Drone Reed Sound Reference---input?
Andrew & Kristen Lenz
drone reeds. I'm looking for input on creating an effective comparison.
Here's my musings so far:
1) Use a single tenor & bass drone for comparisons.
2) Use the same recording device/microphone for all samples.
3) Microphone set a precise distance from the end of the drone.
4a) Set the reed and drone to sound a "master" pitch.
4b) In doing so---if possible---set the reed so the drone has the same
amount of slider showing across all sound samplings.
I have a compressed air source at work along with a regulator, so I'd
keep track of pressure required to sound for a given set up.
What potential problems does anyone see? Suggestions?
Please note that this is not something I'll be starting right away.
Maybe late fall or winter, though possibly sooner. I'll be asking for
volunteers willing to part with their reeds for a week or so. I can't
buy them all, that's for sure!
Thanks,
Andrew
--
Andrew & Kristen Lenz
al...@alumni.cse.ucsc.edu
Santa Cruz, California U.S.A.
Richard Mao
I wish you well... BUT....
The air compressor (industrial strength) is going to pulse (pressure wise)
all the time... right through the regulator... and might pulse the drone
pitch...unless you have a huge air buffer or reservoir to offset/level out
the effect....also keep the air compressor far enough away from the
microphone to avoid the humming of the motor... electricity affecting the
sound/pitch/synchronization of the recording of the drones, etc.)
Depending on your source of drone reeds... unless you test them right out
of the box... one determinant of how they are going to sound in a
common/standard single drone is what pressure the varying tongues are set
to shut down... (i.e. an EZdrone set open for band work... will sound
different than an EZdrone set quieter/taking less air for solo work.... so
in this case you aren't really testing one drone reed maker against
another, are you).
You'll never get any piper satisfied with his/her setup to be included
among ..."....volunteers willing to part with their reeds for a week or
so...." .especially when you say... you're going to screw with the
reeds..."4b) In doing so---if possible---SET (CHANGE, SCREW UP!!!!
[emphasis/outrage ;^O added by my paranoid brain]) THE REED so the drone
has the same amount of slider showing across all sound samplings." so when
you get around to sending them back... we'll have to figure out how to
reset the reeds?... do your experiment with new reeds... not MY reeds.
(BTW... who's to tell if your drone slider setting has resulted in the
optimum sound chamber for that drone)
The regulator is going to have to get you down to really low pressures and
hold constant pressure... in and around one pound per square inch (27" on
the manometer)....and you'll want to adjust/use whatever pressure best
sounds on each of reeds.
At one summerschool I attended... about a dozen of us got together with our
various makes of pipes and switched the same physical set(s) of drone reeds
from one set of drones to another...striking up the drones and the whole
class could hear/compare the sound.... and a drone reed make, or cane, or
whatever... that sounded well (as set up by the piper who owned them) in
one set of pipes went very sour (or at least tonally different) in another
different maker's pipes... So all YOU'll be testing is what the different
drone reeds sound in your one single standard drone.
Will your sound recording setup pick up the overtones... and replay them so
the listener can hear...if not, and all we can hear is pitch, loudness (are
you going to be able to measure and report on decibel output) and
buzziness... I won't be able to hear the high pitch overtone "presence"
that I look for for a set of drones/reeds combo to fill the room.
A single drone's sound, or even a simultaneous single tenor and bass....
does not sell me or sour me on a maker of drone reeds.... It's the
combination/balance of both tenors and bass going...(hopefully balanced in
tone and sound volume balanced)... in combination with my then current
chanter/reed setup... (e.g. if a piper like Alasdair Gillies... who has a
world class setup going ...the then current reeds performing to the best of
that outstanding piper's ability to adjust them.... all other factors
equal... if he then swaps in a set of Mark Lee Rockets... and makes the
adjustments necessary to make them sound the best THEY can... and then,
starts using the different set of reeds.... then.... I'll take notice...
until then I'll struggle with my own setup and evaluation).
I dinnae mean to utterin' discouraging words...just voicing "What potential
problems does anyone see? Suggestions?"
