Are jazz musicians one of the most arrogant?
Politically incorrect
university in Australia) hosted a jazz festival for a few days.
Surprisingly, the observationss of the University's staff and students
were that the Australian jazz artists were incredibly arrogant and
rude, to the point that the University vowed never to host another
jazz festival. I'm sure jazz artists are a nice lot, genteel,
non-racist. So it was a surprise to hear this. Was Miles David rude
and nasty?
Harry The Hipster
********************************
Miles wasn't exactly a walk in the park, but he had lots of company.
Mingus was the same way, maybe worse. When Jimmy Knepper was playing
with him they got into a hassle of some kind, and Mingus knocked out a
number of Knepper's teeth. (Not too good for your embrochure if you
play trombone.) The weird thing is that Knepper remained with the
band.
Lots of other examples. Ben Webster carried a knife and was a very
mean dude when he'd been drinking, which means most of the time. I
also recall a story about Juan Tizol ('Caravan') chasing Dizzy
Gillespie with a blade, but the details escape me ATM.
Buddy Rich was notorious for his foul temperament. At one point, he
and Buddy DeFranco (I think) got into an argument as they were driving
across Death Valley in Buddy's car. Buddy pulled over and threw
DeFranco out, left him standing by the side of the road. There's the
old joke about the musician who returned from the road, called Buddy
and was told by Mrs. Rich that Buddy had died. He made the same call
for each of the next few days till finally Mrs. Rich said 'I've told
you, he died weeks ago, why do you keep calling me when you know he's
dead', to which the caller replied 'I just like to hear you say that'.
Stan Getz had a horrible personal reputation. According to Gene Lees,
Getz was responsible for stringing out his first wife, who was Buddy
Stewart's sister, and who never did junk till she got involved with
Stan.
So rudeness may be the least part of it.
Wondering Fool
"Politically incorrect" <ihatepolitic...@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:35f56d8e.0403...@posting.google.com...
> A few years ago Charles Sturt University (not exactly a well known
> university in Australia)
Lots of arrogant jazz musicans.
But listen to Toby Kieth or some rappers or James Brown or Countey Love.
Jell many musicans are arrogant. Many people who have great talents be it
physics or napkin folding are arrogant. And jazz musicans who are good and
we know about have great talents. So it should be no suprise we can list a
lot of arrogant ones.
But while I have a friend from Australia, they are arrogant. So is my
co-worker. Maybe it's isn't the jazz thing at all!
Jed James
need "creative space"... rock groups making silly demands of theater
owners, etc...
the pendelum could be swinging the other way... the Metropolitan Opera
fired Kathleen Battle, etc...
anyone flying in for 16 hours to Sydney might well be a little
cranky... but I'll list some wonderful humans who I have been close to
for days at a time:
Dave Brubeck
Panama Francis
Henry Mancini
Burt Bacharach
Ray Conniff
Louis Bellson
Trouble starts when people start listing a group like "musicians" or
"Austrailans" or "Lutherans" and give the whole group some individual
factor...
Having said all that, the life of a road player is pretty tough and
tends to make one give pause when observing the day to day niceties.
JJ
jaykay
Just to add some balance to the foregoing...
If you're as old as I am, you may have had the opportunity to become
acquainted, however casually, with jazz players who never achieved
widespread acclaim (except among aficianados - always relatively small
in number). Commercial success was unknown to them; they scuffled to
make ends meet. I'm talking about musicians who are, in some cases,
legends today. They were not, on the whole, arrogant. They were not
spoiled by success. They did not consider themselves (nor were they
considered by others) "artistes." They were pleased to have informed
fans listening to their playing. Many were heavy drinkers, and had no
objection to these fans buying them drinks. They played requests.
As in any group of people, creative or otherwise, there were those
with nasty dispositions, but this had nothing to do with fame, or
drugs, or racial politics. I found many to be very approachable.
sum1
simply enjoying the moment, is usually pompous and often arrogant.
Since the demise of swing and the big bands, jazz has been afflicted
with an excess of players preoccupied with "making a statement." But
please don't dismiss jazz out-of-hand simply because of these weenies.
There is still a lot of good jazz out there.
Nick
This isn't restricted to jazz artists, or musicians; artists and
performers in general have a reputation for being narcissistic. We
have all heard about "huge egos in Hollywood" or singers and
guitarists with a "rock star attitude."
I have worked with musicians who were massively self-centered, and
others who were refreshingly down-to-earth and generous of spirit. The
self-centered ones tend to have more of an "I wanna be a star"
attitude than a commitment to improving their craft. In general, I
find jazz musicians (particularly straight-ahead) to be less arrogant
than usual, probably because they are more tuned into excellence on
their instruments (and the humbling challenges involved) than the idea
that they are the next Madonna or Snoop Doggy Dogg.
