The Flower of Scotland History
bagpip...@hotmail.com
land offer any historical background on The Flower of Scotland. Any info
about when first written and of course all the other great background
stuff that comes out of our discussions would be appreciated. I wish
that I could say that I want this info for when I play at a lesbian
wedding but that would be a lie....to bad though eh?
Regards,
John A.
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Lloyd Bogart
Who originated in Dalkieth, not far from Edinburgh, in the
late 1970's or early 1980's IIRC. It became a sort of unofficial
Scots national anthem. If you're learning the tune for solo
work, you'd do well to listen to the original version as some of
the written sets for pipes are, well, iffy.
Good Luck
Lloyd
*****
Odysseus
bog...@centurytel.net (Lloyd Bogart) wrote:
> It was written by one of a musical group called 'The Corries',
> Who originated in Dalkieth, not far from Edinburgh, in the
> late 1970's or early 1980's IIRC. It became a sort of unofficial
Must have been earlier than that, because I learned it (to sing) in the
summer of 1975.
> Scots national anthem. If you're learning the tune for solo
> work, you'd do well to listen to the original version as some of
> the written sets for pipes are, well, iffy.
>
Unfortunately the last phrase contains an "accidental" note (a semitone below
C?) that requires "fudging" to transcribe to the bagpipe scale.
__________
--Odysseus
C Carter
> Unfortunately the last phrase contains an "accidental" note (a
semitone below
> C?) that requires "fudging" to transcribe to the bagpipe scale.
Talk about irony! We say that the chanter scale has a "flattened"
seventh (whatever that means). When we say this, we consider the scale
to run from low A to high A. And high G, the "seventh" of the scale,
sounds in fact a semitone below what we would expect in an A major
scale. But if you take the scale as beginning at D, going up to high A
(the "dominant" in terms of musical theory) and going down to low G
(the "subdominant"), the chanter produces a perfect diatonic major
scale, i.e., with no flattened seventh.
The irony is at the the antepenultimate note (third from last) of FOS
*is* a flattened seventh, and since we play this in the key of D on the
chanter, we *cannot* play the flattened seventh as written.
So we pipers, with our famously flattened seventh scale, cannot play
the FOS, with its flattened seventh next-to-last next-to-last note.
Talk about irony!
me...@skyway.usask.ca
<snip>
>
>So we pipers, with our famously flattened seventh scale, cannot play
>the FOS, with its flattened seventh next-to-last next-to-last note.
>Talk about irony!
>
sounds worse than C# on most chanters)
Chris
Andrew Stewart
made and distributed as LP/tape " Corries live at the Lyceum" (?) Written
by the late Roy Williamson
"Odysseus" <odysseu...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:92s8o1$i65$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Calum
FWIW, I prefer to cross finger the last C. I also do it when we play as a
band, staring the PM between the eyes, because he disagrees with me on
this.
Calum
My date is earlier than anyone else. It's premiere was on television, in
the early sixties. I have none of my Corries videos with me in Aberdeen, so
I'm afraid I can't look the exact year up. Roy didn't like the song when he
wrote it - he was caught singing it, trying to improve it, and were made to
record it there and then. Ironically, this 'nationalistic song,' as folkies
fashionably like to refer to it as, was written on English bagpipes, and
first sung on TV to the accompaniment of a bazouki and a dodgily played
bodhran.
It's first recording was the best, IMO. It was done more slowly and
lyrically, with the bazouki playing descending chord sequences. I loved
it. It was the only recording that was true to the lyrics of the song, and
that allowed the minor finish to work effectively. It was recorded on the
album someone else mentioned, and also released a single which charted, and
I may be right in saying it reached the top twenty. Later, it was speeded
up to terrace speed, and sung as it is today. It was sometime in the 70's,
I think, it hit the football terraces, and took off from there. I have
heard tell of Roy's pride in the last few months of his life he got when the
Grand Slam was won by Scotland against England in a classic game of rugby,
and the crowd sang his song.
Nowadays, it's rarely sung through, which is where the fashionable folkies
come in (contradiction in terms if there was ever one), because the next two
verses are really important to understanding the point of the song. I
remember the days when singers sang twelve thousand verses in the shorter
songs. Moan, moan, moan. I'm feeling cynical at the moment, if you hadn't
guessed.
Any more questions please ask...the Corries spotter awaits...
Cheers,
Calum
Odysseus
Calum <u3...@abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
> LOL - that is ironic. I'd never thought of that one.