Good Luck
Turning away from your dreams is perhaps a greater death than failing to
reach them, for you experience it each day anew. paraphrase
L.E.Modesitt, Jr.
Richard Mao, The Peking Piper ( Pekin...@mao.org )
Mike Szarka
Andrew & Kristen Lenz <al...@alumni.cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in article
<3B493A8F...@alumni.cse.ucsc.edu>...
> I'm toying with the idea of creating a page with sound clips of various
> drone reeds. I'm looking for input on creating an effective comparison.
Some of the biggest factors in "real" use won't be shown by your proposed
tests:
- how much does the pitch change in response to slight blowing variations?
- how much tendency is there to drift?
- do they squeal on startup?
- how efficient are they?
- how well do the harmonics blend with a chanter?
I'm not stepping on your attempts to compare tonal quality, but I don't
think what you are proposing will be all that useful. You really need to
listen to someone playing a bagpipe with the drone reeds in them. The most
important aspects are tonal blend with the chanter, and stability. It
would be impossible to judge these issues with drones run by a compressor.
If someone plays their drones for me with a cork in the chanter stock, for
the most part I honestly can't discern if they're good or bad.
Mike
--
Mike Szarka
Celtic Flair Pipe Band
http://www.celticflair.com/
Black Part's Trusty Sidekick
--
Iain Sherwood
see what's new at www.cuillinn.com
for products, events, and reviews
"Andrew & Kristen Lenz" <al...@alumni.cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:3B493A8F...@alumni.cse.ucsc.edu...
Greg Roche
Anyone got any plans or urls on how to build a manometer?Black Part's
Trusty Sidekick wrote:
Who?
"Greg Roche" <gro...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3B4A6BED...@home.com...
>
>
> Anyone got any plans or urls on how to build a manometer?
Jimmie Kimmell and Adam Corolla have plans to build one.
EdASmith
Once again, I find myself in agreement with Richard. ;-)
I wouldn't try to discourage you from such a project, but the limitations will
make it of marginal value for anyone. Harmonics are the key to tonality, and
you will only be show what various brands of reeds sound like in your specific
drone. A lot of newbies will foolishly think, "Hey, that reed sounds best, I'd
better get a set for my pipes," when in reality, something that doesn't sound
as good in your test might sound terrific in their instrument.
IF you can set it up with a pressure reservoir, eleminate ambiant noise, etc.
as Richard suggests, then you might try recording at sightly different
pressures to see how that varies the tone in a given set of reeds (i.e. will
these things work better for someone who blows 'gut-busters'?) Also, if you
can repeat it with differnt makes of drones, then there might be a little
useful information to glean for someone shopping around.
In terms of measuring harmonics, etc., you might get in touch with Ewan
MacPherson at the U of Mich - he could probably tell you what equipment it
takes.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/
Edward Smith
Burton, Michigan, USA
Andrew & Kristen Lenz
--
Andrew & Kristen Lenz
al...@alumni.cse.ucsc.edu
Santa Cruz, California U.S.A.
********************************
********************************
********************************
Making a Bagpipe Manometer + comments
==========================
==========================
"jfmc" <jf...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> Can you tell me where I can purchase or make a homemade manometer to measure
> pressure. Could someone also describe how the manometer is hooked up while
> playing the chanter to measure pressure. Sorry for the stupid questions.
Go to the Home Depot and get the 20 ft. roll of clear vinyl 3/8" OD,
1/4" ID tubing - about $3.00. It'll be in the plumbing section. While
you're there get a 1/4" male x 1/4" male barbed brass coupler - about
$2.00. Drill a 1/4" hole in one of your #3 rubber stoppers you use for
plugging the stocks when seasoning your bag.
Shove one end of the coupler in the stopper and the other into one end
of the tubing.
This part gets a little complicated. Get your eight-foot steel tape
measure and attatch it to the edge of any door in the house - along the
edge where the knob is. Now you have over six feet of measuring
distance. Attach the free end of the tubing to the top of the door and
run the rest under the door and back up to the middle and attach the
tubing there. The other eight feet of tubing is used to allow you some
room to play your pipe away from the door. Oh yeah, fill the tubing
with water so it comes up to a level just below the middle where the
tubing is attached and get rid of any air bubbles.