David Kotschessa
> simply enjoying the moment,
Should be the same thing...
sum1
> Self-conscious expression, >
> Isn't all creativity 'self conscious' during the process of creating
Not at all.
Only when lets go of the ego, when one drops the attempt to sound
"like" someone or something, when one exists only in the moment, does
the unfettered, unencumbered self emerge.
> the desire to create "art" instead of
> simply enjoying the moment>
> which has been responsible for the lives of our greatest artists
There are always exceptions, but in general I think most artists fall
flat when they try to create "art." Benny Goodman, for example, was
for a time THE greatest jazz musician on the planet before he decided
he wanted to make "serious" music and started dabbling in classical.
Straight downhill for Benny after that. Same with Coltrane. He
started out playing R&B, went on to record some great jazz with Miles
and as a leader in the 50's, but then decided he wanted to make "art"
in homage to his "creator." The results are plain to hear in his 60's
recording - self-indulgent 20 minute solos.
Marc Sabatella
> simply enjoying the moment, is usually pompous and often arrogant.
> Since the demise of swing and the big bands, jazz has been afflicted
> with an excess of players preoccupied with "making a statement."
Translation: since the 1940's, jazz has had a number of musicians you
personally don't understand or appreciate.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
sum1
I can understand what they're after, Marc. I just don't find the
music of interest. A lot of people don't. Which is why jazz tanked
as a form of popular music.
sum1
> su...@lycos.jp (sum1) wrote in message news:<544b2430.04032...@posting.google.com>...
> > Self-conscious expression, the desire to create "art" instead of
> > simply enjoying the moment, is usually pompous and often arrogant.
> > Since the demise of swing and the big bands, jazz has been afflicted
> > with an excess of players preoccupied with "making a statement." But
> > please don't dismiss jazz out-of-hand simply because of these weenies.
> > There is still a lot of good jazz out there.
>
> This isn't restricted to jazz artists, or musicians; artists and
> performers in general have a reputation for being narcissistic. We
> have all heard about "huge egos in Hollywood" or singers and
> guitarists with a "rock star attitude."
Very true. I didn't mean to imply that this kind of posing was
limited to jazz musicians.
katie k
so why in the world are you reading and posting here?
katie k
Zoot
mark, im not accustomed to seeing you zing these idiots. you o k?
Marc Sabatella
> music of interest. A lot of people don't. Which is why jazz tanked
> as a form of popular music.
Lots of people don't find bebop or any other form of jazz of any
interest, either. Doesn't in any way invalidate it for those who do
enjoy it.
Veep
expressive, or even artistic. It is about talent, plain and simple.
I get sick of poor musicianship in ANY musical genre.
Jazz players spend about as much time as doctors do when it comes to
refining their craft and unlike the human body, music changes and is
still evolving.. so good musicians continue to evolve and grow.
It is frustrating to see the hacks out there making it based on hype
and packaging..ie American Idol.
Generally, musical ability of so called professional musicians is at
an all time low, without technology and the use of Protool in the
studio, these hacks would not even be out there.
I tried booking a recording session recently and couldn't fine enough
players able to read the charts.. the quality of musician is pathetic.
sum1
It's all or nothing with you, eh, kk?
sum1
By all means, you are absolutely correct.
so...@spamlessrochester.rr.com
you run into knuckleheads in ANY genre. Posturing rock guitarists and
nose-in-the-air classical heads- BUT, by far, I'd have to say the
leaders of the K-heads come literally from the jazz school(s). Their
pompous, dismissive, jazz-uber-alles attitude is the hardest to take,
given the collaborative nature of the music's origins. It would seem
that every gig or performance is a cutting contest. Sad but true.
On 21 Mar 2004 14:44:16 -0800, dkots...@yahoo.com (David Kotschessa)
wrote:
sgo...@changethisparttohardbat.com
: I can understand what they're after, Marc. I just don't find the
: music of interest. A lot of people don't. Which is why jazz tanked
: as a form of popular music.
As does every form of music, eventually.
Scott
Steve Carras
I entirely concur with ya, sum1. I think that a lotta "jazz/swing
bands" (BE they neoswing, Sinatra wannas, or the modern day Miles
Davbis types), are DRENCHED in arrogance nd self-loving
Another great, or as we Glenn Miller/Doris Day types would say,
swell-o post well done, my friend..
Patrick Powers
Yeah, he was. But a never met a jazz musician like that in real life.
Guys like that are more likely to become bond traders.
Maybe Australia is differnet.