Pakastani Pipes, Why Not?
Young
I've been reading and hearing how terrible Pakastani pipes are, but I
don't think I've ever actually spoken to anyone who will admit to
owning a set. I've heard about poor quality materials and
workmanship, but I've also heard of expensive blackwood pipes
cracking. My questions to the group are these:
Is there anybody out there that has a Paki-pipe horror story they'd
like to share? Are they completely worthless? What are the biggest
complaints? Is there anyone who plays Paki pipes that actually likes
them?
I see these things selling on ebay all the time, so there must be
somebody out there playing them. I'm a beginner who's having a hard
time turning away from the relative low cost of a Paki set, and I'd
like to have more specific justification for the expense of a Scottish
set besides just saying that "Paki pipes are crap."
Donning my flame-proof suit, I welcome any response.
Thanks,
Derek
Ccc31807
$300 new. They appeared to be of passible quality when I got them. Not
spectacular, but not junk, either.
To play them I added a chanter ($110), bag ($70), drone and chanter reeds
($65), and valve ($3). To improve their appearance and make them presentable
in public, I added a bag ($10) and cords ($15). I also needed to repair the
blowstick and a drone top, that were defective to the extent that they were
unusable.
I had $573 in the pipe, which was playable to the extent that I could use it
both in solo competition and band competition. The average listener wouldn't
be able to tell the make of the pipe by the sound.
I have seen other Paki pipes that are playable, and in fact are used for public
performances. I have also seen two Paki pipes that are unplayable regardless
of the upgrades. If I bought a Paki pipe, I would have a money back guarantee
from the vendor, and I would also have them examined immediately on delivery by
an experienced piper to confirm that they can indeed be made playable.
I would recommend that a person consider Paki pipes only under these two
circumstances: he is so poor that the choice is between Paki pipes and no
pipes, or he is so unsure of his fitness to be a piper that he doesn't want to
invest in a good quality set. Even then, I would state as a FACT that Paki
chanters, bags, and reeds are of such poor quality that the buyer should expect
to purchase these items to add to his Paki pipes. If you do not fit into one
of these categories, buy a used set or a new set. Dunbar, Pettigrew, and Booth
are presently the most price competitive of new pipes.
JSLOANPR
>set besides just saying that "Paki pipes are crap."
Hold a set in your hands and examine them, it's worth a thousand words.
Jim
Matthew Wood
are very competetive in regards to prices.
Matt
br...@ais.com
ccc3...@aol.com (Ccc31807) wrote:
> My first set of pipes was a set of "cocuswood" pipes from Pakistan.
> They cost $300 new. They appeared to be of passible quality when I
> got them. Not spectacular, but not junk, either.
Note to other readers: "cocuswood" is in quotes for a good reason.
True cocus does not grow anywhere near Pakistan (it's from the islands
in the Caribbean, as I recall) and is actually a very good instrument
wood. One piper in our band has a set of turn-of-the-century Stark
pipes made out of cocus; it's a beautiful set and sounds very nice.
Cocus is, however, frightfully expensive (even more so than blackwood)
because it has been nearly logged out. No possible way that it would
ever be used for cheap pipes ...
> To play them I added a chanter ($110), bag ($70), drone and chanter
> reeds ($65), and valve ($3). To improve their appearance and make
> them presentable in public, I added a bag ($10) and cords ($15). I
> also needed to repair the blowstick and a drone top, that were
> defective to the extent that they were unusable.
>
> I had $573 in the pipe, which was playable to the extent that I could
> use it both in solo competition and band competition. The average
> listener wouldn't be able to tell the make of the pipe by the sound.
>
> I would recommend that a person consider Paki pipes only under these
> two circumstances: he is so poor that the choice is between Paki
> pipes and no pipes, or he is so unsure of his fitness to be a piper
> that he doesn't want to invest in a good quality set. Even then, I
> would state as a FACT that Paki chanters, bags, and reeds are of such
> poor quality that the buyer should expect to purchase these items to
> add to his Paki pipes. If you do not fit into one of these
> categories, buy a used set or a new set. Dunbar, Pettigrew, and
> Booth are presently the most price competitive of new pipes.
I will second all of these comments. I have seen SOME Pakistani drones
that could be made playable, but I have NEVER seen a Pakistani bag that
was adequate or a chanter that you'd want to play in public (and
usually not even in private).
In addition, the quality of the drones has a huge variation: all the
way from mediocre to positively dreadful. It's common to find that the
drone bores have not even had the wood shavings blown out of them, let
alone any polishing; they often look and feel as if they had been
bored out with a chain saw, if such a thing were possible. Very often
the first order of business is to try to get the bores cleaned out and
polished; sometimes after all the refinishing and re-outfitting you
get an almost reasonable set and sometimes you don't. Unfortunately,
most of the vendors don't even allow returns if you _haven't_ made any
modifications to the instrument :-(.
I've had various students come to me saying that they had bought such
things, and had the joy (?) of trying to get them playable. One thing
that you might not think of if you're a beginning piper is that you
can't just put a canmore bag on them; the fact that the stocks are
smaller than the usual size for sets made in Britain or North America
means that you're likely to leak around all of the stocks where they
go through the bag. So your first task is likely to be tying in a good
leather or sheepskin bag ... not recommended if you aren't already
familiar with the process. Until you do that, the things won't even
hold air, let alone sound good.
By contrast, if you get a Dunbar or Kintail from a reputable dealer,
you'd be able to return it if it was defective, and it won't cost you
that much more than the upgraded Paki set. More importantly, you won't
have to spend your first couple of months or so trying to figure out
how to make it playable since it will have already been done for you!!
Personally, for a budget set I'd probably go with the Dunbar even
though it's poly; the Kintail pipes seem to have gone downhill in
recent years (and I was never overly fond of them to begin with). The
Dunbars aren't about to challenge Henderson, but when set up well they
sound OK -- much better than any Paki -- and they will stand up to
quite a beating (no need to worry about cracks).
Stay far away from Paki sets unless you really know what you're doing!
The pipes from reputable makers will hold their value, so you'll be
able to sell them for about what you have in them (assuming that you
haven't abused them); not so with the Pakis, which you'll probably be
lucky to unload for half what you paid for them.
Good luck,
Bruce C. Wright
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
cho...@don'teventhinkit.com
bagpiper.com I did, and from Dennis (the Tartan Trail) bought a
WONDERFUL set of 1940's Grainger's for, what, $700? 60 year old
pipes, beautiful blackwood, and much heavier than the 3 new sets of
pipes in the band we are starting here in South Dakota (what else can
you do in the middle of winter??) -- The drones seem to be made of a
thicker and denser blackwood. And, he threw in the hemp, case, wax,
bore oil, AND tied in a goretex bag for me (sorry, don't flame the
bag! It was my first set, didn't want to worry about seasoning it
right away!)
But, as I was saying, look around for used sets. You can find some
sweet deals out there!
--Chris
argleblargle
> Hi All...
>
> I've been reading and hearing how terrible Pakastani pipes are, but I
> don't think I've ever actually spoken to anyone who will admit to
Bag:
After seasoning the bag (with some excruciatingly foul, but ineffectual
glop that came with the pipes), the bag failed to hold air when the drone
stocks and the chanter stock were stoppered. The camel-hide leather was
so thin in places that air leaked out, and the seam leaked badly. After
proper seasoning with air-tite, the bag still leaked. Also, when the bag
got wet (after the second time, I wanted to see where it was leaking
from, so I immersed it in a tub of water while blowing it up ... figured
it was already ruined anyway) it smelled like a road-side urinal. Piss-
tanned leather?
Blowpipe:
LEather on flapper valve so shitty that it cracked when I opened it. End
of blowpipe uneven, had to sand it down before the new clacker I made for
it would seal properly. Pipe too narrow to install a lil-mac. Unscrewed
the plastic (not delrin, some shitty brittle stuff that reminded me of
the crap Revell makes models from), big chunks of wood 'threading' came
with it. Had to epoxy the mofo back on.
Drones:
After buying a new bag and tying in the ol' Pakistocks - fired up the
drones. Sounded very nasal. Tried some wygents, then some generic cane
reeds. Still sound like shit. Looked down the bore - flakes of wood in
the bore. Besides the internal issues, the two tenor drones were not
swappable (different sizes - measured the stocks, 3/32nds of an inch in
difference. Got some dowelling and sandpaper, cleaned out the drones.
Sound a bit better, still suck, though.
Chanter:
Yeah, right. Reed seat so big that normal reeds fell in to their
shoulders. After hemping up a reed (so it would seat), played it a bit.
Sounds like shit. Hmm. Took a look down the bore - fuzzy, unpolished,
offcenter. Threw it in the fire. Borrowed a Dunbar Poly chanter. Chanter
stock too small to fit the chanter in.
The Paki pipes did bring warmth to my life, though, when the fed the
fireplace last year.
A lot of the other stuff I've gotten from LitM has been good. Paki pipes
aren't worth a bucket o piss, though.
Learning the pipes is hard enough when the pipes are on your side. Don't
make it worse by buying shit for equipment.
Daniel Jackson
the chanter stock and seasoned the hell out of the bag three times or
so, it became pretty airtight, but not for any extended period of time.
I put Henderson synthetics in the drones and got a decent, consistent
sound from them. The chanter, although too low in pitch to play with
other pipers, got a reasonable enough sound for funeral work. Of
course when I bought a Gibson chanter to improve the playability, I had
to bore out the puny chanter stock and use a lot of hemp. Oh yeah, and
the flapper was crap, had to replace that.
I guess, echoing the other posts, what I'm saying is that your $300
dollar investment can be made playable if it's bored reasonably cleanly
to begin with AND you invest another couple hundred.