>
> FWIW, I prefer to cross finger the last C. I also do it when we play as a
> band, staring the PM between the eyes, because he disagrees with me on
> this.
>
What is meant by "cross fingering"? I've seen this referred to a couple of
times now and can't quite picture it.
__________
--Odysseus
Calum
be played. They were invented by Gordon Duncan in the late eighties when he
wrote Andy Renwicks Ferret.
There are two of these, the C natural and the F natural. To play the C natural,
play C and put your ring finger down and lift your pinkie finger up. That is
the fingering for C natural. To play F natural, play F and put down your ring
finger.
These both feel un-natural to start with, but you will grow used to them. After
a while, they are as easy to play as any other note. Be aware that the F
fingering is not always in tune - this is due to your chanter/reed combination.
You can either fiddle with your combination or try lifting fingers below your F
ring finger. I don't recommend this approach unless you can think this fast in
the middle of a tune.
Other points - the fingerings don't sound on a practice chanter, and until you
get used to them they sound terrible on a pipe chanter. Listen to a few
recordings of them such as Gordon Duncan's, who is a master of this aspect of
piping. I would particularly recommend the Circular Breath, as it comes with a
number of the tunes written out. The main problem with these fingerings is that
there are very few worthwhile tunes indeed with these fingerings that you don't
have to be a pretty technically minded player to deal with.
Hope this helps,
Calum
Matt Buckley
Calum <u3...@abdn.ac.uk> wrote
> They were [cross fingerings] invented by Gordon Duncan in the late
eighties when he
> wrote Andy Renwicks Ferret
Nonsense. I heard pipers, in the US, playing cross-fingerings on C and F
before Gordon was on the scene - Hamish, the Rare Air pipers, among others.
Cheers. Matt
Dave Daley
The Flower of Scotland commemorates the Battle of Bannockburn (1314)
when the Scottish Army under Robert the Bruce (Robert I, King of Scots)
defeated Edward II of England. This ended English rule of Scotland for a
time. In 1603 Elizabeth I, Queen of England, Wales, Ireland and France
died
childless, and her second cousin James VI, King of Scots, ascended to
the English throne. Thus marriage achieved what force of arms could not.
Battle of Bannockburn -
A historic battle between Scottish and English armies, fought near
Bannockburn, Scotland, on June 24,1314, during the Scottish war
of independence against England.
The battle began when the Scottish forces, numbering about 40,000
troops under the command of Robert Bruce , king of Scotland,
intercepted an army of about 60,000 commanded by King Edward
II of England .
The English forces were en route to the relief of a besieged
English
stronghold, Stirling Castle. After inconclusive skirmishing between
patrols of the two armies, the English launched a mass attack, led
by cavalry, on the Scottish positions. Bruce, however, had
prepared the ground before his lines with a series of deep,
camouflaged pits. The mounted English troops blundered into the
pits and were slain by Scottish pikemen.
In the fighting that followed, the English army was decisively
defeated, losing an estimated 10,000 men.
The Battle of Bannockburn is considered the victory by which
Scottish independence was won. However, England did not
recognize Bruce on the throne as Robert I and grant full
independence to Scotland until 1328.
In article <92qra3$gdu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
bagpip...@hotmail.com wrote:
Andrew Stewart
"performance". Can't remember the exact date though.
The album they first recorded it on was in fact "The Corries in Concert"
recorded live at the Lyceum in 1968. If you listen to it you will hear them
introduce it as a "new" song and the reaction of the audience confirms that
they had not heard it before. Thereafter it figured in many recordings.
Cheers
Andrew
"Calum" <u3...@abdn.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3A58D275...@abdn.ac.uk...
Odysseus
Calum <u3...@abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
> It is a fingering that allows notes that aren't on the official bagpipe scale to
> be played. They were invented by Gordon Duncan in the late eighties when he
> wrote Andy Renwicks Ferret.
>
> There are two of these, the C natural and the F natural. To play the C natural,
> play C and put your ring finger down and lift your pinkie finger up. That is
> the fingering for C natural. To play F natural, play F and put down your ring
> finger.
>
> These both feel un-natural to start with, but you will grow used to them. After
> a while, they are as easy to play as any other note. Be aware that the F
> fingering is not always in tune - this is due to your chanter/reed combination.
> You can either fiddle with your combination or try lifting fingers below your F
> ring finger. I don't recommend this approach unless you can think this fast in
> the middle of a tune.