You should now be able to remove a drone and replace it with the rubber
stopper and tubing.
You want to measure the total difference between the two water levels
when you're playing.
Make sure the tubing is open at the free end and that there are no kinks
in it.
Mark
===========================================================================
Nice Mark,
I have a few additional suggestions for those making a Bagpipe
Manometer. I built mine using many of the suggestions from David Daye
& the newsgroup last year.
I used PVC pipe to build a simple portable 'frame' for the tube. I
found that I don't really need 8 feet of tape measure for a 'grid'.
Just enough to cover the 'deltas' around the common pressure range
(height) -- I just drew some lines right on the tube. Also, you can
replace the large rubber stopper (the size that plug drone stocks) with
a smaller one (the size that plug drone tops), and just leave your drone
alone -- reed and all. You get the same measurement by just
connecting the tube at the top, because when the Manometer is hooked in,
the pressure differential isn't great enough to cause the reed to vibrate.
Additional 'options' include:
1) A few drops of food coloring (I like green) in the water for greater contrast.
2) A cotton-ball 'governor' at the open end, to adjust sensitivity &
dampen rebound oscillations. Of course, as you 'hook-up' steadier
pipers, you'll want all the embarrassing sensitivity you can get. My old
PM was *so* steady, the only observable was the miniscus changing from
convex to concave (staying in the same spot exactly) depending on where
he was in his blowing cycle -- FREAKISH steadiness.
Oh yeah ... and here's a bit of rational you can give the skeptics:
The Bagpipe manometer shows you, what you SHOULD BE hearing!
Cheers
Todd Muscat
========================================================================
I, too, have had fun with the manometer (my wife wouldn't let me use
food color...which was fortunate when one of my student's turned and
jerked the manometer off the wall and we had water everyplace)...
but somewhat more expedient for me and my students....is to put them in
front of an electronic tuner (which is cheap and can be had by the
students at their own home as opposed to reproducing the manometer I
have on my wall)... and have them use it as a biofeedback device to
grow into steady blowing....
If steady blowing is the goal... in my opinion the tuner does the
trick...If you want to measure steady blowing at the drone top... put a
microphone on a boom stand and cable it to the input of the tuner and
position the tuner on a music stand in front of the student)
If how much air pressure is being used (e.g. between one reed and
another) the manometer is ideal...
========================================================================
I just finished constructing a GHB H2O manometer. The materials cost
US$8.00. I spent about ten minutes constructing it. I marked off the
board in four inch increments, plugged it into my pipe, started playing.
The experiment succeeded without qualification, and provided a graphic
eye-opener of the dynamics of blowing and squeezing.
QUESTION: My pressure fluctuated between two four-inch hash marks
(total pressure difference was eight inches.) Is this moderately bad?
Very bad? Almost hopeless? Thanks to whoever knows.
Ccc31807
========================================================================
> QUESTION: My pressure fluctuated between two four-inch hash marks (total
> pressure difference was eight inches.) Is this moderately bad? Very bad?
It's more a matter of where you are in a month. The manometer is just a tool.
Try playing and have someone else watch the manometer from time to time.
Mark
========================================================================
>QUESTION: My pressure fluctuated between two four-inch hash marks (total
>pressure difference was eight inches.) Is this moderately bad? Very bad?
This is 'Almost hopeless' dude! You should be shooting for a
steady-state where the water level varies by no more than zero to one
inch, after settling through strike-in (about 8 seconds). If your
blowing is that erratic (delta 8 inches of H2O), I would recommend going
back to just drones for a while, and investigating possible bag leaks or
overly stiff reeds. Also, if you cannot HEAR what mayhem this MUST be
creating in terms of musical tones produced, then perhaps you should buy
an CD of one of the top pipers. Listen to it carefully, and shoot for
that kind of steadiness. Train yourself to hear what is going on. If
you cannot (or will not) train yourself to do this over the course of
many months, then I would suggest a different hobby.