For that, if I had it to do again, I would have waited a bit and sunk
all that change at once into a set of Dunbar poly's or the like (I'm
gonna wind up doing that anyway so I have a set of bad weather/Paddy's
Day beaters to fill in for my Hardies)
FWIW
Dan
br...@ais.com
axn...@webtv.net (Daniel Jackson) wrote:
> My first set was Paki- I must have lucked out because after I re-tied
> the chanter stock and seasoned the hell out of the bag three times or
> so, it became pretty airtight, but not for any extended period of
> time. I put Henderson synthetics in the drones and got a decent,
> consistent sound from them. The chanter, although too low in pitch to
> play with other pipers, got a reasonable enough sound for funeral
> work. Of course when I bought a Gibson chanter to improve the
> playability, I had to bore out the puny chanter stock and use a lot
> of hemp.
In my experience you were quite lucky. Most Paki chanters would need
serious reworking with a wood carving knife even to bring them in tune
with themselves, and even after that their tone would still be cr*p.
Of course, if you're playing with a band, they'll probably give you a
band chanter anyway, but even most street bands (let alone competition
bands) probably won't let you play with the typical Paki drones: Even
if they can be made to sound passable or are just shut off somehow,
they _look_ like junk. There are exceptions, of course, but if you're
putting down your hard-earned money you'd rather get a useable product
rather than a lottery entry.
br...@ais.com
choier@don'teventhinkit.com wrote:
> For the price of the pipes and upgrades, I'd suggest checking out
> [...] And, he threw in the hemp, case, wax,
> bore oil, AND tied in a goretex bag for me (sorry, don't flame the
> bag! It was my first set, didn't want to worry about seasoning it
> right away!)
Nothing wrong with goretex bags. They're different from leather or
sheepskin, but they do have advantages - noteably that they are very
lightweight and that they require no seasoning and no maintenance.
The lightness can cut both ways, since they are a little trickier to
do strike-ins and cutoffs with them; you have to get the bag nearly
empty before the cutoff or else you'll have late drone sounds, much
touchier than leather bags. Some of the older ones didn't last as
long as a good leather bag like the L&M, but that supposedly has been
fixed (too early to tell however). But on the plus side, they can
shed moisture much better than leather (more like sheepskin), which is
a real plus if you are a wet blower. So you win some and you lose
some - there hasn't been an ideal pipe bag designed yet.
Bagpiip
Isn't it actually Rosewood that they call cocus?
Bill
Mar a bha, mar a tha,
mar a bhitheas gu brath,
ri traghadh's ri lionadh.
Tim Sullivan
Bagpiip <bag...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990809101312...@ng-fh1.aol.com...
> >Note to other readers: "cocuswood" is in quotes for a good reason.
>
In my experience they'll call the Rosewood "rosewood" and call sheesham
wood cocus. The *real* cocus is some tough stuff. Sheesham isn't fit for
kindling.
Bo Møller-Nielsen
My first set (my current set) is a "paki", but only the drones and blowpipe
(ABW). FWIW - those drones with shepheard cane read sounds ok when properly
set up (fine remarks in competitions). Now we are playing Henderson plastic
and the base drone can at times be a little tricky. Last time I practised,
just before my summer holidays, after about 30-45 min. I suddenly realised
that the drones sounded great. I just enjoyed the sound and didn't try to
find out why they were sounding that good.
As for workmanship, I'm not al that impressed.
In the band there are at this time 4 paki sets incl. my set. 3 of the sets
(only talking about drones) are old sets like mine and they sounds ok but
they are going to be replaced with Nails (we talked about it this evening at
bandpractice). The new set of paki do not sound good at all and the imit.
ivory looks like white plastic. It is one ugly set of bagpipe. I ordered my
Nails about 1 month ago and have been told that they would be ready on
Monday.
--
Bo Moeller-Nielsen
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>
>Bagpiip <bag...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:19990809101312...@ng-fh1.aol.com...
>> >Note to other readers: "cocuswood" is in quotes for a good reason.
>>
>> Isn't it actually Rosewood that they call cocus?
>
> In my experience they'll call the Rosewood "rosewood" and call sheesham
>wood cocus. The *real* cocus is some tough stuff. Sheesham isn't fit for
>kindling.
In my experience they'll call Phillipine mahogany "rosewood" and call
anything they feel like "cocus," and the fact is, sheesham makes very
good kindling and has a nice, incense-like fragrance.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
>For the price of the pipes and upgrades, I'd suggest checking out
>bagpiper.com I did, and from Dennis (the Tartan Trail) bought a
>WONDERFUL set of 1940's Grainger's for, what, $700? 60 year old
>pipes, beautiful blackwood,
Might actually be ebony.
Royce
Zudupiper
>like to share? Are they completely worthless? What are the biggest
>complaints? Is there anyone who plays Paki pipes that actually likes
>them?
No, they're by no means completely worthless, and properly setup, sound pretty
darn adequate. It depends where they came from originally.
I've owned and set-up the same set of Pakis (originaly from Lark in the
Morning) 3 times, for 3 different students. For the first 6-12 months you're
on pipes, Pakis are as good as anything. That's 3 owners, 2 years, no cracks
except for the blowpipe and I expected that anyway.
However, some things need to be upgraded so you get an adequate sound.
Required upgrades:
Plastic "real" chanter $75 used
EZs or Wygents or other synthetics $50
New bag $60
That's $185 for the essential stuff.
Optional or as-needed upgrades
Plastic blowpipe and stock $80
Better bagcover & cords $40 used
That's $120 more.
Figure you're going to pay $200-$300 for a set of Pakis, and spend $200 more
getting them playable and good-sounding. Maybe $120 more than that. By now
you're into them for almost $600.
And, too, some Paki pipes are absolute trash. This particular set isn't, but
maybe that was just the luck of the draw.
That's my take on the Paki story.
Zu
Buying Paki, you get no guarantees of anything. Buying a name-brand of pipes,
you do.
Tad Myers
Zudupiper wrote:
> >Is there anybody out there that has a Paki-pipe horror story they'd
> >like to share? Are they completely worthless? What are the biggest
> >complaints? Is there anyone who plays Paki pipes that actually likes
> >them?
>
> No, they're by no means completely worthless, and properly setup, sound pretty
> darn adequate.
Operative word here...adequate. Not good or okay just adequate.
> It depends where they came from originally.
Pakistan...more need not be said.
> I've owned and set-up the same set of Pakis (originaly from Lark in the
> Morning) 3 times, for 3 different students.
Thats the scarry part, that you are teaching and allowing your students to throw
their money and time away on Paki garbage!
> For the first 6-12 months you're on pipes, Pakis are as good as anything.
Anything except maybe a bagpipe. Students need a pipe that is setup well and that
has as few technical problems as possible. Its hard enough trying to get the thing
to make the proper sounds.
> That's 3 owners, 2 years, no cracks
> except for the blowpipe and I expected that anyway.
> However, some things need to be upgraded so you get an adequate sound.
Like an upgrade to a real pipe.
> Required upgrades:
> Plastic "real" chanter $75 used
> EZs or Wygents or other synthetics $50
> New bag $60
New instructor...priceless.
> That's $185 for the essential stuff.
>
> Optional or as-needed upgrades
> Plastic blowpipe and stock $80
> Better bagcover & cords $40 used
>
> That's $120 more.
>
> Figure you're going to pay $200-$300 for a set of Pakis, and spend $200 more
> getting them playable and good-sounding. Maybe $120 more than that. By now
> you're into them for almost $600.
About 600 bucks more than they are worth.
> And, too, some Paki pipes are absolute trash.
Read...all
> This particular set isn't, but
> maybe that was just the luck of the draw.
With that kind of luck you should move to Vegas and take them all down.
> That's my take on the Paki story.
>
> Zu
>
> Buying Paki, you get no guarantees of anything.
Except that you have just flushed your money down the commode.
> Buying a name-brand of pipes, you do.
Zu, Zu, Zu...where were you two years ago when the last Paki war was fought here
on the net? I see you haven't been reading your FAQ's have you...bad
squirell...bailliff, whack his pee-pee.
The odds of getting a crap Paki pipe very simply make it not worth the investment.
If you were told that there was a 75% chance that when you buy car A it would
break down immedeatly and that car B would only break down 5% of the time and you
went out and bought car A because it was 100 bucks cheaper, we would call you
stupid! I think thats a pretty fair analogy...anyone
dissagree?...anyone?...anyone?
Cheers
Tad Myers
Tim Sullivan
sheesham
> >wood cocus. The *real* cocus is some tough stuff. Sheesham isn't fit
for
> >kindling.
>
> In my experience they'll call Phillipine mahogany "rosewood" and call
> anything they feel like "cocus," and the fact is, sheesham makes very
> good kindling and has a nice, incense-like fragrance.
>
> Royce
Well now you've let the cat out of the bag, Royce. ROYCE IS A CLOSET
DEAD-HEAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This explains the tie-dyed tartan of your
kilt, at any rate. <G>
Rojo2G
kindle flames on this newsgroup. Any topic on Paki pipes flame well here.
Its a plus for any beginner to use any pipe decently set up than not to have
one at all. It seems a case of if you have lemons make lemon aid.
Tim Sullivan
Rojo2G <roj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990810142157...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
True, but if you have hemlock, it is unwise to make hemlockade. KNOW
THE DIFFERENCE!
Kenton Adler
I'd be careful about using "flames" and "Paki pipes" in the same sentence.
Paints too tempting a picture.
All kidding aside, the things are 90% garbage. It's rare that they can be
well set up. How can you set something up that aren't bored all the way
through, or not bored straight, or cracked, or any number of other defects
I've seen on these things? Why spend the money on something that's going
to frustrate the hell out of you and make you want to quit, or necessitate
upgrading in a year or two, when there are decent alternatives (such as
pre-owned pipes, low-end better made new pipes) available.
I heard a high school band a couple of years ago just FILLED with good
players, but playing on Pakistani made pipes and the band sounded like a
circus wagon. No reason for it, except somebody said junk pipes were
better than no pipes. I totally disagree. Better to keep practicing on
the chanter and save up a little longer. If you saved $450 you can save
$550, or $650, or whatever it takes.
noc
lets take another instrument so we can be objective for just a moment,
how about the guitar? Now lets say that your son has the bug and really
*really* wants to play the guitar. You aren't sure he will "stick with
it" so you buy him a cheap acoustic beater at a garage sale. He loves it.
He gets a few lessons and they show him how to tune it and how to play
it. Every lesson though, no matter how hard he tries, he just doesn't
quite have what it takes to sound good. He always falls just a little bit
short. He can never seem to play in tune and his intonation just is never
right despite hours of practice. Finally he figures that he just doesn't
have what it takes to sound good so he gives up and you think as a parent
that you've made a wise choice not to invest in an expensive instrument.
So now lets translate:
Paki pipes DON'T sound good. They never will and it was never the
intention of their makers for them to sound good. They make fine wall
hangers but that is where their value ends. Bagpipes are a quirky and
difficult instrument at the best of times and when you are first learning
you will *NEVER* get the pure joy of playing a really well tuned
instrument because they just can't do it.
If you buy a cheap instrument, even understanding the limitations, you
are trading dollars (or whatever) for pleasure and potential. You won't
ever really even have the opportunity to love how you sound and unless
you love it, at least a little bit, you won't stick with it.
I teach several instruments and I have seen this exact thing happen to
kids and to adults. The kids have it worst because they fell like they
just aren't good enough to make the sound and the adults just don't stay
interested when they have a poor quality instrument, whether it be
guitar, pipes, or anything else.
On the other hand the students who have a decent instrument (not
necessarily top notch of course) will hit a moment where they do
everything right and the instrument doesn't let them down and from then
on they're totally hooked.
You have to have a decent instrument ESPECIALLY in the early stages. I
insist.
-Caven Keith
(please direct any replies to ca...@doodlepig.com)
Young wrote:
> Hi All...
>
> I've been reading and hearing how terrible Pakastani pipes are, but I
> don't think I've ever actually spoken to anyone who will admit to
> owning a set. I've heard about poor quality materials and
> workmanship, but I've also heard of expensive blackwood pipes
> cracking. My questions to the group are these:
>
> Is there anybody out there that has a Paki-pipe horror story they'd
> like to share? Are they completely worthless? What are the biggest
> complaints? Is there anyone who plays Paki pipes that actually likes
> them?
>
> I see these things selling on ebay all the time, so there must be
> somebody out there playing them. I'm a beginner who's having a hard
> time turning away from the relative low cost of a Paki set, and I'd
> like to have more specific justification for the expense of a Scottish
> set besides just saying that "Paki pipes are crap."
>
Zudupiper
>> Morning) 3 times, for 3 different students.
>
>Thats the scarry part, that you are teaching and allowing your students to
>throw
>their money and time away on Paki
Nae, nae, nae. You are laboring under a misapprehension. I don't recommend to
anybody that they buy Paki, but a student came to me a while ago who already
owned a set of Pakis. We upgraded them, I saw he was serious about piping, and
had him buy Krons.
He sold the souped-up Pakis to another student, whose choice was either THESE
Pakis or no pipes at all. He played them for 6 months, came into some money,
and I sold him my Robertsons and took the Pakis back as a partial tradein. (I
was moving up to Krons at about the same time.)
Now the Pakis are being used by a third student, and as usual, I have a
standing offer to buy them back for about half price when the student either
moves up or out.
>> For the first 6-12 months you're on pipes, Pakis are as good as anything.
>
>Anything except maybe a bagpipe. Students need a pipe that is setup well and
>that
>has as few technical problems as possible.
Well, duh. Of course they're setup well. I made my own reeds for them, didn't
I? The technical problems are solved by now, and they're as good as anything
for the first 6 months. In the hands of a newbie,
Hendeson=Dunbars=Drumran=Paki. Quality of sound is secondary as long as all
the functional parts work right, and as long as the sound quality isn't
objectionably bad.
>New instructor...priceless.
>
Damn, I should have put that on the T-shirt! Hehehehe...
>By now
>> you're into them for almost $600.
>
>About 600 bucks more than they are worth.
Naw, maybe $300 or $400.
> I see you haven't been reading your FAQ's have you...bad
>squirell...bailliff, whack his pee-pee
Ouch! Damn!
>The odds of getting a crap Paki pipe very simply make it not worth the
>investment.
I think we are in violent agreement here.
For the $ you'd spend on Pakis, plus the $ you'd need to upgrade, you could
have a decent used set of real pipes for not much more.
However comma the original question was "Why Not Pakis?"
The answer is: If people knew how much work and $ they'd have to put into a set
of Pakis to get adequate sound, they'd realize that Pakis are no bargain. but
people who buy Pakis generally don't know much about pipes.
Zu
Zudupiper
>kindle flames on this newsgroup.
>Its a plus for any beginner to use any pipe decently set up than not to have
>one at all. It seems a case of if you have lemons make lemon aid.
Well said. You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar, and you have impeccable
taste in T-shirts to boot!
Which BTW might be ready by the end of this week....a few days early.
Zu
Royce Lerwick
<tadm...@black-hole.com> wrote:
>
>> For the first 6-12 months you're on pipes, Pakis are as good as anything.
>
>Anything except maybe a bagpipe.
I spit Surge out my nose when I read that.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>here is why not to buy crappy bagpipes:
>
>lets take another instrument so we can be objective for just a moment,
>how about the guitar? Now lets say that your son has the bug and really
>*really* wants to play the guitar. You aren't sure he will "stick with
>it" so you buy him a cheap acoustic beater at a garage sale. He loves it.
>He gets a few lessons and they show him how to tune it and how to play
>it. Every lesson though, no matter how hard he tries, he just doesn't
>quite have what it takes to sound good. He always falls just a little bit
>short. He can never seem to play in tune and his intonation just is never
>right despite hours of practice. Finally he figures that he just doesn't
>have what it takes to sound good so he gives up and you think as a parent
>that you've made a wise choice not to invest in an expensive instrument.
So great, now I have to junk my Pakistani guitar as well?
Royce
Hugh Hamilton
I have been following the thread on Pakastani pipes with interest, as
somebody who will be getting a set of pipes in the near future. But as
somebody who lives in the UK - two questions for NG members on this side
on the Alantic;
Are Dunbar pipes sold in the UK, is so where?
Where is best to look for a set of second hand bagpipes in the UK?
Many thanks
Hugh
(in Leicester)
BTW
I would agree with the comments on getting a good set of pipes rather than
an inexpensive set - one of the hardest lessons in any trade in about
buying cheap equipment.
Michael Duell
Mike
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Paki pipes flame well here.
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Pipertommy
>Now the Pakis are being used by a third student, and as usual, I have a
>standing offer to buy them back for about half price when the student either
>moves up or out.
Aha! Now I think I can see why you are wasting our valuable time and bandwidth
defending your F****** Paki Trash! You're in it for the money! Ripping off
innocent students for personal gain! Naughty, naughty, naughty! I bet you get
a much faster turnover, this way. Your victims -- I means students, wouldn't
feel the need to sell back their instruments to you, at a 50% loss, if they
started out with a quality set of pipes, now would they? Tom
Tad Myers
Royce Lerwick wrote:
Clears the sinuses don't it...
Theodore Le boeuf
The pakistani's do make pipes that knowone over here makes. The Brian
Boru Pipe, and Keyed chanters. I still have my 4 keyed ebony chanter
and its a great instrument.
I am still having one of the makers over their copy a few named makers
pipes, one is a set of 1910 P. Hendersons, and the other is a David
something or other....
They do have the bore sizes correct with a highly polished bore, like
everyone likes!! But I am having them work on the combing and beading
right now, more the combing. I would like the small lathe lines to be
more pointed and even than what they has sent in the past. But their is
still no luck on the chanter, they have a Sinclair chanter but they cant
copy it, so I will probably buy Ian Murray chanters from Scotland.
Now as for Mini Pipes, I was thinking of the Brass Tube Methood, so they
dont have to try and polish Sheesham wood bores, which is impossible,
and most Mini Pipes Rarely work (This is coming from the maker in
Pakistan).
I am also having them work on Uilleann Pipes. So far just a practice
set at the moment which I have sent blue prints to the for reamer
measurements and all of that stuff,, the first chanter turned out prety
good, (Similar to a Leo Rowesome D Chanter), but they dont know how to
make reeds, so I will probably have someone over here do that.
Now we are going to start working on the Drones and Regulators... The
first few sets will be Ebony, and the maker is working on making a Dia
to make an Injected Plastic UP Chanter, Soon a Full set will be produced
from Injected Plastic (Except the metal parts, which will be brass or 3k
gold to asure it wont tarnish).
So quality instruments are soon available from Me, which I will get them
from Pakistan and other sources.
Plastic Full Sets starting at around $1000.00 US I think would be a good
price.
Does anyone have any Scottish Smallpipe Blue Prints? or anyone looking
to sell a Working Smallpipe?
Please e-mail me at MikeL...@hotmail.com
Thanks,
Mike
Tad Myers
Theodore Le boeuf wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> The pakistani's do make pipes that knowone over here makes. The Brian
> Boru Pipe, and Keyed chanters. I still have my 4 keyed ebony chanter
> and its a great instrument.