>
> Other points - the fingerings don't sound on a practice chanter, and until you
> get used to them they sound terrible on a pipe chanter. Listen to a few
> recordings of them such as Gordon Duncan's, who is a master of this aspect of
> piping. I would particularly recommend the Circular Breath, as it comes with a
> number of the tunes written out. The main problem with these fingerings is that
> there are very few worthwhile tunes indeed with these fingerings that you don't
> have to be a pretty technically minded player to deal with.
>
Ken MacKenzie
<odysseu...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <3A59D44F...@abdn.ac.uk>,
> Calum <u3...@abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
>> It is a fingering that allows notes that aren't on the official bagpipe scale to
>> be played. They were invented by Gordon Duncan in the late eighties when he
>> wrote Andy Renwicks Ferret.
>>
Uh... I think your age is showing. At least where I come from, there
have been false fingered notes played for as long as there have been
pipers. The notes you describe are two of a number of possibilities.
There is a web site somewhere that is titled "Stupid Bagpipe Tricks"
or some such that details a whole range of them. One that I was always
fascinated with was what is called "pinching" HiA. It is achieved by
closing half the Thumb hole and causes the whole range of the chanter
to change. I saw a piper who actually had a groove etched across the
hole so he could jam his thumbnail into it and effectively close half
the hole. I've never done much of this myself but it has been around
in certain circles for ever. Obviously not competitive circles.
Ken
Calum
invention on Battlefield Bands Celtic Hotel Album, which was released in either
87 or 89. That said, some books written before then note that cross fingerings
are 'possible but not used.'
When were these people playing this stuff?
Cheers,
Calum
Calum
that involved taking the D and C fingers OFF the chanter. Sounds a little unlikely. I
am interested in the thumb story, though - anyone know anything about this?
There are other cross fingering combinations, but these are the only two that are a)
useful and b) consistent from chanter/reed to chanter/reed combination. None of the
others are at all. As I said to Matt, Celtic Hotel details them as being invented by
him, possibly independently.
Calum
out (the Corries were total devils for this sort of thing - even today, I don't
think there's a comprehensive discography available). Another recording, which
I don't know the origin of, is introduced with a little speech along the lines
of 'It's customary in this island to conclude performances with the National
Anthem. Instead, we'll leave you with a different song.'
Matt Buckley
Calum <u3...@abdn.ac.uk> wrote
> I don't know if he invented them independently, but Gordon is credited
with the
> invention on Battlefield Bands Celtic Hotel Album, which was released in
either
> 87 or 89.
Alan Reid, founder and only current original member of the Batties, also
said in an interview with Fiona Ritchie a few years back that the Batties
"were the only traditional Scottish musicians engaging in any sort of
innovation or doing anything new at all". Hmmm. Alan must have forgotten
about Gordon, Hamish, Dick Lee, Rare Air, Easy Club, Cauld Blast Orchestra,
Vale of Atholl PB and countless others.
In other words, I have a hard time taking Alan's scholarship seriously.
After all, this is the guy who is playing the exact same dorky electronic
backup style he was playing in 1975
> That said, some books written before then note that cross fingerings
> are 'possible but not used.'
> When were these people [Hamish, Rare Air] playing this stuff?
I first heard Hamish using the cross fingerings in 1985. I heard the Rare
Air pipers [in their previous band - Na Caberfeidh (?)] using cross
fingerings in 1983.
Calum
Dave Daley wrote:
> From the net,
>
> The Flower of Scotland commemorates the Battle of Bannockburn (1314)
> when the Scottish Army under Robert the Bruce (Robert I, King of Scots)
> defeated Edward II of England. This ended English rule of Scotland for a
> time. In 1603 Elizabeth I, Queen of England, Wales, Ireland and France
> died
> childless, and her second cousin James VI, King of Scots, ascended to
> the English throne. Thus marriage achieved what force of arms could not.
>
It depends how you look at this. If a vacuum had been maintained in
England, James would in all probability have marched south and seized the
Crown in any case, claiming hereditary right. It's interesting to speculate
on what Scotland's position would have been today had this happened, for had
Scotland won, the balance of power in the UK (and hence worldwide) might be
very different. Had Scotland lost, they might have been in a worse position
than after the 45.
>
> Battle of Bannockburn -
>
> A historic battle between Scottish and English armies, fought near
> Bannockburn, Scotland, on June 24,1314, during the Scottish war
> of independence against England.