When Alasdair Gillies demonstrated the bagpipe manometer at piping
school, the water level stayed DEAD steady. The only observable
movement -- if you look very closely -- is the little curve at the top
of the water (meniscus). It vocationally flips orientation.
Cheers
Todd
======================================================================
======================================================================
======================================================================
19 Oct 1999 12:33:52 GMT
ccc3...@aol.com (Ccc31807)
H2O GHB MANOMETER
-------------------
Materials needed:
rubber stopper to fit stock
20 feet 1/4 inch clear PVC tubing
1/4 inch brass coupling barb
8 foot 1x4 board
box electrical staples
Instructions:
Drill hole through cork and place half of coupling barb through cork, so
that it sticks out from the top of the cork.
Place other half of coupling barb into PVC tubing.
Staple 10 feet of the other end of the tubing to the 1x4 in a "U" shape.
Put enough water in "U" to fill it about halfway. Use food color or ink
to color the water.
Insert stopper in drone stock and blow away.
(Optional: Fix a ruler between the arms of the "U" to measure the
pressure. The end of the ruler is even with the level of the water.
Pressure is measured as the difference between the two arms of the "U"
so a one foot rise equals 24" of pressure. Hard reed = 40" to 50".
Medium reed = 32" to 38". Easy reed = 22" to 28".)
=======================================================================
19 Oct 1999
bog...@uwlax.edu (Lloyd Bogart)
In practice, the manometer described below is a bit cumbersome, and
severely limits the movements of the piper.
As an answer to this, we've devised the step-thru portable manometer.
The board is eliminated, the corked end of the tube is hooked to the
base drone, behind the player, and also
secured at the belt. The piper steps through the "U", and the free end
of the tube is again secured at the belt in front, and held out from the
chest with any suitable brace. (Corking the
other end of the manometer is recommended whilst putting it on.)
This arrangement permits one or several pipers, so equipped, to actually
march about while testing steadiness of blowing, and the effect,
particularly with fluorescent pink water, and
a very unsteady blower, is, to say the least, breathtaking!
Always trying to help;
Lloyd
=======================================================================
Subject: Re: Subtle Coaxing: Chanter Reed
Date: 5 Apr 2000 18:12:32 GMT
From: Dan Maker <redb...@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.bagpipe
Zudupiper <zudu...@aol.com> wrote:
> Gotta get a manometer or make one I guess...
I make one last weekend, it's prety simple. I learned a few tricks for
setting the water level right to work with your measuring device (I use
a free yardstick from KMart). I set it up so that I could slide one side
of the tube up and down to change the size of the 'U' at the bottom, the
larger the 'U' lower on the yard stick the water level is. I also found
that it is helpful to have enough water in the tube so that as you blow
you won't push the water around the bend in the 'U'. If you have too
little water in there you'll just blow it right out the top of the open
end when you strike in, with more water, but still not enough, the water
will all get to the upward climb of the open end and bubbles of air
start to work their way up through the water, letting some of the water
back down to the bottom of the
'U'.
I found the water was easier to see if I added some food colouring
(notice the British spelling) to it, I chose red, just because.
On the end that connects to the pipes, I put a couple of 90 deg. barbs
(connectors), one at the top of the 'U' and the other at the end of the
line, with a 3" piece of tubing on it that actually connects to the
drone. These help keep the tubing from kinking. I'm not compleatly satisfied
with the drone connection, but I haven't come up with anything better
yet, but I'm still working on it.
Dan
=======================================================================
Subject: Re: Manometer [was - Subtle Coaxing: Chanter Reed]
Date: 5 Apr 2000 21:49:27 GMT
From: Dan Maker <redb...@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.bagpipe
Let me add a parts list and some instructions to this:
20' 1/2" id clear vinyl tubing
1 6'x1"x6"
10 1/2" wire holders (at least half of these must be large enough
to slide the tube through with some effort)
1 small funnel
1 linear measuring device
10 screws
glue
food colouring
water
The wire holders I'm refering to are a circular plastic thing with tabs
to screw through and attach it to a wall or such:
____ __________
/ \ | | |
| |____ | | O |
\__________ |______|___|
Side Top
Using the wire holders around the vinyl tube I start at the top of the
board and near the free end of the tube and attach the tube to the board
along one edge, I put the free end on the right side of the board.
Attach the tube every 6" or so for about 3' or the length of your linear
measuring device. Now working back from the drone end of the tube, cut
off a few inches,
splice in one of the 90deg. barbs, measure up the tube about 8' and
splice in the second 90deg. barb, this should form an upside down hook
with the tube:
_______________________________
| |
|
|
Now begin fastening the long end to the opposit edge of the board, about
every 6", I attached the drone end on the left side of the board. Glue
your measuring stick down the middle of the board with 1 toward the
bottom and 36 at the top of the board. Put the funnel in the free end of
the tube pour in some water, slide the free end of the tube up or down,
and add water if
necessary, until the water level is even with the start of the yard stick.
Connect the tube to your drone, use some tape to make the tube end
larger, so that a good connection is made, and strike in.
Dan
=======================================================================
Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:49:31 -0700
Brad Morrison <BMorriso...@concentric.net.invalid>
Does the diameter of the tubing make a difference? I noticed at Bill
Carr's site (which has illustrations) it mentions larger tubing
'Approximately 24 ft (3.2m) length of clear plastic hose 3/4" (10 mm)
ID'. I would think it would take more pressure to move the water with
larger tubing. Being a physics dolt, I am probably way off on that.
Just curious if anyone knows.
Thanks again for the help.
btw - my daughter created this project in class, filling a bottle with
oil and colored water - looks kind of like a lava lamp. That would seem
a good thing to fill the tube with if you are really looking for a
stunning effect
Brad
=======================================================================
Wed, 20 Oct 1999
"Ewan A. Macpherson" <emac...@umich.edu>
lsrapm wrote:
> Ccc31807 <ccc3...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:19991020110525...@ng-da1.aol.com...
> > >Does the diameter of the tubing make a difference?
> Correct me if I'm wrong - I'm no scientist - but I would have thought that
> having the correct internal diameter would have been very important. Surely,
> if you use a tube of only 5mm, for example, instead of 10mm, it would only
> take half the pressure to produce the same reading, because you would only
> be pushing half the weight of water.
Actually, it would be 1/4 the weight (pi-r-squared and all that). The air
pressure is pushing on 1/4 the surface area at the end of the column of water,
and therefore the force is also 1/4 as big (force = pressure x area), so
the
same height difference will be sustained. I suppose there might be weird
capillary effects if you made the tubing *too* narrow.
Ewan Macpherson <emac...@umich.edu>
=======================================================================
Thu, 21 Oct 1999
"Arthur S Matthews" <a...@idl.net.au>
The size of the bore, for the purpose that we are using it for, is not
critical. However if you were using this (without blowing into it) to
check that two points were at the same horizontal level, then the
meniscus effect has to be taken into account. By using a tube of 3/8" or
larger the then the effect mentioned becomes negligible.
Two other things about using the manometer that I have found helpful are:
1) Put a small clamp at the bottom of the tube to restrict the
oscillations of the water. As the person becomes steadier in their
blowing the clamp can be opened off until it is having no effect
2) Do not try and react immediately to any changes in water level. Once
the water starts to oscillate it will overshoot, so trying to catch the
movement will cause an over correction with the arm. Use the changes in
level as an indication only of when in the blowing cycle or tune that
the arm/blowing pressure is being altered.
Cheers, Arthur Matthews
=======================================================================
21 Oct 1999
cots...@aol.com (Cotsford)
I built my own gauge using a dial faced gauge from the Davis Corp. It is
calibrated in inches of water and ranges from 0-60. I drilled out a
black plastic stopper and fitted a small piece of brass tubing to which
I fitted some aquarium hose. I plug it into the stock of one of my tenor
drones. This allows me to hang it on a door knob or something and watch
it while I play.
Most of the players I know blow about 28-32 inches of water as do I.
Cheers,
Steve
=======================================================================
Thu, 21 Oct 1999
aberdeen <aber...@wt.net>
bogar...@uwlax.edu (Lloyd Bogart) wrote:
> Hi Jim, I'd be interested in more details as probably would be others).
> In particular, what is the RANGE of pressures on your manometer dial?
It is a gauge with a 2 1/2" face and a pressure range from 0 - 60 inches
of water. Normal playing pressure is roughly 30 inches of water, so the
needle would be pointing straight up at that pressure (30" of water
equates to about 1 psi).
I've loaded a photo onto my website for your inspection, and although
the quality of the scanning may not be all that great, it should give
you a pretty good idea.
There shouldn't be any reason why you couldn't run a plastic tube for
ease of inspection, but many I've sold to just plug it into the top of
their middle drone and start playing in front of a mirror - it's that easy.
All the best,
Jim
=======================================================================
Sat, 23 Oct 1999
Richard Mao <richa...@prodigy.net>
Hi Todd...
Very right... calling me on "gelatin".... sorry... brain not in gear...
My wife would agree with dampening the momentum... in one of my early
days with
the manometer...I optimistically put some coloring into the water...as
originally suggested by someone for easier visual assessment... and put
too much
water in the tube and blew out about two tablespoons of red colored
water onto
our carpet...(fortunately water soluble...we got it out)
My wife has promised me that in the next instance ... if any... she's
going to
make me suck it out of the carpet...
After I told one of my students of my mishap... he changed to clear water....
(as have I) .... he was lucky... with the manometer attached to his
pipes... in
responding to a phone call... he pulled the manometer over from its upright
position...and all the water dumped on his wife's floor....
I have drilled two holes near the top outside edges of my board and
installed a
cup hook at the top center... I have securely tied a loop of strong twine
through the holes and loop the string over a curtain rod... and onto the cup
hook... this suspends the manometer reasonably firmly...
Words to the wise
If it feels squishy and wet...when you step in it in the dark of night
.... you don’t want to turn on the flashlight to find out what it was....
from a recent conversation....
Richard Mao, The Peking Piper ( Pekin...@mao.org )
=======================================================================
Subject: RE: bag pressure range
Date: 13 MAR 00 23:23:17 GMT
From: me...@skyway.usask.ca
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.bagpipe
ccc31807 <ccc31807...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>Inches of water on the tube manometer:
>
>Easy: 24 to 30
>Medium: 32 to 38
>Hard: 40 and up
>
>A friend of mine, an extremely steady blower, plays at 22
>inches, and does quite well.
>
>Mark Lee says we plays at 45 inches, and that surely must be at
>the upper range.
>
>Can anyone correlate inches of water to pounds per square inch?
Try this one - 1 cubic foot of water weighs 64 lbs (why do I remember
that ?),
so pile this all into 1"x1" and you get 144' high; so 1728" of
H2O == 64lbs/sq.in; so 22" = 0.8 psi.
There will be a test.
Chris
=======================================================================
Subject: Re: bag pressure range
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:27:13 GMT
From: Stuart Taylor <stut...@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.bagpipe
> Can anyone correlate inches of water to pounds per square inch?
1 inch water = .036 PSI
Stuart Taylor
PCPB
=======================================================================
=======================================================================
=======================================================================
Andrew & Kristen Lenz
>
>
Ah, but for the good of piperdom. But you are right, I certainly could
use more practice.
Andrew & Kristen Lenz
e-mailed privately that I read but my wife erased before I could reply.)
Just what I was looking for. Brought up some good and important issues.
Just to address the compressor issues, should I still attempt the
project---an experienced piper suggested it to me---the compressor in
question is in an entirely different room (no noise) in the building
with a large secondary air tank, so the air flow would be extremely
steady, particularly if the required pressure is as low as Richard
suggests (1 p.s.i.).
Regardless, it appears to be a questionable endeavor. We'll see.