> I am still having one of the makers over their copy a few named makers
> pipes, one is a set of 1910 P. Hendersons, and the other is a David
> something or other....
> They do have the bore sizes correct with a highly polished bore, like
> everyone likes!! But I am having them work on the combing and beading
> right now, more the combing. I would like the small lathe lines to be
> more pointed and even than what they has sent in the past. But their is
> still no luck on the chanter, they have a Sinclair chanter but they cant
> copy it, so I will probably buy Ian Murray chanters from Scotland.
> -snip the crap-
> Please e-mail me at MikeL...@hotmail.com
> Thanks,
> Mike
Are you a dealer for one of these Paki hacks.
Theodore Le boeuf
No, I just like to throw money around and buy all of these pipes for
myself. (can you sence the sarcasm? or are you too narrow minded for
that too?)
ANYMORE STUPID QUESTIONS???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tad Myers
Theodore Le boeuf wrote:
Just one more...are you really as stupid as i think you are, or do you surpass
even my imagination of epic stupidity? Maybe you're one of those clown pipers
who wears the big shoes and the orange wigs at children's birthday parties...no
you would have to have a clue of what your doing to do that and its pretty
obvious you don't!
Here's sarcasm for you ...PLEASE TELL US MORE ABOUT THESE WONDERFUL PAKISTANI
PIPES OF YOURS...how long do they burn? can you use them to hold up your
tomatoes? do they make a proper planter? should one use striped or patterned
wall paper with them? do you need more than one tenor as a doorstop?
ANY MORE STUPID COMMENTS???????????
Tad Myers
Theodore Le boeuf wrote:
I just remembered, you're the doorknob who claimed to have proof that Hardy was
making pipes in Pakistan and shipping them to Scotland and putting his name on
them. You were going to go to Pakistan and show everybody the proof.
I retract my previous question, I should never have questioned your
intelligence, you already demonstrated that you are an imbecile. I apologize for
ever questioning something that you yourself have so aptly demonstrated!
Luramao
Pakis can't make good pipes now, then teach them how! Like the hack
pipers, if you think they stink, then try to help them so they c an
learn to do better. Maybe the Pakis will learn to make better pipes in
the future now. But $1000 US for a Paki plastic set? NOBODY'S GOING
TO BUY THEM!! When we can buy Dunbars or similar proven, and at least
ok quality, pipes - for prices from $600 and up, who's gonna take a
chance on Pakis that may or may not be becoming up to snuff for $1000?
That seems way overpriced - and why so high? I mean, aren't these guys
supposedly working for 10 cents a day?
And by the way, the Lark in the Morning catalogue advertises that they
sell "high quality" Paki blackwood pipes. They also have a statement
in there that they have observed name-brand "Scottish" blackwood pipes
being made in Pakistan, then being sold as Scottish made, high quality
stuff. Anybody know if there's any truth to this?
Theodore Le boeuf
I go through has offered to send me a ticket to pakistan. Mostly to
bring a few pipes over their myself so i dont have to worry about the
damage through customs, and I can show them how the instrument is played
and how to make the reeds.
Everyone complains about Pakistani made pipes, so I am going to solve
that problem. Of course I cant help all the makers, so I will help 1 or
2, their is a few Hundred makers in Sialkot alone.
Hardie is not making pipes in pakistan. He purchases them from one of
the oldest makers in Sialkot, all he buys is the Drones, Blowpipe, and
accessories. I guess he makes the Bag and Chanter, but Hardie does not
make his own practice chanters.
I can do the same thing, but why not tell the truth on where I buy
everything?
I have a few pipe makers and a few pipers that are willing to help me.
I do not plan on specializing in Highland Bagpipes, but more the Brian
Boru pipes, Scottish Smallpipe, Varius Styles of Uilleann Pipes
(Rowesome, Taylor multi bores), Pastoral pipes, the Spanish Gaita, and a
few French Pipes and some other misc stuff (dudas, Dudys, Volinkas,
Zampognas, or what ever Sean Folsom or Oliver Seeler is intrested in,
they seem to know their stuff).
The choices of materials are Ebonite, Cocus, Ebony, or African
Blackwood. Yes the wood is aged, 12-15 years.
Mount choices are Sterling Silver (Cast or rolled), 3-6 karrot gold
(Rolled), Nickel Silver, Nickel, Brass, Bakelite, Imitation Ivory, Ivory
(with papers), and of course the usuall ugly pot metal (Cheep Aluminum).
And Tad, it sounds like you have some intrest in one of these sets, once
its yours you can do what you want with it, just send your money first
and wait by the front door like a good little boy.
Theodore Le boeuf
Why bother with plastic highland pipes when Dunbar has gotton that
covered?
Considering a Full set of Uilleann Pipes is usualy $3000-6000, $1000 for
a good Full set isnt too bad. Half sets around $600, Practice sets
about $350 or less.
Or a scottish smallpipe for about $300? thats not too bad, thats a
price of a good pipe chanter. I just have to find a good maker to copy.
I was thinking Ray Sloan, those are good pipes.
Any idea's?
Theodore Le boeuf
>
> Actually I had plans in the past on traveling to Pakistan.
Oops, type error, I have plans in the future on traveling to pakistan.
I have heard around winter time is the best time.
Tad Myers
Theodore Le boeuf wrote:
>
> Hardie is not making pipes in pakistan. He purchases them from one of
> the oldest makers in Sialkot, all he buys is the Drones, Blowpipe, and
> accessories. I guess he makes the Bag and Chanter, but Hardie does not
> make his own practice chanters.
I'll make this simple so you can understand it...Bullshit! Not only are you
a liar but you're a bad one to boot!
Tad
Tad Myers
Theodore Le boeuf
you know got reamed on one of these sets, not reason to get mad at me
for it. Im just saying how it is. Hardie's were made in Pakistan, just
like Nike is made in India and Pakistan, sometimes with varius stamps on
it of where it was made. Name 1 Highland pipe maker that doesnt use
Pakistani made parts?
Mike
Zudupiper
>bandwidth
>defending your F****** Paki Trash!
Bandwidth is free, and most people's time isn't very valuable. I don't
consider yours valuable at all, and in fact you probably owe us.
You're in it for the money! Ripping off
>innocent students for personal gain! Naughty, naughty, naughty!
You don't have a clue what you're talking about, and you're making a fool of
yourself. Go back and read DejaNews on this thread.
I bought the set (in its latest configuration) for $300, and sold it to another
student for $400, and will buy it back for $200 if she doesn't drive over the
pipes with the station wagon. And sell it to the next student, if they want
it, for $300.
Your victims -- I means students, wouldn't
>feel the need to sell back their instruments to you, at a 50% loss, if they
>started out with a quality set of pipes, now would they? Tom
You don't have a clue, do you? Read the thread again.
It's only because the pipes are cheap to begin with that I even do this. One
set, 3 owners so far, 2 students have graduated from the pakis to either Krons
or Robertsons. I do this more as a favor to my students, and because I like to
see how good I can make these puppies sound.
You can avoid the embarrassment of looking like an ass next time, if you read a
little more of the thread before giving us your misinformed opinions.
Zu
Pipertommy
I was teasing you, which I now realise was a waste of everybody's time! Sorry
entire NG world, for teasing your paki guru! Tom
Rojo2G
>sell "high quality" Paki blackwood pipes. They also have a statement
>in there that they have observed name-brand "Scottish" blackwood >pipes
Who are the ' they' in this? The salesman that set up the account?
I have seen the rosewood pipes and don't feel good about Lark in the Morning
offering them.
Daniel Jackson
Force has its fighter planes grounded for maintenance....
JSLOANPR
>that problem. Of course I cant help all the makers, so I will help 1 or
>2, their is a few Hundred makers in Sialkot alone.
A B-52 strike would wipe out the whole nest!
Jim
Bill Carr
Bagpiper.com. A bit further on there are also a couple of adds warning people
not to be sucked in by the Paki claims of top quality, low priced bagpipes.
These folk have been burned before.
I also noticed the name of the Paki advertisers was "K.M. Butt"
Not hard to figure out what that stands for. (Kiss My Butt?)
Sounds like a real serious operation.
Bill C
me...@skyway.usask.ca
>>Everyone complains about Pakistani made pipes, so I am going to solve
>>that problem. Of course I cant help all the makers, so I will help 1 or
>>2, their is a few Hundred makers in Sialkot alone.
>
>A B-52 strike would wipe out the whole nest!
>
>Jim
Paul Hinson
Name 1 Highland pipe maker that doesnt use
> Pakistani made parts?
> Mike
Dunbar, Gibson, Naill, Shepherd..........
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>And by the way, the Lark in the Morning catalogue advertises that they
>sell "high quality" Paki blackwood pipes. They also have a statement
>in there that they have observed name-brand "Scottish" blackwood pipes
>being made in Pakistan, then being sold as Scottish made, high quality
>stuff. Anybody know if there's any truth to this?
>
Yes, RG Hardie was going to start suing anyone making these claims
again the firm just a few months back. Then they realized that the
prospect of buying pipes of at least Pakistani quality was actually
provided a sales boost and instilled slightly greater confidence in
the customer.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
Well, if you get a set of UP together or ssp, let me see a beta
version and I'll do what I can for you. However, Mideast tried this
before and I don't think it was all that successful. Gremlin has to
rework them all in England and make reeds for them, and then they cost
nearly as much as a real set of UP.
Royce
Zudupiper
>entire NG world, for teasing your paki guru! Tom
>
Spun me right up, too! Nicely done.
However, I don't claim the title "paki guru"...I think that belongs to Mike
Leboeuf.
Paki swami, maybe.
Do you do commission work? IE, if I make it worth your while, can you spin
somebody else up?