>
> The battle began when the Scottish forces, numbering about 40,000
> troops under the command of Robert Bruce , king of Scotland,
> intercepted an army of about 60,000 commanded by King Edward
> II of England .
>
More like 3,000 Scots v. 10,000 English, a huge army for the time.
Britain's army today numbers about 100,000. The Battle of Flodden involved,
I think, armies of about 20,000 or so.
>
> The English forces were en route to the relief of a besieged
> English
> stronghold, Stirling Castle.
Bruce's brother (Edward?) had made a deal with the English commander that if
Stirling castle was not relieved by a certain time, then they would quit the
castle and hand it to the Scots. This committed Bruce to a massive set
piece battle rather than the guerilla tactics which had served him so well.
> After inconclusive skirmishing between
> patrols of the two armies, the English launched a mass attack, led
> by cavalry, on the Scottish positions. Bruce, however, had
> prepared the ground before his lines with a series of deep,
> camouflaged pits. The mounted English troops blundered into the
> pits and were slain by Scottish pikemen.
>
The main factor in the English defeat was the English choice of ground,
dictated by Edward II, a weak successor to his father who knew little f
anything about warfare. It was marshy, boggy ground bound by the
Bannockburn, in which his troops could not effectively manoeuvre.
Another factor in the defeat must have been Scots moral. Incidents such as
Bruce single handedly riding down an English knight before the start of the
battle proper could have done nothing but cheer his men. The English saw
this and the flower of their cavalry being destroyed by pikemen, who should
have been blown aside in moments.
>
> In the fighting that followed, the English army was decisively
> defeated, losing an estimated 10,000 men.
>
I forget how many men they lost, but it was not this many. It was the bulk
of their army, most drowned in the marsh or the Bannockburn, some by the
weight of their own armour.
>
> The Battle of Bannockburn is considered the victory by which
> Scottish independence was won. However, England did not
> recognize Bruce on the throne as Robert I and grant full
> independence to Scotland until 1328.
>
Independence took much more fighting than this, including deep raids into
England by Sir James Douglas and others, and support given to the Irish
fighting against English expansion in their country. It also involved much
hardship for the Scots, villages being uprooted and food stores and crops
destroyed that the English might have no food for their armies as they
advanced. Ultimately it was to lead to nothing, as Bruce's weak successors
squandered what he had gained for the country.
Andrew Stewart
Roy: We've got a request for a nationalist song-- so we're going to sing
one
Audience: Cheers etc
Ronnie: It's Welsh actually!
Audience: Laughter/ Boos etc
Roy: It's called "The Flower of Scotland"
Audience : silence (!!)
After a rendition with no audience participation --- acclamation!
"Calum" <u3...@abdn.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3A5B386D...@abdn.ac.uk...
Andrew Stewart
"Calum" <u3...@abdn.ac.uk> wrote in message
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Scratcher
"Andrew Stewart" <And...@astewart22.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:93gaa2$ais$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > news:3A58D275...@abdn.ac.uk...
> > > > bagpip...@hotmail.com wrote:
<snip lots of anorak stuff>
The Corries may have written Flower of Scotland, but the definitive
recording of it was made by Fran & Anna in about 1973.
The memory of it still brings a lump to my throat.
Regards
Dave
Calum
Calum
one.
Odysseus
Ken MacKenzie <akm...@dccnet.com> wrote:
> >>
[...]
> There is a web site somewhere that is titled "Stupid Bagpipe Tricks"
> or some such that details a whole range of them. One that I was always
> fascinated with was what is called "pinching" HiA. It is achieved by
> closing half the Thumb hole and causes the whole range of the chanter
> to change. I saw a piper who actually had a groove etched across the
> hole so he could jam his thumbnail into it and effectively close half
> the hole. I've never done much of this myself but it has been around
> in certain circles for ever. Obviously not competitive circles.
>
That sounds like an adaptation of a recorder technique -- on at least the
descant recorder, splitting the thumb-hole raises the pitch of the notes by
exactly an octave.
Calum
cylindrical and conical bores behave fundamentally differently.
Steve Bliven
chanters) to get one note, and sometimes two, above the A. Many of the
older pipes have the grove across the Hi A where the thumb nail rests in the
half-hole position. See Gordon Mooney's excellent "Tutor for the Cauld Wind
Bagpipes."
in article 93hl8a$jm3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com, Odysseus at
odysseu...@my-deja.com wrote on 1/10/01 7:40 AM: