I dumped on the band or it's members before, I just told you the
truth
of how it was. Are you telling me that the greater majority of those guys
showed up
with their pipes all going perfectly. Do I need to give you a run down of
each player
and how they blew and what problems they needed to work on.
I can do that if you like?
If you check Jim Tupman's Video of the 2000 Worlds trip, you might notice me
going around and fixing the "PROBLEM" chanters. That was my job!
It ain't nice to not give credit where is credit due, so recognise that fact
had I not
been involved with the band at the time, you might be still playing tunes
like the Black Berry Bush instead of John Morrison and Minnie Hind or
the Gold Ring as they were playing. What about my efforts in helping
the band to produce a CD for their fund raising program.
Youz forget Alot of things!!!!!!!!
> Have a great day in the sun, John. We're freezing up here in the Great
> White North. Today is U.S. Thanksgiving and we all have lots to be
thankful
> for. Let's not forget to think about it!
A real humanitarian touch there old boy! The band has a bunch of good lads
in it and I am thankful to have been involved with the band.
Thanks for the memories, they were fun!
John Mitchell
Ex NRP
MrRobotTow
That'll be the same day pigs fly, hell freezes over, and Spleen learns to
spell.
Ron Bowen
O.K. let's find some common ground here so we can move forward. I'm sure
that most readers are tiring of this already. I know that I am.
John, you were appreciated, but not to the extent that people dropped to one
knee or rushed forward to kiss your ring when you entered a room. You'll
have to get a pointy hat for your pointy head if you want that to happen!
You did make sacrifices to play in the band, but then which one of us
doesn't? Your sacrifices were your choices. As mine are mine, etc. etc.
I did not necessarily agree with everything that was done in the band during
our year together there, however that comes down to my personal choice of
whether to play in a band or not. If two people have differences, I figure
that it is up to those to people to sort them out. Of course, they probably
can't sort them out if neither party is willing to pick up the phone and
talk.
Tone.... Get off your high horse. Most of those guys have been pumping out
great tone for 30 years plus. Did you contribute? Absolutely. And so did
14 other guys.
>>>Youz (Dofasco) only won it because NRP and COW cancelled each other out
and youz won it by default!
??? Must be a new scoring system or something. I thought the band with the
most points won. Oh, they did!
>>> Still is NRP's big suite as round reels and jigs is tough for those old
hands! What happened this year at the Worlds? Still another 3rd again with
MSR's!
Actually there was a big split in piping, a 1st and 7th, with a 1st in
ensemble, I think. Not a big deal. We know we're old. What's your excuse?
>>>I've heard too many horror stories that caused a few members to leave!
Don't push me on this point Ron, but I'll just mention Maxville last year.
John, you of all people should know that you can't believe everything you
hear. If you weren't there, you don't know. If you don't know, you're just
spreading gossip.
>>> I seem to have read that you guys lost the worlds for the 4th year in
row! If youz, really knew what the hell you were doing, you would have won
that contest by now. It didn't take the Prince Charles band or the Western
Australian Police Band this long to win.
Point taken. I actually thought that we played to win all of the last three
years. Let's see. 2nd & 3rd in piping in 1999 in a driving downpour. Two
thirds in piping in 2000, and the 1st & 7th this past year. I think that
the drumming might have held us back a tad, however what does it matter now?
Each was but one contest. I'm looking ahead to the next contest.
>>> It fucking amazes me how you rant on how great the NRP standard is, I
have to remind you that your still only grade 2 and not dominating the
circuit like you should be if youz really knew what you were doing!
First of all, I never rant. And I never said that NRP was great. And if
we're all so over-the-hill we should be happy to be playing at all, let
alone dominating anything.
>>> Isn't that just priceless, cutting the PS of the band at a social event!
I didn't agree with it, John.
>>> Oh buddy, that one really hurt! Ron you know I can get great tone from
a chanter, don't force me to call you a "sore heed". Sorry, I like Jack, but
he wasn't known for his great chanters!
Yes, you know how to set up a chanter. I never said that you didn't. My
point is, was, and remains, that we had 14 "tone men" in NRP and that even
the old Dunbar chanter was more than adequate in the right hands. In
conclusion, and forgive me if I didn't mention this sooner, the new Dunbar
chanter (or L&D chanter) is quite an excellent chanter and, yes, it is an
improvement over previous Dunbar chanters.
>>> Freaking Laughable????? So why the need for a new chanter if the old one
was just fine then?
They wanted to make it finer? Name me one maker who hasn't changed his
chanter in the past 3 years. Hell, some change it every year! ; ) (my sides
are hurting on that one!)
>>> Case closed!
You're right!!!
>>> It's typical pipe band fashion! A guy can dedicate years to a band, but
the second he leaves that band it's screw him! What did he ever do for us
anyway? I'll always remember this about a band when I have to take 8 hours
out of the day to drive to a band practice where too often I was always the
first one there of only 6 other people that showed up. This included the
winter months too, when people wouldn't even come across town to attend band
practice. Next time somebody asks me to join a band, it will be "NO
thanks!".
You're right. We don't often take the time or make the effort to
congratulate or appreciate one another. Competitive piping is an exhausting
hobby. Sometimes I think we're so focused on winning that we forget how to
be human. Or maybe that's just being human???
>>> And the last time I checked, this was a piping forum, not a fucking
spelling bee contest!
Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can't take a shower.
>>> Do I need to give you a run down of each player and how they blew and
what problems they needed to work on. I can do that if you like?
Do whatever makes you feel good. Of course, since you're only trying to be
helpful, you'll want to send me this in private. Maybe cc Al as he's always
looking for the winning edge. Just don't dump on my bandmates. And no
rundown on Ole Ringo or you'll really get me going! ; )
>>>What about my efforts in helping the band to produce a CD for their fund
raising program. Youz forget Alot of things!!!!!!!!
Ah, about that CD John. We're still in the hole on that one, so if you're
taking a lion's share of the credit, could you write us a check? Thanks.
John, it's impossible for me to get upset with you. Well, at least not over
something like this! You know that I'm having a go at you, ole boy. Stay
healthy and well and keep piping and drinking beer.
Ringo on Thanksgiving Day
Gary Moore
gist of your post from Ringo's reply. As we speak I am doing a cut and
paste job of your accomplishments with NRP for our reply to Mrs. Moore of
Modesto.
Cheers
JOHN MITCHELL
"Ron Bowen" <ron_...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:jQeL7.43885$QC5.2...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Aha! Gotcha on that new "subject" line, eh????
>
> O.K. let's find some common ground here so we can move forward. I'm sure
> that most readers are tiring of this already. I know that I am.
If anybody is reading this tripe and taking it serious, then I feel sorry
for them!
It was good chatting old yin! Give my love to Al and the lads and remind
them
that my bar tap was fully paid when I left! LOL
One last point though!
> >>>What about my efforts in helping the band to produce a CD for their
fund
> raising program. Youz forget Alot of things!!!!!!!!
>
> Ah, about that CD John. We're still in the hole on that one, so if you're
> taking a lion's share of the credit, could you write us a check? Thanks.
It's only a pipe band that could lose money on a deal that was fully paid
for
by Solitudes. What about all those practices in the Niagara park where we
sold $500 bucks worth of CD's at a time??????? Something is very wrong!
BTW, do you think the band might see fit to at least give me one CD?
> John, it's impossible for me to get upset with you. Well, at least not
over
> something like this!
Yea, just another war of words that has no relevance to the real pipe band
world!
People can talk all they want, but the real truth is on the Judges score
sheet!
That's debatable too!!!! Good topic for another thread.
> You know that I'm having a go at you, ole boy. Stay
> healthy and well and keep piping and drinking beer.
Did you say drinking Beer? :-) Say no more, I'm off to the pub!
Later you growly old dog you!
JM
BTW, Tell Al if he wants another lesson in humiliation,
I'll set us up here at the local golf course. ;-)
Our sides were splitting last time we played, but he hates
it when he gets beat! I think that was the same weekend
that his wife beat him at pool too, but I promised I wouldn't
say anything to the lads in the band! ;-) Kept my promise!
JOHN MITCHELL
MrRobotTow
>> paste job of your accomplishments with NRP
Unless illegal actions are included, that will be a tiny download.
Bpiper3981
be a midget with no bagpipes, no friends, no family, no life, ex felon drug
addict with only your rubber doll to cuddle up next to.
This is Bill before being a felon ( o ). This is Bill after being in Jail (O).
It would appear the Jim is the sane brother, that can play the pipes, has
friends, a family and is not an ex felon. You must really hate him in you
mental little world he is everything that you are not.
GS
Bpiper3981
>From: "Gary Moore" moo...@home.com
>Date: 11/22/2001 3:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <DUfL7.5993$T67.1...@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>
Hey Gary M. I know Hellen Moore, she has no business concerning John what so
ever. She is just an old twit trying to make trouble. DS told me about you, be
very careful if you put anything in print, that you can't back up. I see Helen
at every St. Andrews meetings if I get even a hint of any bull shite I will
let DS know right away. Not to mention that I will bring charges against her
within the Society for actions that do not look favorable to the Society.
GS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Bpiper3981
a little bait out there and you take it all the way LOL.
GS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
MrRobotTow
>ever. She is just an old twit trying to make trouble.
Heres something the St Andrews meeting might be interested, it seems lieing
trash is allowed in their meetings though (if they let Spleen in.)
> be
>very careful if you put anything in print, that you can't back up.
I have enough evidence to backup anything Gary M. can think of, plus a few
more. I'll be getting an email off to him right after I finish here.
>Not to mention that I will bring charges against her>
John teaching you how to "hold her down"?
MrRobotTow
>within the Society for actions that do not look favorable to the Society.
Any "society" that would allow you in, would allow anything.