Zu
invisi...@prodigy.net
>Pakistani made parts?
What kind of statement is that? You must be very naive to say something so
absurd. There are plenty of premium pipes that have no Pakistani parts.
Get a clue.
Rojo2G
has already taken it to a fine art.
Hinmon
Wm. SINCLAIR!
Bill
Theodore Le boeuf wrote in message <37B3A2...@worldnet.att.net>...
>Pakistani made parts?
>Mike
Theodore Le boeuf
>
> The best time to fly to Pakistan right now would be when the Indian Air
> Force has its fighter planes grounded for maintenance....
But its monsoon season.
Theodore Le boeuf
All come from Pakistan. $7.50 a set. Easily marked up to $35.00.
Told ya all pipe makers use pakistani parts.
Alot also buy Mouthpiece Tips, Practice chanter tips, and junk like
that.
I highy doubt that their is some special company in Scotland that is
making Silk and wood drone cords.
Mike
Theodore Le boeuf
>
> >Drone Cords.
> >All come from Pakistan. $7.50 a set. Easily marked up to $35.00.
> >Told ya all pipe makers use pakistani parts.
>
> are tons of makers who use NO Paki parts whatsoever! (the smart ones) Watch
> this list grow...
> Bill
> Mar a bha, mar a tha,
> mar a bhitheas gu brath,
> ri traghadh's ri lionadh.
Sure they do,, Just send me the makers address to prove it. So Kron is
buying Cords that are made in Pakistan, sent to Scotland, and retailed
in Scotland. You see that alot dont you?? I have seen these great belt
buckles with thistles in the center, or sourounded by thistles, or
celtic designs. I buy the same buckles, Chrome plated brass for $7.50.
Now any pipe maker is just stupid to pay more than $20 for a set of
$7.50 drone cords.
Mike
Paul Hinson
>
> Drone Cords.
> All come from Pakistan. $7.50 a set. Easily marked up to $35.00.
> Told ya all pipe makers use pakistani parts.
> that.
> Mike
Easy enough to say. Let's see your proof.
Theodore Le boeuf
Their easy enough to point out,, they are the pipers walking around with
Big Heads, which I would say are most pipers in here. Big Heads, Narrow
Minds.
Theodore Le boeuf
Gillanders and Macleod, buys, Drone Cords, Bag covers, Mouthpieces and
Pr chanter tips. Some people in California do the same thing for retail
on David Nail pipes, but I wont say the retailers name, he is a good
friend. Actually, the cords cost around $3-4 a pair from the main
company who makes them in Sialkot, the wrest of the makers buy from him
and retail around $7.50-$8.00
Kron company wont tell anyone anything, they keep to themselves, or they
will say 'ive heard that', usually meaning yes, but rarely even that.
Or bring the idea up to any maker in scotland, say that you found a good
company in pakistan that makes drone cords for about $8 a set, they will
most likely say they have their own makers.
Hell,, even a pipe maker in Scotland was talking to me on AIM, asking to
give him makers addresses in pakistan because he wanted the same cords,
mouthpieces and all that junk that Gillanders was buying.
I would call around to prove my point, but my phone bill is always high
enough.
You can buy drone cords for about $7 a set, or you can be an idiot and
buy the same cords for $35-45 or 20 pounds sterling.
Do I need to research this deeper for the ignorant pipers with big
heads?
The company in pakistan was actually the first company to start making
bagpipes, Sharp Co knows of them sharp recieved I think 7 Blackwood
pipes with Imitation ivory mounts in 1986, but he still hasnt paid him,,
now thats a good business man.
I can realy stir up some shit now!!! Peter Henderson was friends with a
man named Hakam Din in Sialkot City, he didnt buy the drones itself from
him, but he baught the Solid Ivory mounts and accessories from him. But
ivory is ivory no matter what elephant it came from.
I will talk with the owner of the company and see if he has any letters
by Mr Henderson himself, then I can scan them, and prove that.
Talk to you all later,
Mike
Theodore Le boeuf
I know I am, its getting me plenty of business, I intended on reading
hate e-mail, but instead I have had orders for Henderson Coppies when
they are complete.
Cool eh???
Mike
Bagpiip
>All come from Pakistan. $7.50 a set. Easily marked up to $35.00.
>Told ya all pipe makers use pakistani parts.
WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!! Krons drone cords and tassles are made in Britain. There
Paul Hinson
>
> Gillanders and Macleod, buys, Drone Cords, Bag covers, Mouthpieces and
> Pr chanter tips. Some people in California do the same thing for retail
> on David Nail pipes, but I wont say the retailers name, he is a good
> friend.
I wonder what Les Cowel would have to say about that.
Until you provide documented proof, I doubt you'll have many believers.
Ccc31807
reply to your previous post and an attempt to inject some prespective into the
discussion.
You wrote:
>Pakistan...more need not be said.
>Thats the scarry part, that you are teaching and allowing your students to
>throw
>their money and time away on Paki garbage!
>Like an upgrade to a real pipe.
>New instructor...priceless.
etc. Now, just four questions.
1. Have you examined every single pipe made in Pakistan to see if all are
garbage?
2. Is there something about people who live in Pakistan (maybe in their genes)
that necessarily renders them incapable of making a good bagpipe?
3. Is there something about the country, maybe something in the air or water,
that renders the land incapable of producing a good bagpipe?
4. Is this statement irrelevant to Pakistani pipes: "Absence of evidence is
not evidence of absence?"
You are obviously a person of some intellegence, experience, and education,
especially when it comes to piping, and your answers to all four questions
should ben "No." But evidently you believe that the answer is, "Yes," to some
or all of these question. I would be grateful if you would give us your
thoughts on this.
And in case I am being too indirect, I will be plain - Pakistan can produce a
fine a pipe as ever made in Scotland, and a Pakistani can produce a fine a pipe
as ever made by a Scot, and just because you have not seen one does not mean
that it doesn't exist. You are mistaken in categorically condeming Paki pipes,
even if you are right in saying that every Paki pipe you have seen is
"garbage."
Bagpiip
>Minds.
Yes, if you don't acknowledge that everything in the universe is made in
Pakiland, and that anything that claims it was made somewhere else was REALLY
secretly made in Pakiland, then were "narrow minded"?????? Your right then,
there is a lot of narrow minded people here. Your outnumbered by at least 30 to
1, but your right, and the worlds wrong. Just keep that thought, and work with
it...
Bagpiip
Mr LeBoob,
I'm sorry to burst your bubble but I don't believe for a moment, nor do I think
anyone else here does, that you are getting any orders for your Puki garbage
because of anything you wrote here. See my post in the other thread about your
ludicrous claim that ALL makers use Puki parts. Are you inhaling as you burn
the rejected junk your try to sell?
Name the materials in my drone cords again? BZZZZZZZT! Wrong! You tell us how
all drone cords come from Pukiland, but you can't even name the materials in
mine. How credible can you be.
They'll always be a sucker waiting to get your cheap imitation pipes, but don't
try telling those who know better that all pipes are secretly made in Pukiland,
and then resold as name brands. Just because a few crooks in Punkiland have a
stamp with certain makers name, and they deliberately stamp false names into
their garbage, then THEY resell their crap as the real thing, doesn't make a
pile of crap into a pile of gold.
end of thread for me!
madman
> will say 'ive heard that', usually meaning yes, but rarely even that.
Please keep C.E. Kron & Co. out of this mess .
(although I did enjoy the Hardie -bashing)
madman
>
> Bagpiip wrote:
> >
> > >Drone Cords.
> > >All come from Pakistan. $7.50 a set. Easily marked up to $35.00.
> > >Told ya all pipe makers use pakistani parts.
> >
> > WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!! Krons drone cords and tassles are made in Britain. There
> > are tons of makers who use NO Paki parts whatsoever! (the smart ones) Watch
> > this list grow...
> > Mar a bha, mar a tha,
> > mar a bhitheas gu brath,
> > ri traghadh's ri lionadh.
>
Now shut the fuck up.
>So Kron is
> buying Cords that are made in Pakistan, sent to Scotland, and retailed
> in Scotland.
See above, and again,shut the fuck up.
> You see that alot dont you??
All I see is a lot of bullshit.
> buckles with thistles in the center, or sourounded by thistles, or
> celtic designs. I buy the same buckles, Chrome plated brass for $7.50.
> Now any pipe maker is just stupid to pay more than $20 for a set of
> $7.50 drone cords.
If the pakis sold them for .50 cents it would still be a rip-off.
No one wants cords and tassles that smell like cow-dung.
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>Theodore Le boeuf wrote:
> Name 1 Highland pipe maker that doesnt use
>> Pakistani made parts?
>> Mike
>
>Dunbar, Gibson, Naill, Shepherd..........
Hey, even Gregg Sharpe doesn't use Paki parts.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
<Ted...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Drone Cords.
>All come from Pakistan. $7.50 a set. Easily marked up to $35.00.
>Told ya all pipe makers use pakistani parts.
>Alot also buy Mouthpiece Tips, Practice chanter tips, and junk like
>that.
>I highy doubt that their is some special company in Scotland that is
>making Silk and wood drone cords.
>Mike
Interestingly enough, pipe makers don't make cords so it doesn't
really matter who makes the cords and throws them on the pipes,
because the maker has nothing to do with it. What you're saying is
dealers throw cheap cords on, big deal. And there are several
companies in Scotland making cords, and they are immediately
intentifiable as better if now incredibly better than the Paki ones.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
>etc. Now, just four questions.
>1. Have you examined every single pipe made in Pakistan to see if all are
>garbage?
Ought to be the maker and retailer's job to prove to me there's even a
single set that isn't garbage. (Not speaking for Tad, but hey, it's an
open letter.)
>2. Is there something about people who live in Pakistan (maybe in their genes)
>that necessarily renders them incapable of making a good bagpipe?
Yes. It's called an inherently bad ear and total disinterest in the
product on any level other than making a buck out of it.
>3. Is there something about the country, maybe something in the air or water,
>that renders the land incapable of producing a good bagpipe?
Yes, their cane is only serviceable, and there are no idiginous
hardwoods worth using in bagpipes. Furthermore, related to #3, the
cultural mandate has trained them from infancy to expect any bagpipe
to sound rather different than the state-of-the-art Great Highland
Bagpipe we've all come to know and love.
>4. Is this statement irrelevant to Pakistani pipes: "Absence of evidence is
>not evidence of absence?"
No, absence of a product is proof that the product doesn't exist. You
deal, you claim, you provide the product. Haven't seen or heard it
yet, just a lot of smoke blown out of a lot of big asses.
>
>You are obviously a person of some intellegence, experience, and education,
>especially when it comes to piping, and your answers to all four questions
>should ben "No." But evidently you believe that the answer is, "Yes," to some
>or all of these question. I would be grateful if you would give us your
>thoughts on this.
I'm sure he'll do a job on you shortly.
>
>And in case I am being too indirect, I will be plain - Pakistan can produce a
>fine a pipe as ever made in Scotland, and a Pakistani can produce a fine a pipe
>as ever made by a Scot, and just because you have not seen one does not mean
>that it doesn't exist. You are mistaken in categorically condeming Paki pipes,
>even if you are right in saying that every Paki pipe you have seen is
>"garbage."
>
Again this is bullshit of the first order, unless you send me
immediately this great Pakistani set of pipes. And send me a Pakistani
UP, since these are all designed and copied with the care and
expertise you claim exists in only the last 10 years, and even in this
short time they too have earned the universal reputation as uplayable
pieces of blackwood (uh, actually striped ebony) crap. Tim Britton as
a matter of fact has made a pretty good busines out of trying to
rescue fools from purchase of same by completely reboring and reeding
them to make at least some useable noise.
Royce
(If they're good pipes, I'll be the first to say so. You show me the
set.)
Tad Myers
Ccc31807 wrote:
> Tad - This is not a flame, nor is it a defense of Pakistani pipes. It is a
> reply to your previous post and an attempt to inject some prespective into the
> discussion.
>
> You wrote:
>
> >Pakistan...more need not be said.
> >Thats the scarry part, that you are teaching and allowing your students to
> >throw
> >their money and time away on Paki garbage!
> >Like an upgrade to a real pipe.
> >New instructor...priceless.
>
> etc. Now, just four questions.
> 1. Have you examined every single pipe made in Pakistan to see if all are
> garbage
no, that's a fools erand...if i see ten sets of Paki pipes and all are garbage i
make a generalization that all Paki pipes are garbage because trying to find the
extremely few Paki pipes that are worth more than just burning is a waste of time
when so many reputable quality makers exist. e.g. Kron (though i think Dave
Atherton is a complete ass), Gibson, Naill, Shepard, Kintail/Drumran/Glenn,
Fletcher, Petigrew, Sinclair, Gillanders...the list goes on.
> 2. Is there something about people who live in Pakistan (maybe in their genes)
> that necessarily renders them incapable of making a good bagpipe?
Absolutely not. This has nothing to do with ethnicity and i won't be biting on that
red herring!
> 3. Is there something about the country, maybe something in the air or water,
> that renders the land incapable of producing a good bagpipe?
Again...red herring.
> 4. Is this statement irrelevant to Pakistani pipes: "Absence of evidence is
> not evidence of absence?"
No, when taking a sample of a population it is not necessary to check the entire
population, just enough to get a representative sample. Take a statistics class.
When the evidence of the representative population (i.e. 10+ sets) shows that the
workmanship is crude at best and completely nonfunctional at worst then one may
make a general statement that Paki pipes with significantly little variation are in
the best light substandard. ipso facto...GARBAGE
> You are obviously a person of some intellegence, experience, and education,
> especially when it comes to piping, and your answers to all four questions
> should ben "No." But evidently you believe that the answer is, "Yes," to some
> or all of these question. I would be grateful if you would give us your
> thoughts on this.
>
> And in case I am being too indirect, I will be plain - Pakistan can produce a
> fine a pipe as ever made in Scotland, and a Pakistani can produce a fine a pipe
> as ever made by a Scot, and just because you have not seen one does not mean
> that it doesn't exist. You are mistaken in categorically condeming Paki pipes,
> even if you are right in saying that every Paki pipe you have seen is
> "garbage."
If every butterfly I see is blue then the generalization that butterflies are blue
is not incorrect just skewed based on the information available. EVERY!, and i mean
without exception, set of Pakistani made pipes that I have seen (and I've seen way
too many of them) has been unfit to play. The FACT that every set I've ever had the
misfortune to work with has required extensive refitting and reworking simply to
make it functional leads me to believe that the products that come out of Pakistan
that are called bagpipes are being made by people who
1) don't know what a bagpipe is
2) don't care what a bagpipe is supposed to sound like
3) are trying to make instruments fast and cheap to sell to the unwary
4) are making them with substandard materials
5) are untrained laborers
I am not reassured by pics of children sitting on the ground turning a drone top
with a foot peddle Lathe and cutting it with a hand held knife.
A slight aside to highlight my point. I don't like Dave Atherton and i think
Charlie Kron has made an enormous mistake in having that pin head as an employee. I
don't particularly like their chanter pitch or balance but that's my opinion and
like assholes...everyones got one. But for all my bitching about Kron they still
make a fine bagpipe and the things i'm bitching about are infinitesimal when
compared to the product coming out of Pakistan. Real pipemakers take the time to
perfect their instrument. They invest countless hours refitting and tweaking to
come up with a product that meets the demand for high quality instruments. NO maker
in Pakistan spends any time trying to perfect his instrument. NO maker in Pakistan
spends any time discussing the minute details of their product with knowledgeable
musicians. Whether or not some maker in Pakistan can make a good visual knockoff is
irrelevant, they still haven't figured out what the hell the instrument is supposed
to sound like!
Its kinda like the Yugo...it looked kinda like a car until you got in and drove it!
And that's all i have to say about that.
Tad
Rojo2G
of it.
diddly. How can they care about quality?
Theodore Le boeuf
> immediately this great Pakistani set of pipes. And send me a Pakistani
> UP, since these are all designed and copied with the care and
> expertise you claim exists in only the last 10 years, and even in this
> short time they too have earned the universal reputation as uplayable
> pieces of blackwood (uh, actually striped ebony) crap. Tim Britton as
> a matter of fact has made a pretty good busines out of trying to
> rescue fools from purchase of same by completely reboring and reeding
> them to make at least some useable noise.
>
> Royce
>
> (If they're good pipes, I'll be the first to say so. You show me the
> set.)
I am having a few more made right now, The Button mount type. Dont
expect anything with the chanter, because im not trying to upgrade their
chanters, I will sell them with some other makers chanter.
The Uilleann Pipes are Not complete, and wont be complete for a while.
Maybe practice sets will be ready in a few months, but 1/2 and full sets
still have a while to go.
Royce,
Contact me at MikeL...@hotmail.com and leave me your address, when
the pipes come in I will send you a set.
Mike
madman
>
> A slight aside to highlight my point. I don't like Dave Atherton and i think
> Charlie Kron has made an enormous mistake in having that pin head as an employee.
Er, um, I'm actually co-owner.
Let's recapitulate a few things:
1)I take cheap -shot at your comrade/liberal good buddy John Lennon,and
you offer up a snappy retort in the form of"How about a dissertation on
why Lennon sucked",
In fact I never said he did suck,*you did*,and if you in fact do require
a dissertation
or some form of reasoning as to why *I* don't like his music,may I
suggest that
you get your ass down to your local Tower Records or Sam Goody or
whatever retail record chain you've got out there in Minnesota and buy
my CD..the first track alone should suffice.
2)Then,I think you say something along the lines of "Get your head out
of your ass",
and basically "your product is shit",and in return I say "Then,why,if
its so shitty,
does Willie McCallum love them so much"..and you quickly changed your
tune.
3)Then I point out that indeed the pipe-makers you just condemned are
the sole owners of the lathes and tooling that made the *original* David
Glen drones which your so-called,
"Repro Glens" are based on..and what you offer in return is something to
the effect of
"90 year old lathes are shit".
The truth of the matter is that you are the guy with his head in his
ass,and if you had bothered to take it out on occasion,you might have
learned that when David Glen Himself was using those two lathes they
were already OVER 90 years old.
So by virtue of your own condemnation,the original pipes that your
so-called
Repro or Repo "Glens" were based on, must be complete junk because by
your admission,
"you can't hold a tolerance on a 90 year old lathe".
So either you are a complete fool who admittedly plays a piece of shit
bagpipe,
or you're just a whining cry-baby who thinks its fun to comfortably run
his mouth.
Either way,I don't give a damn.
4) As far as the chanter is concerned...Don't worry Tad,its already been
blessed by the same asses you've been kissing in Canada,namely the
78th,so its OK if you admit to wanting one.
What really is burning you up is that I'm a guy who doesn't have to kiss
your ass,
or anyone elses,because I've already accomplished all those things you
only wish
you could.
You've pretty much accused me of being everything from a thief,a liar,
to the guy who started the Chinese Opium Wars.
Tha facts are(as Charlie so eloquently,and in typical politically
correct fashion)
you couldn't be farther from the truth.
Maybe you should startc the "tad myers"-psychic hotline..you seem to be
really good
at assesing things from 2000 miles away.
Keep practicing hard,maybe someday we'll call you Royce Jr.
On behalf of CE Kron & Co....Fuck Off
Theodore Le boeuf
Show me where these pictures are of children sitting on the ground and
turning pipes.. I highly doubt their is one.. It could be a father
teaching his son how to make the pipes, did you think of that??
Well tad, you have realy proved to be a fucking idiot.
Lets see what else you have to gripe over..
I never said you were forced to buy pipes from pakistan. I am just
making a statement that their is a few (very few) good pipe makers over
their. Some of the companies have been their since 1850, and at the
time through the early 1900's the pipes were being baught by the british
army.
Before the British left india, one of the makers that I go through was
encouraged to put "Approved Govt Contractors by His Majesty the King"
and they put this seal on all bagpipes until the british left india.
Now tad, you may gripe and whine and call me a liar.
madman
> extremely few Paki pipes that are worth more than just burning is a waste of time
> when so many reputable quality makers exist. e.g. Kron (though i think Dave
> Atherton is a complete ass), Gibson, Naill, Shepard, Kintail/Drumran/Glenn,
> Fletcher, Petigrew, Sinclair, Gillanders...the list goes on.
Bagpipes 101...
"Shepard"..is spelled Sheperd
"Petigrew"..is spelled Pettigrew
Of course at this point we all know that you might play "Glenns"..
But the rest of the piping world plays Glens.
Will the real "complete ass" please stand-up.
Theodore Le boeuf
anything. But having upwards of 30 bagpipe makers in 1 shop, they can
take their time. But they can also produce 200-300 junk pipes a month.
Mike
Theodore Le boeuf
>
> Tad Myers wrote:
> > extremely few Paki pipes that are worth more than just burning is a waste of time
> > when so many reputable quality makers exist. e.g. Kron (though i think Dave
> > Atherton is a complete ass), Gibson, Naill, Shepard, Kintail/Drumran/Glenn,
> > Fletcher, Petigrew, Sinclair, Gillanders...the list goes on.
>
> "Shepard"..is spelled Sheperd
> "Petigrew"..is spelled Pettigrew
> Of course at this point we all know that you might play "Glenns"..
> But the rest of the piping world plays Glens.
> Will the real "complete ass" please stand-up.
one of their practice chanters.
Mike
Theodore Le boeuf
>
> Did anyone see the 60 Minutes report in 1993 where they compared Scottish to Pakistani
> made bagpipes?
>
> Probably not eh?..... as it was on Australian 60 minutes.
>
> Anyway they went to Pakistan, to a bagpipe factory, and there were all these boys
> sitting around on the floor with foot peddle lathes turning out bagpipe parts and
> throwing them into pile of different drone parts. Others where collecting the parts for
> assembly further down the line. The wood was pine colored. The factory owner was
> adamant that his bagpipes were among he best in the world.
>
> Bill C
>
> Tad Myers wrote:
>
> > I am not reassured by pics of children sitting on the ground turning a drone top
> > with a foot peddle Lathe and cutting it with a hand held knife.
That must have been a realy old shop, or just a set up by 60 min. They
use Metal Lathes, not Pedal or plain wood lathes.
If you have seen the news in the pass or checked cnn.com you will see
that child labour has been abolished in pakistan, their is no kids
sewing footballs or kids making bagpipes.
Bagpiip
>in there that they have observed name-brand "Scottish" blackwood pipes
>being made in Pakistan, then being sold as Scottish made, high quality
>stuff. Anybody know if there's any truth to this?
The truth is, unscrupulous PAKI dealers stamp scottish makers names unto their
pipes, then use them as evidence that they "really" make them. There has been
over the years a few makers who were rumored to have had some parts or pipes
made there, but they were know as cheap crappy pipes at that time anyways, so
everyone was already aware of quality issues with those brands (who quickly
stopped buying/having made pipes in Pakistan.)
Royce Lerwick
>> total disinterest in the product on any level other than making a buck >out
>of it.
>I doubt if the workers own the means of production. The actual makers don't get
>diddly. How can they care about quality?
The workers don't give a damn about bagpipes either, so having them in
charge wouldn't make any difference anyway. The point is, even given a
fully unionized Worker's Paradise, without somebody who know the
instrument and played it well to debug every phase of production you
simply couldn't leave them to their own devices.
Royce
Tad Myers
madman wrote:
> Tad Myers wrote:
> > extremely few Paki pipes that are worth more than just burning is a waste of time
> > when so many reputable quality makers exist. e.g. Kron (though i think Dave
> > Atherton is a complete ass), Gibson, Naill, Shepard, Kintail/Drumran/Glenn,
> > Fletcher, Petigrew, Sinclair, Gillanders...the list goes on.
>
> Bagpipes 101...
> "Shepard"..is spelled Sheperd
> "Petigrew"..is spelled Pettigrew
> Of course at this point we all know that you might play "Glenns"..
> But the rest of the piping world plays Glens.
> Will the real "complete ass" please stand-up.
Aw, sweetpea...i thought you loved me for getting you a raise.
Bill Carr
made bagpipes?
Probably not eh?..... as it was on Australian 60 minutes.
Anyway they went to Pakistan, to a bagpipe factory, and there were all these boys
sitting around on the floor with foot peddle lathes turning out bagpipe parts and
throwing them into pile of different drone parts. Others where collecting the parts for
assembly further down the line. The wood was pine colored. The factory owner was
adamant that his bagpipes were among he best in the world.
Bill C
Bill Carr
the lathes are upgraded too but I bet they still throw the finished
parts into a pile on the floor and I'll bet the wood is still the same
color.
Actually I've got a color catalogue from "xxxxxxx" in Sialkot. Lots of
different wooden instruments, including bagpipes. It all looks shoddy,
whichever way you look at it. Well.... expect for the bag covers and
cords. I've seen lots of them on Scottish made pipes, including my own.
I've also had umpteen emails from the owner requesting that I
immediately place an order for his "very finest quality and best priced
merchandise"
Jeez..... I'm half expecting him banging at my door soon...... If he
gets past the dog. Think so..!
Oh yes... for the dog lovers... He's a Siberian Husky/Gordon Setter
cross named Gromit. Now theres a combination. He likes a drop of Vodka
with his Whiskey too.
Bill C
Theodore Le oeuf wrote:
> Bill Carr wrote:
> >
> > Did anyone see the 60 Minutes report in 1993 where they compared Scottish to Pakistani
> > made bagpipes?
> >
>
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>Oh yes... for the dog lovers... He's a Siberian Husky/Gordon Setter
>cross named Gromit. Now theres a combination. He likes a drop of Vodka
>with his Whiskey too.
Cracking toast, Gromit.
Royce
(Or was that "Cracking drones Gromit?")
Tim Sullivan
> >cross named Gromit. Now theres a combination. He likes a drop of Vodka
> >with his Whiskey too.
>
> Cracking toast, Gromit.
>
> Royce
>
> (Or was that "Cracking drones Gromit?")
Close. It was "Paki drones, vomit."
Theodore Le boeuf
drone cords with it.
Mike
br...@ais.com
{SCREEN_USER_NAME}@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> Actually I had plans in the past on traveling to Pakistan. The
> company I go through has offered to send me a ticket to pakistan.
> [...]
> The choices of materials are Ebonite, Cocus, Ebony, or African
> Blackwood. Yes the wood is aged, 12-15 years.
It is _HIGHLY_ doubtful that any pipe maker is able to make any
quantity of pipes out of true cocus wood nowadays, for reasons
that I have outlined elsewhere (basically the wood has been logged
out to the point that there are not sufficient quantities of mature
trees for harvesting it to be commercially viable). It is also
_HIGHLY_ doubtful that such sets could be considered "affordable"
(if you could find any instrument quality wood at all, they would be
even more expensive than blackwood sets). And thirdly, it is _HIGHLY_
doubtful that a maker in Pakistan would use such a wood since it
grows half a world away from him!
There have been some inferior woods used in Pakistani sets that
have been _MISREPRESENTED_ as cocus wood, but this is hardly a
selling point!
This kind of gaffe pretty much eliminates your credibility.
I will admit that there is no particularly good reason why a pipe
maker in Pakistan couldn't in principle make as good a set as a pipe
maker anywhere else, but such sets must be vanishingly rare if they
exist at all. I've never seen nor heard of a set of Paki's that
were above the "low side of mediocre" and most are downright junk.
Sometimes you can make them sort of serviceable by putting a lot of
refinishing work into them; sometimes you can't.
As for other parts of pipes such as bag covers and the like, it's
quite possible that some of them do come from Pakistan. But that's
hardly the only place in the world that still makes cloth!! In fact
there are many textile mills and clothing makers still in the US, let
alone other countries. In any event, as others have noted, the pipe
makers don't make bags or bag covers or tassels - that's done by the
retailer, not the pipe maker. The main parts along that line that the
pipe makers are likely to buy would be things like the mounts. Again,
perhaps some of them are made in Pakistan, but so what? The issue
isn't what's glued onto the outside of the pipe but what it sounds
like (something that most of the Pakistani makers don't seem to quite
understand yet).
Good luck trying to upgrade the Pakistani pipe production - it could
use all the help it can get. I'm not going to hold my breath on your
success however; these things have been around for quite a while and
if anything the quality has been getting _worse_ rather than better.
Bruce C. Wright
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Theodore Le boeuf
Well then what do you want to call the wood? This is what it has been
called for years. I do have a few items made of this "Eastern" Cocus
cocus wood, and it is a damn hard wood. I have some drum sticks and a
Bb flute made of it and it is a very good wood, but I dont know what to
compare it to. It is harder than N. Rock Maple, maybe its another thats
in the rosewood family.
It sounds like you know all about this, so you explain, what is it??
In pakistan they probably just compared it to a wood that was most
similar to this wood. Just like Ebony that is from the eastern area
(India, Pakistan), it looks similar to the African ebony, so thats what
its called. Sheesham wood looks similar to Rosewood, you get the idea.
I am just telling you the materials are made from, I never said this is
"the Well Known and very expencive Cocus wood that was used on pipes in
the 1800's", it is Cocus wood from Pakistan, so you should already know
what it is.
Mike
Blair Piper
and tassels were like none I'd ever heard! Must've been made in Scotland!
....Blair
Theodore Le boeuf wrote in message >Well when I send you the Pakistani made
Chris Hamilton
wrote:
>And by the way, the Lark in the Morning catalogue advertises that they
>sell "high quality" Paki blackwood pipes. They also have a statement
>in there that they have observed name-brand "Scottish" blackwood pipes
>being made in Pakistan, then being sold as Scottish made, high quality
>stuff. Anybody know if there's any truth to this?
I have heard from a reputable source that many Scottish makers have
some wood-turning done in Pakistan. A common practice.
Low-cost labor, quality work if done to the right specs and using the
right materials, I guess. Then sent on back to Scotland for
finishing.
NOT the same thing as assembling a poor instrument from shoddy
material and indifferent craftsmanship. That's the real Paki shite we
all know and love. That's where they built the reputation.
Chris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Hamilton -- Tone...@erols.com
City of Washington Pipe Band
http://www.serve.com/cowpb/chamilton.html
Bagpiip
>what it is.
Firewood?
br...@ais.com
{SCREEN_USER_NAME}@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> br...@ais.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <37B392...@worldnet.att.net>,
> > {SCREEN_USER_NAME}@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> > > Actually I had plans in the past on traveling to Pakistan. The
> > > company I go through has offered to send me a ticket to pakistan.
> > > [...]
> > > The choices of materials are Ebonite, Cocus, Ebony, or African
> > > Blackwood. Yes the wood is aged, 12-15 years.
> >
> > It is _HIGHLY_ doubtful that any pipe maker is able to make any
> > quantity of pipes out of true cocus wood nowadays, for reasons
> > that I have outlined elsewhere (basically the wood has been logged
> > out to the point that there are not sufficient quantities of mature
> > trees for harvesting it to be commercially viable). It is also
> > _HIGHLY_ doubtful that such sets could be considered "affordable"
> > (if you could find any instrument quality wood at all, they would be
> > even more expensive than blackwood sets). And thirdly, it is
> > _HIGHLY_ doubtful that a maker in Pakistan would use such a wood
> > since it grows half a world away from him!
> >
> > There have been some inferior woods used in Pakistani sets that
> > have been _MISREPRESENTED_ as cocus wood, but this is hardly a
> > selling point!
>
> been called for years. I do have a few items made of this "Eastern"
> Cocus cocus wood, and it is a damn hard wood. I have some drum
> sticks and a Bb flute made of it and it is a very good wood, but I
> dont know what to compare it to. It is harder than N. Rock Maple,
> maybe its another thats in the rosewood family. It sounds like you
> know all about this, so you explain, what is it?? In pakistan they
> probably just compared it to a wood that was most similar to this
> wood. Just like Ebony that is from the eastern area (India,
> Pakistan), it looks similar to the African ebony, so thats what
> its called. Sheesham wood looks similar to Rosewood, you get the
> idea.
I have no idea what the wood is. My objection is that calling it
"cocus" is quite misleading, since it is a nearly certain bet that
it isn't closely related to the "cocus" that everyone in the piping
community is familiar with.
The use of the name "cocus" is probably from the days of the Raj,
which places it at about 200 years old at the outside, and is most
likely just the name that they use when translating into English.
Surely there is a local name for the wood, that isn't an English
borrowing. Why not just use that? Or failing that, what's wrong
with calling it "eastern cocus" which would be less misleading? The
fact that this kind of honesty is never practiced makes it appear
that they are just trying to cheat their customers.
> I am just telling you the materials are made from, I never said
> this is "the Well Known and very expencive Cocus wood that was used
> on pipes in the 1800's", it is Cocus wood from Pakistan, so you
> should already know what it is.
> Mike
Unfortunately I really am not enough of a naturalist to be that
familiar with the flora and fauna of the region. I can however
say that I've actually been to the subcontinent, although not to
Sialkot. Considered as a group, you could hardly ask to visit
amoung friendlier peoples. You do see a huge range of quality in
the goods offered, from things as good as any in the West to the
most amazing junk. I was not really looking for bagpipes although
the other musical instruments I happened to encounter were not of
very high quality, but again my purpose wasn't to look for any and
I don't know that the instruments I did see (mostly flutes and the
like) were any worse than the kinds of junk that you find at many
tourist stops in the US. You also have to be careful when dealing
with many of the merchants since some of them are not above
"stretching" the truth (not unlike the West in this respect, but the
problem seems to be worse).
Some of the handicraft work that I saw was however of a very high
quality, and I have no doubt that they would be _able_ to produce
high-quality instruments should they have the appropriate direction
and incentive to do so. They are however very market-driven, and
in this case their main market is to the tourists rather than to the
piping community; and that market is very price-sensitive but not
very quality-sensitive when it comes to musical instruments.
I really would not be surprised if some makers still use pedal lathes
or other equipment considered "primitive" in the West. Certainly many
of the clothing makers still use pedal sewing machines. Some of the
tools and infrastructure still in common use on the subcontinent would
be considered totally unacceptable by most people in the West, though
they are making enormous progress in upgrading their economy. But in
any event this is a red herring - you can certainly make quality goods
with hand tools, it just requires the proper skills and will take
longer, that's all.
The fact remains that I haven't seen any pipe from the subcontinent
that I'd think was a very attractive deal. I'd be the first to admit
it if one of the makers there were to start producing a good pipe, but
so far it has yet to be exhibited and until such time as it is, it
remains a mere theoretical possibility.
madman
> It is _HIGHLY_ doubtful that any pipe maker is able to make any
> quantity of pipes out of true cocus wood nowadays, for reasons
> that I have outlined elsewhere (basically the wood has been logged
> out to the point that there are not sufficient quantities of mature
> trees for harvesting it to be commercially viable).
out
any number of sets,and can get as much instrument grade Cocus as we
want.
The reality is ,that the average joe doesn't even know what cocus is.
We mostly use it for high end repairs.The demand for full sets of drones
made of Cocus,just isn't there.
> It is also
> _HIGHLY_ doubtful that such sets could be considered "affordable"
> (if you could find any instrument quality wood at all, they would be
> even more expensive than blackwood sets).
be somewhere in the ballpark.
And thirdly, it is _HIGHLY_
> doubtful that a maker in Pakistan would use such a wood since it
> grows half a world away from him!
Theodore Le boeuf
> The use of the name "cocus" is probably from the days of the Raj,
> which places it at about 200 years old at the outside, and is most
> likely just the name that they use when translating into English.
> Surely there is a local name for the wood, that isn't an English
> borrowing. Why not just use that? Or failing that, what's wrong
> with calling it "eastern cocus" which would be less misleading? The
> fact that this kind of honesty is never practiced makes it appear
> that they are just trying to cheat their customers.
Unfortunatly they have long forgoton their original name for the wood,
so "EASTERN COCUS WOOD" It is.
Mike
br...@ais.com
athert...@hotmail.com wrote:
> br...@ais.com wrote:
> > It is _HIGHLY_ doubtful that any pipe maker is able to make any
> > quantity of pipes out of true cocus wood nowadays, for reasons
> > that I have outlined elsewhere (basically the wood has been logged
> > out to the point that there are not sufficient quantities of mature
> > trees for harvesting it to be commercially viable).
> That is just not true.We've got at least enough Cocus lying about to
> put out any number of sets,and can get as much instrument grade Cocus
> as we want.
> The reality is ,that the average joe doesn't even know what cocus is.
> We mostly use it for high end repairs.The demand for full sets of
> drones made of Cocus,just isn't there.
I stand corrected. My information had come from several sources, some
of whom did some instrument repair and building as a sideline, and had
indicated that the stuff was almost unobtainable. Clearly, as someone
whose primary business is instrument construction, you evidently have
access to some sources that they were unaware of.
> And thirdly, it is _HIGHLY_
> > doubtful that a maker in Pakistan would use such a wood since it
> > grows half a world away from him!
> I don't think its a matter of geography,..its more a matter of
> economy.
But geography (and geopolitics) have a great deal of influence on
economy. For example, even if all else is equal, you'd have to pay
the shipping both ways. But all else is never equal; for one thing,
the exchange rates are very unfavorable (equivalent goods and services
there are much cheaper when translated into dollars or pounds than
they are in the US or Britain, as long as they aren't imported). For
another thing, the governments on the subcontinent impose very high
duties on imports in an effort to protect local products.
br...@ais.com
{SCREEN_USER_NAME}@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> >
> > The use of the name "cocus" is probably from the days of the Raj,
> > which places it at about 200 years old at the outside, and is most
> > likely just the name that they use when translating into English.
> > Surely there is a local name for the wood, that isn't an English
> > borrowing. Why not just use that? Or failing that, what's wrong
> > with calling it "eastern cocus" which would be less misleading? The
> > fact that this kind of honesty is never practiced makes it appear
> > that they are just trying to cheat their customers.
>
> Unfortunatly they have long forgoton their original name for the wood,
> so "EASTERN COCUS WOOD" It is.
> Mike
Mike or Ted or whatever your name is,
Frankly this seems quite difficult to believe; personally I suspect
that it's more likely that you've just been taken in by a hawker from
the rug bazaar (especially considering how quickly you answered this
question). But if you say so - this would certainly be a more accurate
description of it, and would be preferred for that reason alone.